Wikipedia talk:External links

Are online petitions a form of social networking?

We get occasional questions about internet petitions -- you know, "Click here to save the whales" or "Click here to tell this politician that we want a free lunch". The community removes all such links on sight, although the issue is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the guideline.

Are online petitions a form of social networking? Would it be valuable to add it to WP:ELNO#EL10? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

They're not clearly ELNO #4, but that's what I'd say they are. ELNO #13 usually applies to them as well. They're links added to solicit participation in an event or activity. Such links fail WP:SOAP's mention of "recruitment."

I don't see value changing #10. I don't think I've ever had anyone disagree with removal of links to petitions once WP:EL was brought up. --Ronz (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

We've got yet another of these disputes at WP:ELN today. See Petition EL at Gilgel Gibe III Dam to comment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see them as networking unless people can connect with one another. I am for adding petitions for "people or other causes".--NortyNort (Holla) 21:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I think it can be slid under ELNO #11.--NortyNort (Holla) 21:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't like it in ELNO #11, because I can try to see someone arguing that if, say Glen Beck put up an online petition about Politician X, that people could (wrongly) say Beck is a "recognized authority" on politics. It fits under ELNO #4, but adding specifics to that nice, concise line would make it read worse. While it fits in #13, that one is already so complex that I wouldn't add it there. Ah, and as I look at it, #10 is best. Before, I always read that line as "No SNS, such as 1) Myspace/Facebook; 2) chat/discussion groups; 3)...." But actually, it's "No 1) SNS (like...); 2) chat/discussion...etc." That is, the line isn't about SNS, it's in general about sites designed to connect people in some way. Plus, grammatically speaking, it would be quite easy to add. So, how about we change the end to read "Usenet newsgroups, e-mail lists, or online petitions"? Qwyrxian (talk) 23:54, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather change ELNO#4, or create a new guideline on links that primarily recruit for participation or for information ("recruitment" is specifically mentioned in WP:SOAP). --Ronz (talk) 00:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with #4, I recanted myself over at ELN. How about "Links mainly intended to promote a website, recruit, petition or support a cause. See also external link spamming, noble cause and neutral point of view."--NortyNort (Holla) 10:51, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Just as a note, there is at the moment at the global blacklist a discussion, that started with one specific petition, which may go in the direction that petition sites may end up globally blacklisted. I noted there, that on en.wikipedia a handful of petition sites are blacklisted by a very broad rule.

There is hardly any reason to link to a petition. If it is open it is soapboxing for more votes, and the link really does not add any content, if the petition is closed, the only thing reasonably interesting are the numbers. In terms of sourcing, that would be a primary source (and if the result of the petition is notable enough to be mentioned here, there will be better sources), in terms of external links, that number only does not add anything that can not be added in the text. In short, petitions are a near WP:ELNEVER (though that part of the guideline only talks about legal issues and blacklist evasion ..). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 11:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I've been trying to think of reasons why this shouldn't be in ELNEVER, and can't think of any. --Ronz (talk) 17:49, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Just the usual two reasons:

• An online petition might legtimately be the official website for some notable online-petition organization
• ELNEVER is stuff that we don't control: the office's copyright policy, and the blacklist. Everything else on this page is based on the consensus of the community; ELNEVER is stuff that's been 'imposed from on high'. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Responding to that:

• That is not a reason not to blacklist the whole domain. A lot of porn stuff is blacklisted, while the websites are notable enough for a page, see e.g. Redtube (abused, hence blacklisted). We still have the whitelist if something is needed.
• The blacklists are something we do control. It is our rule that one can not find ways of circumventing the blacklist. The copyright policy is indeed a case which is imposed from on high, though even if they would not have said that, I would have strongly favoured that ELNEVER anyway.

(Deep)links to petition sites are hardly ever necessary, not as a reference, not as an external link. They are misused on a significant scale, and often abused (in good faith and in bad faith!). I would suggest, that they are a near WP:ELNEVER, blacklist as soon as misuse is becoming uncontrollable, or when it starts to be significantly abused. Let the whitelist control the rest. Note that we already have a rule on our local blacklist which excludes a significant number of these sites! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 18:19, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I mean that the reasons not to name online petitions in ELNEVER are that it might be an official link (official links are not exempted from ELNEVER), and because "No online petitions" is something that the editors at this page can choose, whereas "No copyright violations" and "If it's on the blacklist (without being whitelisted), then the software won't save the page" are not things that we (=the editors on this page, not the whole community) directly control.

Put another way, COPYLINK would still be enforceable (and enforced) policy, even if ELNEVER didn't exist, and even if this page was a paean to the benefits of contributory infringement. We don't control that policy here, and the things we do control here aren't in ELNEVER. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:34, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with WP:ELNEVER as well and depending how difficult it is to amend it, ELNO would work as well. Where is consensus on such policy reached? Also, if the petition is very notable and popular, one can 'Google it' and easily find it.--NortyNort (Holla) 09:28, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

We can do anything we want with ELNO. Would you suggest creating a completely new item, or adding it to an existing one? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:24, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Here is what I had in mind for #4 C&P from my comment above: "Links mainly intended to promote a website, recruit, petition or support a cause. See also external link spamming, noble cause and neutral point of view."--NortyNort (Holla) 11:40, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

What do you think about a smaller change:

Links mainly intended to promote a website, including online petitions.

Is that good enough for you (at least as an interim measure)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

That sounds good, simple and effective.--NortyNort (Holla) 12:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

{od} I was going to add this to EL#4 if nobody has a problem?--NortyNort (Holla) 09:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I decided to be a bit bold and change it to "Links mainly intended to promote a website, including online petitions. See external link spamming." WP:PROMOTION specifically mentions advocacy, propaganda, recruitment, self-promotion, and advertising. --Ronz (talk) 17:05, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Note of Support, and good cross-linking. -- Quiddity (talk) 17:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

External links in embedded lists

Numerous articles contain lists (e.g., of software) in which some or all entries do not have an article, and probably won't have one in the foreseeable future (please note that I'm not talking about stand-alone lists). A couple of examples: 1, 2, 3, 4. What is the general consensus on external links to such software projects? WP:EL does not seem to be clear on this topic, since the external links in question are not directly on the subject of the respective article. – Adrian Willenbücher (talk) 07:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I have noticed a toughening of attitude in recent months, with the general view being that if an item has a Wikipedia article, we should link to that article, and if it doesn't, then we should probably not mention it since it is not notable.

WP:ELNO#20 is "generally avoid ... External links as entries in stand-alone lists. List entries should always have non-redirect articles on Wikipedia or a reasonable expectation that such an article is forthcoming, and thus be internally-linked only."

WP:MOS#External links says "External links should not normally be used in the body of an article."

However, some have argued that some lists would be silly if a reference were required for each item (because there would be, say, 100 items, each with a reference, where the reference is simply an external link). I tend to stay away from lists like that, but remove embedded external links where things are more clear. I only had a very quick look at your examples, but my initial feeling is that if there is no article, there should be no link. Johnuniq (talk) 09:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I don't think that ELNO#20 applies, since it explicitly refers to stand-alone lists (although I'm not sure why the rule makes this distinction). Regarding references: would it be okay to replace those external links with a citation that contains an external link? If yes, wouldn't that be overly bureaucratic? – Adrian Willenbücher (talk) 10:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

There should almost never be external links within the body of articles. I would agree that if the external link actually verifies any of the material in the list-row, then it can make a useful citation (whilst keeping WP:Selfpub firmly in mind). If it's just marketing blurbs with no factual substance, then remove them entirely. Context is key.

Also, regarding your fourth example, it'd be useful to remove all the blank lines between bullet-points (see WP:ACCESS#Lists for explanation). HTH. -- Quiddity (talk) 16:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I've updated #20 to specifically mention embedded lists as well, because I couldn't find anything in the discussions about #20 specific to only stand-alone lists.

Changing such external links to citations is problematic on multiple levels. First, there are issues related to WP:REFSPAM: If a link was spammy to begin with, formatting it as a citation looks more like a way to get around the relevant policies and guidelines on external links than creating encyclopedic content. Second, there are multiple policies and guidelines that apply regardless: WP:SOAP, WP:V (especially WP:SELFPUB #1), WP:OR (especially WP:PRIMARY), and WP:NPOV (especially WP:UNDUE).

If you want a list, the ideal solution is to find an independent, reliable source that includes a list or could be used to verify a significant portion of the list. Alternatively, provide an external link to the External links section that links to a comprehensive list. --Ronz (talk) 17:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

So basically this means that if there aren't any good sources that show the notability of a certain item in such a list, then it shouldn't even be listed (in general)? That actually sounds quite reasonable. – Adrian Willenbücher (talk) 07:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I have removed ELNO #20 ("#External links as entries in stand-alone lists and embedded lists. List entries should always have non-redirect articles on Wikipedia or a reasonable expectation that such an article is forthcoming, and thus be internally-linked only.") because it wildly misrepresents the actual rules about list contents.

WP:LSC explicitly permits list entries for which no article is expected, and has for years. There is no possible excuse for this guideline to spread such misinformation about list selection criteria.

Now, we could say something about the advisability of providing external links in lists. Perhaps you think List of paracetamol brand names would be enhanced by providing links to official websites for each entry; perhaps you think it would be degraded. But we have absolutely no business at this page saying that this list shouldn't exist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:17, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

For reference; it appears that ELNO#20 was added in this edit based on a fairly short discussion, now archived at Wikipedia talk:External links/Archive 28#External links as stand-alone list entries. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 04:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

The text in ELNO#20 was wrong to say that list entries should have at least an expectation of an article, but WP:LSC makes no comment about external links, so there would be no conflict with a reworded ELNO#20 that says lists of entries with external links should normally be avoided. Johnuniq (talk) 07:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. We shouldn't be trying to summarize list guidelines, just stating the guideline for external links. I've restored just the guidelines on external links.

Yes, I was a bit concerned when I saw that the original discussion on ELNO#20 was so brief. --Ronz (talk) 15:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Let's talk about whether we want to have such a rule at all.

I think we can all agree that "List of software", with entries that solely say:

• Foo software
• Bar software
• Baz software

is highly undesirable. IMO, this is a violation of WP:NOTDIR.

But consider List of ibuprofen brand names. It has a two-column table that lists the trademarked/brand name, and the countries in which that trademark is used. Would it harm the encyclopedia if it acquired a third column that said "advil.com" and "aktren.de" and so forth (the official websites for these entries)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:23, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

What useful purpose would such a column serve to the article? --Ronz (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it would serve the same purpose that the same link serves at Advil#External links. It might, e.g., help the reader determine whether this entry was the one s/he was looking for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:49, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, the conditions in WP:ELOFFICIAL should not be taken too literal: these list entries are the closest thing to an article that those products have, and if you replace "article" with "list entry" in the guideline, then the respective links would count as official links. (Remark: I wanted to write the same argument as WhatamIdoing did, but I was too slow ;-) ) – Adrian Willenbücher (talk) 18:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that official links are exceptions to the normal guidelines. WP:ELOFFICIAL should be taken very literally because such links tend to be primarily promotional, in violation of WP:NOTADVERTISING and WP:SPAM. --Ronz (talk) 21:13, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

How is such a link more promotional than the list entry itself? Also, how is an external link in a list more promotional than an external link in an article? – Adrian Willenbücher (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

We control what's in the list entry, applying the appropriate policies and guidelines. --Ronz (talk) 21:47, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

The same can be said about articles. – Adrian Willenbücher (talk) 05:43, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

A list often contains non-notable items (i.e. items which fail WP:N and so are not suitable for an article), and hundreds of people add items hoping to promote their website everyday. Various guidelines make it possible to handle spam that is added to an article. To control spam in lists, we need to generally avoid external links in lists on the rational that if an item is not sufficiently notable to warrant an article (or a red link with a reasonable prospect of becoming an article), then the item is not sufficiently important for Wikipedia to provide a promotional external link (and such links are promotional, even if added by someone with no interest in such promotion). Johnuniq (talk) 09:07, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: "The same can be said about articles." I was comparing list entries to external links. We of course don't control the contents of the website linked from the external link, and those contents are usually intended primarily for promotional purposes, especially the initial webpage.

I agree with Johnuniq's comments on notability and spam. I'll add that there are accepted guidelines for creating lists of non-notable entries, but those guidelines do not include using external links to what might be considered official sites if the entries were notable. --Ronz (talk) 16:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

What seems evident from this discussion is that there is no established consensus on this issue. Lambanog (talk) 18:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The only argument for inclusion of such links that's based upon Wikipedia policies and guidelines assumes ELOFFICIAL could be applied to entries in a list, rather than just the subject of the article itself. If that's the only policy-based argument that anyone has, then we appear close to consensus. --Ronz (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

It's also possible that URLs are being used to verify the list content, per WP:ECITE or similar style. Lists like this really should be verifying that the non-notable entries do verifiably meet the selection criteria. (WP:CITE lets editors make up any style they want, and we have no business telling CITE that they must exclude something that we might misinterpret as external links.)

A list entry like:

• Aktren[http://aktren.de]

might actually be more sensible reference style than a more formal approach, especially if the list is quite long, and the sources are just manufacturer's websites.

Don't you think that this:

• Aktren (Aktren.de 2010)

References

• Aktren.de website, accessed in September 2010

is a little silly? Using either parenthetical citations or footnotes will actually double the length of the page, without adding anything like double the information.

My point is that just because something looks like an external link in a list, that's not proof that it really is an WP:External link instead of a proper and necessary WP:CITE. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

That gets us off of the topic of external links. Do we agree if it's supposed to be a reference, it should be formatted as such? --Ronz (talk) 15:46, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

"Formatted as such" is a meaningless phrase. There are zero absolute requirements for formatting citations. <Ref> tags are strictly optional. A bare URL is "formatted as a reference" whenever any editor says that the URL is a citation. See, e.g., the example at WP:EL#cite_note-2, which uses a bare URL as a perfectly valid citation. (A citation that is highly susceptible to linkrot problems, but nonetheless still a perfectly valid citation/not an external link.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Editors need to distinguish references, regardless of formatting, from link added as official sites, examples, download sites, etc.

We can't rely upon formatting to determine when WP:EL applies. Maybe we need to be clear on this in the guideline, because it's a problem that WP:REFSPAM only partially covers. --Ronz (talk) 17:08, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, WP:EL#References_and_citation would probably be the place to describe it (for this guideline, although REFSPAM might benefit from a thoughtful expansion, too). Do we want to bring out the specific problem relying too much on formatting or labels, or do you have other ideas? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:17, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I've changed {{External links}} to remove the suggestion, "or by converting links into footnote references." If we want to suggest that editors convert links, we need better guidelines on how to do so. I'd rather just not suggest it anywhere. --Ronz (talk) 17:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Official link that has already been used in the article

Should an external link to the official website of the subject of an article still be included in the External links section if it is already used as a source and linked to in such capacity in the article? Lambanog (talk) 01:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Generally yes, especially if it's not identified as an official site elsewhere in the article such as in an infobox. --Ronz (talk) 01:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

yes, as it is the "standard" place where readers would look for the official internet representation of the article's subject. The potential additional use as source/reference is a separate matter, that should be treated independently--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Convenience links to cited sources - External links in Further reading section

Recently another editor removed references to published books that had convenience links to text on Google Books apparently for that reason alone even though they were in the References section. Perhaps I overlooked it in these External links guidelines but there doesn't seem to be much said about such convenience links. I ran a search and only one instance of the word convenience turned up and it didn't address the issue squarely. Let me make my understanding of consensus clear: convenience links to referenced materials are allowed. This has been institutionalized in citation templates where URL is one of the first fields presented to be filled out. The current WP:EL guidelines seem vague. In an earlier talk page an editor claimed there were at least four or five references specifically mentioning this. Now there hardly seems any mention. What is happening? Lambanog (talk) 19:37, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Removal_of_sources_from_Philippine_cuisine. The discussion there should clarify the situation.

My concerns is that a Further reading section should not be a way to get around WP:EL. --Ronz (talk) 19:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

You are removing perfectly valid published sources as references based on what grounds? Please clarify. Lambanog (talk) 21:36, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I moved external links. I believe I've made that clear, multiple times now. --Ronz (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Convenience links or online copies of (print) literature are always welcome/possible providing they do actually deliver (free) online access and are not merely shop links for buying the book.--Kmhkmh (talk) 02:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

...except when the links are redundant to the ISBN magic word -- which links to books.google.com almost always are, for any book published in the last forty years. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that. I've seen it done quite a bit, but only knew it was an exception for books. --Ronz (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind that it's a 'use your judgment' issue. If the link to books.google.com (or other online service) would take the reader directly to a highly relevant chapter or page, then that might be a good time to include that "redundant" link. On the other hand, if you're adding it because you personally happen to like (and therefore use) Google in preference to other, equally valid options, then that's probably an unfair promotion of one website over another. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Links provided by the Open Directory Project

Why are links to the Open Directory Project considered acceptable? According to Wikipedia's article on it, "it is owned by Netscape, but it is constructed and maintained by a community of volunteer editors." In other words, it would seem to be run by volunteer editors such as us. However, the choices of those volunteer editors seem to get an automatic pass as acceptable links to link to while editors here can be hamstrung by certain provisions. What is the rationale? I ask because an article I am editing I think could benefit by linking to a blog run by a dedicated but amateur blogger but because of WP:ELNO #11 I am restricted from adding it. On the other hand, sources I consider far inferior are linked to by the Open Directory Project. Lambanog (talk) 07:00, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the dmoz is an alternative when there are possibly multiple external links which have some interest, but none are really suitable, or when there are e.g. lists of manufacturers pages available on dmoz. Such lists of external links would violate our 'we're not an internet directory'-policy. I don't think it should be a case, where if a link here fails inclusion, that one should then create a dmoz with that one link, and link the dmoz. It needs a bit of an evaluation of the 'quality' of the dmoz page linked to, is it a bit of a fair list etc.

You say you are prohibited to add a blog per WP:ELNO - WP:ELNO are links to be avoided, not links never to add. Although most blogs (wikis, forums, etc.) fail inclusion threshold, there are exceptions. If you say that it is a dedicated, though amateur blog - if it is well maintained, good on-topic, not too much spoiled with irrelevant replies by others, etc. etc., it may well pass. It needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, keeping the concerns of WP:EL in mind. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:07, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

You can post the blog link at WP:ELN and see what others think. We all know an inappropriate blog when we see it, but it's hard to document all the possible problems in a hard and fast set of rules. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

MySpace

I have come across this article Keith Law (singer and songwriter) that is solely sourced to MySpace pages, should they all be removed per ELNO? Mo ainm~Talk 10:43, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Only the official myspace of Keith Law could be a suitable external link, though if there are 'real' official pages, then the MySpace becomes also superfluous (often it is accessible from the official homepage). If it is purely sourced from that, and nothing else can be found, then sourcing is really a problem. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Webpages used to verify article content are not "external links", so ELNO doesn't apply. (Instead, they're WP:Reliable sources.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that WhatamIdoing meant to imply that all myspace pages qualify as a reliable source. But I agree that they aren't ELs. Take it to WP:RSN if in doubt. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:04, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Question about accessdates

I was recently using AWB to cleanup and expand some references associated to Medal of Honor recipients and User:Binksternet pointed me to a rule on external links I had never seen before which states per WP:EL, "access dates are not appropriate in the external links section". I would like to ask why adding accessdate to an external link is "innappropriate". The reason you add accessdate is to allow the users, bots, etc to see when the link was added or potentially last updated. This helps in determining if the link is still valid (potentially due to link rot) so if a link is very old it can be checked and potentially reset to a more recent date. I can think of no reason why this would be harmful or innaproppriate. For example, in the Richard Bong article I edited, I added several bracketted links to the Cite template and added accessdate to the Find a Grave template. Perhaps I could go with not using an accessdate or a retrieved date in cases were you have a bare link or a simple bracketted link but surely adding accessdate to templates like find a grave or Citations would be helpful and shoudl in my opinion be encouraged. My guess is that this rule has ben in place for sometime and might even predate the use of citation templates. I recommend this rule of not adding accessdates to external lnks be reviewed and considered for elimination. --Kumioko (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

My take is that the external links are more casual, and may be freely removed if they stop working; not the case for references. Such casual links do not need a formal access date.

If the accessdate parameter is useful for bots, is there a way for it to be hidden from human sight? Binksternet (talk) 17:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

They were added here after discussion here.

I don't see a problem with having accessdates, though I would also like them not to be displayed if possible. --Ronz (talk) 17:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

As I mentioned on my talk page I don't think that the accessdate is a bad thing. I agree that it may be unnecessary, but not bad. I also do not think that we can hide it since its basically built into the templates (Cite, Find a Grave or otherwise) nor do I think we should. The date isn't just there for the bots its there for the users too. If I look at a link and it says the accessdate is 2005 it might incline me to click it and see if it still works (and hopefully update the date too). I totally agree that external links should be more informal than citations and I am not trying to say that adding the accessdate would be required, I just don't think we should discourage its use when it is one of the approved parameters available in the Citation templates. --Kumioko (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Tangentially, would it be worth considering making accessdates small throughout, wherever they're used? They're not strictly part of the link/reference, and I often misread the date a citation was published as the accessdate (especially given that they are usually placed prominently at the end of the line). Obviously a topic to be decided elsewhere, but I thought I'd float it here. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think from a techical standpoint its possible but Im not sure that making it small would be the best result display wise. Its something that could be done though. --Kumioko (talk) 19:45, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Three points:

• Citation templates should not normally be used in the ==External links== section, because the output they produce is the wrong style. We want the link to be the first thing on the line, and the citation templates almost always list the author first.
• If we need to know when a URL was added, we can find out from the page history. Using a straightforward binary search, I can usually find the source for an unsigned comment, the addition of a URL, or whatever else I'm looking for in less than two minutes. For ELs, I rarely need that information, since if it's dead now, or working now, then I really don't care how long it's been on the page.
• Whenever someone reduces a font size, there's almost always a complaint at WP:ACCESS. {{Reflist}} receives a steady stream of complaints. "Slightly smaller characters" always means "slightly fewer readers can see it". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

  I'm one of the people who complains about small font sizes in {{reflist}}! However, that's the part of the point: the accessdates aren't strictly part of the reference. Perhaps fewer readers should be able obliged to see it. I guess the alternative would be to not display or render the accessdate at all, but simply to leave it as a part of the template that can be filled in for the sake of other editors. (or, to make it only visible to logged-in editors, or via a preferences toggle, or etc). It would make our "References et al" sections more usable in a number of ways. I'll think about it for a bit longer, and try to do some more background-reading and sandboxing (as surely something similar has been proposed before..). -- Quiddity (talk) 23:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Regarding WhatamIdoings comments.

• If the style needs to be different then perhaps we can create a slightly different template. {{External link}} maybe but regarding the author comment normally the external links are links to websites that usually (granted there are exceptions) dont have an author. A little off subject but I don't necessarily like the Cite web format, too many periods (or full stops for you English folks) often makes it look sloppy.
• Regarding the article history comment thats true for articles with short histories but try sifting through the history for Theodore Roosevelt or Douglas Macarthur for a change like that (you might need a snickers cause your gonna be there for a while). My point is we need to make it easy for new users and non computer savvy folks to get at the information. Not bury it in the edit history of the article. --Kumioko (talk) 23:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiBlame can search an article's history for you. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 14:05, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The bigger question is: Why do you even care when it was added to the article? If the external link is working today, it's fine. If it's not working today, it should be removed. We simply don't need to know that a link worked on 01 Jan 2007, or 2 Feb 2010, or whatever the access date was, to figure out what to do with a link that is dead today.

(NB that the rules are very different for reliable sources.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing. Binksternet (talk) 02:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

For the same reasons you would care about it if it was being used as a reference. Let me pose this question to you; Why do you even care if accessdate was added to the link? Is it really hurting anything? Does it take something away from the article? Its also extremely hard to program for when you have a double standard and your trying to work with formatting and syntax changes for links. More to the point of the matter this came up because I was adding it to links on a Medal of Honor recipient. To explain, many of the MOH recipient pages have few links and I am trying to fix that. Im not really planning on going outside that group for this type of change cause thatll keep me engaged for the next couple years. Admittedly some recipients like Richard Bong have plenty of links but most do not. --Kumioko (talk) 02:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with WhatamIdoing. Let's not elevate "External links" in status by adding unnecessary complexity with official-looking templates and verbage. If an EL helps the article (per WP:EL) now, it should be kept; otherwise, remove it now. There is no need to know when it was added, and the text is distracting. Johnuniq (talk) 02:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I have already stopped adding the accessdate but I dont think its complex at all to add accessdate=XXX to an article. Its pretty cut and dry. You all seem to be under the misunderstanding that all the articles in WP are well developed. For example, I have seen many articles who dont even have a references section, just external links (which obviously is wrong in itself) so your comment to just eliminate it if it isnt paying immediate results to the article is way off. If were not going to take the time to display the link correctly, with some structure then we shouldnt bother with it in the first place and just eliminate the section entirely. I am going to continue with not adding it for now but I still haven't heard a very good reason against it other than the rules say it isnt needed and what seems to be a disdain for the presence of the section. The External links section is just as important as the See also section or the references section. It just serves a different purpose, to display links that do not directly reference material visible in the article. That doesnt mean it should just be dumped any which way on the bottom of the article. --Kumioko (talk) 03:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

At The Chicago Manual of Style Online: Chicago-Style Citation Quick Guide, under the heading "Websites", is the following information.

A citation to website content can often be limited to a mention in the text or in a note (“As of July 19, 2008, the McDonald’s Corporation listed on its website . . .”). If a more formal citation is desired, it may be styled as in the examples below. Because such content is subject to change, include an access date or, if available, a date that the site was last modified.

As a reader of Wikipedia articles, I appreciate being able to see an external link accompanied by the access date in characters of regular size.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:07, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

A possible use for access dates is that an editor who sees an external link and knows that the organization made a major update to their website, and if the editor has an idea of when the update occurred, the editor will know the link has probably died and should be repaired. Of course, the editor could check the link anyway, even in the absence of an access date, but this is more work. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

¶ I came here because of a notice at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. I think External links should be easy to add (even if that means adding spam links is easy), and adding yet another new template will make Wikicode even more intimidating to the new editors we want to attract. I also like retrieval dates, and where appropriate brief indications of a non-obvious link's nature. When someone checks all the External Links for an article (as I once did for The Bronx) then a single notice should be appropriate, I'm not sure exactly where (e.g. "All were accessible on May 29, 2008"), but then you run into the problem of what to do with links that have been later added or adjusted. —— Shakescene (talk) 18:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The difference here is the "External links" section is not, nor should it be, a list of references; they have their own section, for which access dates and specific URLs are needed. The EL section is more akin to the "see also" section, in that it contains a general link to related location, such as a company's website, as opposed to a specific link to a specific page. So access dates aren't necessary for the EL section. If a link breaks just remove it, or replace it with the updated one.oknazevad (talk) 18:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

To answer Kumioko's question above: Providing unimportant, non-actionable, and essentially irrelevant information increases visual clutter, makes articles harder to read, and degrades our signal-to-noise ratio.

I want to repeat the "non-actionable" item: It does not matter when a link was added. If you encounter a dead external(!) link with no accessdate, you should remove it now. If you encounter a dead external link with an accessdate from five years ago, you should still remove it now. If you encounter a dead external link with an accessdate of yesterday, you should still remove it now. The rule is: Dead external links get removed, full stop. The "last claimed date this external link worked" is really, completely, totally irrelevant.

(And, again, the rules are totally different for references, including lists of general references that have been mis-labeled as external links.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:55, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing description of what is and isn't actionable assumes the person deciding whether the link or isn't dead has little or know knowledge of the sources and websites associated with the subject. WhatamIdoing also presumes the only available action for a dead link is to delete it, but in reality, repair may be possible. If the person checking the article is relatively new to the Wikipedia article but frequently uses the sources and websites associated with the topic, the access date information may very well be actionable. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Imagine that the official website for a notable person has quit working (e.g., because the person retired and shut down the website). What would you do with this dead link, if the external link said "Accessed on 10 August 2010", and how does that differ from what you would do if those words didn't appear in the article?

And, if the answer is, "I'd do exactly the same thing in both instances", then what's the value of spamming those words after every, or any, proper, non-reference external link? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's say that only one particular paper by the notable person was relevant to the article containing the external link, and it was available on the official site. Let's say I'm a big fan of the notable person, and know a few on-line sources for the paper. So I would just change the link to another copy.

If the external link were written in a way that the URL was not apparent, but the access date was visible, I would know without bothering to click that the link needed updating.

In this example, the access date would be of marginal utility, but there could be other examples where it was of greater value. An example that comes to mind is the various versions of the U.S. standard birth certificate published by the Centers for Disease Control; some versions are formatted to suggest that a generational suffix is part of a person's legal name, other versions are formatted to suggest the opposite. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

So the utility of "Accessdate" for external links amounts to "If you somehow have knowledge that the website was reorganized on a given date, and that the reorg didn't properly redirect the page, then you can save yourself the trouble of clicking the link to see whether it is really dead."

What do you figure the odds are there? There are about ~150 million websites in the world. What percentage of those do you think you, personally, would be able to look at an access date and know that the website has been reorganized since then?

And if we're talking about a cost of five or ten seconds to add (and update) the dates on every single external link, to save you maybe five seconds once every five or ten years, doesn't that seem a little disproportionate? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

There is a fairly big issue here that I didn't bring up before that I think should be mentioned that ties in with when the link was accessed and that is of attribution. If we are putting links on an article, whether they are used as actual references or as external links we have a responsibility to give proper attribution to the publisher/author of the work. Which we are not doing currently with External links. The real issue here to me is WHY do we treat the structure or syntax of an External link any differently than a reference just because it doesn't directly reference material in the article? Does the fact that the link resides in a special section called external links eliminate or excuse us from our requirement to properly attribute links and references (even if they contain info not in the article) to their source? My opinion is no! In listening to the conversation so far I get the impression that some users feel the External links section is the equivalent of a scrap bin; we throw bits of things in it that we don't need at the moment, but might at some point in the future. Then later we pick through it for some useful scraps and discard the rest. I agree that in some cases there might exist some sites that we simply don't need the full workup on (personal sites, fan sites, blogs, you tube videos, dead that might be resurrected someday, etc). But to me the bulk of items currently found in External links (links to find a grave, Hall of valor, the various sports, political and movie databases, etc) should be attributed. Including, where possible, the accessdate. And, even if we dont attribute them we certainly should not be creating rules specifically instructing our editors not too. If we want the rule to say something like "isn't required" or "isn't needed" thats one thing but we shouldnt be telling people to not do it. --Kumioko (talk) 00:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The URL itself is the only necessary "attribution". If the author of the webpage put his/her name on the webpage, then the reader who chooses to click on the link will see the author's name. Our readers generally don't receive any benefit from knowing the name of the author in advance. (When they might, editors add that information after the link.)

Here are some examples, because I think they might help clarify things for you:

External link	Reference
BMI calculator	Calculate your BMI - Standard BMI Calculator, Maryland: National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, 1999, retrieved 07 October 2010 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
Official website for Coca-Cola, Inc.	Coca-Cola Global: Soft Drinks & Beverage Products, Georgia: Coca-Cola, Inc, 2010, retrieved 07 October 2010 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
Words are inadequate by Dana Jennings	Jennings, Dana (16 March 2010), "With Cancer, Let's Face it: Words are Inadequate", The New York Times, vol. 154, no. 55, 389, New York: The New York Times Company, ISSN 0362-4331, retrieved 07 October 2010 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

Basically, ==External links== is not in the business of "recognizing" or "honoring" or "promoting" an author's name. The reader doesn't need all of that extraneous information to decide whether or not he (or she) wants to click on a link to a calculator, or see the corporate website, or read an essay. We want to provide the reader with exactly the information necessary to make the decision, without needless clutter. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate you taking the time to break that down for me. I do understand what your saying I really do, but I guess its a matter of disagreement on the definition of extraneous information at this point for me. I appreciate that yourself and some editors may see little value in adding accessdates or other information to links in the external links section, but the more information we provide in our links, the better. Its never bad to give too much information. I look at it this way. Most of the articles in WP are less that B class. Most have some external links and most of those external links have some useful information that can be used in the article. In the cases of the articles that have been built up to FA then your statements may well be true, but for the rest of the articles that haven't made it to that state yet an External link is nothing more than an unused reference waiting for its information to be added to the article. Therefore the more information we can give our users, editors and each other regarding the status, condition and timliness of the link; the better. --Kumioko (talk) 01:37, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your assertion that "the more information we provide in our links, the better. Its never bad to give too much information." I think that too much information can overwhelm the reader, and prevent him from making a quick decision to click on the link. We already have layout guidelines recommending against a sea of blue links in an article; as expressed at WP:OVERLINKING, this is a form of keeping the information we offer trimmed to a minimum. The same conclusion can be made about External links: that too much text will crush the reader under the weight, preventing comprehension and interaction. Binksternet (talk) 02:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Binksternet, is that only a theory about the experience of other readers, or has anyone actually reported that his or her own experience has been worsened by the presence of that extra information?

—Wavelength (talk) 02:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing and Binksternet. Particularly for external links, we should not bury the key facts under pseudo-official text that in fact has extremely little practical value. If an editor spends their time hunting for 404 external links and removing them without thought, we should sanction that editor – thoughtless removal is not helpful. By contrast, there should be no suggestion that an external link that seems unsatisfactory now should be kept because another editor added an "accessed [one week ago]" date on it. The key facts for an external link are the actual link, and a very brief and non-promotional explanation for what the link offers. Johnuniq (talk) 03:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with WhatamIdoing and Binksternet. As a reader, I want to be able to quickly make a decision on how valuable clicking on an EL will be for me. That said, we have thousands of poorly formatted ELs. When I see an article with 12 bare URLs, I usually take the time to delete at least half of them and format the rest so future readers know what each one offers. Here's an EL section I just gave the treatment to yesterday, and here's the mess I started with. —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:54, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• I can't think of any reason why I would want to see an "accessed on" date against an external link, or what use it would ever be to me. I go along with some of the other opinions expressed that it is just needless clutter. 86.186.38.82 (talk) 03:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC).

There is also a practical issue to consider here. By far most links in the External links section are without access date or written in reference style. So unless there's a real strong case, why those links need to have an access date, it doesn't seem to be be a good idea to require that in a the guideline. So far the discussion seem to suggest an access date doesn't harm, but it is not of much use and ultimately just a question of taste. That however is not a good enough reason to require a reformatting of more than 90% of all current external links and requiring >90% of the active authors to change their editing practice as well.--Kmhkmh (talk) 15:12, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you mighth be misunderstanding me. I agree that that we shouldnt require it. But the current rules state that External links should not have it. I understand that some may not need it but I don't think we should be specifically telling people not to do it. It should, at the very least, be the users preference. Thats all I am trying to say in all of this. Why are we telling them NOT to use one? So far its mostly been arguments to the effect of its not required or needed. But that doesn't give me a reason why it shoudlnt be allowed. --Kumioko (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

What does having an accessdate do other than say you acessed the site this day? It isn't being used to cite sources, by their definition its suppose to work and if not, removed/redirected and doesn't denote any relevant info because it lacks context. For a citation, it has a purpose. You're claiming the info is verifiable and you accessed it on a specific date to confirm this and thus if someone comes later on, and the info changes either what's said must be updated or you need to find an archive; for external links your just claiming this is a link to a website and if its no longer valid, then it can be removed or in some cases an archived version can be added (and noted as such).陣内_Jinnai 16:08, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

In a perfect world your right the accessdate would be meaningless. But since most articles are less that even GA class many of the links in the external links section contain information that could and should be added to the article. Why not develop them so that when the time comes for the article to be built up they set and ready to go. Otherwise I have to click on it and hope it works. Your arguments are also true of links used as references by the way.

Its clear that I have the minority opinion on this issue and thats ok. As I mentioned before I put the question out here to gather concensus and its clear to me that the concensus is that links in the External links section need not hve an accessdate. So I am will quite quibbling over it. Its really not a major sore spot for me anyway its just one of those rules that didnt make sense so I presented it. I am going to leave this out here for a couple more days just to let anyone else comment if they wish.

One clarifying shot though. For the cases like Find a Grave, Hall of Valor, CONGbio and templates like that what is the desire of accessdates. Should they or should they not have them? --Kumioko (talk) 16:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The real difference, that is the question you should be asking yourself, is "why do we insist on access dates for references?" Because when someone cites a source, they are making a specific claim to what the source says, which requires verification. Conversely, the EL's are not a specific claim at all, just a general pointer. If an EL doesn't work, a quick Google search can provide a suitable replacement, or outright removal might be better. Either way, the access date isn't needed for verification purposes. oknazevad (talk) 21:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Clarification?

The first item under Wikipedia:External links#Links to be considered is

1. Repealed. (Professional reviews should instead be used as sources in a "Reception" section.)

...with the following for those who trouble themselves to read the source code:

<!-- Until October 2009, this item was: For albums, movies, books, and other creative works, links to professional reviews that have not been used to [[WP:V|verify]] information about the critical reception of the work or that contain information that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article. -->

To the untutored soul looking for guidance on External Links this is likely to be confusing if not downright obscure. "Reception" apparently refers to public or critical reception, but this is hardly clear. Does a "repealed" section need to be there anyway?; if so, maybe the whole line could be wrapped in [square brackets].

¶ As an additional confusion, when I tried above to Wikilink this subsection with External links without the magic prefix "Wikipedia:" it led me to Internal link. Is there some way to fix the redirects for this (perhaps to disambiguations)? Namespace differentiation is not intuitive, unconscious or automatic for most of us. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:22, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

that seems to rather odd and personally I don't agree with the "repealed"- approach anyway. Obvious should be placed outsite the External links section as soon as he us used as a source, but that holds for any link used as a source and not just reviews, so there is no need to list a special treatment which in addition might be even confusing. And as far as he "Repealed" is concerned as long as a link to a review is not yet used as a source and a reception section is not written, it might very well be placed under External links and migrated to references or notes later when it is actually used as such.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I opposed its removal, and my opinion hasn't changed. These are reasonable links to consider. However, the item (if restored) might benefit from a reminder about ELNO #1 (the 'spamming external links is not an adequate substitute for writing the article'). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Concerns about avoiding the rules by adding content to the article

An editor who was warned not to include a wiki and a forum to Ubuntu (operating system) has now decided it's OK to write an extended ad for them in the body of the article. Is this acceptable or is it just a way of avoiding these guidelines? Feel free to look at the recent additions. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they is then avoiding this guideline, but it might still be a case of WP:SPAM ... I'll have a look. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:35, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Propriety of links to Findagrave.com

FYI, see Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Propriety of links to Findagrave.com. --Kumioko (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

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(61.11.71.226 (talk) 05:38, 23 October 2010 (UTC))