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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 153.18.112.37 (talk) at 23:09, 16 February 2010 (→‎Possible Reasons for Viking Expansion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Wales

How can you found a city through raiding? Inge 15:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify; the text tells us that "Wales was not colonised", but that "The Vikings, did, however, begin to settle in the southwest around St. David's and Haverfordwest, most of Gower and Glamorgan and through raids Sweyne Forkbeard founded the modern city of Swansea."
This will depend on how you define colonising, but when vikings settle in the area and no doubt they had trade connections with other viking settled territories that comes very close. I feel categorically stating that Wales was not colonised might be out of place. I also think it would be very difficult to found a city through raiding. A raid is a short engagement and a city is a very permanent institution. If a king is to found a city he has to have permanent control of the site. I would certainly like that part to be explained more. Did local people migrate to sites comonly raided by vikings? Not very likely. Or were they sites for seasonal marked places established or used by vikings? In that case raiding is the wrong word. Inge 18:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you. I've amended the paragraph to this:
Wales was not colonised by the Vikings as heavily as eastern England and Ireland. The Vikings did, however, settle in the south around St. David's, Haverfordwest, and Gower, among other places. Place names such as Skokholm, Skomer, and Swansea remain as evidence of the Norse settlement. The Vikings, however, did not subdue the Welsh mountain kingdoms.
By the way, I don't believe that Sweyn Forkbeard founded Swansea in the slightest or indeed that he ever went there. The derivation is undoubtedly from "Sweyn's ey" (Sweyn's island), but it's not as if the Vikings were short of other Sweyns to name settlements after. I should think Swansea was founded long before Forky's time.qp10qp 17:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've just added a section on the influence of Viking settlement on the English language. This may go some way to helping show that Norse settlers in England were assimilated by the local population, which they wouldn't have been if they were all marauders and pirates.qp10qp 19:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely done! The article Viking has those paragraphs as well including the problems you have corrected here. If you have the time maybe you could take a look there as well? Inge 11:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Expert needed

The article has previously been subject of reverts wars. Now it would need serious reference check and inline quotations. There are also a lot of {{Fact}} tags. / Fred-Chess 19:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Viking heritage of the Rurik dynasty

The Rurik dynasty's Viking heritage, alluded to here, is a topic of substantial controversy amongst Russian historians. I am not qualified to speak out on the subject but a professional historian of Russia should craft a more nuanced and informed statement on the subject.

Did Rurik found Novgorod?

Rurik most certainly did not found Novgorod in 859. In fact, archaelogy seems to suggest this town existed before Rurik was born. Goliath74 17:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge "Vikings" and "Viking Age"?

The articles Viking age and Vikings cover almost identical issues and should be merged. Any comments? Cheers Osli73 21:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The article "Viking" should only short describe what a Viking was, Modern revivals and Popular misconceptions and stuff like that. --Arigato1 22:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nooooo Viking age covers most of the attempted destruction of Western Europe by the Northmen not just the Svens and Ronalds themselves. Brendandh 20:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. They should not be merged. Vikings should be about the people. Viking Age should be a historical discussion that focuses on the events. --Einar 20:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add another Nooooo and agree with Einar. Brendandh 21:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No merge, but there is allot in "Vikings" like historical event witch should be deleted and removed to "Viking age". --Arigato1 21:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear all, Let me explain the reason for my proposal again. The reason I suggested a merge is that the Viking Age is typically the name given to the historical period (roughly 800-1050 or so) in Scandinavian history. So, if the article is to discuss the Viking age it should really be discussing the history of the Scandinavian countries during this period. However, as is, the article Viking Age currently focuses mainly on events during this period in the countries they 'visited'. In my mind it would be a lot better to just have a single article called Vikings, explaining who they were and their effects on other European countries. The article would then not deal with the Viking Age in any of the Scandinavian countries. I doubt most readers will see the fine line between Vikings and Viking Age. I'm sorry if this upsets a lot of people who have put a lot of work into either of the two articles. However, I think that 'specialist topics' (effects of the Vikings on a specific country, such as present day UK) can be covered more in detail in separate, linked, articles. Regards Osli73 10:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When i think again, i agree with you. There is no such thing as the "Viking age", you can say the "Viking time" (witch only is a term), but not "Viking age" -that's only make the hole article confusing. Vikings were people from Scandinavia during a period of the "Iron age". I have never heard the expression "Viking age" before i readed en.wikipedia.
I agree in merging with Vikings. --Arigato1 20:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They were indeed not. the majority of people from scandinavia were actually not vikings. The term has been misunderstodd in english language, and although a populair belief, Vikings wre not of a special gegraphical origin, it was an activity, which very few scandinavians really took part of. No ethinical group can be labelled vikings. In fact, in some icelandic sagas, arabian pirats are refered to as vikings, and they were not born in scandinavia. Dan Koehl 23:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, technically I guess the Viking age was a part of the Iron age. However, at least in Sweden, the Viking age is an accepted term for the period 800-1050. However, I'm not so sure it was an 'age' in European history. Cheers Osli73 21:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree-- The "Viking" article covers a completely different aspect, and as such, should not be merged. Nol888(Talk)(Review me please) 21:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a thing called the Viking Age. I'm from Denmark and we use the term: Viking Age. Not Iron Age or Dark Ages. I guess this is because we're kind of proud of our past as vikings. We're proud that a little nation like Denmark were able to conquer all the big nations of the time (England, Norway, Sweden). Just a thought :-) Simon 16:12, 9 April 2007

  • I agree in merging with Vikings.

--Vchorozopoulos (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lot's to improve in this article

Even for an amateur historian of the Viking age it is quite apparent that this article generally is of rather low quality. Some of the more striking faults:

  1. the introduction fails to give the generally accepted time period of the Vikinga age (800-1050)
  2. the 'Viking Age' as a historical period is really only used to describe the period in Scandinavia. Eg while the 'Viking age' is a period is in Swedish history it is not so in say French, German or Russian history.
  3. A lot of what is written in this article fits better into the Vikings article. In fact, I would suggest merging the two articles.
  4. There are relatively few sources/references to the text.
  5. The article is too Anglo-centric with very little mention of the effects of the Vikings on Russia and the Baltics.

Osli73 16:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vikings in England.

'Most of the English kingdoms, being in turmoil, could not stand against the Vikings, but Alfred of Wessex managed to keep the Vikings out of his country.'

The Vikings did infact take most of Wessex, except for the marshland around Athelny. It was here that Alfred the Great sat out the winter before mustering an army and defeating the Danes at the Battle of Ethandune, which most likely took place in Wiltshire, around the area of Westbury Hillfort, which would have been far inside to boundaries of the old kingdom of Wessex, infact the entire county of Wiltshire which also includes Chippenham would have been deep inside the boundaries of the old Kingsom of Wessex during the Viking invasions.

After defeating the Danes at Ethandune (Edington), Alfred pirsued the Danes to Chippenham and beseiged them in his own town. After being forced into starvation, the Danes sued for peace and signed the Treaty of Wedmore which lead to the setting up of the Danelaw. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by VelaPulsar (talk • contribs) 15:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]


I agree. This paragraph as well sounds rather strange  :

"The Vikings did not get everything their way. In one situation in England, a small Viking fleet attacked a rich monastery at Jarrow. The Vikings were met with stronger resistance than they expected: their leaders were killed, the raiders escaped, only to have their ships beached at Tynemouth and the crews killed by locals. This was one of the last raids on England for about 40 years. The Vikings instead focused on Ireland and Scotland"

This should be cleaned up. 155.55.60.110 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 10:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC).[reply]

What is the Viking Age really about, and what should this page be about?

The Viking Age is a historical period for Scandinavia. Even though the effects of Vikings' influences and affairs around Europe is interesting, and an important part of the overall story, the Viking Age entry contains very little of Scandinavian Society, economics, politics, culture or anything else regarding life in the area. Archaeologically, the Viking Age is more of a contuination of earlier periods, but mark altogheter the start of the transition of Scandinavia into medieval christian states. The currrent page is more about in what way and what effects migration and travels of Scandinavians had on other parts of Europe, than about the Scandinavians of the Viking Age itself... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by St12357 (talk • contribs) 15:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I agree. The Viking period was an important part of the history of Scandinavia however this article fails to mention much about Scandinavia itself during this time. I would think that additional information would be needed to expand this article to elaborate on not only the Vikings themselves but also the society, culture and history of Scandinavia itself from the years 800 to 1050. Wikidudeman (talk) 13:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Neutrality disputed, viking palliation

The article states:

"The traditional definition is no longer accepted by most Scandinavian historians and archaeologists."

This describes all. Danish-Scandinavian "Experts" would not accept any negative statement. The really convincing, radical cleaning of any negative aspects in the viking age, but also ALL related articles violates neutrality. See for example Annales Vedastini, who described cruelty, mass-murder, raping and kidnapping, stealing and a simply not seen violence.

Compared to the difficulty to accept this, it seems not too difficult to change all content in Wikipedia.

Before the friends of Denmark and Scandinavia edit-war started, there were for example the introduction:


The Viking Age is the name of the period between 793 and 1066 AD in Scandinavia and Britain, following the Germanic Iron Age (and the Vendel Age in Sweden). During this period, the Vikings, Scandinavian warriors, leidangs and traders, raided and explored most parts of Europe, south-western Asia, northern Africa and north-eastern North America. Apart from exploring Europe by way of its oceans and rivers with the aid of their advanced navigational skills and extending their trading routes across vast parts of the continent, they also engaged in warfare and looted and enslaved numerous Christian communities of Medieval Europe for centuries, contributing to the development of feudal systems in Europe, which included castles and barons (and was a defense against Viking raids).


Compare this to the current version. Include negative facts! It is important, to explain information neutral. Even if its negative. Please help. W. Wispanow 19:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC) rere[reply]

Probably someone can translate the dates related to the viking attacks in french:

Other sources:

  • Chronicon (work by Regino von Prüm)
  • Reginonis chronica
  • Einhardi vita Karoli
  • Annales Bertiniani
  • Annales Xantenses
  • Annales Vedastini
  • Annales Fuldenses
  • Widukind von Korvei, Bovo von Korvei

This are FACTS. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which tries to focus on the positive reign of Alfred the Great, didn´t state cruelty. W. Wispanow 20:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • Hello, there are historical considerations in the article, and I fail to see how the neutrality of these sourced facts could be disputed? I agree that the article needs a lot of work but it doesn’t justify tagging the article like it has been done. So please consider removing it. Please note that the WP policies are going to be followed strictly. Meaning anything that is not backed up with reliable sources can and will be challenged by any editor any time. Since the tag you've added is not backed up by any refs but only with unsourced opinions, the tag can and will be removed any time by any editor and replaced with more appropriate one if felt necessary. So please feel free to cite any sources that back up the claim the tag referrers to.

PS. Regarding the previous introduction that mostly referred to the negative then this indeed was not a neutral way to start an article. Please refer to any source that would back up the claim: the current opening of the article could be interpreted as being not neutral. Thanks! --Termer 08:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out that virtually every people has some skeletons in the closet and we do well to point that out. Balance is vital in Wikipedia. This reads like a whitewash -- a sort of "yes, but" apologia that would never be tolerated from, say, the Germans. Doesn't mean you can't be proud of your heritage, but let's keep it real, okay? --Rhombus 01:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the destruction of the Abbey church on Lindisfarne for example reads like a whitewash? So far I haven't seen any specific arguments supporting "keep it real" claims. Please feel free to point out specific issues, in case not replied, the tag is going to be removed. Thanks--Termer 03:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clean-Up

OK guys, lets clean this thing up. It doesn't seem to me like the problem is that much of the Neutrality but some sections are just...It might be me but these read like written by a grade school student. (sorry) The first thing I'd do, get rid of the Historical background and Probable causes of Viking expansion...Actually everything below that seems to be another not that well written article that dubs the Viking. So, once it's about the Viking age, it should be about the Viking age only, meaning just an article like Middle age or Iron Age. What could be here would be a section of archeology perhaps. So if it was up to me, I'd get rid of everything that's starts from Historical background. If anything additionally informative (Not that I noticed anything) can be found, it should be added to Viking article. The text in the article from Historical background on doesn't cite any sources anyway so it's easy to be challenged and simply removed if felt necessary. So, please let me know what you think! thanks --Termer 07:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't it be better to move stuff from viking and put it here? In my opinion it is.
Fred-J 11:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely, since a lot of the article in viking does not exactly refer to vikings, but to scandinavian people in general during viking age. Dan Koehl (talk) 18:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Portal icon placement

FYI, you can add a link to Portal:Norway in this article, by placing {{Portal|Norway|Nuvola Norwegian flag.svg}} at the top of the see also section (or the external links section if the article has no see also section). This will display

Cirt (talk) 09:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a troll on this page. Some one has inserted references to Kobe Bryant and radiator caps at random. These need to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.26.212.72 (talk) 12:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article name discussion "Viking age".

There is no age called "viking age" The time of the vikings were during the Germanic iron age. Also in Scandinavian languages there is nothing called viking age. Now I'm Danish, and in Danish it's called "vikingetiden (the viking time)" or just "jernalderen (the iron age)"

This should be merged with the article "Vikings" or atleast changed the name, i think

--Missip1 (talk) 20:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Viking Age is the official academic translation of the Scandinavian historical period called "Vikingetiden". "Viking time" is just bad English.--Saddhiyama (talk) 21:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But meybe it's wrong to call it an age. Since it's not even called that in Scandinavian languages. It's a period in the Middle Ages. --Tesko111111 (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not true. It is called the "Viking Age" in the Scandinavic languages. In Scandinavic history it is a distinct historical period situated between the Iron Age and the Middle Ages. --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter what it's called in Scandinavia, it's called "Viking Age" in English, and this is English Wikipedia (WP:NAME). --dab (𒁳) 21:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

nothing called "viking age" in britannica etc. what's you point? This article should either be merged with viking or be renamed in my pov. --Tesko111111 (talk) 23:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(a) go to google scholar / google books. (b) search for "viking age". (c) see how there are numerous scholarly monographs discussing the "Viking Age". One example out of dozens, if not hundreds, would be Eric Christiansen The Norsemen in the Viking Age, Blackwell Publishing, 2002, ISBN 9780631216773. You do not have a case. Please do some minimal research before starting a "discussion". --dab (𒁳) 08:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Google :S. Is that a souce now. Maybe you should have a look of the own link you gave me. --Tesko111111 (talk) 09:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
GoogleBooks lists potential sources for this article. Search for "viking age" on GoogleBooks and you'll see the term is used quite often in recently published books. You might be able to track down of those listed at your local library.--Celtus (talk) 04:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Google :S. Is that a souce now." -- it is impossible to discuss anything on such an abysmal level. No, google isn't a source. It is an index which may be used for finding sources. You may also use a library catalogue, or a spirit medium, it really doesn't matter how you found the source just as long as you can cite it properly. --dab (𒁳) 18:50, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Focus!

This article has problems which won't go away, unless rethought from the start: There is something called "the viking age", whether or not certain people like the term. However, in writing an article called "Viking Age", one has to have some rather well-defined idea of what to describe. Wouldn't a large part of the current article be better off in a separate article named "Viking Conquests", while others would fit better under "Viking Exploits" or some such?

The Viking Age is a period of time in Scandinavian history, the transition between the Iron Age with its Vanetro (a shamanistic-pantheistic sort of religion) to the Dark Ages' Kristendom (litteraly "Christianity", but shouldn't be confused with the present day variety; it was at best a mystic-monotheistic religion, its rituals conducted in latin, which nobody -sometimes not even the priest- understood). From a time without letters or writing, to one in which written documents (the law, say) were of the utmost importance. A time where indivdual physical prowess gave way to tactics and technology.

It was in many ways the transition from a "me-and-you" mindset to an "us-and-them" mindset.

There's a lot of reasons this period is so important to us Scandinavians. But when it comes to Wikipedia, there's one overriding concern: Does this article enlighten, or confuse, people who've never heard of the viking age before? As it stands, I wouldn't blame someone who went away thinking the vikings were slavic scots that sailed up and down the Seine in order to trade with Constantinople. And burn down an irish monastery on the way.

So, what do I suggest? Situating the time and place (Scandinavia, 8th-11th century AD) and sticking to it. Mentioning/listing the vikings' conquests, and linking to separate articles of the vikings' exploits in present day countries. Describing the religion (well, what we know of it), the building style(s), the everyday tools possessed, and possibly listing the notables (the kings and queens, as well as the major failed usurpers).

Basically, I think it's best to follow Lucan's advice: Keep it simple. Keep the end in sight. Better to omit what's of questinable usefulness, than to toss in an old norse parleur for good measure...

Smolk (talk) 05:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from your theories about the different religions I mostly agree with the suggestion. I think that perhaps some of the confusion expressed by the user in the discussion above this one regarding the existence of a Viking Age, could have sprung from this. It is important to clarify that the historical time periods are different from country to country, and that there actually is a distinct Viking Age in Scandinavian history, and that the ending and beginning of common periods like the Iron Age and the Middle Ages vary from country to country. Also to your list of sections it would also be good to have a section about the society of the Viking countries, ie social structure, main forms of livelihoods etc, which would probably be more useful than a section on everyday tools. Be aware that the list of notables could quickly become an area of dispute though, and should probably also be a very rough introduction to the general history of the period instead. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The primary reason that I'd want something on the tools available to the vikings is that there seems to be some consensus that their ships went out of fashion with the advent of the saw. Secondarily, I mostly think history in terms of tools and technology. Smolk (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Reasons for Viking Expansion

I teach medieval history at De Anza College (which doesn't necessarily establish my credibility, I realize); however, various sources suggest that trade between the Vikings and Muslim Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphates via the Caspian Sea produced large inflows of high-quality silver Dirham coins (as evidenced by large caches of Islamic coins found in Scandinavia).

There is a possible correlation (established by the mining dates on the coins found in buried Scandinavian caches) of the tapering off of these specie inflows with an increase of Viking raids.

In other words, as the Abbasid 'Empire' started to fragment (losing control of precious metals and tax revenue from different areas, (i.e. Spain, Egypt, Khorasan) and as output from existing mines dropped, so did the volume of money reaching the Vikings, which may have caused them to seek other sources of gold and silver...

This is probably too tidy, too linear in outline: 'no silver from Islamic world, so attack Western Europe', BUT, to a certain extent there might be a little bit of truth to it, perhaps it was a contributing factor.

In my opinion, it does deserve some mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guerre1859 (talk • contribs) 03:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Er, citation needed. What I could find[2] questions this chronology: Viking raids into Western Europe were occurring in the 790s, before their trade with the Caliphates in the 900s. Also, while those raiding Western Europe and those trading with the Caliphates were both Norse, they were not the same people. Fences&Windows 20:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, citation is needed, however, the source you cite does not, as far as I see, contradict a linkage between a breakdown in Islamic-Viking trade and invasions, as Dr. Hussain writes of the Dirhams: "They are thin, made from silver and date from the Abbasid caliphate, which existed from the 8th to 13th century"; if the first Viking attack is usually given as the raid on Lindisfarne in 793 but attacks continued well into the 900s, there is considerable overlap in time.

Finally, the argument that they were not the same people (raiding in the West and trading in the East) is no logical impediment to the theory, because the Dirhams still circulated within the Norse cultural zone and there is no necessary logic why the traders have to be directly involved in raiding...Economic shocks can be communicated across large distances and at second, third, or fourth hand, that is true today and was true in the past, just like Chinese trade with the USA can impact Australia, without the USA necessarily having contact with Australia (eg. American capital investment fueling a boom in China causing massive importation of Australian iron ore--or to make the analogy even more explicit: the cessation or drastic tapering off of US investment in China having a knock-on effect on Australia, leading to great changes in the Australian economy, which would not be directly restricted to the iron extraction, because the money inflows generated by the trade in its heyday would have rippled outwards across many sectors of the Australian economy, so that, perhaps, at the end of the day, we would find Australian prostitutes leaving the now impoverished mining ghost towns, and emigrating to a new 'El Dorado', say, Angola...just as Swedish Rus Vikings trading with the Muslims across the Caspian, could have had knock-on effects on their Norwegian and Danish brethren.

A thoughtful comment should also be thoughtfully dismissed, and with adequate, serious documentation, not a 'fluff' feature article. If Hussain presented statistical correlations and analyses of the Dirhams based on date, purity, location of minting, then he would be authoritative.

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