User talk:Kevin

You recently deleted an article I submitted. So I created this article at: User:JLRedperson/HP_BTO_Software

I added more Wikipedia internal links, cited outside references and worked to improve the article based on your feedback. I also asked for comments and suggestions from the editors in the WikiProject computing. I received only one suggestion, to change the bulleted lists into prose, and so I made those changes.

Full disclosure: I work for HP, however, I am a journalist by academic background and wrote this article as a neutral, objective submission. The idea being to state the name of the product and what it does—with no hype or advertising. This is similar to Microsoft’s page that lists Microsoft_Office_Excel as "a spreadsheet-application written and distributed by Microsoft for Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X. It features calculation, graphing tools, pivot tables and a macro programming language called VBA (Visual Basic for Applications)."

The goal of creating this article to add to the quality and quantity of information about computing technology on Wikipedia. Because HP bought several enterprise software companies during the past four years, this article attempts to help classify the portfolio to aid Wikipedia readers. Also after publication of this article, we will be able to direct Wikipedia users to this article from the pages that currently exist but are no longer accurate such as Opsware. This will add to the body of knowledge of the types of ways that software can help companies better manage their data centers, similar to the IBM pages that describe Tivoli and WebSphere software for example. (See: IBM_Tivoli_Identity_Manager and WebSphere)

I welcome all comments and suggestions for improvement. Although I have edited approximately 9 articles on Wikipedia, I am still new at this. Therefore, any insights are appreciated.

I look forward to your feedback on this new article. JLRedperson (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is suitable, but I suggest moving it to mainspace and see how it goes. Let me know if you need help doing that. Kevin (talk) 02:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

HAP article

Thanks. Thank G-D for someone with a brain. Unfortunately when I started that mess I wasn't using mine.^Д-р_{СДжП,ДС} 16:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of ZaRP!

Actually, I would like to thank you, instead of rant about why you have deleted it, because after reading in my user talk page Speedy deletion nomination of ZaRP! I would have asked an admin to delete it. You have saved the trouble of running around Wikipedia to find an admin currently online. HCV= 04:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by HellcatV (talk • contribs)

Ray Joseph Cormier AfD

Hello Kevin, From reading your close, it seemed that you agreed that this article met our guidelines (WP:N in this case) for article inclusion. Given that the !vote count was quite close and the delete !votes provided very little in the way of policy-based arguments for deletion, I don't see the consensus for deletion (I'd say no consensus leaning quite hard for keeping, though given I was one of the !vote keep folks, I may have a biased perspective). Any chance you'll take another look at it and reconsider that close? Thanks, Hobit (talk) 06:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Here's the link.

To the extent that this was no consensus, I would be very concerned about closing as delete, in light of other recent discussions. But I do think it's worth remembering that only three of the keep votes came from people who weren't canvassed (and one of those was "weak keep"). I was surprised not to see this as part of the rationale. regards, Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I made a deliberate choice to ignore any canvassing that had gone on, and base my close on the strength of the arguments alone. The arguments revolved around whether the several media mentions added up to notability. As the notability guidelines are just that, and have no bright line to delineate the notable from the non-notable, I looked at why those on each side felt that the same guideline supported their opinion. Quite simply, the delete arguments were stronger, in that they explained why they felt that the several media mentions did not add up to notability. Kevin (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• When another user explained the process for deletion, i.e. an uninvolved Administrator reviewing all pertinent information, I was confident while there was only one more !vote to delete than to keep, WP:N would prevail and the article would be kept to be cleaned up and improved. There are many more independent reliable news sources in existence than was shown in the version just deleted. Being the subject, it was not COI on my part to want the article to be drawn on the references available, and unfortunately, in my zeal to exhort others to do it, I may have rubbed some people the wrong way. The problem has been all the references are pre-internet and not available online for free. Please have a look here, In particular, I ask you pay close attention to the big difference in header between #1 & #2, the independent, reliable news source in Canada´s Capital chose on their own to use.

User_talk:Steve_Smith#Deleting_material_from_talk_pages Peace DoDaCanaDa (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. Kevin (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Kevin, I am really surprised by your brief comment. I will try to be clearer and more exact in my words. I asked you to consider the difference between references #1 & #2 in the news story headers chosen by the major, independent reliable news source in Canada´s Capital one week apart, as they bare witness to my activity then in a ¨news¨ report.

The editor who nominated this AfD edited it in the past to be as NN as possible when there were many more references than were in the article you deleted. It was absolutely beyond the pale of any understanding of what NPOV means. This is my last comment on this matter unless I am invited to respond to anything.

Revision as of 16:28, 18 February 2009 Raymond Joseph Cormier

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Raymond Joseph Cormier is a self-proclaimed Prophet in Canada. He has run for a seat in the Canadian House of Commons as an independent, and once ran for the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. Contents [hide] * 1 Arrests * 2 Pilgrimages * 3 Politics * 4 References Arrests He was arrested on a number of occasions in the late 1970s for disturbing the peace in Downtown Ottawa. He was convicted, and later breached his probation and was sent to jail.[1][2][3][4][5] On the first day of televised debate in the House of Commons, security guards removed Cormier from the gallery.[6][7][8] In 1985, on Remembrance Day, Cormier was arrested and fined $250 for causing a disturbance. [9][10][11] Pilgrimages In 1981, Cormier hitchhiked from Ottawa to Whitehorse, Yukon. Four newspapers and Maclean's wrote stories about his journey.[12][13][14][15][16] In 1986 he hitchhiked East to Quebec and the Maritimes.[17][18][19][20] Politics Cormier ran in the 1984 federal election. He received 71 votes out of 40,000 as an independent in Ottawa Centre.[21] He ran again in Ottawa Centre as an independent in the 1997 federal election. He received 91 votes out of 50,000.[22][23][24][25] References 1. ^ "Preacher Arrested on Mall" Ottawa Citizen 3 September 1977 2. ^ Dave Rogers, "Second police warning for God's emissary", Ottawa Citizen, 10 September 1977, A2. 3. ^ "Emissary from God undaunted", Ottawa Citizen, 22 October 1977, pg 2. 4. ^ "The self-styled prophet hauled off Mall again", Ottawa Citizen, 3 November 1977, pg5. 5. ^ "Mall 'prophet' jailed again", Ottawa Citizen, 5 November 1977, pg 5. 6. ^ "Prophet hauled out of Commons gallery", Ottawa Citizen, 18 October 1977, pg 3. 7. ^ "Gagged protester gets heave-ho", Ottawa Today, 18 October 1977. 8. ^ "Masked protester returns", The Ottawa Citizen, July 15, 1978 9. ^ Jane Taber "'Prophet' fined for shouting at Nov. 11 service", Ottawa Citizen, 3 January 1986 10. ^ "Anti-war speech costs man $250", Globe and Mail, 3 January 1986 11. ^ "Cormier condamné", Le Droit, 3 January 1986 12. ^ Steve St. Laurent. "Visiting 'prophet' no average preacher", Calgary Herald, 18 July 1981, A11. 13. ^ Cathy Lord "Visions compelled search for God", Edmonton Journal, 25 July 1981,G13. 14. ^ Leslie Cole "Self-proclaimed prophet: Showmanship not his style", Whitehorse Star, 26 August 1981, pg 3 15. ^ Nicholas Read "'Divine gifts' inspire ex-executive to tramp the land with a message", Vancouver Sun, 3 October 1981 16. ^ Maclean's Magazine, pg 40 31 August 1981, People Section. 17. ^ Richard Caron "Raymond Cormier sillonne le pays pour precher Dieu", Le Soliel, 28 July 1986 18. ^ Elizabeth Hanton "Prophet sees Canada as the new Israel", The Halifax Daily News, 11 August 1986 19. ^ Sylvia Reddom "Shares Faith With Canadians - Religion More Than Going To Church Says Travelling Born Again Christian", The Charlottetown Guardian, 20 August 1986 20. ^ Emily Dyckson "Wandering prophet shares his faith", The Weekend (St. John's), 30 August 1986 21. ^ History of Federal Ridings since 1867 22. ^ Kernaghan R. Webb Focus Magazine September1984 'RJC: Cormier makes people nervous. Especially authorities.' 23. ^ Elections Canada On-Line | General Information 24. ^ Kathleen Patterson "Prophet Chooses Park for Vigil" The Kansas City Times pg. 3A 13 September 1976 25. ^ Robert W. Butler "Prophet Plans Appeal of Conviction" The Kansas City Times 2 November 1976

Peace DoDaCanaDa (talk) 21:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. that's a bit clearer. When an AfD is closed the job of the closing admin is not to assess the merits of the article, but to determine the outcome of the deletion debate. It is the job of those participating in the debate to weigh up whether those articles you mention show notability. In this case the debate centered around a somewhat subjective guideline of notability, and therefore the arguments explaining why a subject is or is not notable are much stronger than an argument that simply states that the subject is or is not notable. I didn't see any indication that those making arguments had ignored the media coverage, but that they had seen and assessed that coverage. Kevin (talk) 22:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Kevin, please bear with me, but your comment is such a loud invitation for me to reply. I apologize for copy and paste, but I feel this partial comment from Hobit´s Talk should be part of this record.

What I find most disturbing about the process is four delete opinions were based on this comment

• Weak Delete - The number of references to reliable sources almost caused me to make a kneejerk "keep" argument. Normally I would say that they would clinch this as an establishment of notability. But I looked into the long discussion on the talk page, and the last two AfDs. Particularly compelling was something that KillerChihuahua said in the first deletion discussion:

I think its borderline, and if the subject weren't causing such issues, I'd probably let it slide. Wikipedia is not paper. But self-declared prophet who did what, ran for office and lost? Uh, can we say Gastrich? Not notable, seriously. His sources are small newspapers from the seventies for the most part; we can look for someone local to the papers to go read the microfiche but I'm not seeing notability here, more like sourced Local Character. Good for them. My home town had a local character too, and I have not (and will not) write a WP article on him. If you take a look, the "news" seems to be mostly Caused a fuss at the local courthouse and got arrested for Disorderly Conduct kind of thing. This is NOT notability. -- Atama頭 21:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The very next comment below that is this, which no one bothered to read, evidently.

• This is why I put considerable weight in the variety of references. He's garnered media coverage from every corner of Canada, which I think makes him somewhat more than a local character, and these references have come from several different years, making him not a flash in the pan. As for what he did - well, he ran for office and lost, caused a ruckus at a variety of events, and travelled across the country acting like a prophet. Most importantly, though, he got coverage from multiple reliable third party sources while doing so. Also, your characterization of the sources as "small newspapers" is off—the majority of them are major dailies in markets of well over one million. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

My error on the sources; thank you for your AGF. I'm still thinking that he's more "color" than "substance" but clearly what we need here is more input from other editors. This is a borderline case at best, one I would not like to close. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:36, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

As I know how to read, four delete opinions were based on an erroneous statement in the 1st place. Where is the fairness in the process? Did the closing Administrator even look at that? Peace DoDaCanaDa (talk) 22:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

• Kevin, things are not alway apparent at first sight. On reviewing your words, ¨the arguments explaining why a subject is or is not notable are much stronger than an argument that simply states that the subject is or is not notable¨ If it is true that with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged, again, on second glance, your comment above is a very loud invitation to comment. By that standard and bar you set, the delete !votes of User:Ironholds and User:Frmatt must be discounted. Peace DoDaCanaDa (talk) 01:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I stand by my close of that AfD, and I do not intend to dissect each and every argument. Kevin (talk) 02:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

• Hi Kevin, I've listed this at DrV as I think the close should have been "no consensus". Hobit (talk) 02:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

OK. Kevin (talk) 03:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleted

I saw that you deleted the article that I had nominated for AfD, but there was a slight problem. Cyber Security virus still exists, because the article was moved after AfD was proposed. So the redirect was what was actually deleted, not the article itself. Could you go ahead and delete the article? Thanks. Netalarmtalk 00:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for picking that up. Kevin (talk) 00:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Revert

Is there a reason for this revert? Tim Song (talk) 02:51, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, my fingers are too fat for my tiny phone. Wish I could turn off rollback on admin accounts. Thanks for the note. Kevin (talk) 03:36, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Islamic Terrorism

I reverted your removal of the Fort Hood shooting/massacre as your reason was unfair. I never suggested that any killing by a Muslim was automatically Islamic terrorism. However, if a devout Muslim yelling "Allahu Akbar" before killing 13 people and wounding 31 others does not qualify as Islamic terrorism, then we are setting the bar way too high. Screaming "Allahu Akbar" prior to unproviked violence carries the meaning "I am Muslim and I am killing you because you are not Muslims."Jwbaumann (talk) 06:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Unfair? I don't think so. There is much speculation in the media as to whether it is terrorism or not, and until the media move one way or the other we should not be labelling it as such. Your assertion that yelling "Allahu Akbar" makes a killing into a terrorist act seems like WP:OR to me. Kevin (talk) 06:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• In 1978, the U.S. Columnist Joseph Kraft, having access to the people in power, wrote a column in The Ottawa Citizen with the header, ¨Radicals in Check - Islamic Revival no Threat to the West¨ In retrospect, he and his sources in power were wrong at that time.

I wrote a letter to The Citizen taking exception to his projections. I sent a copy to the Prime Minister, all Opposition Party leaders, The Pope´s Ambassador to Canada and all Princes of the Catholic Church in Canada, the Leaders of all other Christian Denominations, and to Jewish and Islamic Religious Leadership. The only one to reply was the Hon. Joe_Clark, Leader of the Official Opposition at the time.

You can read this 31 year old projection of what I saw coming relative to this discussion in 1978. The Citizen did not publish it. You might need a magnifying glass even after the expanded image to read the script, the three images down, three on the left. I was much younger then, interpreting the world through the prism of the Bible of things appearing darkly in the Future. These days I learn about it in the secular media as it´s happening. I hope this provides some backgrounder information to this discussion. The reality IS, God IS Great! [1] Peace DoDaCanaDa (talk) 17:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no interest whatsoever in your racist crap. Go and find somewhere else for it. Kevin (talk) 00:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

• Is this reply typical of your application of WP:NPOV?

What the fuck are you talking about NPOV for? Racist crap is my (apt) description of what you wrote above. Kevin (talk) 02:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The attack was a terrorist attack, carried out by a Muslim terrorist who listened to and followed a radical Imam, and did his best to kill as many people as possible. Had this be a Christian shouting "Jesus Saves" and opened up on Mulims, everyone would be screaming about Christian terrorists! mab91c —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.69.124.22 (talk) 04:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

And I would equally tell those people to go fuck themselves, if they sprouted their racist crap all over my talk page.

Now in case I haven't made myself clear, fuck off. All of you. Kevin (talk) 04:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Well; you've made yourself clear, Kevin me'lad, but using vulgarities is frowned upon by most in civilized talk. Perhaps you could get out of your shorts, bathrobe, & slippers, get up out of the basement, and go see if your mommy needs a nice cup of tea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.69.124.22 (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd appreciate your response

I'd appreciate your response to the discussion you began on my talkpage. Thanks Kevin McCready (talk) 03:41, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't begin it. But I will comment further if you like. Kevin (talk) 03:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The attack was a terrorist attack, carried out by a Muslim terrorist who listened to and followed a radical Imam, and did his best to kill as many people as possible. Had this be a Christian shouting "Jesus Saves" and opened up on Mulims, everyone would be screaming about Christian terrorists!

Brittny Gastineau

I saw your revert on Brittny Gastineau, quick question about it. While it is unsourced (and I don't remember it in the movie), my take on this information is that not only isn't it notable, but it violates WP:UNDUE because there's no context whatsoever to the quote. Some editors want to push what they see as the "truth," but without knowing if she was joking (in an obvious comedy movie), and without any kind of reliable sources establishing notability, it doesn't belong. What's your take on that? Thanks in advance. Dayewalker (talk) 22:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I've made a comment to that effect at the BLP noticeboard. Kevin (talk) 22:41, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

(EC) Whoops! We must have just crossed paths. I appreciate it! Dayewalker (talk) 22:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Invitation to participate in SecurePoll feedback and workshop

As you participated in the recent Audit Subcommittee election, or in one of two requests for comment that relate to the use of SecurePoll for elections on this project, you are invited to participate in the SecurePoll feedback and workshop. Your comments, suggestions and observations are welcome.

For the Arbitration Committee,
Risker (talk) 08:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

WP:Articles for deletion/Yaakov Teitel

Re your close of this AfD -- Teitel has now been charged with an impressive array of offenses, stretching over many years: [2]. I wonder if you're inclined to revisit the notion that this one falls under BLP1E: the fact that some editors are inclined to see it that way doesn't make it so. This one feels an awful lot like no consensus. No big deal, I suppose -- it can be recreated as evidence of notability continues to accumulate. regards, Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to ignore all of those delete opinions at the debate, but if there is new info, that would be appropriate to present at WP:DRV. I don't quite agree with your view of BLP1E. As it is a subjective guideline, it really does come to the weight of arguments. Kevin (talk) 11:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

1E subjective here? Straight countable to me. See next. -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

A very surprising closure to me. Could you clarify:

1. . If it were a ONEEVENT, then which event would that be? I found not one editior naming a specific single event.
2. . Please clarify the unclearness of WP:BLP1E here. When I use that guideline, it is fully usable here (concluding not 1E).
3. . You wrote ""weak keep", and one mentions BLP1E concerns [in his week keep arguments, DePiep]": if that editor, after concerning, concludes a keep, how come you turn that to the opposite (i.e. into weighing against keep)? -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

At several recent AfDs there has been discussion of whether a series of criminal acts followed by a trial comprises a single event for the purposes of applying WP:BLP1E. There have been editors on both sides of this debate, showing that the policy does not have a bright line, but must be interpreted by contributors to a deletion debate. It is not the place of the closing admin to draw the line, but to determine where the debate participants have done so. As for the "weak keep" mention, when weighing up the arguments I placed less weight on those whose opinion was "weak keep", and noted that one keep argument did feel that there may be BLP1E concerns. In my opinion, this weakens that keep argument in that rather than refute the main point of debate, it acknowledges it. Kevin (talk) 20:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I asked three straight questios and you (an admin!) answer is only this? -DePiep (talk) 22:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I think I've answered your questions, and have nothing else to add. Kevin (talk) 22:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Uh? so answers 1. 2. 3. are? -DePiep (talk) 22:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If you are disinclined to take your answers from what I have written, then perhaps you are being affected by your preconception of what those answers should be. Kevin (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Once again: your answers to 1.2. and 3 are? -DePiep (talk) 22:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

For starters, to help you: What is the ONEEVENT it is about? -DePiep (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I have said all I intend to say on this particular close. If you disagree with those whose interpretation of WP:BLP1E is different to yours, you will need to find another venue in which to take this up. There is a list of them (the editors) at the AfD. Kevin (talk) 00:16, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

No sir. I disagree with your behaviour and conclusions here. These people overthere, at AfD: I did argue. Here I ask clear questions, and you shy away. I disagree with your closing of this AfD, and you evoke the discussion or responsability. A WP:VFD then.

DePiep (talk) 00:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I have not shied away, I just haven't answered in exactly the form you feel you require. It is clear that no matter what I say here you will disagree with the closing, as is your right, so to me there is little point in further discussion. I think your link above was meant to be WP:DRV. Kevin (talk) 00:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, Your link is better: WP:DRV. I am not used to delete-reviews. Then: it's not about your form of answering: it is your not answering. What is the one event? -DePiep (talk) 00:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Note - I have opened a deletion revire at Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_November_13. Kevin (talk) 00:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

We take this as a REVIEW of your conclusion. So somewhere (on internet) you might be right. Please provide the link. -DePiep (talk) 01:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are asking here. I have opened a deletion review so that other editors can examine my actions. What more is it you want? Kevin (talk) 01:15, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

(ec)and the ONEEVENT is: ... (applause after filling in) -DePiep (talk) 01:17, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I give up. Kevin (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Only after question 1?! A free re-chance: what is the single ONE EVENT? -DePiep (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Unnecessary and unhelpful. Sorry. Stroked. -DePiep (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Deletion review for Sniff Petrol

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Sniff Petrol. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Davepoth (talk) 12:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Kevin (talk) 20:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

George Lee

Hi Kevin. You closed the AfD on George Lee (British politician). I was v surprised that this article was not in Wikipedia - I've quickly recreated it from the Google cache in my Userspace and added some refs making the claims to notability (I think) pretty clear. I think this is probably ready for a Deletion Review but I'd really value your opinion on whether more work is needed on it first. Many thanks. NBeale (talk) 13:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that the draft version does not address the concerns that were raised at the AfD, being that his accomplishments do not show notability. I think you should run this by some of the contributors to the AfD and see what their opinion is. Kevin (talk) 22:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Heydon Prowse

Please review Heydon Prowse discussion page. Per your suggestion of finding common ground, both parties have agreed that page should be reverted to pre-edit "war" to the revision of approx May 2009. Would you revert to this version or unlock the page? LondonFoggy (talk) 16:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Liquid

Hello, Kevin. You have new messages at Liquid's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

-- Marie Poise (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Marc Sinden edit warring

Thanks for the warning - if you get a chance, could you review edit history of Clegg, particularly with reference to Marc Sinden, and perhaps advise on dragging the article back to some semblance of encyclopaedic content? Little grape (talk) 21:46, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

You two are so clearly unable to work collaboratively that I see few options. I have made suggestions previously regarding working together that were ignored, and no changes in the attitude of either of you. Kevin (talk) 21:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

You may agree that user:Captainclegg is clearly extremely close to Sinden, which makes any collaboration extremely difficult. Even if collaboration is impossible, it should be fairly easy to trim false, misleading and unencyclopaedic content out of the article without screams of 'vandal' arising every single time? If it were just me then fine, but myriad other editors have found this and other Sinden-related articles have Clegg (and his previously exposed socks) all over them as gatekeepers. I'm not sure what the solution is apart from opening a case? Little grape (talk) 22:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem with 'East', the 1975 play by Steven Berkoff, is that the article was hijacked and written to a) feature Sinden's much later production instead of the original, b) insert Sinden's website instead of the writer's website, c) falsely insert Sinden as a writer in the 'category' section, d) falsely claim that the DVD was a 'best seller', and finally e) link to his own website - again. I corrected this at [[3]] but Clegg repeatedly reverted. Little grape (talk) 22:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Without taking into account the rightness or otherwise of your edits, to me it looks like I warned you for edit warring with Captainclegg, and you immediately went and reverted at another article. Do you see the problem with that? Kevin (talk) 22:49, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I understand and appreciate that view from your viewpoint; perhaps you might take also into account the view that the editor in question has been previously blocked for socking in support of Sinden-related articles (months before I took any interest) and appears to simply traipse around reverting perfectly good edits designed to remove puffery/PR guff? All I can really do is again indicate to you my original edit, and leave it to you and others to judge whether the edits should have been reverted. As I said above, I'm not sure what the solution is to this sort of thing - and the 'East' article is a great example of how it can all go horribly wrong unless editors go through the lengthy process of a) complaining about it, b) digging up hundreds of edits, c) opening a case, and d) hoping that proportionality will prevail. Little grape (talk) 23:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

But I am trying to STOP the vandalism of this site. I am not trying to antagonise Little Grape at all, merely stop him/her from constantly deleting sourced material that doesn't suit his POV. I am undoing his wrong and inaccurate edits of sourced material. He tried to claim that the 'Relative Values' articles were in the Sunday Times, when they were in the Daily Mail. I have a copy in front of me! He claims that Debretts was not called 'Distinguished', yet if you look at the ISBN and the source that I used, it was then called that. It only changed its name recently. Please help to stop this apparent personal obsession that Little Grape has with deleting so much of the Sinden article. I cannot get away from the fact that it seems personal. But we have been here before and I thought (after your suggestion) that we had 'drawn a line' but apparently not... Captainclegg (talk) 22:49, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Let me be very clear. You two are having an editorial disagreement over the article content. When you disagree with something it is not automatically vandalism, and you should not mark it as such. The only thing you should be marking as vandalism is "page blanking and adding cruel or offensive language" or similar material(from WP:3RR). At this point I am inclined to ban you both from any articles related to Sinden. I'll have to think on that a bit. Kevin (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that advise about the vandalism. I was unaware of that. I will take more care with that in future. May I refer you to the Talk:The Bishops Avenue page where Little Grape has made it very clear that he must know where Sinden lives personally and even describes the house (which is more than I am aware of) surely proving that he must know Sinden and have some personal beef with him to be so specific. As I stated previously when all this kicked-off originally, I would be happy to 'draw a line', but Little Grape seems hell-bent on re-writing the facts to suit his aim. He has now incorrectly removed the word "Distinguished" from the reference to an honorary position held by Sinden at the British Humanist Association. I have not however corrected it for fear of falling foul of your ruling! But again, I appeal for your intervention. Captainclegg (talk) 23:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Relative Values is and always has been a Sunday Times feature; it's been run every week in the Sunday Times Magazine for at least twenty five years that I can recall - see [[4]]. Debrett's stopped using 'Distinguished' in 1991. Here's evidence from the ISBN list: [[5]]. And, yes, as I clearly know where Sinden lives and Clegg says he doesn't know - perhaps he can stop adding the false claim that Sinden lives on Bishop's Avenue? Perhaps a sensible solution is indeed to ban both of us from any Sinden-related articles, and allow other editors to fill the breach. I'm happy with such a solution. Little grape (talk) 23:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

And finally, some shock news that should surprise no-one. After some minor digging, one discovers Clegg admits that HE is Marc Sinden in this edit [[6]], which he has later erased from his talkpage. QED. Having exposed him, may I therefore request you consider blocking him indefinitely from editing his own article and any Sinden-related ones? Thanks Little grape (talk) 23:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

1.) Angela Brooks (a Daily Mail column writer) wrote the regular series Relative Values in 1994. The particular article quoted is a full-page, two-fold interview with Donald Sinden and his son Marc, discussing his schooling, among many other things, from their respective viewpoints. It is a separate article from the Sunday Times article and in no way connected, as far as I can tell. I photocopied it from my local library. 2.) I included a sourced blog which stated that Sinden lived in The Bishops Avenue. (http://realestalker.blogspot.com/2009/09/heather-mills-is-flipping-out-on.html) Kevin said this was unreliable and I have not argued the point or reverted it once this ruling was made. I did not write it or invent it. As in point 1 please stop shooting the messenger. 3.) Unlike Little Grape, who says above "I clearly know where Sinden lives" I am unaware of where Sinden now lives, or for how long. I would be interested to know how he does and with what accuracy. Perhaps he should declare his interest or real identity. 4.) As Little Grape has done his constant damnedest to out me (a serious Wiki offence, but no one has done anything about it...) I can now tell him that Yes, he is right, as I stated, I was in the 'Hey Jude' film. I am the girl standing behind and to the left of Paul, in the white dress, black belt and brown hair. THAT is how I know that the two Sinden brothers were in the film (who are behind and next to Ringo) and that is what I told Mark Lewisohn. Satisfied now? Sorry to disappoint you and your obsessive conspiracy theory. 5.) I would also suggest that the articles that have been so furiously tampered with by Little Grape are returned to their state of 24-hours ago and that the two of us are then excluded from any Sinden-related articles, as suggested. I would not have a problem with that. Captainclegg (talk) 01:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh this just gets funnier and funnier, if it weren't for the fact that the encyclopaedia continues to be corrupted by ever-greater numbers of editors who see it as just one giant vanity page. Little grape (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll be back to deal with you pair tomorrow. In the meantime, you might consider that you are not helping either. Kevin (talk) 07:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Kevin, is it possible that with the almost exclusively targeted deletion of any and all articles concerning Marc Sinden (including sourced material) and the very intimate knowledge of his travel plans, not as far as I can see published in any paper etc. Marc Sinden is currently in Australia, having just arrived there, all references to Ms Mills, even including his denials of any relationship with her and his home address I clearly know where Sinden lives - ...in a little semi-detached two-up two-down off the Finchley Road and has lived there for at least the last ten years that we are perhaps being manipulated into looking the wrong way at who Little Grape really is? Double-bluff, smoke & mirrors perhaps? I merely ask the question. Captainclegg (talk) 12:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Copied section to Sinden talk page as this may run and run - it seems like a more appropriate venue.... Little grape (talk) 14:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Kevin, PLEASE don't let this matter slip away... Captainclegg (talk) 23:32, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Scientology in Australia

Hi Kevin, I reverted your removal an entry on the page but just noticed I mistyped my edit summary as "hardy adequate", which would not make sense. I meant to type "hardly inadequate". Just thought I'd explain. –Moondyne 07:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured that out. I have no idea how a website's own claims of being sued are a reliable source, or how something unreported in the press so far as I know is even notable, but whatever. Kevin (talk) 07:48, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

AbbyWinters.com

I disagree with removing the identity controversy and i wrote my reasons to the articles talk page. Also i think that when you are doing BLP and removing large parts from the article it would be polite to add notify in the talk-page also. --Zache (talk) 18:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I thought that the edit summaries I used were detailed enough to explain my reasons for the removal. I've replied to your note that the article talk page. Kevin (talk) 22:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Liquid

Hi there Kevin, greatly appreciate your intervention between Marie Poise and logger9. I read you've come to one of the same questions I asked Marie, she refused to answer me. I'm not sure why she should change her mind. Both appear willing to discuss content, yet whenever a straight question appears, they duck and get personal (not always attacks, just personal in other ways). Marie wrote she doesn't want to answer me because even if we reach consensus at T:liquid, logger would continue his edits at other places. I should perhaps give up then, but imo this bunch of general articles (liquid, solid, glass, solution, etc) is simply to generally important. I think most can and should yet be improved. If anything, logger and Marie seem to agree about that.

My idea is this: there is an inactive physical chemistry wikiproject. Though I am not an expert in physical chemistry, I know a little about it and could restart the project, but only if logger and Marie agree to join too. I hope others will also jump in. We could then have general discussions about groups of articles, which (secondary?) sources to use for the general articles, how to distribute info over several articles, etc. This can only work if logger9 agrees not to insert new content without consensus at the project pages first. The two of them also need to get more constructive imho - that's why at first some supervision would be welcome. I'd like to propose this idea at the TP of liquid, but what's your opinion? Regards, Woodwalker (talk) 05:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

That could work, but first both of them need to learn to work together, and we're still waiting for a sign that this is possible. I was thinking of trying to get them to collaborate on the lead of Liquid, or perhaps the outline Marie mentioned. Kevin (talk) 05:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, sounds like a plan. Marie just gave a list of secondary sources (hurray...) so I'll just sit back and watch for a while. Please notify me when you think I can be of use. Woodwalker (talk) 08:03, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

If you know something of the subject, then you can help right now. I think some examples of normal courteous editorial discussion could help both parties. Step in anytime. Kevin (talk) 08:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm of little use when liquids are discussed in such detail. I've been educated in thermodynamics and dynamics/mechanics of crystalline solids, but know very little about liquids. I understand more or less what they are discussing and am familiar with the terminology, but I cannot judge the relative importance of the content they add or remove well enough to propose a clear outline myself. They will have to do it together or another expert has to turn up. Woodwalker (talk) 08:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Willy Schäfer (actor)

Hi Kevin, Would you either reopen this AfD or close it as no consensus? I can't see the article at this point, but I don't think there was consensus for that deletion (no !votes to delete...) Thanks, Hobit (talk) 23:02, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry, link to AfD here.

Seems like a clear enough consensus to me. One editor nominated, citing lack of sources, another editor noted that sources could not be found, and no-one argued to keep. Kevin (talk) 01:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi Kevin, I sent this to DrV. I'm fairly sure this is not a valid close per WP:RELIST, but I've been wrong before.... Hobit (talk) 03:41, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

What a pointless waste of time. Had you asked for it to be restored so you could fix it up I would have done, the same as I would for a PROD. Or was there another point to this? Kevin (talk) 06:27, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Um, yeah, I asked about the AfD and you said there was consensus at AfD. I did ask you to either reopen or change the close and you refused. I guess we talked past each other, but I felt my request was pretty clear. Hobit (talk) 00:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Either way it's out of both our hands now. Kevin (talk) 00:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Heh heh

I love your deletion summary for Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kmweber 3, calling it "non-controversial" :) I mean, it is, but don't be surprised if certain people create controversy over it. --NE2 01:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure they will. We can use it to define irony in months to come. Kevin (talk) 01:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Michael Solonoski

Hi Kevin, Additional information was added to the article before it was closed, showing that Michael Solonoski indeed fits the qualifications for inclusion, as he is competing at the "highest level of his sport" 2010 United States Figure Skating Championships. He also has competed internationally twice. If his article was removed, other athletes such as Jordan Miller (figure skater) should be most definitely be removed, as they have even less notability in the sport. Additionally, a stub should be added for Daniel Raad, who is competing at the 2010 United States Figure Skating Championships as well.

I would argue that "is going to compete" is a world away from "has competed", which is the standard that WP:ATHLETE calls for. Kevin (talk) 06:19, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Kevin, hope you don't mind me jumping in here, but there is a current discussion here where consensus seems to be forming that "current squad members" who have not yet competed can be considered notable until such a time that they either fulfill the requirements or they are removed from the squad. --Jezebel'sPonyo^shhh 14:25, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

User:Marie Poise and User:Logger9 at ANI

If you could comment at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Repeated Reverts at Solid, it would be much appreciated. Cheers, NW (Talk) 22:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

At this point I'm inclined to block the pair of them. Kevin (talk) 21:37, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I have commented there also. Your opinion is needed. DGG ( talk ) 22:46, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that opinion, it is very useful. Kevin (talk) 23:19, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Kevin, DGG, NW, I am with you to mediate this case. Would it be possible to have your opinion on whether or not COI and related protectionism maybe a factor (I left a subsection at the bottom of ANI thread). This might help to develop a solution. Thank you. Materialscientist (talk) 23:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Gracie and Zarkov

While examining the editorial actions of a sockpuppet I ran across a number of bad faith nominations. This was one of the deletions I overturned after finding a significant number of sources pointing to its notability. Please let me know if you are not comfortable with this action. ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 01:47, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a problem, but you might want to let those who argued to delete know. Kevin (talk) 01:57, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I dropped them a note, thanks ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 02:30, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Chris C. Kemp

Hi Kevin, You recently deleted an article I submitted on the NASA Ames Research Center CIO Chris C. Kemp. I personally also work at NASA Ames and I am surprised to find this article be nominated for deletion, since it aims to provide a genuine and objective bio of a valuable member of the NASA family. I would like to work on bringing an article about Chris C. Kemp back as he is an important executive driving innovation inside the Agency (cloudcomputing) and I believe having a wikipedia article on Chris C. Kemp serves the important purpose of offering a trustworthy source about his background and career for US government officials. Could you provide me with guidelines on how to make it more appropriate for inclusion on wikipedia?

Thanks Navarenko (talk) 22:01, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The criteria for inclusion of biographies are listed at WP:BIO, and are essentially that the person has been the subject of reliably published coverage that is independent from the subject. Fir this individual I would expect to see newspaper or magazine articles or something similar. Kevin (talk) 23:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. Shouldn't be a problem, i've already gathered a few, like SFChronicle, WashingtonPost, BBC and more recently NextGov, Spacenews, FederalNewsRadio and others. I'm happy to edit the article to base it on these secondary resources. Is there a way I can get the original page back to start editing? Thanks again Navarenko (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the coverage here are more than trivial mentions that do not meet the criteria at WP:BIO. We need something that has more than his name and job title, such as a paragraph of background on Kemp. I'll have a look on NewsBank and see if there is anything there. Kevin (talk) 21:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

NewsBank only has the SF Chronicle article you linked, and EBSCOhost brought up one article with a similar trivial mention of his name only. Kevin (talk) 21:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. Its a bit of catch22 cause the previous wiki article was used for that very purpose, i.e. providing an overview of the man's career and current position. it was used by many as a reference for a brief bio (e.g. where he sat on a panel etc). There is a profile coming out in a week or so on spacenews, hopefully that will have the looked-for bio/background info. meanwhile, could I get access to the deleted article to draft the updated version so it'll be ready when the profile comes out? Navarenko (talk) 22:50, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The pre-deletion version is now at User:Navarenko/Chris C. Kemp. Kevin (talk) 00:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Consideration

Hoping, given the passage of two weeks as you stipulated, that you've had time for consideration. Kevin McCready (talk) 01:31, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I have responded to your latest on my talk page. I think you may like to respond before I consider taking this further. Kevin McCready (talk) 23:32, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

You have apparently refused to respond but as a matter of courtesy to you I am letting you know I have reported your behaviour at the admin incidents page.Kevin McCready (talk) 09:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Or alternately, I was busy and had not yet had a chance. Kevin (talk) 11:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD for Christy Twins

Hello Kevin, At the AfD for the Christy Twins [7], you indicated that there was a clear consensus to delete. That one was a bit weird in that a number of people !voted twice. So after the relist by Tim there was only one new !vote to delete and one to redirect if I'm counting correctly. Could you look that over again and reopen the discussion? Thanks, Hobit (talk) 05:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I have amended the closing statement to explain how I assessed this, essentially I merged duplicate arguments into one for each editor. That done, the consensus is clear and deletion is the only possible outcome. Kevin (talk) 05:48, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I'm still unclear how consenous on the issue was made clear by one additional !vote on both sides, but I'll drop it for now. Hobit (talk) 16:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Megarex and Megarex (album)

Hi, Kevin! You closed the discussion about Megarex and Megarex (album). However, you didn't remove the tag from the former. The last is still tagged for deletion. Can you solve it? Thank you!Victor Silveira (talk) 02:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Kevin (talk) 02:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok! Thank you!Victor Silveira (talk) 00:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP Arthur Kemp

Kevin - Your guidance is requested on the BLP Arthur Kemp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kemp

Your response has been the only reaction to the proposed revision of that article, as contained on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arthur_Kemp Talk:Arthur Kemp page.

As I am new to Wikipedia, does the lack of response mean acceptance of the revised article or will it get reverted if posted?

Many thanks for your time. TheFallenCrowd (talk) 11:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Help

Many thanks for your help with my request on ANI. AndrewRT(Talk) 23:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

re: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Fury

I am a bit confused by our close of these AfD. You say that the question is whether or not he meets WP:ATH. That is certainly a relevant question, but it isn't the only question. For a subject to be included, it must meet either the GNG or one of the more specific guidelines. I think it is a legitimate point of debate whether the GNG is met here and with a 2 to 2 !vote I don't see how you can say there is consensus that it is not met. As such, I would appreciate an explanation. Thanks, ThaddeusB (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

While WP:ATHLETE is more specific than WP:GNG, it is also less stringent in it's inclusion criteria, so generally I find that if an athlete fails the former then they also fail the latter. That said, GNG was not addressed in the debate, only ATHLETE. In my opinion, those arguments based on ATHLETE were easily strong enough to show a consensus for deletion. Are yuo sure we want to keep an article where the strongest keep argument is "barely notable"? Kevin (talk) 04:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. No, I am not sure it should be kept (hence my "weak keep") and don't plan to contest the close. For future reference, you should be aware that amateur athletes are quite often notable, at least in the United States. The US puts a lot more emphasis on college sports than most any other country in the world. (Not saying this applied here, just offering it as a general note.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Go to Hell

Do not ever send me a message telling me I cannot express an opinion in a discussion thread. If you don't like my opinion then post a counter-argument, if you cannot do that then shut up. scooteristi (talk) 01:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What, you aren't able to make an argument without the words "detestable gnat on humanity"? Kevin (talk) 01:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Requesting unprotection of Fidel Castro

Hi Kevin, I see that Fidel Castro has been on semi for over half a year, and I realize that continued protection for the remaining half-year may be warranted, especially for a BLP. But I'm wondering if (as User:Splash put it), we can "see how things are going". At least one anon seems interested in improving the article [8], and I wouldn't be surprised if there are other anons who simply haven't taken the extra step of voicing their concerns on the talk page. As Splash also said, "popular articles will always get vandalised", but I'm wondering if we can see whether anons' contributions add up to a net positive for the article--at least for the time being, while there's evidence of anon interest in the page. I have this article on my watchlist, and, if you decide to unprotect it, I'll be glad to let you or RPP know if the vandals start to dominate. Thanks, Cosmic Latte (talk) 15:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, we'll see how it goes. Kevin (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Lee

This AfD was relisted for discussion on 10 December 2009 but you closed it with delete one day later. Can you explain why you acted so prematurely? Xxanthippe (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC).

I am of the opinion that leaving debates on BLPs open for an excessive amount of time is generally to be avoided, in fairness to the subject. So in some cases I will close as soon as a clear consensus has formed, and in other cases, I basically treat it as an uncontested WP:PROD. This was a bit of both. As to whether closing after a relist is premature, there is no policy or guideline specifying any particular time to wait after a relist. Kevin (talk) 02:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:56, 12 December 2009 (UTC).

For God's sake do something about this crazy person

Decided to edit the Marc Sinden article - immediate over rule by Little Grape virtually accusing me of being Sinden. I research Little Grape. Dozens of edit warring warnings and insane lunacy on Jonathan King article, Black and several more. Time someone flushed this crazy out of Wikipedia. Parnathus (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, and who were you before this account? Kevin (talk) 21:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Kevin, for your info, I am staying WAY outta this one! Ringside and lovin' it! Captainclegg (talk) 14:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Kevin, I am really trying to bite my tongue here, but if you read the latest posting from Little grape on the Talk:Marc Sinden page, he is now being highly insulting and derogatory, saying that Sinden is "less notable than my goldfish", lying in saying that I had "claimed to be a 'good friend'" of Sinden's (which I would not claim to be) and that I had "expunged completely" Jeremy Sinden's name from the Marc Sinden article, which is absolutely untrue, as there is a link in the article anyway. Little grape is going against everything that you had previously instructed the two of us about and now making life hell for another editor. Please intercede. It is unfair and I am trying to stick to what you, rightly, had previously said. Enough, surely, is enough. Captainclegg (talk) 18:40, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Rename?

Hey Kevin, i'm one of your Talk Page Stalkers. I'm just curious, why did you decide to rename? The Wordsmith^Communicate 18:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)