Talk:Christopher Columbus

:::October 2006 Peer Review

League of Copyeditors, January 2007 copyedited

Why is there no mention of Columbus's sister in the article?

The article mentions his brothers: Bartolomeo, Giovanni Pellegrino, and Giacomo. But why no mention of his sister, Bianchinetta? She should be mentioned in the article. Shouldn't she? jpgordon, can you tell us? Cheers, ducky! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calgo (talk • contribs) 14:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any proof to back that story up? (Proof, please. Not hearsay and theories!) Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calgo (talk • contribs) 19:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

What we need are reliable sources, not an argument here based on people's own research, so deleting some original research here. And Rosa is not a reliable source by Wikipedia criteia. Dougweller (talk) 20:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I find it laughable that Manuel Rosa who has spent 19.5 years researching in-depth this history and who is fluent in English, Portuguese, Spanish, plus French, Italian is seen by you as "not a reliable source" however James Loewen, Eliot Morison, Tavianni and even Robert H Fuson (who has holes so big in his books you can drive trucks through) are reliable. It is truly a state of the blind leading the blind and the blind insisting they can see. Colon-el-viejo (talk) 19:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Cabot

I have now twice remove the sentence "John Cabot is also believed to have reached North America (Newfoundland) before Columbus" from the introduction. I have done this for two reasons: 1) Columbus never reached North America, so the statement doesn't make logical sense. 2) The information immediately before where this sentence was placed relates to verified European expeditions to the Americas prior to Columbus, a category that does not include Cabot, at least in mainstream historical thinking. Hopefully this is clear. Regards, ClovisPt (talk) 00:27, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Perfectly clear, I was careless and not rewording - Morison phrased it correctly in fact as I said on your talk page. Is it entirely irrelevant to the article do you think? Dougweller (talk) 07:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

No worries. As far as adding Cabot's travels to North America to the article, I don't see exactly where that would go, but if you can find a place, it seems like it could be a fine addition. ClovisPt (talk) 19:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

What to do about this talk page

For the last month, this talk page has been a complicated mess because of people (or maybe one person) continually modifying their comments, making the discussion real hard to follow. I'm quite tempted just to archive the whole thing up until the last section or two. Would anybody object if this quite inappropriate noise was archived? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 05:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm finding the page so much more interesting and informative with people updating their comments. There's nothing wrong with adding new information to make the page more informative. Now, is there? However, I wish some of the editors weren't so snide. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calgo (talk • contribs) 05:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'll be reverting any further edits you make on this page that either change already answered comments or are otherwise not in keeping with our talk page guidelines. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 05:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Calgo, this page is a mess, one of the worst I watch (and I watch over a thousand pages). You are modifying comments made weeks ago without any indication of what you've done, including modifications of comments made after you've had a reply. Please read WP:TALK. You and others are using this page to carry out a debate and that is emphatically not acceptable, "Do not use the talk page as a forum or soapbox for discussing the topic. The talk page is for discussing improving the article". The "Probably Colombus was a Spaniard" section, where you've been changing your edits, has indented comments without signatures.

And that arugment is WP:OR, we should simply be using the term (Italy or whatever) used by historians, not arguing about whether it was Italy. You also seem to be editing not logged in, and I'm pretty sure "simultaneously catty and vapid!" is your edit - and it's clearly a personal attack.

Worst of all, except for one edit to Peter Lupus, all your edits are on this page, none to this article. It's time for you to stop talking and start editing the article. I'm sure you have something to contribute there (seriously). As for the Peter Lupus edit, I'm reverting it. See your talk page for an explanation.

Yes, let's archive the page. Dougweller (talk) 06:19, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, done. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 06:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller, Be fair! I was personally attacked, beforehand, by one of your own staffers (check the archives) by being asked "If you want to get down in the weeds...". I didn't appreciate this licentious attack, I assure you! The same staffer accussed me of "ignorance". Not a very friendly way to be on a website which is meant to promote knowledge! Much too hostile and aggressive! At any rate, you suggested that I start editing the article, itself. How is one to edit or contribute to the article, itself, when it is semi-protected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calgo (talk • contribs) 13:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

We have no staffers, I've said on your talk page that 'get in the weeds' (he didn't say 'down' I believe) is definitely not an insult. You can make suggestions here as to things you'd like changed/added, or start editing other articles and after a while you'll find you can edit this one. Dougweller (talk) 13:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller, By staffers, I meant editors (or, whatever it is you people do here.) I didn't say that the "weeds" thing was an insult. I said it was an attack. It does have a licentious tone to it and is an extremely disagreeable sounding thing to say. (Not at all gentrified.) Anyway, I've edited articles in the past, how are users to know as to when they're able to start editing semi-protected articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calgo (talk • contribs) 14:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

You are an editor/staffer then. And it definitely was not an attack. You can edit semi-protected articles, IPs can't. Dougweller (talk) 21:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Cool it, Calgo. If you keep this up you'll be blocked. I know from personal experience. Clerkenwell TALK PAGE! 03:33, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

he was going after india not east indies

i know its kind of the same thing but to be fair he wanted to go to india east indies? 71.105.87.54 (talk) 06:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

its not the same at all. He was leding the spanish in the wrong direction while V. Gama was preparing what would become the greatest discovery of all times - the sea route to India. Anyway the discovery of America only became important a couple of centuries later with the rise of the british empire... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coimbra68 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Native Language

The article says "Columbus never wrote in his native language, but it may be assumed this was the Genoese variety of Ligurian." This phrase is deceiving and should be rewritten to say "Columbus never wrote in the Genoese language, it is unknown what his native tongue might have been." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colon-el-Nuevo (talk • contribs) 19:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Indeed Columbus only wrote in Spanish, with a lot of Catalan expresions, and we know about one letter written in catalan language, nowadays dissapeared. It's deceiving this edition doesen't reflects the doubts of the Italian origin of Columbus, begining by his language. Spanish or Catalan editions are more objectives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poaig (talk • contribs) 19:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Poaig, the letter you refer to is misinterpreted as coming from Cristóbal Colón. The letter is a translation of Colón's Castilian letter registered by a Catalan. 71.111.215.249 (talk) 23:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Wife's Family

The article reads "He married Filipa Moniz Perestrello, daughter of the Porto Santo governor and Portuguese nobleman of Genoese origin Bartolomeu Perestrello." Bartolomeu Perestrelo was NOT Genoese he was from Piacenza which is not the same as Genoa. Furthermore, I suggest that a page for his wife, Filipa Moniz be created. I had created one but the all-knowing-powers-that-wiki saw fit to delete it, therefore someone who is not seen as a "minor fringe writer" by the all-knowing may have a crack at it.Colon-el-Nuevo (talk) 12:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Page protected

"After the passing of much time, these savants of Spain..." should be "After the passing of much time, the savants of Spain..." --81.84.152.156 (talk) 07:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed it. Dougweller (talk) 07:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus

Read about "Spanish Wikipedia" origin of Christopher Columbus is a " mystery ". Is a Blasphemy. There are Authentic Documents that prove the Italian origin of Columbus. A " mystery ". After Picasso (was part Italian) nothing. A Shame.

It could be interesting to add that the "Piri Reis Map" mentions Columbus as being from Genova, here is an excerpt from the Italian Wikipedia:

Particolarmente illuminante appare una sua frase, riportata in margine al foglio e redatta in lingua turca ottomana (con caratteri quindi derivati dall'arabo). In un passaggio in cui si parla del continente americano letteralmente si può leggere:

(TR) « … Amma şöyle rivayet ederler kim Cinevizden bir kâfir adına Qolōnbō derler imiş, bu yerleri ol bulmuştur … »

(IT) « … Ma si racconta che un infedele di Genova di nome Colombo abbia scoperto questi paraggi … » (Piri Reis haritası - Piri Reìs)

La straordinarietà dell'affermazione – che una volta per tutte dovrebbe metter fine alle polemiche riguardanti l'origine del grande navigatore – consiste nel fatto che arabi, turchi ottomani, persiani e i parlanti urdu (tutti insomma coloro che adoperano un alfabeto arabo o da esso derivante), allorché debbono traslitterare una parola straniera estranea al loro patrimonio lessicale, e quindi di non facile identificazione, sono costretti a usare ogni grafema dell'alfabeto arabo per consentire una lettura fonologicamente perfetta e in grado di non indurre a errore. Il nome "Colón" sarebbe quindi stato obbligatoriamente traslitterato Kōlōn (in lettere arabe Qūlūn), laddove il testo di Pīrī Re’īs riporta l'inequivoco Qōlōnbō (Qūlūnbū).

Il fatto tuttavia genera ancora ostinate resistenze di stampo "patriottardo" in quanti affidano geodeterministicamente al puro e semplice luogo di nascita, anziché all'ambiente culturale nel quale si è formata la personalità di qualche protagonista della storia, o alla non meno fondamentale illuminata committenza, il fattivo manifestarsi di una personalità d'eccezione. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.58.73.123 (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus secret crew member

{{editsemiprotected}}

christopher columbus along with his many crew members sailed across the sea in 1492. His most loyal crew member, Pat MaHiney, was very important to christopher. though, he is not a very known member. He died during the sail and Christopher didn't want people to make a big deal out of it so he kept this a secret between him and the other crew members. They all threw him over-seas and continue on with their sail. 24.63.218.42 (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Spitfire19 ^T/_C 23:28, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus was an Italian

1. Almost all Encyclopedias ( 90 % ) report " was an Italian navigator Christopher Columbus " and the remaining 10% of encyclopedias write: " The most accredited theory is that Columbus was born in Genoa, while other authors, have argued that had different origins. "

Nationality of Columbus ? Authentic documents ( as the Document Assereto ) confirm the origins of the famous Italian Navigator. Historians showed the authenticity of this document. There should be no more doubts. Spanish attempts have failed. The spaniards will have to accept the truth. Charter sings...

Examples :

1. http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/C/COL/christopher-columbus.html

2. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/127070/Christopher-Columbus/25447/Life

3. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04140a.htm

2. For every Italian famous character as Galileo or Leonardo Da Vinci ( first Italian unification in 1861 ) to the nationality voice : Italian. Uniformity in the parameters of judgment. Please do not change more the Nationality. Thanks.

--Davide41 (talk) 09:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

What rules? Where are these rules written? What do they say? Please let me know where I can find them. Was Julius Caesar a famous Italian too? Gbparodi (talk) 09:23, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Why Galileo, Michelangelo, Raffaello, Titian or Leonardo da Vinci are considered Italian while Colombo is considered Genoese ? What is the logic ? You pull the money and you decide ? --Davide41 (talk) 11:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

First of all, please ease off on the bolding, you do not need to shout. There is a difference between nationality and ethnicity and you do not seem to be taking note of that in all your edits. Nationality is the easy one, a person has the nationality of the country they were born in (unless subsequently granted nationality of another country). If the country did not exist when they were born, discussion over, they did not have that nationality. Ethnicity is more difficult and leads to endless disputes amongst nationalists. The most common test we apply on Wikipedia is to ask how does (or would) the subject self-describe their ethnicity. We get this information from reliable sources, not by having pointless arguments amongst ourselves. So if you have sources that say Columbus self-described himself as Italian please share them with us. SpinningSpark 13:07, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. However it makes no sense to write "Galileo Italian" and " Colombo Genoese ". Leonardo Da Vinci, Cristoforo Colombo, Michelangelo, Bernini, Enrico Fermi [...] names, of course, all part of the same ethnicity. It makes no logical sense. --Davide41 (talk) 13:22, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I made some small improvements. I hope it did not "hurt" the feelings of anyone. --Davide41 (talk) 18:30, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Small improvement. Much more precise. I was inspired :

http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3748130

Author : Milton Meltzer ( American historian )

--Davide41 (talk) 16:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks SpinningSpark --Davide41 (talk) 17:26, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Material

I found much material about Christopher Columbus - may be helpful -

1. http://geography.about.com/od/christophercolumbus/a/columbus.htm

2. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/columbus_christopher.shtml

3. http://www.nmm.ac.uk/explore/sea-and-ships/facts/explorers-and-leaders/christopher-columbus

4. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Christopher_Columbus.aspx

5. http://www.helium.com/items/1614874-christopher-columbus

--Davide41 (talk) 16:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)