Talk:Adam Mickiewicz

Current vs. period place name

" of miscellaneous poetry at Vilna, which " Shouldn't the same place in one article be refered by the same name? Or maybe this Vilna refers to smth else? Well i change it. Sorry if that is a mistake.

No, this is the very same place, but we decided in the Talk:Gdansk discussion that cities should be referred to with the names they were known under at the time, not by present names. This creates confusion, but it was the only way to avoid certain users starting endless revert wars over the names ("he was born in Danzig." "No, he was born in Gdańsk" "No, you are stupid"... and so on). Halibutt 21:42, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think cities and other places, which changed names over time, should be writen as Vilnius (formerly Vilna). 80.43.94.8 18:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Decent?

I was curious where the information was found that the Mickiewicz family may be of Jewish decent. I'd like to look more into it (I'm Adam's great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter -- he bears an amazing resemblance to my grandfather!)

Thanks!

"Barbara Mickiewicz [the poet's mother], who died in 1820, also came from the petty gentry. Her maiden name was Majewska. In old Lithuania, every baptised Jew became ennobled, and there were Majewskis of Jewish origin. That must have been the reason for the rumours, repeated by some of the poet's contemporaries, that Mickiewicz's mother was a Jewess by origin. However, genealogical research makes such an assumption rather improbable." (Wiktor Weintraub, "The Poetry of Adam Mickiewicz") --Folantin 14:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Polish?

Was Adam Mickiewicz Polish or Belarusian or Lithuanian? Was Ignacy Domeyko Polish or Belarusian? Please join the discussion that is relevant to all of the famous Polish-speaking personalities who were born in 18th-19th century on the territories of what is now Belarus, and what was Great Litva back then. Talk:Ignacy Domeyko. --rydel 00:16, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1) he never wrote anything in Lithuanian, 2) The "Lithuania" of which he speaks in some of his pieces is considered as a land, not a country, 3) he himself never considered as a non-polish, for example Czesław Miłosz was also born in Lithuania of lithuanian couple, Mickiewicz not, Miłosz also wrote in polish but he always considered himself as a Lithuanian in Poland. Mickiewicz was a Pole in Lithuania. Domeyko was also a Pole

- travis

1) it's a lie: http://anthology.lms.lt/texts/11/main.html . 2) Read another his works like Konrad Valenrod and you will understan what is a Lithuania for him.

One more thing, he was from Rymwid family. It is totally LITHUANIAN surname, we even can translate it. Anyway, is irishman speaking english - englishman? Scotsman speaking english - englishman? And finally, he was born in Grand Duchy of Lithuania in nowaday Belarus. i want to quote one letter of S. Woinilowicz in 1906 written in polish, and printed in Lithuanian News, 1906 number 246(564). Anyway, sorry for terible translation, but it helps better to understand: "[...] because of bad understanding of patriotism you made Lithuania small from what our enemies are happy[...] Poles are happy that accidently they've got so much[..] and they says that everyone polish speaking in Lithuania is pole. Clearly, that our genius poets and mans of sciense for them are also poles, because lithuanians, who speak lithuanian, politely offered them to poles, only because they had takken polish language as mother tongue. It is injustice for all Lithuania and you have to recompense, because you made that separation, and all we are suffering torments. Did Mickiewicz while writing "Lithuania, my fatherland" thought he was pole? Did Kondrat(owicz) writing "Lithuania, my one's native soil, my saint land" have he been feeling being pole? And Korotynski and Kosciuszko and many other. Like swiss is swiss despide french speaking and a lot of other nation, we will never deny our nationality, despite speaking and writing polish and we are suffering torment, that our Lithuania, of the times of Vytautas so Great, was pushed to the corner by patriots, calling us poles, us who here, few miles away have a grave of Mindaugas, that is called mountain of Mindaugas, us who have ruins of Naugardukas castle, and the heritage of all Lithuanian dukes, like in Lyda like in many other places. Have only few lithuanian, speaking polish died on gibbets or because of bullets in Siberia? did they die for Poland? Was i in Siberia and lost my wealth and more that wealth because i lost my baby and agonizing all life? Does anyone care? We died for Lithuania, because WE ARE LITHUANIANS?[...]" --egisz , 24 may, 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 11:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

"Anyway, is irishman speaking english - englishman? Scotsman speaking english - englishman?" - You see, the funny thing is - Mickiewicz often referred to himself as a Pole and talked of Poland as his fatherland. And now: Would any single Scotsman referred to himself as being an Englishman?

.................

MICKIEWICZ was Polish , there is no doubt about it - maybe he knew some Lithuanian songs or verses but so what? Lithuania for him was a geograhpical area, not an ethnic one. Polish people frequently refer to it as Litwa, a place where millions of Poles lived for centuries. He was born in the land of Lithuania ( like the Andalusia in Spain or Lombardia in Italy ) but his whole family and his heart was Polish and he was a Polsh patriot. Lithuanians have no literature in their own language and thus they claim other nations poets as theirs. The problem is they don't accept the fact that millions of Poles settled in the geographical land of Lithuania when it was united with the Polish Crown - so did the Mickiewicz family but it always remained Polish in language and culture

"Lithuanians have no literature in their own language" - A pure chauvinistic nonsense made up by unhappy Polish. Do you actually believe Lithuanians don't have writers who spoke Lithuanian as their mother tongue?

................ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.33.19.146 (talk) 17:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is full of Polish nationalists. They attack even Lithuanian wikipedia. Lithuania isn't a place where millions of Poles lived for centuries. The true is that Statute of Lithuania that was confirmed by King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania forbidden to settle for foreigners in Lithuania. Thoose "millions of Poles" are nothing more but self-polonised(when they had to choose and when understanding of word "nation" changed) or compulsary polonised(during interwar period when Vilnius was occupied) Lithuanians or Byelorussians. Thats clear from them surnames. Only people who has never read Mickiewicz can say that he wrote about Lithuania as about geographical area. He wrote about dukes, "old capital of Lithuanians" and etc.Of course, Poles can think that he created the name Gražina accidentally.. If you give me your contacts, i can show his family tree, where you will see he was from Lithuanian Rymwid family. Rymwid is even Lithuanian surname. His poems are full of love to Lithuania, its history. Actually, except of nationalists lot of Polish people agree Mickiewicz was more Lithuanian. The sad true that wikipedia is full of Polish nationalists. -- --egisz, 26 July 2009, —Preceding undated comment added 14:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC).

Of course, wikipedia is full of Polish nationalists as well as full of Lithuanian nationalists. 1) Vilnius was occupied by Poland just like Klaipėda by Lithuania. 2) There was the settlement action in Lithuania and Belarus by Polish from Mazovia and Poles who lived there was Polish descent but most of gentry. 3) Mickiewicz felt himself as a member of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Polish, Lithuanian or Belarussian nationality did not mean the same in that period and today. 4) In my opinion Mickiewicz belongs to legacy of the three nations and he was Polish poet because he wrote in Polish, that's all. Polshauvinist--84.10.185.230 (talk) 19:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Brückner

There is a link in this article to the Austrian composer Anton Bruckner, rather, I suspect that it should be to the great Polish literary historian and philologist Aleksander Brückner on whom there is no article as yet in the Wikipedia!! I am a descendant of Adam Mickiewicz and I am from Częstochowa, Poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.153.33.164 (talk) 02:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Machiavelli Quotation

Would someone please include the translation of the Machiavelli quotation?

Done. Chelman 15:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

City naming

1. Before reverting to Polish names, can you explain why not to Russian for instance? In the period of his life any of these currently Lithuanian cities were part of Russia. 2. Why are you using "Warszawa" instead of English Warsaw?

Fashion to learn the Polish Language

When was learning Polish ever fashionable? --EuropracBHIT 23:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC).

Polish was the lingua franca of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and was spoken by many cultivated Lithuanians through the Interbellum. logologist|Talk 18:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

GDL rather than Commonwealth =

Mickiwicz was referring to Grand Duchy of Lithuania as an ojczyzna, not the whole Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.--Lokyz 09:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup. And..? //Halibutt 13:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

maybe it should be mentioned in text, because text thgere is a bit misleading:)--Lokyz 14:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Regina Grol

My reference is a paper by Regina Grol, a staff member of the State University of New York[1]. Further, the paper[2] is on a web site run by the university. The fact that the paper had been published in the Bulletin of the Polish Arts Club of Buffalo is irrelevant to the fact that this reference has the authority of the university. It says "there is some basis for the allegation of his mother's Jewishness" and "the Jewish origin of his mother is quite plausible". Clearly, this source does not regard the matter as gossip, but as something likely although not proved beyond doubt.

The Polish Government has a POV to deny Mickiewicz' Jewish background [3]; Wikipedia, in the interests of NPOV, should present all of the facts.--20.138.246.89 14:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There is also this reference: [4] "Among very well known persons, with at least partially Jewish roots who have made great contributions to Polish culture, are Adam Mickiewicz, Julian Tuwim and Adam Michnik."--20.138.246.89 15:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, [5] talks about Mickiewicz's relationship to Judaism and Jewish culture, not anything about his background or religion, and one person's paper hinting that the whole government of another nation is "secretly denying" a Polish national hero's Jewish ancestry is basically like accusing a whole nation's government of antisemitism. Sorry but wikipedia is not a haven for conspiracy theories, even if they are written by someone more than just a hobbyist. Wikipedia WP:NOT guidelines does state that in the interest of NPOV we have to list every rumor or viewpoint printed on the internet, and "wikipedia is not censored" does not refer to the willful lack of citations to numerous viewpoints on the internet, but rather the "censorship" of profanity, pornography, etc. How exactly are we going to present this? "Mentor from the State University of New York Regina Grol states Adam Mickiewicz's mother may have come from a Jewish convert family"? No. Rumors have no place here and there are thousands of rumors on who could be Jewish. It's apparently a fad now. I've had this exact same discussion on List of Iberian Jews. LaGrange 02:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This is farcical. I am not relying on the University of Michigan ref to establish his Jewishness; I have produced two other good sources for that. Still, as LaGrange refuses to believe that the State University of New York is a reliable source, let's try again:

• "Mickiewicz's mother, descended from a converted Frankist family": Encyclopaedia Judaica, art. Mickiewicz, Adam
• "Mickiewicz's Frankist origins were well-known to the Warsaw Jewish community as early as 1838 (according to evidence in the AZDJ of that year, p. 362). The parents of the poet's wife also came from Frankist families.": Encyclopaedia Judaica, art. Frank, Jacob, and the Frankists--20.138.246.89 10:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure we can report it for what it is - a rumor, but nothing more than that. LaGrange 23:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I have since added it to the nationality section. LaGrange 23:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

His mother

Reverted. There are good refs that his mother was a descendant of Frankist Jews. No refs have been offered to support the contention that this is just a rumour without foundation.--Newport 16:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"Barbara Mickiewicz [the poet's mother], who died in 1820, also came from the petty gentry. Her maiden name was Majewska. In old Lithuania, every baptised Jew became ennobled, and there were Majewskis of Jewish origin. That must have been the reason for the rumours, repeated by some of the poet's contemporaries, that Mickiewicz's mother was a Jewess by origin. However, genealogical research makes such an assumption rather improbable." (Wiktor Weintraub, "The Poetry of Adam Mickiewicz")

What is that?

The article does not state categorically that his mother was Jewish; it says that she may have been. Good sources have been produced to support that contention. Where good sources are in conflict, we are obliged by WP:V and WP:NPOV to report both of them.--Brownlee 08:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well further reading reveals we are also obliged by WP:NPOV to not give undue weight.

"We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views."

Therefore, because one "reputable" place gives us one viewpoint on the issue of who Mickiewicz's mother was, we do not report it with equal prominence to a more highly held one: that being that it his mother was from Polish nobility with a questionable background - nothing more nothing less. The minority viewpoints are promptly placed in the article as well. LaGrange 16:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly right. So we need to say that his mother may have been Jewish and not dismiss it entirely as misinformed rumour and speculation just because one source can be found that says so.--20.138.246.89 17:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Please, we are talking about Mickiewicz here - a man that became a legend yet during his life. It's normal that there were many rumours about him. Some ascribed to him alleged children - the number of his love affairs is still a matter of speculation - aristocrats claimed him a prince, and Jews claimed him a Jew (both claims weren't based on any real evidence). Even his death is uncertain. Some say that it was cholera, others that he was poisoned - both suppositions are disputed. Communists claimed him a socialist and erased all his connections with religion, while earlier all his connections with Towianski's sect were concealed by Poles. There were even various ideas about the date and place of his birth (i.e. in an inn on Christmas to alike his history to that of Jesus). Really, I heard rumours that Elvis is still alive!

The internet source by Regina Grol supporting the idea that Mickiewicz was a Jew is not a scholar historical work, only a summary of some other sources. There are again some rumours mentioned, no doubt to meet the interest of the local readers (i.e. an affair with an American feminist). The idea that Mickiewicz might have been a Jew came from his mother's name. But a name alone, and a one quite popular in Poland, is definitely not a proof good enough to built any assumption on it. Moreover it was later proved that the family of Mickiewicz's mother had nothing to do with Frankists. And if that wasn't enough his grand mother - the mother of his mother - was Orzeszkówna before she married Majewski. So the whole idea based solely on the sound of Mickiewicz's mother's maiden name is good only for trivia.

It's true that Mickiewicz was in Constantinople with Armand Levy whose task was to organise a Jewish legion (the plan was to make a sabotage among Jewish soldiers in Russian army), but earlier Mickiewicz tried to create a Cossack legion. Does it make him Ukrainian?

The first reference where author actually checked Mickiewicz's genealogy tree was "Adam Mickiewicz" by Konrad Górski, PWN, Warszawa, 1989. If there is another reference arguing with this one, or basing Mickiewicz's Jewish heritage on some solid evidence, I have nothing against adding it to the article.--SylwiaS | talk 03:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, there's some information already added stating that some people speculate his mother may have been Jewish. If you can find some information which either disproves it, or presents his genealogy, that could be edited too - changed to something like "Among Jews, he was seen as of a Jewish mother. Among Belarusians, he was a Belarusian native..." etc. Something more apropos to how many ethnicities/nationalities would like to claim him etc. etc.. LaGrange 04:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, its relevant to note that "Majewski" is the 29th most common surname in Poland today [6]. If, as the quotations above and on that page indicate, his mothers surname was the core of this rumor, this proves it isn't any typical Jewish surname. LaGrange 04:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopaedia Judaica, a standard reference, is unequivocal that his mother was Jewish. It is of course legitimate to note that other sources disagree; it is not legitimate to delete the reference.--20.138.246.89 11:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi 20.138.246.89! (btw perhaps you would consider registering and picking up a name we could address you with?) I'm not surprised that Encyclopaedia Judaica has his mother as Jewish, or many other references for reasons stated above. And I agree with LaGrange that it should be noted in the article that some sources claim him a Jew. However it doesn't make him Jewish, and the way it's stated in the article right now is rather confusing. Could you type in the exact quotation from the Encyclopaedia? Perhaps we might come up with an NPOV statement instead of flaming a revert war?--SylwiaS | talk 13:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is wrong with the way it is now anyway? ". Also, a rumor among Polish exiles was that Mickiewicz's mother was a descendent of a converted Frankist Jewish family, however genealogical research suggests the claim is "improbable" albeit possible." Everything in that sentence is verifiable. LaGrange 21:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What is now, and what you quoted is perfectly OK with me. I earlier referred to a revert by 20.138.246.89 which I later reverted back having no response from him.--SylwiaS | talk 22:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Mibelz has added a reference to the Encyclopaedia Judaica, together with a citation of the relevant text, further on in the article. It is inconsistent to delete this reference then ask for it. I suggest a form of words along the lines of "Some sources say that his mother was Jewish, the descendant of Fankists (EJ ref) but others dismiss this as a rumour (other source)." This seems totally NPOV. If it is acceptable to SylwiaS, I shall make the edit.--Brownlee 09:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but when I click the reference (the little number one) nothing happens. It doesn't direct anywhere. I'm fine with this, but I'd like to ask you to make the changes to the other version, because every time you revert the names of places change as well. I assume it wasn't intentionally. Also, please can we keep it to the Nationality section only? If you notice, there is no other reference to his nationality in the biography section. If we add one there, there will be soon a new revert war about Polish, Latin, Belorussian, Tatar etc.--SylwiaS | talk 10:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The little number works in this version. It links to the bottom where Mibelz's references were and have been for the last few days, so it completely baffles me why people are still reverting. People can adjust the sentence however tbey want, but need to make sure what is said is quotable from the sources listed. LaGrange 15:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

No serious author supports the story to discuss it on sevral lines in the text. Encyclopaedia Judaica team apparently didn't study the problem, only copied the story - from where? Maybe simply the EJ is biased?

Mickiewicz (also father's family) is Ruthenian (Byelorus), Polonized. Majewska was either Polish or Tatar. Lithuanian means from Grand Dutchy, not ethnic. He might have had a Jewish ancestor. Xx236 11:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember reading this in the poem. Please give line references

Reading Pan Tadeusz is a basis to discuss it. Ignorance isn't a basis to remove someone's text. An example:

• Która krzyczała, Sędzię objąwszy rękami,
• Jako dziecko od żydów kłute igiełkami.

Book VIII - Zajazd, 667-670

Xx236 11:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Gallery of Mickiewicz monuments

For this section of the article, does anyone have a photo of the Mickiewicz bust found in the park at Truskavets, Ukraine (before World War II, Truskawiec, Poland)? This monument is remarkable for being the only one that shows Mickiewicz as a young man. logologist|Talk 08:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC) http://www.allegro.pl/item164926247_truskawiec_adam_mickiewicz_pomnik_1932.html

A specific symptom of Polish anti-Semitism

Polish nationalists create lists of Polish Jews (sometimes false) which include, first of all, politicians and social activists. However, there is ONE specific exception to this general principle: prominent Polish cultural figures (poets, writers, artists, musicians, etc.) who were Jewish (or Jewish ancestry), such as Adam Mickiewicz, Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński, Stanisław Lem, Teodor Parnicki, Tadeusz Kantor, Jan Kiepura, Henryk Wieniawski, and many others. Polish “true patriots” do not agree with these facts, so they permanently remove them from the Category: Polish Jews.

Dr Mibelz 15:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

By the mid-16th century 80% of the world's Jews lived in Poland. There were approximately 3 000 000 Jews in Poland before WWII. And there were no tv, no online poker, nothing to do in the evening except one thing... Logically speaking every Pole must have jewish ancestors, just like every Jew from Poland must have polish ancestors. MC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.228.232.42 (talk) 12:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

WTF?? Mickiewicz didn't have jewish roots, if he had he wouldn't be EVER that popular in XIXcentury Poland. Baczyński was noble, have you ever seen any noble jews? Kantor, Lem, Kiepura, omg... troll

Please consider notifying Poland related Wikipedia Notice board (talk), this should solve the problem, if any. BTW, does the category "Polish nationalists" include User:Zickzack (a native German, as he declares) who deletes the cats in Lem's article (and with whom you discussed the issue)? Please refrain from making useless generalizations :-) --Beaumont (@) 16:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if this is a serious comment or not, but either way I'd suggest checking out a great short story by Jacek Dukaj - 'Przyjaciel prawdy' which discusses those issues.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Mickiewicz didn't have Jewish roots. The subject used to be discussed here. Xx236 12:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The subject is still discussed further up the page. There are reliable sources that say that his mother was Jewish, so it would be wrong to say categorically that that is not true. And can we please have a source for the assertion that his mother was Tatar.--20.138.246.89 15:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography: http://www.nobility.by/bibliography/m/index.shtml Where:

• Rybczonek S. Przodkowie Adama Mickiewicza po kądzieli // Blok-Notes Muzeum Literatury im. Adama Mickiewicza. 1999. Nr 12/13.

He is probably the expert in genealogy: http://belarus-magazine.by/pl.php?subaction=showfull&id=1136117182&archive=1141385827&start_from=&ucat=4&do=archives Xx236 14:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

ADAM MICKIEWICZ was a POLE!!!!!

I think that we need to take a little step back.Look up some history books and read that Poland and Lithuania were THE SAME COUNTRY until Russians grabbed it after second world war. Vilnius was not called Vilna , but WILNO and it contained 80% born Poles as did LWOW , another crib of Polish citizens and aristicracy.There were some groups of Lithuanians nationalisits that hated Poland and they still exist.So stupid to deny so much that was done in times of common culture. Adam Mickiewicz was a Pole and there is no doubt about it.He wrote and spoke Polish , since it was an official language of Poland. I know that other nations would like to call him their poet,but for God's sake , they cannot even read what he wrote.It is like a stupid discussion about Chopin. He was Polish and a fact that he wrote in France did not ever make him French. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.15.100 (talk) 01:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes: a note

AFAIK it hasn't been "established with reasonable certainty that Mickiewicz's mother was a descendent of a converted Frankist Jewish family". It's a possibility mentioned by some sources, but no more than that. WP:NPOV means we should represent it as such. Czeslaw Milosz, who was referenced as being in favour of this idea, was in fact against it: "The mother’s low social status – her father was a land steward – argues against a Frankist origin. The Frankists were usually of the nobility and therefore socially superior to the common gentry." (Land of Ulro p.116). He was also somewhat sceptical of the claims of the Encyclopedia Judaica: "The Encyclopedia Judaica assumes, perhaps rashly so, that Mickiewicz’s mother was of Jewish ancestry..." (loc. cit.). Wiktor Weintraub, in the quotation I re-added, writes: "Her (Barbara Mickiewicz) maiden name was Majewska. In old Lithuania, every baptised Jew became ennobled, and there were Majewskis of Jewish origin. That must have been the reason for the rumours, repeated by some of the poet's contemporaries, that Mickiewicz's mother was a Jewess by origin. However, genealogical research makes such an assumption rather improbable." Weintraub (whose Polish WP is here [7]) was a Harvard professor of Slavic Studies who wrote one of the definitive works on Mickiewicz in English, the very book I cited. (FWIW he was also Jewish). --Folantin (talk) 10:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I think a little bit of rephrasing is in order here. Perhaps something like "Historian Meir Balaban believed he had established with reasonable certainty that Mickiewicz's mother was of Frankist/Jewish ancestry. More recent scholars, including Wiktor Weintraub and Czesław Miłosz, have been skeptical of this claim."<cites 2 and 3> Quoting Balaban, Miłosz and Weintraub -- in footnotes, not to clutter the text -- I think could be helpful. If Balaban has not been translated into English, perhaps someone not involved in the dispute could do so? Antandrus (talk) 16:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"...believed he had established with reasonable certainty..." That sounds too speculative and "psychological". It's too much like editorialising. "More recent scholars, including Wiktor Weintraub and Czesław Miłosz, have been skeptical of this claim..." Neither of them mention Balaban by name. My version would be: ""Some sources claim that Mickiewicz's mother was a descendant of a converted Frankist Jewish family [refs to such sources, inc. Balaban]. Other sources are more sceptical [refs to such sources]". I believe that is NPOV. --Folantin (talk) 16:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, I'd also like to see some specific page references with extracts from the sources. I've done so with Weintraub and Milosz. --Folantin (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I removed this statement: "His mother came from a converted Jewish Frankist family." since the Czesław Miłosz reference doesn't support it. I wouldn't object to "According to historian Meir Balaban, writing in the History of the Frankist Movement (title in Polish?), his mother came from a converted Jewish Frankist family." (with cite to Balaban only on this line) Trying to find a compromise position here -- clearly Balaban has credentials, but other scholars are skeptical of the claim, so we have to craft a way to present both, and it's reasonable to say something about the mother in that paragraph. Anyway, out for now. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 17:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

My position already is a "compromise". It presents both views. It does not claim a hypothesis is accepted fact. My version says "it's a possibility, but maybe not" and "some say, others don't". That represents the scholarly consensus per WP:NPOV. The speculation about his ethnicity should be left to the "Nationality" section. --Folantin (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I also want specific page references to Balaban with the relevant extracts (per verifiability). As we have seen, Milosz has been misused as a source. Plus I want the original research and editorialising removed now. --Folantin (talk) 18:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 09:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the same User:Galassi has inserted similar allegations into the "Chopin" article regarding the alleged Frankist descent of Chopin's mother and of Countess Skarbek, based on a dubious 1938 source (whose volume and page numbers he does not give) and on a Russian-language internet newspaper. Nihil novi (talk) 00:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute...I thought Chopin was French !:)) Or that's what the last edit-warrior on that page told us... Moreschi (talk) (debate) 09:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Panie Nihil Novi, Kaskad is not an internet paper, but a web version of a regular paper periodical, that reproduces an article by a professional historian. I, of course, deeply sympathize with those who aresensitive about ethnic purity of national symbols['-). Galassi (talk) 00:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I have stated elsewhere that "I don't care whether Chopin, Mickiewicz or [Countess] Skarbek were descended from Jews, Maoris or Eskimos. But I do care about the truth." Can you not find a source concerning Countess Skarbek's alleged Jewish descent, other than a Russian newspaper, print or electronic? Nihil novi (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I must now expand my question to include Chopin and Mickiewicz. As I have demonstrated on the "Chopin" discussion page, it appears that Galassi has never laid eyes on Mateusz Mieses's 1938 Polish-language book but was relying on Boris Klein's article in Cascade Russian Newspaper, "published in Baltimore since 1995."

I propose that Galassi's assertions concerning Chopin, Countess Skarbek and Mickiewicz based on Boris Klein's article be deleted as inadequately documented. Nihil novi (talk) 01:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Order of Sections

I suspect these aren't according to the Manual of Style; this would benefit from further editing. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Examples of POV

Beside Konrad Wallenrod and Pan Tadeusz, noteworthy is the long poem Grażyna

A fine vigorous Oriental piece is Farys. Very good too are the odes to Youth and to the historian Joachim Lelewel

--79.163.48.3 (talk) 13:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)