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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by FuriousJorge (talk | contribs) at 09:45, 27 October 2009 (→‎Explaining the Unexplained Removal of Content). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Pbneutral

No section to reorganize into

As far as I know, this article does not have a "Criticism of..." subarticle. It would be pretty difficult to put the criticism section into a subarticle that doesn't exist. Treybien 15:26 23 October 2008 (UTC)

STOP WHITEWASHING: re-added criticism, as per note requesting "neglected viewpoints"

Someone or some people, for years, have been editing this page to eliminate all information in any way negative of Sean Hannity. While I am happy that they have been able to keep their jobs in this economy, it does not do reality justice.

How is it possible that CNN anchor Campbell Brown has more criticism in her article than Fox News opinion show host Sean Hannity?

The criticism section will be deleted again by the Hannity staffer(s), and I will put it back in.

We've been through this, the community agreed it should be in there, and it needs to be in there. Let's not rehash this.

It is disgusting and offensive that someone feels entitled to whitewash this page whenever people stop looking.

Enough.FuriousJorge (talk) 06:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"While I am happy that they have been able to keep their jobs in this economy, it does not do reality justice." Are you implying that the economy is Sean Hannity's fault? Gtbob12 (talk) 09:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Proving my point, the section was removed in classic "shoot first ask questions later fashion." There was no discussion or respect for differing viewpoints.

FuriousJorge (talk) 06:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I only glanced through your edits, as your edit summary of Re-added criticism, much to chagrin of hannity staffers didn't do wonders for Ol' Good Faithful. Your sources also were suspect as you used Newshounds, a blog, and TheNation, hardly good sources for a WP:BLP. Soxwon (talk) 06:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Luckily for us there is no need to go over this again. It was discussed in Nov-Jan and the community came to a consensus. If you have a problem with a source, say something.

Don't shoot first and ask questions later. One of the founding principals of wikipedia is that no one person should control the dissemination of information.

Take it out as often as you want, and I will put it back in. As I just said, in the end it will stay as a matter of precedence. FuriousJorge (talk) 06:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One of the founding principals of wikipedia is that no one person should control the dissemination of information. followed immediately by Take it out as often as you want, and I will put it back in. Oh the irony... Soxwon (talk) 06:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's ironic is that I'm putting it back in on behalf of the community that fought SOME CRITICISM on this page not long ago.

The fact that you are so determined to keep this page CRITICISM FREE speaks volumes, so I don't have to say anything else.FuriousJorge (talk) 06:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I always find it interesting when an editor is absent for 8 months and comes in, not having participated in any of the discussions that have gone on for those 8 months and makes 5 edits in 37 minutes, including 3 reverts in less that 20 mins. Niteshift36 (talk) 06:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Community? I haven't seen you here and you claim consensus, the discussions I viewed in November were far from "unanimous" or the "clear consensus" you tout. I've re-evaluated your sources and saw the LA Times and NYT and don't have any problems with them being re-added. Soxwon (talk) 06:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some criticism DOES belong here. However, as has been pointed out before, some of what you are re-adding, spends a lot of time talking about someone else, not Hannity. Also, some of it belongs more appropriately in the article about his show. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Bottom line is this: I don't need to ask permission to add to this page, but I posted here anyway. By the same token, you are within your right to just take out what I put in, and not give a reason... if that's the type of person you want to be.

I've been reverted three times, so I'm putting it back in and reporting the problem if it comes out again. I have no problem letting a neutral point of view decide.FuriousJorge (talk) 07:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, consensus, even when it exists, is not a reasonable excuse to violate 3RR or start edit wars. Second, I gave you reasons: poor sourcing and non-notable material. Soxwon (talk) 07:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Niteshift36, you yourself agreed that this was appropriate when it went in the first time. Now that no one besides me is looking, and you have a sympathetic reverter, you are trying to start this up all over again.
I put a 100% legit criticism section in with references, and it was taken out with no discussion within five minutes. Spin it however you want, but clearly we know who is right here.FuriousJorge (talk) 07:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which thing? You re-added more than one thing. You readded Hal Turner and Andy Martin. Also, as pointed out, sources like newshounds.us isn't a RS. It's a blog. Then you say I am trying to start it all up again? Um, I didn't start this. I came in after you'd already done 3 reverts. I didn't start anything my furious friend. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Which thing? The criticism section. Any criticism. Once again, we've been over this. You were forced to agree then that there was no basis to remove all criticism from this page, and I don't see why now is any different.
If you had a problem with one source, then take out what you deem is incorrect and we can discuss it.
I didn't say you started anything. I said you want to start this up again now that you have only sympathetic observers.
And how can you accuse me of violating 3RR when I am the original editor? I'm the one being reverted.
Will the Ministry of Information please inform us what, if any, criticism is allowed on this page? This way, when the inevitable transpires, and you are forced to acknowledge that the section is legit (again), we don't have to go too far back in the logs the next time it's whitewashed.FuriousJorge (talk) 07:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You act like Soxwon and I conspired to be here at the same time, just in case you came back after 8 months to edit this article. And you did add the info....then have reverted it 3 times after that. The next revert in 24 hours will be a violation. I'll ignore your copious sarcasm. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can I assume that by avoiding the question you are implying that you have waffled back to your "no criticism section, no criticism period" position from '08?

FuriousJorge (talk) 03:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Did you totally miss the reply above where I said, pretty clearly, "Some criticism DOES belong here"? I guess you did or you wouldn't keep asking the same question and making allegations about ducking a question that I laready answered. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't miss it, but that's not an answer. Isn't it obvious what needs to happen now? Put the section back in, take out whatever you have a problem with. If you're wish to volunteer yourself as the arbitrator I'm fine with that if you in turn pretend to not be biased.FuriousJorge (talk) 08:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • It is an answer. It was also an answer when I said "some of what you are re-adding, spends a lot of time talking about someone else, not Hannity. Also, some of it belongs more appropriately in the article about his show."I don't think either the Turner or Martin bits belong in the bio. I believe they more appropriately belong in the articles about the show. The Turner thing isn't really that big of a deal and the Martin thing was shown once, on Hannity's show. Hannity had no part in writing or producing it. He simply aired it.....wait for it....on the show. Is that simple enough? Niteshift36 (talk) 08:17, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clear enough now. You are saying exactly what you said in October. How did that turn out? Luckily for us, it's moot. In our dispute resolution process the reverter said he/she didn't mean to take out the part about his precedent setting "fauxumentary", so it goes back in. Just looking for the latest pre-censorship version. FuriousJorge (talk) 08:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)I restored the section per the discussion at editor requests noticeboard. Please now imporve the section by discussion, removing unreferenced or poorly referenced parts, rewriting parts, by adding references, and by appropriate use of tags. Thanks. Verbal chat 08:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • An hour of discussion, that the involved parties weren't even informed of (per WP:CIVIL) doesn't settle the issue. Nor does it give you the mandate to swoop in and force the info back into the article. While Soxwon might not have meant to remove it, I did. And I don't know why this can't actually be discussed instead of "settled" right this minute. Further, going to that discussion does not absolve you from the 3RR Jorge. Niteshift36 (talk) 09:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'll take out newshounds reference and look for additional sources tomorrow for that first blurb.FuriousJorge (talk) 08:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nitshift, why can't we discuss while the information is in there. It should not have been removed to begin with, today or in June. On top of that, it isn't anything new. The community already decided this EXACT information SHOULD be in the article. Just because it's in the chat history, don't pretend we haven been over this EXACT debate already, and that it wasn't already "settled" the first time. FuriousJorge (talk) 09:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community never decided it should be in the article. And I'll ask you the opposite question, why can't we discuss it without it being there? In fact, let me ask a better question, what harm is there in having the info in the show articles instead of the bio, like I've suggested all along? Niteshift36 (talk) 09:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As to your first point: The community did decide the information was pertinent to THIS article after this SAME debate, which you already participated in. As evidence, please note that the information was in the article for 6 months before all criticism of Mr. Hannity was removed in June with no reason given.
As to why it should be in there now: because I put it back in. It should not have been removed to begin with, and there is already a note on the page REQUESTING alternate viewpoints. Would you say that we have alternate viewpoints? Also, see my first point.FuriousJorge (talk) 09:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Who puts the information in is irrelevant, has no sway in why it should be included.— Dædαlus Contribs 09:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. Niteshift, although you are correct that consensus can change, and although I must say I would support distributing sourced criticism throughout the article so to mitigate POV concerns, at a guess you will not find consensus for the removal of information properly cited with reliable sources. I don't doubt your good faith toward editing this article, but I can certainly see how some of your fellow editors may view this as a bit of whitewashing. Please reconsider distributing the criticism through the article-- I support you on your efforts to eliminate the criticism section per se, but let's try working toward a compromise. Thanks! -- JeffBillman (talk) 10:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jeff, perhaps you'd like to answer my question. Why shouldn't these two items go in the show articles? They are absolutely related to the show and I don't dispute that in the least. What I have an issue with is including it in the bio because these additions spend asmuch time talking about the people involved etc as about Hannity, who is the subject of this article. There is no whitewash or cover up. Nobody is trying to keep the info out of wikipedia. I simply contend it belongs in a different article. How is that a whitewash? Nor is anyone disputing that information as unsourced.....I'm solely contending that it makes more sense to put it in the show articles and not the bio. Why is that the wrong way to go? Niteshift36 (talk) 10:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are we to go through every article about a journalist and place all criticism in the article of the show where the controversy occurred? We should start a page about "Hannity in the Mornigns", or whatever his local radio show was where the turner controversy occurred? Of course the information is notable enough to go on his bio, just read the NYT and LAT articles. They use words like "new low", "first time" and "fauxumentary". Also, the name of the show is "Hannity's America". It's not like he is just the host of the show, he was THE journalist. His name is in the title. Clearly HE is responsible for the content. Doesn't it mean anything to call yourself a journalist anymore?
If there were already too many criticisms in the article I might agree, but there are NONE. It almost seems like you want to hide the information.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that the information should ALSO be in the articles about the show.FuriousJorge (talk) 10:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Niteshift, I don't see it as an either/or scenario. It can go in the show articles for all I care. Frankly, I don't have those articles on my radar anyway. But let me turn that around: Why shouldn't these two items be in the biography? Ultimately, it is Hannity who bears the criticism for what occurs on his programs. As for putting the Turner controversy on an article about the WABC show, that's a non-starter. Do you really think such an article could (or should) stand on its own notability? Or would you agree that info about the WABC show belongs in this article anyway? -- JeffBillman (talk) 00:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, now I contend you understood my joviality perfectly, but would rather change the subject right about now.FuriousJorge (talk) 10:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So how many more people who don't live on this discussion page need to weigh in before we repeat history and reinsert the content againFuriousJorge (talk) 11:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So one more and we'll call it then?FuriousJorge (talk) 11:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Holy cow, batman! Can't we all just grow up a little? George is right that his original contribution should not have been deleted, since the page was obviously vandalized in june to remove all criticism of Sean Hannity. Maybe the bit about the "chagrin of Hannity staffers" in the note wasn't tacful, but that should only be offensive to two people: Hannity Staffers, and whoever vandalized the page in June. The contribution is well referenced, and clearly pertininent to THIS article. 67.84.209.35 (talk) 14:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)Confirmed to be a sockpuppet of FuriousJorge. This template must be substituted. (Note: This account was confirmed at SPI as FuriourJorge) [1][reply]

Um, no. You're obviously an SPA, and it will be found out soon who you really are. Besides that, Nite and others were correct to remove the section. BLP policy is very clear, you cannot have poorly sourced criticisms in an article.— Dædαlus Contribs 18:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I find it hard to believe that this article was "vandalized" back in June, and was not caught until Jorge happened to come along. More likely, the article was brought into compliance with WP:BLP back in June. I also note that in almost a year, this talk page and article are the only ones edited by FuriousJorge. Crockspot (talk) 01:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, believe it. Look for yourself. All negative information that was fought for in October was removed in June. No reason was given. This was information that was thoroughly discussed a few months prior. The only place that is not vandalism is apparently right here. I'm sure many people noticed, but the ones who did, this page's "sponsors", were quite glad to see it go.
As to me only editing one page in a year, it's simply not true. Many of us who post infrequently forget our user names and passwords and need to recreate accounts. 99% of my posts are non-political and anonymous. This account exists so that I can make edits to farce pages that are locked down, like this one. I almost forgot the user name when I noticed the egregious bias.

FuriousJorge (talk) 03:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Q: When is the Bergen Record, LA Times, and NYT a poor source?
A: When they say anything negative about my Hannity.
Q: When is someone SPA?
A: See question 1.

FuriousJorge (talk) 20:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're quite rude calling me an SPA. I've been here far longer than you have, and I have more experience here. That IP above is obviously an SPA, as they have no prior edits to the one made here. I suggest you go read up on what an SPA is before you throw around baseless accusations.— Dædαlus Contribs 22:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


On what planet did I accuse you of anything? As far as I can tell YOU are the one who accused ME of being SPA. Isn't there a pending investigation? Any promising leads, detective? LOL.
I like the new tactic: when you don't like the message slander the messenger and quickly change the subject. Now if nobody but the "criticism police" who patrol this page and are all over the discussion section object, I think it's time to put the criticism back in.
Don't feel bad. It was a good try. It's just how the cycle goes. You guys allow the page to get whitewashed, then you prevent anyone from putting in any criticism, then, after a popular uprising against you, all you have to do is wait till no one is looking and repeat the cycle... again.FuriousJorge (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I never called you the SPA, I called you the sock master, there's a difference. As to the evidence, WP:DUCK is plently reason to assume. Currently you're the only editor here asking for inclusion, then, when the concept of voting comes up, out pops an account that had never contributed before, just to take your side. It is clearly an SPA. That is clearly a sock, who's sock, I don't know, but I have been dealing with socks for awhile now, so I know what I'm talking about. As to the whitewashing. You have already been told that two of the sources used there are blogs and therefore not reliable. When a BLP is involved, information from sources which are unreliable should never be included.— Dædαlus Contribs 01:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop misrepresenting the content. All blogs were removed in the final version that Niteshift last reverted last night. The sources include the New York Times, The LA Times, and even The Bergan Record from hannity's pre-syndication days. That is some QUALITY content, which was vandalized in June.
Also, please stop misrepresenting the number of people who have either reverted the content besides myself, or asked that it be included in the article. The only people dissenting are the you three content police who exist only to prevent criticism from being inserted into the article. We should be able to have this conversation without misrepresentation of the facts.
I apologize, but you and you cohorts can no longer control reality in the article, or in the discussion.
A greater number of individuals, here and on the dispute page, have asked that the information be put back in where it belongs.
So since your problem was the blogs, and now they are gone, you must certainly be all for the reinsertion of the blog-free version, correct?FuriousJorge (talk) 02:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vote fraud

Is being discussed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/FuriousJorge.

Ha. Godspeed in you investigation, and good luck keeping the page scrubbed nice and clean (again). I won't ask for an apology when you're done. I think it's pretty clear which way the majority swings (again).FuriousJorge (talk) 20:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • SPI confirmed that you were 67.84.209.35 and even the clerk suspects meatpuppetry. Oddly, meatpuppetry was the outcome of the only SPI I've ever filed....over something that happened on this page. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You can't simply say that it is incorrect. You cannot prove a negative. For all we know, that's you on your mobile phone, or in an internet cafe, or even your friend, in a case of meat puppetry. The fact of the matter is that your IP and that IP are too close in area to be a coincidence. Both of the IPs geolocate to the -exact- same spot. Not only that, they're on the same /21 range. You simply cannot disregard, not dispute, this evidence.— Dædαlus Contribs 01:10, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're exactly right, in that I cannot proce a negative. As such, I'm just going to reiterate that I did not post on my own behalf as another account, nor did I recruit someone to post on my behalf. We can agree to disagree, and I can respect and understand your position. Thanks. FuriousJorge (talk) 04:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Picture.... (read on)

The picture is of low quality, so I propose we take it down until we find a new and better one.----------------136.183.240.185 (talk) 19:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, no. The picture is fine.— Dædαlus Contribs 20:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It actualy is an awful picture technicaly, but pretty good in that he is looking directly at the camera and is smiling. It is a decent potrait, but grainy and low quality...and yes low resolution....at least this much is low quality, but it's free and it's here. Why take it down untill a new one is found. Find a new one and then replace it....but it has to be free.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unexplained removal of content

With this change, an editor removed content that has been in the article for months - since at least December 2008. I undid this unexplained removal of content here. My undoing of that inappropriate and unexplained edit has now itself been undone twice, without any supporting reason offered. If you don't think the section is appropriately included, raise the issue here. Don't simply foment an edit war by repeatedly and without comment restoring an inappropriate edit. Thank you. JohnInDC (talk) 21:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is insufficient. JohnInDC (talk) 21:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The FAIR, like MMFA,is notorious for nitpicking non-notable events. Need to something bigger to confirm this accusation. Soxwon (talk) 21:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That particular piece of information has been in the article for months, surviving a lot of edits in what is a pretty contentious article. I would like to hear what other editors have to say. In addition I object to your having removed this established content three times without explanation. Wholly apart from the apparent violation of Wikipedia policy, I think experienced editors owe one another a bit more consideration. JohnInDC (talk) 21:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, FAIR was not the only source cited for the material. I think removal of this content, particularly given the prior "whitewash" discussion, is inappropriate and it should remain. JohnInDC (talk) 21:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Media Matters and FAIR are generally accepted on Wikipedia as reliable sources within their respective fields. Please don't confuse the meaning of "reliable" as defined in policy. The content looks sufficiently sourced and properly presented. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, they are good for fact-checking, not WP:DUE. While they may be factually accurate, they represent a fringe viewpoint. This would be the equivalent of citing Free Republic for the Olbermann article. Soxwon (talk) 02:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the KCBS incident is relevant and belongs in the article. It was his first (or one of his first) shows and his remarks got him fired from it. That's fairly significant in the terms of a biography, particularly when he went on to become the #2 radio talk host in the country. It's not like he got fired from McDonalds for burning a batch of fries. As for Media Matters....they are completely biased. Even their own website admits that they only monitor conservative shows. In other words, they could give a hoot about any "misinformation" on a liberal show. That makes them biased, along with the fact that not just a few of their efforts at refuting things are pretty much POV. They should not be used. I haven't looked at FAIR in depth enough to opine on their reliability. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If Media Matters is unreliable, it can't be demonstrated by the fact that they only monitor and report on "conservative" shows. It's a logical non sequitur. It's just what they focus on, like a marine biologist focuses on sea life. It suggests they bring a point of view to their efforts, sure, but you still need to demonstrate POV and bias in practice. JohnInDC (talk) 11:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, look through WP:RS/N, they are good to use if their are other MSM sources used already (NYT, LAT, USA Today etc.), but by themselves they don't represent WP:DUE. Soxwon (talk) 12:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let me try to clear up what I meant. MM is a POV organization. They are funded solely to refute the POV of their opposite segment. When it comes to matters of fact, they can be a RS, when it comes to interpretation or opinion, they are not neutral and using them as a source requires great care in terms of POV and UNDUE. Perhaps an example or two would be appropriate. Example of them as RS: Hannity apparently hadn't read all the particulars of the "Cash for Clunkers" of quite incorrectly stated on the air that "..all we've got to do is ... go to a local junkyard, all you've got to do is tow it to your house. And you're going to get $4,500.”. MM responded by showing that this was incorrect, using verifiable facts. I have no issue with the use of MM as a source for that. The opposite, less obvious example would be when MM "refuted" Hannity saying that Obama in his remarks to a joint session of Congress on health care reform said that insurance executives are "bad people". They used semantics to refute his point. In that case, I would dispute their neutrality as POV pushing. In the case of Hannity in particular, we should be extremely careful since they gave him their psuedo-award of "Misinformer of the Year", which shows that there is a very real possibility of a bias against him. My question would be this: If anything was really that relevant, wouldn't there be more neutral sources also covering it that we could cite? If something is covered only by MM, is it likely going to be something relevant enough to be an "event" in his life? Niteshift36 (talk) 14:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Much clearer and sensible explanation, thanks Nite. I am not entirely sure I agree with you but I follow your reasoning and appreciate the distinctions you're making. JohnInDC (talk) 14:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thought a consensus was reached to include a section on Sean's political views, including those on waterboarding. I reviewed some of the talk page archives and apparently Niteshift36's argument against this inclusion is his continued accusation that numerous editors who came to said consensus are just sock puppets who stop by every once in a while to stir things up then disappear. Well, Niteshift, I'm not a sock puppet. Believe it or not some of us have better things to do than to sit constantly on one article and repeatedly vandalize it. Every time I happen to come back here, the page is again vandalized to include only information on the subject of the article that is positive. I have submitted this article for semi-protection.Stargnoc (talk) 00:16, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • First off, my sole arguement hasn't been sockpuppetry. Second, isn't it an incredibly amazing coincidence that your last contribution was on Aug 30, 2009. Furious Georges last edit was also on Aug. 30, 2009. Then he came back and accused "vandals" of removing the content from this talk page on his page: [2]. Then you come in and make the same accusation [3]. After which, you remove your accusation, finding out you made the same error "he" made. What do you suppose the odds of that happening are? 2 accounts, going inactive for the same time period, coming back, making the same incorrect statement? Niteshift36 (talk) 00:31, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • That makes sense, because if I were this guy's sockpuppet I obviously wouldn't have learned the first time I made the mistake. Sorry bud, I'm not a sockpuppet.Stargnoc (talk) 00:38, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • So you expect us to believe that neither of you had the common sense to look at the history first, instead choosing to make the same baseless allegation and that the fact that both of you disappeared on the same date, only to return and reach the same wrong conclusion within 48 hours of each other is just an odd coincidence? LOL. Ok friend, whatever. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't know anything about the posting habits of this other user. I do know that you're mistaken to accuse me. Please end the accusations of sockpuppetry at those who disagree with you. Let's stick to the issues.Stargnoc (talk) 00:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, I provided you links to the diff, so you can familiarize yourself with it. Further, I've just pointed out an incredible coincidence. I haven't really accused you. I dislike the ridiculously cumbersome SPI complaint process, although if this silliness keeps up, I may have to go through it anyway. And, BTW, I did a SPI related to this topic befor and it showed I was correct, they were working in concert. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I just reviewed FuriousJorge's talk page and I see he is blocked but I'm certainly not convinced you were shown to be correct. They had no evidence against the poor schmuck yet it appears he's still blocked. I guess if you've gotten one person blocked unjustly you can do it again.Stargnoc (talk) 01:04, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Do facts mean anything to you? First, I didn't make the SPI complaint on him. Second, the one I refer to making was another user. Third, there was enough evidence for the administrators at SPI to make the determination and for an uninvolved admin to reject his appeal. Fouth, he isn't still blocked. He was blocked for 1 week (at the exact same time you mysteriously disappeared). I'm done wasting time on this with you. Perhaps if you stop talking about it yourself, you'll chalk up fewer errors. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:09, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If facts were your life, you would have actually had some before you went to at least 3 different locations and incorrectly accused me of getting Jorge blocked when it wasn't me. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Proposal to add views / reception section

I would like to see a section detailing Sean Hannity's political and personal views as these are what have made him famous. He has expressed them on his show, in his books, and in interviews. Possibly also a section on reception of his views. There has been discussion on some of these issues before as you can see in the archives but no resolution was made.Stargnoc (talk) 04:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • What specific ones are you talking about? As I've said before, it appears more logical to me to concentrate on the issues he's made a long term thing about (abortion, fiscal conservatism etc) than trying to make a big deal over a one time comment. That would appear less like POV pushing and more like balanced article writing. And Stargnoc, please learn to sign your freakin posts! Niteshift36 (talk) 02:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I can quote from one archive: "Of course the article is not politically imbalanced. It contains hardly information about the person, and reads like a TV guide blurb, telling viewers what shows he is involved with and when they are on. His positions on immigration, gay marriage, liberals in general (he repeatedly has referred to liberalism as a "disease"), abortion, gay marriage, homosexuals being allowed around children, gay adoption, global warming, torture, demand-side economic stimulus, defense spending, etc... are all controversial, and they are the single largest driving force for why Hannity is a notable person. If you don't want to call this "controversy", the wikipedia-preferred term is "reception", but in any case, this is the banner that is typically used. If your position is that there are no notable controversies involving Sean Hannity, please state so in plain language so we can debate that point." I know I've spelled out several topics before as well. There's been plenty of discussion in the archives, just no action - or if there was action it was reverted.Stargnoc (talk) 05:04, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Niteshift36, are you saying you believe that there aren't any relevant criticisms, views, and events that aren't covered in this article, and that the article is properly balanced? Is that your position? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:12, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've said, multiple times, that this article should have some criticisms that aren't included. You know I've said it. Why would you even ask such a stilted question, particularly because I've said some does belong here and in light of my response above? Niteshift36 (talk) 03:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You've also said (some months ago) that you would work on some examples of what you believe is "acceptable" criticism/rounded viewpoints. Since then, I haven't seen any proposals for balanced content from you, but I've seen plenty of mudslinging and rabid attacks on people who seem to want those sorts of things included. I'm just wondering if you're actually interested in including those things, or if you're just paying lip service without actual intent. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:17, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really? Have you seen that? Would you care to point out where you've seen "plenty of it"? Because I have had a total of 2 edits on this article in over a month and one of those was to remove a wikilink. I hadn't written anything on the talk page in over 2 weeks. As I said earlier, unlike the psuedo-controversy about waterboarding, where there was a 2 week period and a few sources to comb through, abortion (which was what I chose to go after first), covers over a decade and hundreds upon hundreds of sources. A since you seem to follow my every move, you should have probably noted a drop in my editing as real life issues have cut my time here. But don't try to throw the "lip service" stone. You just know it'll end up back-firing on you. Just like your ridiculous question above. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:54, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The pattern extends far beyond the last two weeks (or even two months). If you consult the record, you'll note that several editors raised ownership and agenda servicing concerns with regards to your campaign to excise any sort of negative or controversial content about Mr. Hannity. That discussion concluded with an editor asking you for some examples of critical or unflattering content that you wouldn't object to, and you saying you would write some proposed text to help balance the article. Here we are two months later, and you've made no proposals at all (though you have continued with the POV campaign, it seems). I think the point here (and in the section below) is that the pattern seems to be giving lip service to the "I want balance too", promising to add content later, and simply waiting until it's archived/forgotten. Lather, rinse, repeat. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 16:36, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • And none of them have ever answered the substantial questions. Now you want to go back to this "ownership" BS again. And I've addressed the question about the part I was working on writing. I've addressed it numerous times. I might have even had time this weekend if people quit asking the same question over and over and ignoring the answer when it's given.

Talk page archiving too frequent

A 30 day archive is too frequent for this talk page so I removed it for now. It's as if all the discussion over the past few months doesn't exist and certainly very little has been done to improve the article. Niteshift36, you said you were going to include some information on abortion?Stargnoc (talk) 05:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, I did. And I've addressed that twice today and once earlier. Please stop asking the same question in multiple locations. It's annoying to answer it over and over. Ask it once, get your answer. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Don't be disruptive by removing the archival because you think it's too frequent. I've reverted you, and changed the date to 60 days. Two months should be plenty of time.— Dædαlus Contribs 06:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Please don't accuse me of being disruptive, I wasn't trying to be.97.95.36.89 (talk) 12:51, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Stargnoc (talk) 12:56, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My goal with this edit was merely to allow us to establish an appropriate interval for archiving the talk page. Is 30 days too short? Currently, yes. Is 60 days enough? Maybe, maybe not. Let's be sure to discuss it again when the time comes.Stargnoc (talk) 13:31, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you read? He already said he changed it to 60 days. So what is there to discuss? I personally don't care if it is 30 days because I know how to go look at the archives before running around, making allegations of vandalism and cover-up. Apparently you and FuriousJorge aren't familiar with the concept. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Niteshift, please rein it in a bit. There is no need for the tone here, as the question of when to archive is valid. I agree that 30 days is too frequent, but I fear that the current setting of 60 days may be too infrequent as it may allow disputes to escalate. We need a clear timetable for discussion on this article, as consensus-building appears to be difficult for any number of reasons. -- JeffBillman (talk) 19:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • With all due respect Jeff, I have every right to start getting irritated. I had NOTHING to do with the archiving. I have this "editor" running around, repeating a false claim in multiple locations, starting a WQA over crap that is over a month old and in general, going out of his way to irritate me in particular. The "editor" got his undies in a bunch when I pointed out a very, very unlikely "coincidence", but then went on to admit that he does in fact use two different accounts, but he refuses to disclose the other one and expects us to just "take his word for it" that it never gets used in this article. But somehow, I'm the only one who needs to "rein it in"? Whatever. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:35, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I realize you have nothing to do with the archiving. I understand it's done by User:MiszaBot I-- a bot-- according to the schedule that we set by consensus. That brings us to this current discussion; which at face value, assuming nothing (no, not even good faith, as I am beginning to be of the mind that Miguel Ángel Ruiz's principle that we should not make assumptions is a better model for Wikipedia than assuming good faith... but never mind that for now) appears to be a question of how frequently we direct the bot to archive the talk page. Secondary to that question is Stargnoc's belief that there was an open question on information you had offered. Because that is secondary to the issue of archiving, quite honestly I couldn't care less at the moment what Stargnoc, you, or anyone else thinks of the abortion issue vis a vis Hannity. I certainly don't care what FuriousJorge thinks of it, as to my knowledge (again, assuming nothing) FuriousJorge has not chimed in on the matter at hand. Where that issue is concerned, I agree that there is nothing to discuss; certainly nothing that would spark my interest at the moment. But with archiving, there is a worthwhile issue to discuss IMO, and frankly it need not be a contentious issue.

Simply put, there is no cause for anyone to take personal offense, and no cause for anyone to give it. Let's all rein it in. We're talking about how a bot does its job, and I don't think we're going to hurt the bot's feelings by offering that it does it too quickly or too slowly. So that said, do we go back to 30 days? Do we remain with 60? Or maybe we should try 45? I would like to suggest the latter. My reasoning is that I'm happy with 30 days, but because I am of the belief that leaving discussions open for 60 days would lead to a greater amount of pointless debate, and because others are apparently unsatisfied with 30, perhaps we can compromise at 45. Cheers! -- JeffBillman (talk) 08:29, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reception workspace

After months of lip service and inaction, we're going to move forward with balancing this article. I've created a Reception workspace where we can all collaborate. I suggest the first step is for us to all go out and find reliable sources that cover this topic, and then we use those to formulate balanced text covering the critical reception and notable controversies. Your assistance is cordially requested. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 16:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Let me be the first to say I think that's a good idea. I'll try to post over some of the abortion stuff I have been working on in the next couple of days. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good idea. We can pull in material from the archives and I think Niteshift36 has one or more of Sean Hannity's books so perhaps there is material there which can be drawn from. Again I'd like to see information on Sean Hannity's political views mainly, because those are what made him relevant enough to have a Wikipedia page. A separate section on reception could also be created or just noted where applicable in the views section, but I'm not as concerned about that. Most important to me is to have a section identifying Sean's notable views and actions which have garnered media attention OR have relevance to the political climate.Stargnoc (talk) 18:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really? What makes you think that? I actually don't own either one of his books (he's only written 2). Never have. Borrowed them from the library when I read them. Keep making those assumptions....maybe you'll get one right eventually. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:37, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What exactly do we post in this workspace? We can we list suggested topics without already having found sources to explain them, can't we? To use as a guide on what information should be researched? This isn't clear in the workspace description.Stargnoc (talk) 18:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pleased to see such an enthusiastic response. I just kinda setup some default headers; I think a discussion area type of header is a good idea too. I would ask that we leave the bottom sections for actual proposed text (ie a final section(s) we can copy/paste into main). I'm going to be out of town over the next week, so please add sections and discussions as needed. One point of order -- let's get the sources first, and then surmise them into text (as opposed to letting our beliefs dictate the text, and then going to find sources that support that ideology -- cart before horse and all that). Cheers! //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FYI I'm giving up on this article because it's not worth the effort to try to make it right.Stargnoc (talk) 04:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification: If at some point the obstacles in the way of successfully editing the article are removed I may consider coming back to the article, sure.Stargnoc (talk) 10:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Translation: If his arbcom against me is successful, he will come back and make it the way he wants it. Niteshift36 (talk) 11:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Explaining the Unexplained Removal of Content

I can explain, but for some reason even my contributions to the talk page have been censored of late, so I don't know how long this section will last.

This removal was the work of a user by the name of John_Asfukzenski. (please follow link)

This is the same user that vandalized this page in June, which brought me back to this page, and which I have been unable to revert. (For those who don’t know, that information was added only after a protracted battle in ’08, which I took part in.)

This user has a history of, and has been blocked multiple times for, removing content critical of right-wing political figures from articles. In other words he is a well-known vandal.

This person took out all negative information about Sean Hannity without discussion, and (6/15) made some very questionable yet similar decisions in other edits around that time.

For starters, on 6/11 he removed all references to the Holocaust Museums shooter's relationship with The Free Republic from that article, as well as all references to criticism of The Free Republics for racism against President Obama. All that information has been restored since.

On the same day he created a much needed "Reaction" section in the article about the United States Holocaust Memorial_Museum shooting. The only problem with it was that it consisted entirely of an apologetic distancing of a white supremacist group for their association with the shooter. For some reason subsequent editors thought that was perhaps not the most appropriate blurb for the article's Reaction Section, and out it went.

Shortly after this, the same user thought it was unfair that Bill O'Reilley was being criticized after George Tiller's shooting for historically referring to him "Tiller The Baby Killer" on his show. So, he removed all criticism of O'Reilley relating to this matter. What's interesting about this post is not that the information was restored (it was), but that his argument was that it should be included only in the article about his show, not in the article itself. A familiar argument that some have been making here…

This person found time amid that spree to visit this page and remove anything critical of Sean Hannity. This was criticism that had been debated and inserted in October, including, not surprisingly, all mention of Hannity's Hannity's common knowledge association with Neo-Nazi Hal Turner. Nobody stopped him, and no one seemed to notice, but when I tried to reinsert criticism of Hannity (in the middle of the night) it was removed within five minutes, again with no discussion.

Months later the vandal reappeared and removed the last criticism from this page. JohnInDC reverted the information. His revert met the exact same fate as mine, but due to his more diplomatic and mature handling of the matter he was able to preserve the one remaining fact critical of Mr. Hannity in this article.

As you can see from that user's page his/her behavior seems to fit a pattern (I would call it anti-Israel, anti-minority, anti-Obama POV pushing). This behavior continued unchecked for months. He/she has been caught and blocked since I originally added this information to the talk page. It's probably not a coincidence.

Moreover I see that his repeated vandalisms are always reversed (this page being the exception), both before and especially after I originally noted this pattern on behavior in this talk page.

If you check the history of the talk page, you will see that I’d included a section very similar to this not long ago. The MizaBot archived the content, and I saw fit to reinsert it in order to put the previous section in context. This information was subsequently removed, once again, from the talk page.

I hope that my fellow editors will graciously allow my contributions to the talk page to stand this time. FuriousJorge (talk) 10:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On an only slightly unrelated note, I also want to say that I have nothing to do with the other editor who has since vandalized this talk page multiple times. This person replaced everything with "Sean Hannity is a great American..." repeatedly. On the surface it may seem obvious that this wouldn't have been me, but curiously the last time this person vandalized the page he/she only removed the section prior to this one wherein I was 'found guilty' of meatpuppeting. I have no idea why he/she would vandalize this page in such a blatantly 'pro-hannity' way, but only take out information critical of me in the last go round. The only explanation is that this person was not actually ‘pro-hannity’, and was instead masquerading as someone who is ‘anti-hannity’.
This person's IP may or may not be similar to mine, but if that was an attempt to liberal-POVpush on my behalf, as it appears it was, I want to denounce it before there is another 'investigation'. There is no excuse for that. Clearly there are forces at work here that are beyond my comprehension, and I frankly no longer have the motivation to investigate. Just piecing this together took hours.
Now, because I have been 'found guilty' of 'meatpuppetry' (that's recruiting someone to post on my behalf for those who don't know) I will continue to recuse myself from sharing my opinions on this article.
I do continue to deny that I either posted on my own behalf from a different account, or that I recruited anyone to post on my behalf.
That said I would like to apologize to my fellow editors for any comments they may have felt were personal attacks against them. Looking back I see that I was a bit rude (I wasn't the only one, but still), and I've learned from this experience and will not repeat the same mistake. I've learned that feeling righteous is no excuse to be uncivil. It's not that I'm a staunch Liberal, it's just that my perception of censorship got me standing on my soapbox, and I might have gotten a little carried away.

FuriousJorge (talk) 06:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You have just as much right to post your opinions on improving the article as anyone else. I see no reason for you to be reverted. Soxwon (talk) 17:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the stormfront repsonse was never removed. John Asfukzenski (talk) 02:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sox, and thanks as well to the person that deleted my talk contib last time, for permitting me to post in here again.

John, I stand corrected. My apologies. If it were appropriate to go back and correcet the mistake in my comments I would do it. (It isn't, right?) Also, I wanted to ask you, is this serious, or are you somehow being ironic?FuriousJorge (talk) 07:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have a better question: What difference does it make? I'm really getting sick and tired of people who see a picture or a userbox on a user page and hold it out like some holy grail of "truth", as "proof" of a bias. Deal with the edits he makes here and leave his freakin user space out of it. Whether I agree with him or not is immaterial. At least doesn't hide who he is. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:51, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You don't understand: there was a picture of Hitler there when I linked to it. Now it redirects to his talk. I guess you may have a point, anyway. I was just so aghast to see his that image. It featured Hittler and included a quote about the occasional necessity of 'sabotage', which, in the context of his much debated and controversial 'contributions' to this article, and his history, I thought might be relevant to this discussion. Maybe it wasn't though. I'll grant you that. In fairness to me though, I don't think I ever mentioned your talk page, and I certainly never made an issue out of it. FuriousJorge (talk) 09:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Education

I've forgotten my log in name because i usually let others who i hope know more than me edit. but 1 thing caught my attention. i reviewed the previous discussion about how the colleges Mr. Hannity had attended be listed, and i felt the very first poster had the right idea. "Attended, did not Graduate" rather than currently "attended". this is because while technically correct, attended can also be used to describe a graduate, his page clearly relates this information but his quick bio is somewhat misleading. attended is a misleading term, it can both me graduated OR Did not graduate. this is an issue that would affect all pages on wikipedia. although successful graduation can be easily distinguished, the term for non-graduate are is not itself as precise. so in Mr. Hannity's case it should say "Attended, did not Graduate". while if hypothetically lets say he later transferred credits to another college and then finished his degree, having "attended" for one and "graduated" by another lower on the list would be essentially what i feel would be most clear and accurate. i prefer to leave the editing to others, but i wanted to address this issue. thanks (i hope this isnt a big deal, its an appropriate change.)(76.84.72.207 (talk) 09:43, 25 October 2009 (UTC))[reply]

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