Talk:Ich bin ein Berliner

The phrase and the legend in fiction and popular culture

• In the X-Files episode "Schizogeny", Mulder erroneously tells a teen with the poster "Ich bin ein Auslander" (mistakenly spelled Auslander, correct spelling is Ausländer) that when Kennedy said "Ich bin ein Berliner" he was saying "I am a cocktail sausage", leading to the teen's response: "Who's Kennedy?".

• "Ich Bin Ein Auslander" is also the name of the opening track on the 1994 album Dos Dedos Mis Amigos by UK group Pop Will Eat Itself.

• During a concert in Berlin on November 3, 1996, Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam said to the crowd: "I don't know what to say so I'll just say this, I am a donut."

• British comedian Eddie Izzard talks about John Kennedy's "I am a doughnut" speech in his stand-up act Dress to Kill.

• In Terry Pratchett's book Monstrous Regiment (p. 328 of the hardcover), Samuel Vimes makes a speech in which he says "Ze chzy Brogocia proztfik!", intending this to mean "I am a citizen of Borogravia!". What he actually says is "I am a cherry pancake!".

• The legend also appears in Berlin Game, the first book in Len Deighton's Game, Set, Match trilogy. Deighton describes German cartoonists drawing "talking doughnuts" the next day, but there is no historical evidence for this.

• The short story "Told You So" by Esther M. Friesner in the 1992 alternate-history anthology Alternate Kennedys has Kennedy being granted the ability to have his every utterance become reality and being turned into a jelly donut when he says the famous phrase.

• In an episode of the cartoon Animaniacs a frustrated Abraham Lincoln is trying to prepare the Gettysburg Address, and considers opening with "Ich bin ein Gettysburger."

• According to British comedian Alexei Sayle, prior to the speech Kennedy wrapped himself in black plastic. He then mounted the podium and proclaimed: "Ich bin ein Binliner".

• In an episode of Seinfeld, Jerry makes a reference to the "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech when Elaine displays her interest in JFK Jr. Commentary subtitles to the DVD mistakenly report the "jelly doughnut" legend as fact.

• Artist Achim Mentzel released a CD titled Ich bin ein Berliner with a track of the same name.

• The British band 'Blurt has a song about this called "Bullets For You" on the album with the same title.

• The famous parts of the speech are heavily sampled in the The Passage's song "brd usa ddr jfk" from their 1983 album Enflame.

• In an episode of The Tick, the Tick is sent to Antwerp, Belgium and ends up proclaiming "Ich bin ein Berliner." to a stupefied audience.

• In 1983, then U.S. Vice President George H. W. Bush while visiting Mödlareuth exclaimed, "Ich bin ein Mödlareuther!".

• In episode 7 of Sealab 2021, "Little Orphan Angry", the orphan boy says of Griff's banking scam, "Ich bin impressed!"
  • A later episode of Sealab, "Craptastic Voyage", features Tornado Shanks with a tiny submarine in his brain that crashes into his language center. Shanks promptly mutters the line: "Ich bin ein Berliner" to which John F. Kennedy shows up stating: "Hey, hey, that's my line, tumorface!"

• In the book The Year of Secret Assignments, on page 193 & 194, there is a paragraph as follows:

  "Well, what happened was, a former president of the United States went to Berlin, Germany, and he shouted at the crowd: 'Ich bin ein Berliner!!' Now, for some reason which I cannot fathom, he was trying to say, 'I am a resident of Berlin!!' (He wasn't.) But, for some reason which I also cannot fathom, he was actually saying: 'I am a jelly doughnut!'

• In the episode "Simpson Tide" of The Simpsons Abraham Simpson recalls the time when he was on the PT 109 with John F. Kennedy and heard him say, "Ich bin ein Berliner". Abe then yells to his shipmates, "He's a Nazi! Get him!" and he and the crew beat him up. In another episode "Burns Verkaufen der Kraftwerk", Mayor Quimby (himself somewhat of a parody of Kennedy) in an effort to welcome German businessmen, says, "Ich bin ein Springfielder!".

• In an episode of The Mask The Animated Series (Flight As A Feather), during a ceremony declaring Barvariaville, a German-themed neighborhood near Edge City, as the exclusive vendor of pretzels for all city functions, Mayor Tilton says, "Ich bin ein Barvariavillian.

• In the film Blades of Glory this phrase can be heard at the beginning of the musical sequence for the double figure skating pair of Stranz Van Waldenberg (dressed as John F. Kennedy) and Fairchild Van Waldenberg (dressed as Marilyn Monroe).

• In "The Baby Shower", an episode of Seinfeld, George states, "Ich bin ein sucker."

• The English comedian Eddie Izzard references the urban legend in his show 'Dress to Kill'.

• Political humorist Stephen Colbert quotes "I am a jelly doughnut" on The Colbert Report of August 18, 2009 in reporting on the Federal elections in Germany in September. He mentions the Berlin candidate Vera Lengsfeld who exposes her cleavage to campaign. Video here: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/247056/august-18-2009/tip-wag---german-campaign--russian-dogs---flying-rabbis Alandeus (talk) 15:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

{Sources}

19:39, 9 September 2007 Amcbride (Talk | contribs) (16,739 bytes) (→Jelly doughnut urban legend - {sources} tag: I'm inclined to believe WP here, but currently this section presents 6 sources AGAINST its own thesis and zero for it)

You should explain that - HERE. Guidod 20:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry; I thought my edit was clear and simple enough that explaining in the edit summary was enough. I don't know if I can elaborate much on my edit summary, but I'll try. WP:V says "any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." In this case, we haven't shown the reader where to find a reliable source that has published the information that the "jelly doughnut" story is an urban legend. This would be a problem by itself, but it is even more of a problem here, because not only have we given no reliable sources to support what the article is saying, we have given six sources that support the opposite of what the article is saying. (Not deceptively; of course... the article correctly makes clear that the sources support the "jelly doughnut" story.) If I thought the article's thesis was false that the doughnut story is an urban legend, I would simply have removed the material as unsourced. But the section is well written and has me reasonably convinced that indeed the doughnut story is just an urban legend. All it lacks are sources. Hence the {{sources}} tag. Does this make sense? Do you have a reliable source for the doughnut story as an urban legend? If not, how would you feel about replacing the {{sources}} tag? --Allen 22:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

No response; restoring {{sources}} tag. --Allen 01:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not regularly on the English wikipedia of course - as for the jelly doughnut legend to be a myth, well, feel free to read the discussions on this page. And yes, there are indeed about 100 million native German-speakers who will testify that the story is plain wrong - how much more do you need for a reliable fact? Reputable media in Germany will not care about a story that has no meaning in Germany and which is so obviously ridiculous. The interesting thing about the story is that there are those "otherwise reputble media" in the English-speaking world who have cited the myth as if being the truth.... because otherwise it would have not have any factual basis to be worth of being listed in an encyclopedia in the first place (well, perhaps in the trivia section like "note that some hicks in the US believe there was a grammatical error" or something.). Guidod 18:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Please do not use derogatory language like "hick" on Wikipedia. We have a policy called WP:CIVIL that basically says to be polite and civil in Wikipedia discussions. As for the issue at hand, perhaps the German Wikipedia is different, but here on the English Wikipedia, we have a policy that says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." This is the same policy, WP:V, that I cited before. Please read it carefully. It does not matter if the information is true, nor does it matter if 100 million native German speakers agree. All that matters is whether or not the information has been published by a reliable source. I know this can seem counterintuitive at first, but it is a core policy that has served us very well over the years. --Allen 19:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The highest reliable source for a grammatical thing... that's native speakers. Of course we find that some people do not have "access" to a native speaker to verify what the truth is. But there is an easy way here - just put a {ref}-tag to the published material of proven native speakers. And there is an obvious candidate here - one can find that in en:Talk:Ich bin ein Berliner there are many German native speakers (many of them living in Berlin) telling what the truth is. It is easily verifiable. Any plead to counter that? Guidod 22:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I know that WP:V is kind of long, and I'm sure you're a busy person, but it really would help the discussion if you read it. For example, you would see that our policy is, "Articles and posts on Wikipedia or other open wikis should never be used as third-party sources" (here's a shortcut to the relevant section). So no, we cannot cite the article's own talk page. --Allen 00:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Shall I put a message on my university homepage? As a native speaker and Berlin resident I am obvouisly an expert in the field. Guidod 20:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Neither being a native German speaker nor being a Berlin resident makes you an expert in the question of the urban legend's status in Germany. That said, it is impossible to prove a negative, and probably impossible to find a source to back up a negative claim like "the urban legend is (virtually) unknown in Germany". The statement should simply be removed unless such a source actually does exist. —Angr 20:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[response to Guidod:] What you suggest might or might not work. You're right that there is something special about self-published work by experts that can make it an exception to the no-self-published-sources rule. Here is the relevant bit of policy (yet again, from WP:V):

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

So if you have had work regarding the German language published by reliable third-party publications, then you can post something on your university homepage, and we can probably cite it on Wikipedia. --Allen 02:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[to Angr] Thanks, but what about the basic issue of saying that the doughnut story is an urban legend, regardless of whether or not it's well known in Germany? --Allen 03:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I found this in about a minute and a half. There are probably more sources confirming its status as an urban legend if one takes the time to look. —Angr 06:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right; I'm sorry. I did look, and I found the about.com article too, but I didn't think about.com was a reliable source. But this time I also found this, which is probably a reliable source. --Allen 14:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh c'mon, you're taking the fun out of this where one would discuss reliability ouf sources - because every single of those references citing the myth as truth is obviously and by all logic less valuable than any single native speaker. Because they had forgotten to do the minimal original research that is all about good journalism. Even the reference to the word.com part does not show the slightest idea in the article of having any foundation for its claims. They just say so. (and to speak of cultural difference: sure, Aufklärung demands that authority is mainly drawn from proper reasoning in looking at the value of the text - its publisher is a secondary attribution. Yeah, even Science mags have bad days). Well anyway, if you feel fine with the current construction then so be it.

Going for "where is it known", well, the English wikipedia article has killed off already the reference that the origin of the popular myth is in the USA. The German wikipedia page still has it and it says frankly that it a US-centric phenomenon. And so far not a single reader had questioned that on de:Diskussion:Ich bin ein Berliner as "oh, I knew it already". May be you want to try google looking for German-speaking webpages - I assume that every single of them will say (a) it is a myth and (b) popular in the USA. (Unless they make out for a good satire anyway as the legend feels so ridiculous to a native speaker). If you have too much time then go looking and show me some counter example. What shall the ratio be for virtually unknown, 100:1 or 10000000:1 ? I can throw in some hundred people that I know personally around - whom can you account for as a counter example? Guidod 00:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't speak German, so I can't go looking on German-language webpages, but it is acceptable (not preferred, but acceptable) to cite German-language sources on the English Wikipedia, so feel free to add citations to published, third-party sources written in German. And I agree that word.com is not a great source. The about.com article is a lot better in this case, even though I'm not so sure about about.com overall. Your other arguments about published sources vs. the word of individuals with direct experience are better suited, I think, for Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability. They go to the heart of what Wikipedia is supposed to be, and if you successfully convinced the community to change its policy, this article is just one of thousands that would be dramatically affected. --Allen 17:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that the primary source is linked for all to review for themselves, namely, Kennedy's speech itself. Leaving aside the other fallacies (a Berliner is not the name of a doughnut in Berlin, there is no grammatical mistake), it can be seen that people do not, in fact, burst out laughing at the phrase when he utters it, as the legend asserts. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 17:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

@Allen, actually I was thinking that one could use the google translator to get the basic ideas out of a webpage. It's not a perfect tool but for the target snippets it should be all sufficient. - As for Talk:Verifiability, well, I don't have the time to set out on crusade to persuade people to what I believe should be common sense in the first place. If it is disputed anyway then my English level might hit the limits, for example, does "pristine sources" have the indented associations that I am thinking of? Guidod 01:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I have now supplied sources for several of the apparently contentious statements about the urban legend of the jelly doughnut. These sources, all of which are in German, clearly state that the type of jelly doughnut in question is called a Pfannkuchen in Berlin, that the urban legend prevalent in English-speaking countries is incorrect, and that the Kennedy speech was one of the great and celebrated moments in German post-war history. Not many English-language sources debunk this silly myth. One reason is the urban legend itself, another is the tremendous admiration and affection that most Germans, across the political spectrum, felt and continue to feel for Kennedy and his courageous speech. Being German and having lived in Germany from birth until age 24, I can certainly personally attest to those feelings of Germans about the speech. Perhaps for this reason Germans are not inclined to make fun of it. A U.S. analogue would be the Gettysburg Address. Substantively, the urban legend is utter and complete nonsense. I know from personal experience that many U.S. citizens find this hard to believe (some of the comments on this page seem to reflect a certain resistance to letting go of the legend). Nevertheless, it's true. I am very glad that this article sets the record straight.Paradisewithinthee 22:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

References like stadtkind.com or esskultur.net are nothing better than linking to my own homepage with a hasty remark. Your statement however highlights a fact that many of the English-speaking readers do not pay enough attention to: the actual affection of Germans towards the speech and its catch phrase. The JFK "Ich bin ein Berliner" snippet from the original tape is included quite often in contemporary media, TV and radio broadcasts - atleast around August 13 each year. These references are done always in a very dignified manner - so there you are how the public opinion comes about in Germany. Guidod 01:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Guidod, thanks for the suggestion of using Google translation; I hadn't thought of that. Actually it generates some reverse "Berliner" humor, because it always translates "Berliner" as "citizen of Berlin", even when the jelly doughnut is intended. And Paradisewithinthee, thanks for adding the sources. I agree with Guidod that some of them are no better than linking to Guidod's homepage, but I'm not going to worry about it anymore. It's better than no sources at all. And I won't protest if anyone wants to add the about.com reference in; I might do it myself if I get around to it. I can barely remember what it is I have against that website anyway. --Allen 01:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

William Grimes's June 6, 2007, review in the New York Times of Frederick Taylor's new book, The Berlin Wall: a World divided, 1961-1989, states that Taylor debunks the doughnut myth along the lines discussed here. Grimes wries, " . . . John F. Kennedy’s ringing declaration “Ich bin ein Berliner” (which, as Mr. Taylor carefully explains, does not mean “I am a jelly doughnut,” despite the myth) . . . " I believe that citing to the review is not appropriate, and any cites have to be to the book itself. I haven't seen it, but I'll try to get a hold of it and supply the citation.12.2.26.161 15:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that it's an urban legend, it's no urban legend which had never been known in Germany. No doubt, nobody in Berlin or watching this speech on TV - even if he calls jelly doughnuts "Berliner" - would have misunderstood that phrase. However, because of his little pause in that sentence it is a natural joke. I'm sure that many people realized the existence of this second interpretation and that it was a frequently told joke. Probably I'm wrong, but I "remember" that I misunderstood that sentence when I first heard it. Consider a child of seven or eight years who knows jelly doughnuts but is too young to know anything about Berlin, the Cold War and why his parents are afraid of some words. 84.178.88.165 18:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

FellGleaming (talk) 17:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Regarding the so-called "myth", I'm inclined to believe there is a bit more to it. This interview with a native of Berlin who actually heard Kennedy's speech said his phrase was "a bit silly" and specifically makes the "pancake" reference: http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=urbanlegends&cdn=newsissues&tm=103&gps=147_1123_1588_992&f=20&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/09/interviews/hosseini/.

This source, from a native German translator, says the phrasing is indeed closer to a "jelly doughnut" than a person, but claims the distinction was probably not enough to make the average person laugh: http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=1636.

Also, despite Kennedy's so-called professional translator, the fact remains that he (Robert Lochner) was not a German native-language speaker. The source article's conclusion that he couldn't have possibly made a mistake due to his "professional" status seems rather weak.

I'm inclined to believe Kennedy's speech probably was a bit of a gaffe, but considerably more slight than the "legend" leads us to believe, and the article should be amended accordingly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by FellGleaming (talk • contribs) 2008-01-23T18:34:10

I agree. Debate seems to swing between "He said he was a jelly doughnut" and "It's a complete myth" (with the latter currently being presented as "the Truth" in the article)…if he said "Ich bin Berliner" there would have been no ambiguity, but saying "Ich bin ein Berliner" did create *some* (I *believe* it also could have been understood as "I am *one* Berliner", or "*I* am a Berliner" [in the sense of "I too, am a Berliner"]…a native speaker would have to decide that (and I don't think it needs to be someone from Berlin as much as some others here seem to think), I studied German for many years but didn't grow up with it. N.B. The person who said it was an American accent because he had phonetically spelled for himself as "Bearleener", I think the poor pronunciation was related more to the "Ich". Historian932 (talk) 14:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

General Clay

Kennedy says, "And I am proud to ... come here in the company of my fellow American, General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis and will come again if ever needed." Does anyone know who is this General Clay? --Acepectif 09:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be Lucius D. Clay. —Angr 10:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ich / Ick

If I remember correctly, a Berliner would say "Ick bin ein Berliner"? A somewhat reliable source: the "Ick bin ein Amerikaner" T-shirts on http://usa.usembassy.de/gemeinsam/05.htm. Erik Warmelink (talk) 00:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It's true that the word for "I" in Berlin dialect is ick, not ich. However, I suspect those T-shirts are more a teasing reference to Americans' inability to pronounce the sound [ç] than a reference to Berlin dialect. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 08:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Possibly, on the other hand, teasing Americans was not the goal of the Solidaritätskundgebung am Brandenburger Tor. Both the US embassy and the BPA (which I guess is the de:Bundespresseamt) could have chosen better pictures to show the solidarity.

I had two reasons to mention it:

1. If I remember correctly again, a Berliner says machen, not maken, which would put Berlin north of the Benrath line, yet south of the Uerdingen line.
2. It is the only story somewhat close to the "jelly doughnut" myth that I had heard before reading about it on wikipedia (but then again, it was only mentioned when talking about the differences between Berlinerish and High German).

Googling for "Ick bin ein Berliner" (with the quotes) only gave links to blogs when I first read the article. When I found a (hardly) better source, I decided to ask on the talk page. Erik Warmelink (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

"Ick bin ein Berliner" would be half dialect, half Hochdeutsch. A dialect speaking Berlin citizen would say "Ick bin een Berlina". Therefor I agree with the assumption above, it's most likely mocking "American German". Sneeka2 (talk) 05:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

"Ick bin ein Amerikaner" is clearly a return of JFK's statement of solidarity. As both Berliners and Americans are well known for their inability to pronounce "Ich" correctly, the use of "ick" emphasises the parallel. If it was intended to tease Americans it would use "Isch/Ish" rather than "Ick". (I'm native german speaker btw)195.128.250.65 (talk) 23:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

You are aware that "Amerikaner" is a pastry, too? It looks like this:

http://images.google.de/images?hl=de&um=1&sa=1&q=amerikaner&btnG=Bilder-Suche&aq=f&oq= —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.135.98.74 (talk) 14:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources don't back up statement.

I removed "Although it has no basis in fact, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC[8], The Guardian[9], MSNBC[10], CNN[11], Time magazine[12], and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors, including Norman Davies[13]." If you follow those links, you will not find any mention of President Kennedy or jelly doughnuts. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, and I really don't mean to be rude, but did you even pay attention to the links? The footnoted links do mention Kennedy and jelly doughnuts. It is a little above halfway down in the BBC link, and at the very bottom on the CNN link. Watch the movie on the MSNBC link. It clearly provides the incorrect translation almost halfway through. Comments by random people below it are both right and wrong. The third paragraph in the Time article mentions the myth without expanation. The Guardian article, however does say that the myth is false. I will be reinstating the section without the Guardian. I do not know about the book. Regards, Reywas92^Talk 03:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Reywas's reversion restored some OR that I had previously removed, and deleted quotation marks that were quite proper. I have reverted to a previous version of the article. Robert K S (talk) 03:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I sit corrected. I took out the internal links (which I had assumed were the proper sources) and hope they will stay out, since they confuse the reader and are really not necessary. Anybody who reads this article should already know these news organisations. Mea culpa. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 07:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"In fact, the statement is both grammatically correct[3] and perfectly idiomatic, and cannot be misunderstood in context." It's not a fact. The fact is that it has been misunderstood in context. Otherwise, this whole argument would not be here.157.127.124.14 (talk) 16:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. It has been misunderstood by Americans. The fact the the speech was given in berlin, and the myth is not even known of by most Germans seems to indicatate that it can't be misunderstood in context. It CAN be misunderstood perhaps if you misunderstand the context.--66.153.117.118 (talk) 18:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Not an urban legend

He actually said I am a jelly dough nut. Ich bin Berliner is the correct phrase. this needs to be redone... after discussion of course. At the very least we have to present this neutral as well as the parenthetical translation needs to be correct. Superbowlbound (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It had been discussed, see archives. You presented no new argument for an appeal. Note that you have to persuade a jury of a dozen Berlin residents that watch this page, so chances are verrry low. Guidod (talk) 01:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It could just as easily be claimed that someone saying "I am a New Yorker." was calling themself a magazine. So no, he was not calling himself a jelly donut. 70.49.90.14 (talk) 05:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

On a similar note, Time makes fools of us all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.153.117.118 (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

 >> saying you are A New Yorker is just that, in English; this bears no comparison to German language expression. Joe Chop (talk) 16:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC) Joe Chop

actually saying "ich bin ein Berliner" sounds stronger in a speech than just saying "Ich bin Berliner", although it might be gramatically wrong. For the average german speaker this only adds the double meaning of doughnut/citizen from berlin, so unless you are higly educated in german language you would not waste your brainpower on thinking about what is correct, so there is no such urban legend in german speaking countrys. I sometimes joke about kennedy being a doughnut because were i come from these doughnut are called berliners, but if you walk into a bakery in berlin and ask for a "berliner", there is a good chance they have no idea what you are talking about, as they are called "pfannkuchen" here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.188.160.153 (talk) 17:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

 >> ;_; boy that was really mixed up 86.137.14.104 (talk) 00:56, 13 June 2009 (UTC)Joe Chop

The comparison to saying "I am a New Yorker" is a false one. No one questions Kennedy's intent, nor how it was received, since his intent was clear. However, grammatically, taking the ambiguous and not grammatically correct route make the "urban legend" accurate. I always heard, from native German speakers, no less, that, technically, he was saying "jelly donut." NOT that it was taken that way. The most grammatically correct use is "Ich bin Berliner." However, the most grammatically correct use IS "I am a New Yorker" - so that comparison is completely invalid. A more proper comparison would be if a German came and said "I am THE New Yorker."

Pointing out that no one misunderstood him, is quite different from saying "this is completely false..." particularly when it ISN'T completely false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.154.3.201 (talk) 20:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above, that the "urban legend" is not false, but completely accurate. My mother is a native German speaker, and she laughed during the speech because of it. (She also happens to have a Master's degree in German, but she's told me that her friends also laughed about the phrase after the speech; they all considered it a funny error by the US President.) 96.50.106.54 (talk) 01:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Moved from the article

• In 2007 Mongolia released a new 'talking' coin with JFK on the obverse which speaks the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner". Source Times Online

silly rabbit (talk) 11:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

That coin does not talk. The phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" is simply declared on the coin next to Kennedy's effigy. Read your souces more carefully please. Alandeus (talk) 09:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Doughnut Calling

Is there still a debate on this? i gather it is understood now that Kennedy called himself a doughnut, and the point made above under "Not an urban legend" is poignant: if i say to an English speaker, "i am a Danish"* i will be taken for a visitor from slightly north of Germany, and naturally not for an iced pastry with apricot jelly in the middle. But the comparison is perfect, thus the grins on the faces of the crowd filmed during the speech. He could have spoken in Hamburg without disastrous effects and resulting debate, as a "hamburger" is just another pure American fiction (as are frankfurters, also a kind of comminuted retrieved-meat product). Still: nobody so far has been recorded entering a German baker's asking for a Kennedy - perhaps it's time.

• "ich bin ein Kopenhagener" would be a close literal translation to "i am a Danish", as these statements relate to the exact same pastry;

...and with regard to "I agree with the urban legend section, but...", i must make this correction: a pfann(pfanne=pan)kuchen(=cake) is, as you see, a pancake and not a dough nut!

Sorry, but your correction is wrong. The German language is varied enough that a single term may have a lot of regionally different meanings. Going by your pancake example: a "Pfannkuchen" can be a pancake, but also (e.g. in Berlin) a Berliner (pastry), or in Austria an Omelette. ~ a German native 21:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Joe Chop 'addendum': i see this debate is predicated on verifiable information/reliable sources etc. - may i point out that the only reliable source is the footage available; if you are not thoroughly conversant in German or think you must somehow defend a Nation's "honour" at any price then you are obfuscating the debate. Also: with regard to the New Yorker magazine comparison, it would be accurate to suppose the talker referred to themselves as The New Yorker -- And apologies to the Moderator, but in the summation box heading this debate, the first four points are either innacurate or ill informed. ..."infinitely unlikely" etc. i perceive as well, this is hardly edifying - the Future Of Debate looks grim.

... and i don't need to consult a dozen Berlin residents btw, i am (a!!) German. unsigned comment added by Joe Chop (talk • contribs) 16:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

... Eichhoff-schmeichoff: "If he says that Kennedy's phrase was correct, that should settle the matter..." is just more bulldozing, you won't convince any German speakers that's for sure;

@ ProhibitOnions: your comment regarding those with a smattering of German ironically applies to you, as i see you are from Newcastle -- and please check your spelling.[[Joe Chop]

Joe: we are just applying the Wikipedia policies on reliable sources and original research. Even if you are a native German speaker, that by itself does not qualify you to present your opinions as factual in this article. Sorry if this offends you, but it's the way Wikipedia works. Grover cleveland (talk) 19:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You're my new hero of analogies "I am a Danish" is the perfect analogue (from my limited German). I don't really have anything to add, I'd never heard the doughnut thing before visiting here but my German teacher (a native teaching me a basic course in technical german, but also a teacher of post A-level students) did point out that the use of ein in this instance was wrong; I made that mistake so many times! pbhj / 91.108.172.2 (talk) 22:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Guys, please stop speculating and read the Eichhoff article! Eichhoff is not only a native German speaker but a professional expert on the German lanaguage. If he says that Kennedy's phrase was correct, that should settle the matter, unless someone can find a comparable source to contradict him. (And by a "comparable source" we do NOT mean someone who has taken a few German lessons in high school!) Grover cleveland (talk) 14:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

All of this has already been discussed, including the above "I am a danish" insight. Have a look in the talk archives. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 08:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the urban legend section, but...

I don't think it is being completely fair to say that it has NO basis in fact. The article admits that there is a pastry called a Berliner and it is known in many parts of Germany as that. The understanding of the German language and the Berlin dialect are what is wrong with the urban legend. Maybe I am being nit-picky, and I realize that myths have to be treated carefully, but a kernel of truth doesn't equal "no basis in fact" no matter how wrong something is.--66.153.117.118 (talk) 18:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree here; the phrase "no basis in fact" suggests to me that the article is getting defensive of JFK. The article itself mentions that in stating one's place of origin it is typical to omit the indefinite article in German; is that not a basis in fact, even if the conclusion is incorrect? --146.201.154.162 (talk) 05:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, the user who reverted the article after I removed the phrase cited as his reason "until myths become facts, it has no basis in fact." Such an argument is completely invalid; nearly all myths have some basis in fact. I believe such a statement is both a misunderstanding of what a myth is (and truly, this "urban legend" is not even a myth) and a misunderstanding of what a basis in fact is. To state that a story has no basis in fact is quite different from stating that it is untrue. I don't want to start an edit war here, but the article should not have been reverted.--146.201.154.162 (talk) 05:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe the edit I just made created a more accurate phrasing; it is a fact that in parts of Germany there is a pastry called a Berliner, so the legend has a basis in some kind of fact, no matter how erroneously interpreted.--SockEat (talk) 03:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

actually saying "ich bin ein Berliner" sounds stronger in a speech than just saying "Ich bin Berliner", although it might be gramatically wrong. For the average german speaker this only adds the double meaning of doughnut/citizen from berlin, so unless you are higly educated in german language you would not waste your brainpower on thinking about what is correct, so there is no such urban legend in german speaking countrys. I sometimes joke about kennedy being a doughnut because were i come from these doughnut are called berliners, but if you walk into a bakery in berlin and ask for a "berliner", there is a good chance they have no idea what you are talking about, as they are called "pfannkuchen" here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.188.160.153 (talk) 18:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(Beating dead horses is fun)

I'm born and raised in Berlin and I can assure you the article as it stands now is correct, although I find the whole donut discussion a huge waste of time. Yes, there is a pastry called "Berliner", although it is *not* called Berliner in Berlin itself, it's called a Pfannkuchen. That's why for people from Berlin, there is a clear difference between "Ich bin ein Berliner" and "Ich bin ein Pfannkuchen". On the other hand, people from other areas in Germany do get a pretty obvious double meaning there, and it is mildly funny. Not as in rolling on the floor laughing funny, more "next joke please" funny. Note that many German words for people from a town are also names of food in German, compare Frankfurter (sausage), Wiener (also a sausage), Hamburger (beef patty in bread, although the pronunciation is different)...

As for "Ich bin Berliner", yes, that sentence is "safe" as the little grammatical difference means that it does not carry the double meaning. On the other hand, Kennedy wanted express that people can take pride in their heritage, and that is only carried by the sentence "Ich bin ein Berliner", not by "Ich bin Berliner". That is why the sentence "Ich bin Berliner" would not have had the same effect as "Ich bin ein Berliner".

To sum it up, yes, Kennedy said something that could be misunderstood as "I am a jelly donut", and yes, it's funny, but that does make the historical importance of these words any less. --Mkill (talk) 09:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

hm the debate seems now to be about whether Kennedy called himself a pancake or a doughnut; i would like to know what the Berliner call a pancake, because it's surely not Pfannkuchen! i'll probably hear some more krapfen on this. By the way, i think it rather immature for there to be a Big Pink Panel with a warning hand informing us of what to think, placed so as to catch the eye before reading on. i ask that this be removed in the interest of fairness and democracy; and i noticed how the fantastical claim of infinite unlikelihood has changed, moderated maybe, to one of extreme... Mkill, check your meaning *loools/points* "and yes, it's funny, but that does make the historical importance of these words any less">> Joe Chop (talk) 11:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Joe Chop (talk) 01:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC) Joe Chop

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.100.209 (talk) 23:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC) 

I would like to point out that in most parts of Germany this kind of pastry is not known as "Berliner". In the eastern parts - including Berlin - this kind of pastry ist traditionally called "Pfannkuchen". The word "Krapfen" is used in the south, particularly in Bavaria. (Maybe nowadays you can hear "Krapfen" sometimes also in the capital, but it is neither the traditional word nor common there.) In the centre of the country this kind of pastry is called "Kräppel". Therefore many Germans definitely could not misunderstand Kennedy and even were not able to understand such kind of a joke. (I refer to my personal experience as a native German and to "dtv-Atlas Deutsche Sprache", 13th edition 2001, Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, München, page 240, on the words "Krapfen/Pfannkuchen/Berliner".) --95.116.89.149 (talk) 22:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Context is critical. "I am a New Yorker" spoken in in Nebraska would mean I am a denizen of NYC, and generally would not mean that I am a magazine, or a car, or, oddly enough, that I am a denizen of New York State or of Hamburg, NY. However, in Omaha, "I am a Hamburger" means I'm claiming to be a burger, either insanely or in some sort of metaphorical way (you are what you eat?). however

There are native speakers who were residents of Berlin at the time the speech and got a chuckle out of the possible double meaning. Though they may not call certain doughnuts "Berliners" they know the use of the term

As for the pat tone of the warning at the top of this page "Kennedy did not say 'I am a donut'. Period," it is abusive and, dare I say it, fascist. It is also false is some respects, period: "Ich bin ein Berliner"--, especially spoken to a national or world audience as JFK surely was, has more than one possible meaning. One of those meanings is "I am a jelly donut." Under the circumstances it was apparently not intended as a joke or some sort of weird food metaphor, it also did not mean that Kennedy was, in fact, a citizen or resident of Berlin, as they knew he was not. Instead it was meant and understood as a metaphorical claim of fraternity and solidarity between all free people and the people of Berlin.

Origins of Donut Legend

I wonder how old the story is, and how it got started. If someone has access to old copies of the Reader's Digest, it should appear in one of the humor-in-real-life columns, possibly in the 1970's, or early 1980's. The way I remember it, the submitter claimed his/her parent was told the story by a tour bus operator in Berlin. SlowJog (talk) 15:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. If anyone can find that entry in The R.D., I think she/he would also note that the tour guide said that the people who heard the speech took the meaning J.F.K. intended. They were caught up in the enthusiasm and emotion of the speech, and did not notice the mistake. SlowJog (talk) 21:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The earliest mention in the article is the 1983 Len Deighton novel. It would seem plausible that the purely fictional mention of the doughnut story in the novel gradually got confused for a true story. Grover cleveland (talk) 04:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

If anyone can research old copies of The Reader's Digest and find it, it would be interesting to see if it was before the Len Deighton novel. SlowJog (talk) 19:08, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The "Kölsch" translation is wrong

The "jelly donut" story makes not sense, that's correct. "Ich bin ein Berliner" could have been misunderstood as "I am a jelly-filled donut" - but only if during one the most emotional times in Berlin and one of the most important speeches (from a Berliner point of view) by the most powerful person in the world, talking about world politics for 90 minutes, someone was only thinking about something to eat... Well, in short: It makes no sense at all.

However, if the "Ich bin ein Kölsch" story by Bill Clinton is true, he did make a mistake: A "Kölsch" is only the beer, definitely not an inhabitant of Cologne, who is still called "ein Kölner" (or maybe "ein Kölsche Jung" or something like that) - but "ein Kölsch" can never be confused, especially in a bar. When the bar man doesn't react on "bring mir ein Kölsch" (bring me a beer!!!), he gets killed :-) Sorry, Bill... but I guess everyone was happy and laughed, and no-one felt offended by the mistake.

For my reputation, I am a native speaker of German and have lived here for all of my life. --62.54.12.70 (talk) 17:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

————

In 1999, President Cliton was in Cologne. He wanted to say in German: "I am a Cologne". In German there are two variants: "Ich bin ein Kölner" (the standrad German variant) or "Ich bin ein kölsche Jung" (translate: I'am a boy from Colonge, this is normaly use by people from Cologne). But the President mixed both and said: "Ich bin ein Kölsch" (translate: I´m a Beer). —Preceding unsigned comment moved here from article by Alandeus (talk • contribs) 15:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

References in popular culture & Obama?

Why? why is this comment in this article. Reagan's speech is not include, and so why has Obama. I like him, I just think that including it here is not needed. As a US President Reagan's speech had more connection to Kennedy's then does Obama's. To me this looks like propaganda. --68.231.54.78 (talk) 09:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

As is explained in the inline comment in the article, we cannot add every instance where someone references the phrase. Therefore I've removed the section on Obama to here. Please don't put it back, because then we would have to add every place where anyone has ever referenced the legend (and this one is particularly un-notable).

In anticipation of a speech to be given by presumptive U.S. Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama in Berlin on July 24, 2008, at least one U.S. news source candidly referred to Mr. Obama's potential mangling of the phrase as "Ich bin ein Beginner!"

Another editor has questioned the removal of the Obama reference, so I'll repeat the reply that I originally posted on my talk page:

As far as I can see, the reference to Obama is simply one commentator on Fox News making a rather unfunny joke, which seems to have originated in the right-wing blogosphere. It's not as though Obama said it himself. I can't see how this is something to "merit particular attention and relevance". Even the Clinton reference to beer is arguably more notable, since the former president is alleged to have said the words himself (although I don't think the Clinton reference belongs in the article either). Grover cleveland (talk) 04:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Popular culture

While sometimes Wikipedia seems like SimpsonPedia, or USPresidentialCandidatePedia, it is not. Accordingly, I have moved these factoids from the article. Please make a case for their inclusion here. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 16:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Material moved from article

For example, in anticipation of a speech to be given by U.S. Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama in Berlin on July 24, 2008, a cartoonist on the website townhall.com depicted Obama saying "Ich bin ein beginner".. The joke was repeated on Fox News by commentator Brit Hume.

On The Simpsons, Grandpa said he knew "Kennedy's dark secret." In the subsequent flashback Kennedy is standing on the bow of the pt boat PT-109 during World War II and says "''Ich bin ein berliner''" after which Grandpa yells "Nazi!" and pushes him overboard.

Ensuing discussion

I am of the opinion that these do not belong in the article; these are the kinds of things you see in lists of miscellaneous information at the ends of articles that aren't particularly good. It is not the aim of wikipedia to make reference to every joke included in the Simpsons, nor to include every detail of what happens to be the current presidential campaign in the United States.--66.32.247.67 (talk) 06:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Verification of Berlin game quote

An anon IP recently changed a quoted passage in the text. I have verified that the original statement was correct (prior to the change). Here is a google books link to a snippet containing the quote in question. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 21:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiquote

Why not link to the text at Wikiquote [1] instead of some other source? --JensMueller (talk) 20:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• We already link to wikisource, in the box in the external links section. The one external link with the speech is redundant, I'd keep it for the pictures and for a second audio source, but feel free to remove it if you disagree. --Amalthea 17:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Reference problem

This text is given as a quotation:

Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut".

But the corresponding reference doesn't contain this exact quote at all. So where did it come from? It's all over the internet, but that seems to be because people are taking it from this page. Can anyone say where this pair of sentences originally came from? Lfh (talk) 11:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I should clarify that I am not talking about the "legend" itself - nobody wants to bring that up again - just the exact phrasing above, which appears to be original to Wikipedia. Lfh (talk) 12:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Urban Legend

Everyone keeps attacking the people who bring up whether the term Kennedy used is an urban legend, or it isn't. The problem is is that it is NO legend! Does anyone who dismisses new arguments actually speak German? President Kennedy said "I am a Berliner," although he did also say that he was a doughnut. Absurb, but correct. To imply that the speculation is a legend is to say that the sun and the moon and the earth are all urban legends.

All terms on the page referring to an "urban legend" should be replaced with something to the effect of "speculation" or "controversies." Change the term and all this will go away. Too much effort has been put into fending off discussion about the term when all of it could be avoided by a clarification of the flexible term. GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 02:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The "Urban Legend" is that Kennedy made an embarrassing mistake. I think the article explains this pretty well. Grover cleveland (talk) 03:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The point where the story stops being the truth and starts being an urban legend is: "made an embarrassing grammatical error". I am a native speaker of German. I spent most of my life in southern Germany, where jelly doughnuts are called "Berliner". But even as a child I learned (with no reference to Kennedy whatsoever) that in Berlin the same thing is always called a "Pfannkuchen" (literally "pancake") instead, sometimes in its long form "Berliner Pfannkuchen". This is generally known in Germany. People make jokes about it. And I don't just know it from the media, my wife lived in Berlin for three years and I have seen the inside of a lot of different bakeries there. They all called it "Pfannkuchen", including the Turkish ones.

These things are explained in sufficient detail in the big red box at the top of this article, and they are exactly right as explained. Moreover, they are sourced perfectly well, to a German source from Berlin. You may not be able to read it because it's in German, but obviously such information about the German language is most reliable when actually presented by German speakers.

Suppose President Obama visits Hamburg, and out of compassion for the poor people living there (who love English culture but are separated from their beloved England by the North Sea) says in English: "I am a Hamburger" (note the capitalisation). Then this will be a perfectly correct sentence that is not the least bit misleading or embarrassing. However, some people will think it funny to feign misunderstanding. Basically that's what happened in the Kennedy/Berliner case.

Kennedy said something that was perfectly OK and not funny at all. Nobody laughed at the time. Then his sentence was very widely reported. And then some people willfully misinterpreted him to be funny.

This could have been avoided if someone had thought of it beforehand. Most native speakers would not have thought of it before it happened. But perhaps they even anticipated that it could happen and decided that the fact that "Ich bin ein Berliner" scans slightly better than "Ich bin Berliner" was more relevant.

As to the term urban legend: As a native speaker of German I again have an advantage. Because in German the English term exists as a foreign term, and has exactly the same meaning as in English. It is the meaning that is described in our article urban legend. Hans Adler 17:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe that if the President of the United States of America meant to comically imply that he was a jelly doughnut, that that would most certainly be an urban legend. GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 17:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Quote "Does anyone [...] speak German?" Answer: there are dozens of Germans who have bookmarked this page and you will find that during the lengthy discussions above ALL of them agreed that the "jelly doughnut" interpretation is untrue. In other word: there is no controversy among native speakers. There is even no speculation that the legend started in the English-speaking world as the legend is largely unknown in German-speaking countries. No need to give that Urban Legend a chance to come out different than what it is so obviously. Guidod (talk) 20:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

December 2009 Vote on Removal of Urban Legend Language

I will remove all language from this article referring to an "urban legend" of the President's choice of words if there is no resolution by Tuesday 15 Decemeber 2009 12:00 PM PST. Here is the question (please respond "Aye", "No" or "Not Voting"):

Shall the "urban legend" language in this article remain in place ? GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

YES. It is indeed an urban legend. There is an article about this on the Urban Legends Reference Pages. The previous post makes no sense. Reywas92^Talk 02:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

YES. While it is NOT a normal legend, it is nevertheless an URBAN legend. Alandeus (talk) 07:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

YES. See above. And Wikipedia is full of native speakers of German like me, including some who live in Berlin and many from outside. If this article was as wrong as you suggest someone would have noticed by now. Hans Adler 17:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

NO. See section 17. Anyway, I appreciate the democratic process. However, the jihad-like effort to keep gray area language in this article is disturbing. The biggest point I wanted to make is it's not what the President's point was, but what he literally said. GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 17:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Even that is simply not true. "Berliner" (= doughnut) and "Berliner" (= inhabitant or native of Berlin) are homonyms just like "cell" and "cell". If you enter a terrorist cell it's one kind of cell, and if you enter a monk's cell it's a completely different word that's merely spelled and pronounced the same way. And in German if you eat or buy a Berliner it's one kind of Berliner, and if you are or greet a Berliner it's the other kind. You had better not confuse the two, or you might get into trouble. Hans Adler 19:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This section is dedicated to voting. What you're doing is a kind of electioneering; in any case, I really hope you don't think you're swaying my vote. Thank you. GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 20:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Might I remind the editors here, there is no voting when reaching consensus. Paranormal Skeptic (talk) 20:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There should never be a pure vote on Wikipedia. It should be a discussion, which is the purpose of the discussion page. While you may be too ignorant of the German (as there are many native and non-native speakers who know that what Kennedy said was "I am a person from Berlin") to realize that anything said about him referencing a doughnut is an utter falsehood, per the very numerous reasons that the President was correct and no one misunderstood him, we are providing reasons to make sure no one else thinks Kennedy is a jelly doughnut. Reywas92^Talk 20:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

KEEP, see above, clearly an Urban Legend, greetings from Berlin. Guidod (talk) 20:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

• A couple of you seem to be all geared up to argue this, and I have absolutely zero interest in getting in the way of that, but if I could interject with just a tiny bit of reason here... I'd like to bring up the point that since this is an encyclopedia entry, we as editors should not be editorializing on the content. We should be parroting what others say, not making value judgments about the content of what those people are saying. That some people hold a belief that the Kennedy speech had something to do with doughnuts seems rather self evident just from this talk page. Regardless of the truth of that, if a secondary source has talked about this at all then there should be something in the article about it. Wikipedia should not espouse fringe theories (or common theories, for that matter), but it shouldn't attempt to cover them up or directly refute them either. As editors we should of course minimize the coverage given to fringe theories, and we should provide statements which show that they are fringe theories, but it's not our place to directly refute or rebut these sorts of statements. Readers aren't stupid anyway, so if we do our work correctly here then there really shouldn't be any issue with this sort of thing.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ω) 20:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Well, it's a myth, it's busted, and it's vividly spreading on the "friend-of-a-friend" characteristic that is common to urban legends. Calling it an urban legend is simply referring to what it is based on the characteristics - so whatever might be called "personal judgement" is really just a correct deduction from the facts. And from my POV it is a neutral designation (compared to what it could be called as well - but the article text is a consensus that was worked hard upon and there has been no new argument presented so far that would make it look a good deed to stir up the discussions). Guidod (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

lede too long

Hi, the lede is too long compared to the rest of the article, and needs to be balanced to accurately summarise the article as a whole. I will add this to my long list of things to look at that never seem to get done. Brilliantine (talk) 01:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)