Talk:Oolong

Assorted topics

What exactly is "milk oolong"? I can't find it anywhere on wikipedia, maybe this would be the right place.

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Theres a photo labeled "Tieguanyin". The word Tieguanyin does not appear anywhere else in the article. Seems like there should be something to link the photo to the article, besides the fact that the photo is clearly of some kind of most likely oolong tea. --Rektide 00:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It's just an alternative transliteration of Tiě Guān Yīn, the spelling used in the article. I've changed it to match now. --Oolong 18:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

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In section "Processing of Oolong" I have changed the description of Shaqing from fried (which implies cooking in oil) to dried in a large pan and stirred. I don't think my phrasing is ideal but it is better than fried. --Gary

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Most of the tea literature I've read uses ferment and oxidize interchangeably. Are you sure one is more correct than the other? --Wmorgan

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Scientifically, yes... see the Tea web page for more. I think it's an affectation inherited from Wine(ers) :-) -- NickelKnowledge

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After looking at the definitions of these two terms, I concur. There's no (intentional) processing by microorganisms or gaseous release, so fermentation is not the correct term.--Wmorgan

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It's not "correct" term, but it's one traditionally used to describe this process. --Taw

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Due to the confusion, I have help removed all ferment term and use oxidize instead. Tea leaf can be fermented, as any organic stuff with nutrients. When Tea leaf is fermented, it means fungi is growth on it. The fermentation will destroy the tea. --sltan

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Traditions change, and this one is in the process of changing. I've seen both terms used interchangeably in tea production/distribution circles. --MTR (严加华) 17:55, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've never heard of Oolong referred to as "yellow" or "red" ("red" as "black tea" in Chinese, like PuEr, I assume; the whole terminology is very confusing during translation). Could the author please explain the comment? Thanks! --achou 06:26, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

I have never heard of oolong tea referred to as yellow or red tea in Chinese either. --Kjscn

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This line has been removed. Taiwan doesn't possess mutual oolong preparation technique compare to mainland China. The finest oolong tea in the world arguably comes from Taiwan.

This line has been removed. It should follow the term use by Chinese tea expert. Sometimes it is referred to as "yellow" or "red" tea. --sltan

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This line is removed . This simple process can never make oolong. Oolong tea leaves are bruised after picking and left to oxidize in the sun, though not as long as leaves intended for black tea. sltan

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I'm a bit puzzled by the reference to a 'black thread-like appearance' - in my experience, oolong leaves are almost always rolled into balls, not as tightly as gunpowder green but never 'thread-like' until they're brewed. Someone help me out? Oolong

Quality tea from Wuyi usually has that appearance, but it can be rolled; for example Huang Guanyin tea from Wuyi can be either rolled into tight balls or thread like. South Fujian teas can also be thread like as not all are rolled. Guangdong Oolong teas are also thread like. --Iateasquirrel 02:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added 'or ball-like', because obviously being thread-like is not a distinguishing feature - although I have now met several Oolongs which do fit the description. Not sure about the line, in any case - it could still describe many Chinese red teas, no? --Oolong 11:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

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It says 'The most famous and expensive Oolong teas are made here' (the Wu Yi Mountains) - I rather thought Taiwan claimed that honour. No? Anyone? --Oolong 14:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

This is probably an irrelevant fact hence it probably has numerous answers... certainly it is claimed that true Da Hong Pao tea of which a few hundred grammes are produced (numerous sources, google it) is unavailiable for everyone but a few very very very wealthy people. Incidentally Wuyi teas in general are not overwhelmingly expensive, not cheap, but not expensive. It would probably be rather hard to make a really expensive tea it has to have some kind of special repuation? :) --Iateasquirrel 04:32, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

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Oh, incidentally, I wonder how universally true this statement is: "Oolong tea is the type of tea most commonly served in Chinese restaurants, to accompany dim sum and other Chinese food."

Most Chinese restaurants in the UK, if they sell oolong at all, will only serve it if you ask especially. Jasmine tea is much more common here, for some reason. --Oolong 14:50, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I concur that Jasmine is the default tea served in Chinese restaurants. I live in the US but I found that it's been true in my travels to China & Hong Kong as well. --71.136.4.22 18:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I've now weakened that statement to 'is commonly served...' - although this still isn't true in my experience, I suppose it wouldn't have been included in the first place if there weren't some truth to it? --Oolong 11:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Images available

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  Image:Oolongtea11a.jpg
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  Image:Oolongtea13a.jpg
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  Image:Oolongtea1a.jpg

These are, to be honest, not a good representation of quality Oolong tea. We really need some better ones! --Iateasquirrel 23:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I hope that universally we can agree these images are not a good representation, hence I've replaced their occurances on Oolong with images of better quality tea. Is this correct? --Iateasquirrel 04:32, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Varieties

I'm no oolong expert, but two varieties I drink and really enjoy aren't listed here and I'd add them myself but I don't know the appropriate categorization of them. One is A Li Shan from Taiwan. The other is Ti Kuan Yin ("Iron Goddess of Mercy"?). They're both quite flowery, but unique unto themselves. Just thought I'd share this, so if anyone can tell me more about them or if they'd be suitable additions to the article here, let me know. --Ds13 20:08, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I've heard of, and had some Ti Kuan Yin. Pretty good. --Maru (talk) 04:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

It is listed as Tiě Guān Yīn (鐵觀音), although I see Ti Kuan Yin far more frequently. I wonder if the latter spelling would be worth mentioning here for this reason, even if the one being used is 'more correct'? --Oolong 11:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Possibly a pipe or redirect would be best. Use the common name, send to the right name. --Maru (talk) 18:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not so sure, since 'more correct' in terms of personal experience, I think just pipe the Ti Kuan Yin to Tieguanyin, dont know. Any ideas? I've added a few good pictures to the Da Hong Pao tea and Rou Gui articles and I have many more I can add, its just a matter of time taking the pictures. Also Ds13 it would be nice to have some pictures of the different varities, both spring and autumn, I have some of Huang Guan Yin I can take but its not technically a Tie Guan Yin. --Iateasquirrel 23:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added 'or Ti Kuan Yin' after the Tiě Guān Yīn spelling. --Oolong 11:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the various varieties of Wuyi Shan should be merged, and that "also known as" should be changed in favor of some phrase that indicates that it's a translation of the Chinese name rather than a nickname or an alternate name. Alexwoods 19:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I am going to start merging. Let me know if you think I'm going about this the wrong way. Alexwoods 20:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Oops, looks like I didn't get around to doing that when I thought I would. I think this article really needs cleaning up, and I would appreciate help from anyone who is interested. Alexwoods 19:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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• There is something wrong about the Varieties. The Oolong can be mainly calssified to four types: Northern Fujian Oolong, Southern Fujian Oolong, Guangdong Oolong, Taiwan Oolong.

1. The Northern Oolong includes Da Hong Pao,Rou Gui,Shui Jin Gui,Shui Xian,Tie Luo Han,Bai Ji Guan,Wu Yi Rock tea is the total name of above.
2. The Southern Oolong includes Tie Guan Yin,Sechung,Huang Jin Gui,Mao Xie,Qi Lan,Ba Xian tea,Fo Shou etc. Anxi County is the main place of Southern Oolong.
3. The Guangdong Oolong includes Phoenix Dan Cong,Phoenix Shui Xian,Lingtou Dan Cong.
4. The Taiwan Oolong includes Oriental Beauty,Ali Shan Oolong,Dong Ding Oolong,Bao Zhong,Jin Xuan,Si Ji Chuan etc.

Please give more suggestions.Jazzihong22 (talk) 10:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion:Thé_Oolong —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.53.55.75 (talk) 03:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Meaning of Oolong

The term "oolong" means "black dragon" or "black snake" in Chinese

The characters literally mean Crow-Dragon tea. The etymology common in Japan is that Oolong tea leaves are black like a crow and twisted like a dragon, hence Crow-Dragon Tea ... this is also the etymology mentioned on the Japanese wikipedia page. But the Chinese page has an etymology nearly identical to one of the ones in the article: "In one legend, the owner of a tea plantation was scared away from his drying tea leaves by the appearance of a 乌龙; when he cautiously returned several days later, the leaves had been oxidized by the sun and gave a delightful brew" Does anyone with a better knowledge of Chinese culture or language than me know what exactly 乌龙 refers to? Is this indeed some kind of snake? Or a mythical dragon? CES 02:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It's a good question - I'm very curious. I have changed 'snake' in the text to 'serpent' for now, since this is more-or-less correct either way. I have also added '(or more literally "raven dragon")' after 'The term "oolong" means "black dragon"' - I understand that raven is no less correct here than crow, and is traditionally used in English to refer to black hair, etc., so it matches what seems to be the intended meaning more closely. --Oolong 11:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Oolong - I reverted your change of 'raven' to 'black'. I didn't notice before doing so that this had already been subject to some discussion, so sorry about that. I think that 'wu' does exactly mean black, going on my copy of the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, which defines 乌 as 黑. If you want to put in a note that says something like "'wu' also means raven" or something about the poetic quality of the name, I think that would be more appropriate than "more literally". Alexwoods 19:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Brewing temperature

Can it please be added what temperature the water is heated to before adding the tea leaves? Also, how many times may the tea leaves be brewed? Both of these things are often unknown outside China, where people bring water to a rolling boil before adding the tea leaves and throw away the leaves after the first infusion. Thanks in advance for your expertise. Badagnani 11:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I just bring it up to a light boil, and reuse them about 3 or 4 times (along with the previous batches; I chuck out all the leaves after 3 or 4 steeps). But that's just me and so OR... --Gwern (contribs) 18:24 8 December 2006 (GMT)

Thanks! What do you mean, though, by saying "along with the previous batches"? Badagnani 22:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Badagnani, I use a clay teapot family heirloom in which I dump a pinch of fresh oolong leaves, and get my tea from that. However, when I'm done, I don't clean it out - I leave the oolong in. Next time I want some tea, I dump a pinch of fresh oolong in, and get my tea from that... And so on until I notice the tea being a bit astringent or bitter, at which point I clean all the old, very old, and just sort of old oolong leaves out. --Gwern (contribs) 06:23 9 December 2006 (GMT)

For high fired oolongs I tend to use hotter water at 95C for "high fired" oolong and 90C for lighter ones. About 1 tablespoon gunpowder style oolong for each 200ml. The rest of it I do pretty similar to what is shown here. Quite an educational site. I brew until the tea is tasteless and leave it in for 2 hours for a last last infusion. Sjschen 23:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the fascinating info. So the temperature is always under 100C (not quite boiling). I believe green tea, at least the early infusions, should be brewed at even cooler of a temperature (which most Americans probably don't know either). I've just tried a dark-colored Wuyi oolong (loose leaves in bulk at the health food store; I have no idea of the source, grade, or specific name of this tea), and it seemed to work fine. I just tried something new: adding a pinch of Citrus sinensis (Chinese dried orange peel, used for herbal medicine). It tastes nice, but I'm sure this would be considered very unorthodox. To get back to the original question, I think the general brewing temperature and procedure should probably be added to the article. In my experience the Chaozhou have a special way of brewing tiguanyin, adding hot water again and again and drinking from tiny cups. Badagnani 04:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The brew temp depends on the quality of tea and the type of tea. Some oolongs and greens taste better with hotter water some better with cooler water. I personally think it's a balance between brewing time and temp. Citrus in tea is not uncommon and quite good, and may work well in oolongs. I personally think black teas taste better with mandarin peel than with bergamot as in earl grey, as well, they do make pu-erhs stuffed in orange peel. The Chaozhou brewing method is either similar or or same as Gongfu Cha, which incidently is a sucky article and would benefit greatly from your input :) --Sjschen 17:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

References

Until a few days ago there were no references ... that there now are is good, except some of them lead to all chinese sites or the chinese language part of multi language sites. Could this be corrected? :) Abtract 23:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That's my bad, I really can't find anything useful in all-English sites. Many of them only provide tidbits of info when they try to sell you the tea. As such I have put down the Chinese sites, for now. Will keep on looking though. Sjschen 02:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

IMO chinese language sites are counterproductive as they send the reader on a wild goose chase; I am going to remove them unless you would like to? :) Abtract 08:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, it's a source of information for the creation of the article so it should be included. Whether the reader gets sent on a wild goose chase depends ultimately on their language abilities or... well... intelligence. If you really really really (really) want to remove them, put them in as a hidden comment, but I don't think removal or hiding it for that matter is a good thing. Info is info. Sjschen 09:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but surely the proportion of users (even intelligent ones) of the English WP who read chinese is fairly small? I am going to remove them to avoid frustrating the vast majority of users. Abtract 09:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

In that case, you are intentionally limiting the inclusion of cited information solely for the sake of preserving "Englishness". That's not a problem if the English sites can give similar or better information, but this is clearly not the case. Just so you are aware, in the wikipedia sources citing guide:

“ ...English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. ”

I would say this an appropriate situation. Please seriously reconsider your action. Sjschen 10:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove the Chinese-language links from the External links section; they are of relevance and have been carefully selected by expert editors working here. Chinese-language sites are often infinitely superior in the quality and quantity of the information they supply in contrast to English-language sources on Chinese topics. The text can be copied and pasted into Babelfish to provide a decent translation into English; we are in the Internet age after all. Having both English and non-English sources can be a great asset, and is so in this case. Badagnani 10:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for steering me to a policy I wasn't aware of; naturally I bow to it. However, I still humbly point out that these references are completely useless to at least 9 out of 10 users (probably 9,999 out of 10,000)... what are we going to do about that? Could English language versions or translations be cited (I note that one of the sites had an English version but the citation led to the chinese one)? No doubt the expert editors are working on it. :) Abtract 20:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No experts, just editors :) You do bring a good point regarding the use of foreign language sites and user friendliness, but such is the case with certain areas of knowledge in a culture or language, namely you may have to look elsewhere for the info. That being said, I may have just found a site that will meet your specs. Stay tuned. Sjschen 01:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If you are wondering, the English version does not have the same info. Most often the Chinese sites develop the Chinese side and leaves the English side to stagnate. Sjschen 01:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Tippy

What does 'tippy' mean in Dong Fang Mei Ren? or is it vandalism that crept in? Abtract 08:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Tippy is tea jargon for the leaf bud and a first or second leaf in a leaf tip "system". Will disambig later, or you can do that now ;) Sjschen 09:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Translation Comments

I changed ""blue tea"" to ""qingcha"". The term "blue tea" is not in use in English and not a great translation, and I don't think we need to use a coinage translation for this term. Aficionados do occaisonally use the Chinese term "qingcha" in English, and I think it's useful to have it in the article. Alexwoods 20:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Taiwan

Those truly in love with the ritual of oolong appreciate Taiwan's oolongs above all others. As Taiwan is a much wealthier part of the world than mainland China, it is affordable to make truly world-class teas. Most oolong from the mainland is loosely rolled if rolled at all (a sign of inferior tea); most of it is also brown. Taiwan's oolongs are generally green and tightly rolled (the higher the quality, the more tightly rolled and the more steeps it can take before the leaves unfurl fully and begin to lose their flavor). At first an oolong drinker is beguiled by the "holy", flowery nature of green oolongs. After a time, for everyday tea, the roasted varieties become more appealing. Oolongs, being oxidated part way between green and black tea, have caffeine which is still tightly bound up in the leaves (the process of oxidation has only been allowed to go on for a limited time so the caffeine in the leaves is not as fully rendered or readily assimilable by the body as with black tea). Therefore, unlike with black tea and coffee, one can drink oolong for extended periods and not feel frazzled at all. One Chinese author is quoted as saying that the key to his success is oolong tea. As far as the name "oolong", it does not mean "black dragon"; "oo" does not mean black, and "long", while being the same character as the one for dragon, does not mean dragon in this context. While living in Taiwan, I repeatedly asked tea sellers what oolong means; I was always told that it means nothing and is just the name of the tea. Fujian province in the mainland is the closest mainland province to Taiwan; the cultures and dialects of the two areas are quite similar. The tea traditions in both places are also similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.51.175 (talk) 12:13, January 2, 2007 (UTC)

I am also a bit suspicious about the translation. I am ethnic Chinese and grew up speaking Cantonese, and the tone of "long" in "oolong" is not the same as the tone for dragon. In Cantonese, the word for "black" is nothing like "oo", it is more like "huh". However, it's possible that "oolong" as "black dragon" could be a cultural pun, in which case the translation could be valid but it should be pointed out that it is not literal. A more academic source would be preferable for verification. Ham Pastrami 06:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus Duja► 14:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC) Oolong → Oolong tea

In a general, encyclopedic sense, Oolong is usually used modifying "tea" as with almost all other teas (see Category:Chinese tea or the links in list of types of Oolong in this article for examples). "Oolong tea" is not a pleonasm in English or Chinese (nor does "Oolong" alone inherently mean in Chinese). However, even though Oolong has other non-derivative meanings (see Oolong (disambiguation)), Oolong tea is the primary meaning of Oolong and Oolong should redirect to Oolong tea . (Though I'm loath to use them, for those who like Google results, searching "oolong" -"oolong tea" yields a plethora of other uses.) —  AjaxSmack  05:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support

1. Support as nominator. —  AjaxSmack  05:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
2. Support, right on all counts. Alexwoods 14:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
3. Support - per reasons stated. I guess its unlikely that Pu-erh tea will be moved to Pu-erh anyway. It's a good thing that there's always the redirect template that can be on an article of this case. ~I'm anonymous
4. Support. It appears that this should be named the same way as the other teas, as well as per common use and for precision. Dekimasuよ! 05:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose as unnecessary. It may be just what I happen to drink, but oolong, like Darjeeling, has been adopted into English, mostly without tea. Most of the OED's quotations are simple oolong- and one of the exceptions is from 1845. (No listing for Pu-erh.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
   • But Darjeeling is at Darjeeling tea, not Darjeeling (tea). I drink Irish Breakfast and call it that but the article is still at Irish Breakfast tea. —  AjaxSmack  04:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

   • Irish Breakfast tea is surely a special case. Besides, precedent is only valid in the context of policy or guideline, and articles ought to be considered on their own. The key is verifiablity. - Tiswas^(t) 09:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

2. Oppose - per reasons stated. Scott5834 21:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
3. Oppose – From Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names):

   "For example, the page about jazz should simply be called "Jazz", not "Jazz music", because "jazz" refers in almost any context to a genre of music, and the simpler title makes linking easier. Adding the word "music" is redundant."

   It would be like moving Steel to Steel metal to avoid confusion with Sapphire & Steel.Grant 07:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

   However, "oolong" does not refer to tea "in almost any context", and having the page at Oolong doesn't make linking easier as long as this title remains a redirect to Oolong tea. Dekimasuよ! 05:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

4. Oppose - Anecdotally, Oolong is most often used in the context of tea - Oolong tea seems redundant. I would prefer the status quo to remain, unless it can be verified that Oolong tea is in wider use, or if it were the correct form. If consensus can still not be reached, might I suggest Oolong (tea) to disambiguate. - Tiswas^(t) 09:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
5. Oppose as unneccessary - the first line makes the context clear. -- Beardo 12:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
6. Oppose It is not appriopriate to cite the names of other teas as a primary renaming criterion. Its not like we are going to have "Tieguanyin Tea" soon, I hope?--Huaiwei 16:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name

The word "oolong" is a nonstandard transcription of the Mandarin pronunciation. The w in Mandarin is silent. The Min Nan pronunciation, while written with an "o", is pronounced "oh lee-ong", not "ooh long". Alexwoods (talk) 17:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Varieties

I am going to rearrange this section into Wuyi cliff teas, baozhong / pouchong, Dancong, Tieguanyin (Anxi and n. Taiwan), Taiwanese high mountain tea. Any comments? Alexwoods (talk) 15:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)