Talk:Helena Blavatsky

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Riddle me This

If the use of "Aryan" is not enough to prove that Blavatsky influenced Hitler (directly or indirectly), then riddle me this -- how did Hitler get the word "Aryan?"

• Aryan is the terminology of self description,that Certain Iranian minority groups,use to delineate themselves from the majority population of that particular nation state. Sochwa 18:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Aryan is the historical and majority population of Iran, not a minority.WingedEarth 11:22, 21 August 2007

• Aryan was a well known word at the time describing a racial/linguistic group having originated in the Caucausus and Iran region. Iranian and Aryan are synonymous, but in the early 19th century, linguists and comparative religion scholars from Europe began to understand the connections between Iranians with Indians and Europeans. The ancient Aryans practiced a religion which split into the later Vedas (Hindu) and Avesta (Iranian) religious authorities. The language of the ancient Aryans is not known precisely, but it's descendants include Old Persian and Sanskrit, as well as Latin, German, and Russian, from which modern European languages (including English) descended. Hitler didn't have to discover the word "Aryan" from an obscure source, because it was well known. However, many of Hitler's associates (Dietrich Eckhart, Alfred Rosenberg, etc.), including the founders of the NSDAP, were interested in occultism, and particularly Aryan-based occultism (typically via ancient Roman, Norse, Teutonic, and Iranian religion), and pretty much every Western occultist of the early 20th century was influenced by Madame Blavatsky, who was a pioneer in the field.WingedEarth 11:20, 21 August 2007

Influences and the Influenced

The swastika was not "Indian," but an ancient Aryan symbol that passed to India when the Aryans invaded the local Dravidian population. Hitler used the Swastika as part of his Aryan symbology, claiming that the Germans are an Aryan race with ancient and powerful roots, and that the German people again be elevated to that level and beyond. The Swastika was just another part of the Aryan theme that the Nazi movement revolved around, as were the other various ancient Roman, Norse, Teutonic, and Iranian symbols employed by the Nazi Party.

In the late 19th and early 20th century, the swastika was a popular symbol in occultism. They called it "The Wheel of Mithra", and it was a symbol for good luck. Mithra is an an ancient Iranian sun god (and son god) whose worship spread through the Roman Empire (imported to the West by Alexander the Great's invasion of Persia) until Mithraism became Rome's official religion in the centuries before it was replaced by Christianity. WingedEarth 11:34, 21 August 2007

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The reasons why are that the use of the swastika and colors of the Nazi flag are an undeniable link to the works of Madame Blavatsky.

• That is like comparing the Nazi use of the Swastika to the older Hindu Symbolism behind it. Attributing Blavatsky to the Swastika in the use of Nazism and Hitler, rather than in the context which she as a Buddhist and Theosophist considered it, is completely out of context and misleading to the reader. To quote another article: (Red, white, and black were the colors of the flag of the old German Empire.) The use of the swastika was associated by Nazi theorists with their conjecture of Aryan cultural descent of the German people. Following the Nordicist version of the Aryan invasion theory, the Nazis claimed that the early Aryans of India, from whose Vedic tradition the swastika sprang, were the prototypical white invaders. It was also widely believed that the Indian caste system had originated as a means to avoid racial mixing.[citation needed] The concept of Racial purity was an ideology central to Nazism though it is now considered unscientific. For Rosenberg, the Aryans of India were both a model to be imitated and a warning of the dangers of the spiritual and racial "confusion" that, he believed, arose from the close proximity of races. You can see that if anything, Hitler determined his use of the Swastika from a misunderstanding of Vedic Tradition - Not from Blavatsky. (I also added a subheading to deal with the Hodgson Report, Under Criticisms.)Misoshiru 14:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)Misoshiru

Note that the Theosophical Seal also contains a much larger Star of David! Actually both are used as ancient Indian symbols and have nothing to do with either Nazism or Judaism. Given the many available sources for the swastika, to attribute the Nazi use of it without any real evidence to Theosophy seems unfair. (The Theosophical Society in Germany was never large, and was suppressed when the Nazis came to power.)

The same goes for the race ideas. It must be recognized that in the 19th century the word Aryan was very widely used to mean what is now meant by Indo-European, including in many German books much more linked to German nationalism than Blavatsky, who wrote mainly in English, ever was. Moreover, in the 19th century "race" was often used in a more in the way we would use nationality or even culture than in a strictly biological sense. Thinking of it as a culture, the technology of the fifth root race has indeed swept across the world, for better or worse. But it should also be noted that Blavatsky did not absolutize any of the "races" -- she writes of their rise and fall, their all falling into decadence, and in one place delights in observing that one day the now-despised African races may well "form of the bulk of thte civilized nations." (Secret Doctrine II:425). One does not find such ideas in Nazi writings. For that matter, if one take the trouble to compare The Secret Doctrine with Mein Kampf and The Myth of the XX Century in any detail, one will find despite the unfortunate words race and Aryan the concept, and the outline of racial history, is quite different.

Re Judaism one also has to look at the whole picture. Her use of the Kabbalah as a philosophical mainstay is certainly a tribute. In Isis Unveiled she expresses deep sympathy for the Jews in their persecutions and wanderings, I suspect somewhat identifying with them in her own life as an oft-abused wanderer. Olcott in Old Diary leaves ch 1 tells of her repeated expressions of appreciation to an elderly Jew her gave her employment when she arrived virtually penniless in New York (a Russian noblewoman working for a New York Jew!), and says another learned Jew talk with her for hours about the Kabbalah and was amzed by her knowledge of it.

As for Satan, it needs to be understood in those isolated passages she is just expounding the Gnostic package; no doubt she sympathized withit, but it was only one metaphor she used for her worldview. -- R.E. See my book, Theosophy: A Modern Expression of the Wisdom of the Ages.

"Satan, the Serpent of Genesis, is the real creator and benefactor, the Father of Spiritual mankind (Brooke, Harvest House Publishers, 1989, pg 175-176)." I put that quote into the main bio and had it deleted several times. When I first read Madame Blavatsky's bio, it read more like a fanpage. I felt that it was only fair to present an alternative. The way it read, there was nary a negative piece of information. I never inserted name-calling into the bio. I simply referenced a quote from her writings to add to discussion.

As for my additions to the list of those influenced by Madame Blavatsky: I did add Adolf Hitler, Alfred Kinsey, Jimmy Page and Robert Plant, and deleted Van Morrison. The reasons why are that the use of the swastika and colors of the Nazi flag are an undeniable link to the works of Madame Blavatsky. I added Kinsey because Blavatsky heavily influenced Aleister Crowley's writings on sex, which in turn influenced Alfred Kinsey. Robert Plant and Jimmy Page were added because one only need look to their body of musical work to see the influences of the occult and religious relativism. I removed Van Morrison because he often pronounces his faith in God during concerts, so it seemed pointless to have Van Morrison on the list when there is no real discussion in Morrison's page on his religious beliefs.

But, even if that sentence is wrirren in the book, are you sure it is the core of the Theosophical Society? It sais nothing about satan in the Theosophical Society's page, nor does it seem to be of that importance to that that society. 84.108.57.189 21:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

--->The reason why the quote was referenced is to give the reader an idea of what influenced Blavatsky's thinking. She clearly derived many of her ideas from her belief that Satan was the superior god. Whether the Theosophical Society promotes Satan directly is not the point -- the point was to simply provide evidence of what influenced her line of thinking.

(Going to delete claims of Satan; This is most certainly not a key principle of Theosophy and will be taken in the wrong light out of context and without citation by the passing reader with no previous knowledge.

Also reference to Hitler will be deleted. 'Aryan' in Theosophical terms refers to the Fifth root race, rather than to the 'White race' as popularised by Nazism.

Response: The fact is, Helena Blavatsky popularized and glorified the Aryan race and clearly used the Swastika in Theosophy. You cannot deny that her works influenced Adolf Hitler. If you think that Hitler twisted her work than DISCUSS that rather than hide from DISCUSSION. I have read the Secret Doctrine, and was horrified by the use of the term "mud people."

Merely the fact that they had a few similar concepts is not sufficient evidence for "influence". You are free to do more research on this idea and come up with something more clear-cut however. We can say that Gandhi was influenced, because he actually stated that he went to Theosophy meetings. Those were his own words. Here you're making a lot of unfounded assumptions. The Swatiska was a very old symbol, Blavatsky didn't come up with it. Wjhonson 15:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

>>Once again, the reference to Hitler will be removed; Hitler has in no way used Theoosphical priniciples in his forming of Nazism, and the Swastika indeed was used previously by Hindu and Buddhist symbolism. Hitlers definition of 'Aryan' to be a 'Superior white race' in the vain of extremism does not hold in common the Theosophical view that the 'Ayran' fifth root race is mearly the most recent wave of man kind, and that some pure races in africa can be traced back to the 4th root race which are not Ayran. (But not prejudiced or racist or anything in the sence that Hitler propogated.)

COUNTER <<<Much of Helena Blavatsky's writing contained strong racial themes. She regularly contrasts "Aryan" with "Semitic" culture, to the detriment of the latter, asserting that Semitic (e.g. Jewish) peoples are an offshoot of Aryans who have become "degenerate in spirituality and perfected in materiality" (The Secret Doctrine, Vol.II, p.200). Blavatsy also sorted the races of the world by their relation to the "Fifth Race" (the Atlanteans) putting the Aryans on the top and describing Native Australians and Tazmanians as "semi-animal creatures." RomoCop

See [1]:

Not too long ago, a correspondent of mine asked me a question regarding Adolf Hitler and Helena Petrovna Blavatsky. The correspondent had seen a television documentary which strongly implied a connection between Blavatsky and Hitler. I too, saw the documentary in question: "The Occult History of The Third Reich", and like almost all television "documentaries" it was shallow and superficial and wrong on most counts. The television program in question is not the only source of this rumor, there are a number of books, some of them, not necessarily hostile to theosophy per se, that nevertheless echo the charge. Originally I rejected the charge entirely, but now after extensive research on the matter, I am forced to conclude that while there is no direct connection between my Cousin Yelena and Totalitarian Philosophy, there is an indirect possibility that she may have influenced certain Fascist philosophers in a direction she never intended, and there is a quite clear direct connection between The theosophical Society (as it came to be after Yelena's passing) and both contemporary totalitarian elements such as National Socialism in Germany, and the Fascist Movement in Italy as well as with continuing totalitarian and hierarchical elements in society today. My research indicates that the primary channel for the connection between National Socialism and Theosophy was Charles Webster Leadbeater and his various closest associates and followers..

- Nunh-huh 17:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The author is Alexis Dolgorukii. Who is he? — goethean ॐ 17:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

As he states in that very paragraph, Madame Blavatsky's cousin, and one who is predisposed to believe only good about her, but nonetheless is forced to concede the connection between Theosophy and National Socialism.- Nunh-huh 18:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

A.L.F.

Paul Fusco the voice and chief puppeteer of ALF had a character on the animated series on NBC named Madame Poughkeepsie,a fairly blatant parody of Madame Blavatsky,should we include him in the influenced category as well? Also many culurual references to the gypsy fortuneteller are allusions to Madame Blavatsky,especially in speaking,since she would most likely have spoken with a fairly noticeable Slavic accent.

You need to source this. See Wikipedia:Attribution, SqueakBox 22:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

First marriage

Is it three weeks or three months she was married? The paragraphs first states it's weeks, but later contradicts itself saying it's three months. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guillep2k (talk • contribs) 14:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Citations

Footnotes 10, 11, and 12 go to anonymous postings to theos-talk.com, the archive of a Theosophical email list. These are not reliable sources. They should be removed. Additionally, the linked text only make allegations of plagiarism, it doesn't provide any evidence for the allegatons in the form of quotations from Blavatsky. — goethean ॐ 19:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Madame Blavatsky in Ostend

She lived for 10 months in Ostend and wrote the biggest part of the Secret Doctrine at the hotel Villa Nova, Van Iseghemlaan 10 and in the Weststraat where she moved in August. This house was newly contructed as the Van Iseghemlaan was build in the 1870's but the Villa does not exist anymore. Then she went to Weststraat 17 (now Adolf Buylstraat, it is now the "Crêmerie Geoges"), one of the main shopping streets of Ostend. In the newspaper 'La Saison d'Ostende' whe find her name back in the list of strangers on the 15th July 1886: Blavatsky H., rent. St Petersbourg, Villa Nova. She had her revelation to finish the book at the Weststraat (and so not to die) where the doctor and the laywer came, ten days before her departure for London 1 May 1887. 213.118.76.126 12:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Rm'vd Plant and Page from "Influences"

Robert Plant has rarely, if ever, expressed any particular spiritual stance; the best you might say is that he's influenced by Norse mythology. Page, on the other hand, has stated publicly many times (and it's otherwise well-documented) that he has been inspired by Aleister Crowley; I'm not aware of him ever mentioning the Mme. as an influence. So, I removed them both from the "Influences" section. If anything, you might consider adding Jon Anderson and Yes (band) (read the lyrics of Close to the Edge and Tales from Topographic Oceans in particular). But then, that would be OR, too, I reckon. Eaglizard 04:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC) NB:Dang, I thought for sure there'd be some disagreement with this. I guess I've just been editing Alice Bailey for too long, I see edit-wars everywhere I go now. lol Eaglizard 22:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Tulpa??

Whats this about Madame Blavatsky and a tulpa she apparently created? Anyone else ever heard of this? --24.21.149.124 (talk) 09:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

"Madame" Blavatsky?

With all due respect, I'm having a difficult time understanding why "Madame" is being used in the title of this article, rather than the most common representation of her name in English, which is by far in terms of general usage some form of "Helena Blavatsky" as per WP:NCNT and WP:MOSBIO. I don't wish to offend, but Wikipedia does have specific policy relating to the use of honorific titles and at the moment, in my opinion, the title of this article is both non-neutral and in violation of policy pertaining to these matters. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 19:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I would support moving the article. — goethean ॐ 01:05, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

If anyone cares to re-visit this, I am supporting moving the article as well.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:21, June 18, 2009 (UTC)

OK, let's move it then. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Madame in French is a title given to married women and women over a certain age (i'm not sure if there is an exact age at which this takes place). Madame may also be used to address the wife of a foreign leader or dignitary. Helena Blavatsky fits both of these criteria. She began to be addressed as Madame Blavatsky after arriving in NY and starting the Theosophical Society with Colonel Olcott. She is generally known as Madame Blavatsky not Helena Blavatsky. I do not believe the title is evidence of a "lack of neutrality." Granted, other items within the body of the article do seem to fit that argument. Perhaps this subject is being clouded by the other more unbalanced portions.

Lacking in objectivity

This article misleads the reader. Compare its content to the book published by the University of California Press 1980 Ancient Wisdom Revived A History of the Theosophical Movement by Bruce F. Campbell.

Wiki readers would appreciate Mr. Campbell's objectivity that clearly contradicts much of this article.

I have noticed that the Theosophy and Rudolf Steiner/ Anthroposophy articles are edited or written to remove or downplay negative information. In the Blavatsky article, the fraud perpetrated by Blavatsky and that of her immediate followers is sadly missing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhilliard (talk • contribs) 22:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)