Jump to content

Talk:Vedas

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dralansun (talk | contribs) at 08:19, 27 December 2010 (→‎Bona-fide Comments). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:WP1.0

BalanceRestored

The reading notes of BalanceRestored (talk · contribs) have been moved to User:BalanceRestored/Notepad. dab (𒁳) 12:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

orthodox Hindu interpretation

At Page 18 it is written "According to the orthodox views of Indian Theologians", and it is not "orthodox hindu", are "Indian Theologists" and "orthodox hindus" same?BalanceRestored 06:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the "orthodox" is intended to weaken the claim. If we just say "in Hindu interpretation", we will allege that each and every Hindu subscribes to this, which would be much more in need of a citation than the weakened statement. dab (𒁳) 08:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why not make it "According to orthodox Hindu interpretation the Vedas are apauruṣeya" to "The Vedas are apauruṣeya", the citations are already there. This one sounds more diplomatic. This does not include or exclude any particular section. So, there should be no problem.BalanceRestored 09:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Vedas are for everyone. BalanceRestored 09:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Sarveśāṃ cādhikāro vidyāyāṃ ca śreyah: kevalayā vidyāyā veti siddhaṃ" - Adi ShankaraBalanceRestored 09:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DAB at one instance you say, we cannot have things of our own. Again you are trying to write something that's not cited the way it is said. You all taught me about WP:SOAP. BalanceRestored 09:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not "trying to write", I am graciously explaining an English sentence to you. I don't insist on the "orthodox". Any suggestion for a better phrasing? Just removing the "orthodox" is not an improvement, since it will just result in an even stronger statement. dab (𒁳) 14:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the edit.BalanceRestored 07:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correction needed

When you view this article Vedas, it has a doubling of two words in the text under the section 'Etymology and usage': The noun is from PIE *u̯eidos, cognate to Greek (ϝ)εἶδος "aspect, form". Not to be confused is the homonymous 1st and 3rd person singular perfect tense véda, cognate to cognate to Greek (ϝ)οἶδα (w)oida "I know". Root cognate are Greek ἰδέα, English wit, witness, German wissen, Latin video.

The doubling of the words 'cognate to' is doubled for unknown reason, but viewing the source of the text does not contain that doubling. Please correct that. 213.172.251.107 14:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks for spotting that. Abecedare 14:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

5 Vedas

There are 5 Vedas against the standard 4. There are evidences for the same. Some say, there where 4 divisions made and the 5th is the main Veda that is complete and the one which was divided into 4.

There are various texts that talk about the Vedas being 5 in number. Arthasastra (1.3.1-2) says that there are five Vedas. Mahabharata said to be written by Vyasa, says that Vyasa taught one more Veda to his own son Shuka. Written at Mahabharata Shanti Parva 335-40

  • The Religious Authority of the Mahabharata: Vyasa and Brahma in the Hindu Scriptural Tradition, Journal of the American Academy of Religion, Vol. 62, No. 2 (Summer, 1994), pp. 377-401, Bruce M. Sullivan it quotes "Arthasastra (1.3.1-2) says that there are five Vedas."
  • "Mysore State Gazetteer", Printed by the Director of Print., Stationery and Publications at the Govt. Press (1965), Page 220 says The Panchals are said to follow five Vedas (instead of the standard four), the fifth being the "Pranava Veda"
  • Pages indexed in google for the term "5 Veda" [1] 700+
  • Pages indexed in google for the term "fifth veda" 11,700. There are various assumptions for the same.
  • Skanda Purana the biggest among the Puranas clearly mentions the original people to whom the 5 Vedas belonged (Still to confirm this) The verses are as follows "RugVaid Manushchaiva, YajurVaid Mayasthata, Tvastrana SamaVaid, Cha Arthavarn Shilpi Kasthata || Vishwagnya Pranava Vaid Cha Pancha Vaidantu Brahamanaha"
  • kamakoti.org "Shri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham" says "There are five Vedas if you reckon the Yajur Veda to be two with its Sukla and Krsna divisions." so they agree that there are 5 vedas, the sentence is very much "confused" looks like the sage knows there are 5 vedas. [2]
  • "Psychic Science April 1931 to January 1932", Stanley De Brath, Published 2004 Kessinger Publishing, New Age / Parapsychology, ISBN 1417978155. Says "The Newest Physics", "A remarkable little book a new astronomy and cosmic Physicology "merely to introduce the larger work" page 122. The author G. E. Sutcliffe claims that in is based on a method entirely new in Europe. This method is said to be contained in the Pranava Veda, A Sanskrit text from the East.
  • "Eka eva pura vedah pranavah sarva-vangmayah", Srimad-Bhagavata., Exact translation is Eka=One eva={{Used to put emphasis}} so[1]Pura=Complete Vedah=Veda Pranavah="Pranava Veda" sarva-vangmayah=all-vangmayah. Now people who read this line from Srimad-Bhagavata and still say , NO NO NO or write something else, which is 100% crystal clear, I think they need a doctor. My friends we all agree that Vyasa divided the 4 vedas from some big text (Veda) to simplify it. It was the pranava veda he did that from. Now, this is what people say and talk about. Truth needs to be found, this is what something that's commonly talked. Again.. there's something else also about Pranava Veda that sounds silly.. but I will keep that a secret. Ok, you all scholars, great editors, which TEXT VYASA DIVIDED to make that simple? IT WAS THE VEDA so which VEDA? does anyone know that?BalanceRestored 10:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A list of sacred texts where there are further notations of the 5th Veda.
    • MBH 1.57.74;
    • MBH 12.327.18;
    • RAM 1.1.77;
    • BP 1.4.20;
    • BP 3.12.39;
    • Skanda 5.3.1.18;

Source: Mysticism and Sacred Scripture, by Steven T. Katz, ISBN: 9780195097030, Page 204

Don't know which translation is the author talking about. I find some other lines at RAM 1.1.77;BalanceRestored 06:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Have you read the article Fifth Veda ? Abecedare 07:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"that is, of a text which lies outside than the four canonical Vedas", sorry I am trying to say something else. The first complete veda, "Pranava Veda". It is very known in Indian mythology that the Veda was very big and it had to be divided into 4 divisions. But, again not everything was covered in the 4 divisions, certain things were left out of the 4 divisions. It becomes but obvious when you read the following verses and currently the article Veda does not mention the same. "The incompleteness of the 4 Vedas" "Eka eva pura vedah pranavah sarva-vangmayah", the followin verses according to the Srimad-Bhagavata is said by Bhagawan Sri Krishna BalanceRestored 08:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This needs to be in the Vedas according to my understanding. Currently it's not at all seen.BalanceRestored 07:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Read Vedas#Puranas for a summary of a few origin stories for the Vedas, including the origin from the primeval veda (pranavah veda) i.e. the syllable Aum. You can read more about this in the cited reference Muir (1861) or in Holdredge (1996) who has a whole chapter on "Veda and Creation" (pages 29-129). Abecedare 08:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are million errors here made by the authors when translating the Vedas, so it is clearly doubted. The authors have misinterpreted the vedas, See the following, http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01001.htm So, how you want us hindus to go on their findings? It looks like they know to break the words but cannot understand the same when written down in a sentence.BalanceRestored 08:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I will take the first 2 lines and comment.
"I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice, The hotar, lavishest of wealth.", you mean this is the translation of
ॐ अग्निमीळे पुरोहितं यज्ञस्य देवमृत्विजम् । होतारं रत्नधातमम् ॥?????BalanceRestored 08:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, when they are not in a position to translate Sanskrit, then next are their findings about the same.BalanceRestored 08:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When the translators basics are wrong, what should be their findings based on????BalanceRestored 08:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BR, you are going off-topic now. If you want to argue against sacred-texts.com, which is a convenient but hardly an authoritative resource (and not used as a reference for this article), wikipedia is not the place to do it. Please focus your comments on critique of this wikipedia article and cite reputable secondary sources to back up your opinion.
And if you want to find what the findings are based upon, please read the cited works as I have advised earlier. Cheers. Abecedare 08:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks for the point to focus on. I will find out, I am sure it will be already published.BalanceRestored 08:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, most of the findings here are based on Muir, I suppose as it looks like a standard to many. I am sure this one has lot of technical flaws. I will find the same. BalanceRestored 10:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
we are looking forward to your expert review. --dab (𒁳) 11:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is hilarious! BR, it was you who had insisted that we quote Muir (1861), not once, but twice; after which Dab had introduced the Puranas section and I had expanded it. Now you have gone from, "this is a good one which mentions the Sanskrit sources well" to being certain that, "this one has lot of technical flaws". I too look forward to your future reviews. :-) Abecedare 15:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dating

I think it is important to state what method is/was being used by the researchers to arrive at the dating. Currently that's not mentioned.

  • Age is being arrived with the help of Carbon Dating etc has to be mentioned,

so that it is clearer for the current generations to know if the findings where based on appropriate methods.BalanceRestored 10:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree to this. Recent work done by Dr Toomas Kivisild of University of Cambridge has tremendous effect on the 19th and 20th century works by linguists and philologists. Please try to expand this section, particularly so that it does not sound weasel-y. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.12.240.93 (talk) 10:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Important point not mentioned

The authors are not conclusive about the dating those are mentioned at the main article, and what are mentioned are only probable dating. I've adjusted the text accordingly. Kindly read "The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism" Page 68 completely.BalanceRestored 10:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"only probable dating"? BR, it is universally known that the chronology of Ancient India is notoriously uncertain. We can be glad to have a date within a margin of error of one or two centuries. You seem to be interested in Indian studies. Why don't you go to some university and take some introductory lectures? Wikipedia is no replacement for education. dab (𒁳) 11:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My friend you do fail to understand Internet. When writing at a place like wiki one need to be very hardworking and will need to explain in Details because it is uncertain who is probably reading the Veda. It could be read by a scholar like you, or a elementary person like me, or even by a young 15 year old student. So, when a young 15 year old reads it, he/she will take those as certain dates as it is not clearly mentioned. He or she will then propagate the same among all his friends and then it spreads to ...... (∞) then some critic will get a change to pull the legs of Hinduisms because the word is wrongly getting spread. I find these are necessary to mention. The authors too felt the same, so they took care and pains to mention about the same.BalanceRestored 11:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did not blame any one here, I just felt it was necessary to have mentioned about the same. These were absent so just quoted those. BalanceRestored 11:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not "fail to understand Internet". You fail to understand Wikipedia. If you cannot be bothered to read a book, then please at least spend an hour or two reading WP:5P, and in particular WP:TALK: nobody here wants to listen to your general epistemological musings. You are just degrading the noise-to-signal ratio here. There is nothing wrong with 15 year olds coming to Wikipedia, reading referenced academic mainstream information, and "propagating" that among their friends. To the contrary, this is the entire point of the project. --dab (𒁳) 11:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Did I do wrong mentioning those?? Did I tell you anything for not quoting the things I quoted. I only quoted those and mentioned the changes at the talk pages. Did I violate any rules? :))BalanceRestored 11:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I never told you purposely left those unquoted. Please don't take it personally. Read WP:5PBalanceRestored 11:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edits like this one are disruptive. You've been told how things work. You go ahead regardless. Your edit falsifies the reference quoted: where does Witzel (2003, p. 68) state that "How ever there is no perfect dating still arrived for any of the Vedas so far"? Read my lips: If you want to make a comment on the margin of error of these estimates, cite a source discussing this. There are sources for this. Find them. Cite them. Don't waste my time. dab (𒁳) 11:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly read line number 21. It clearly quotes "However, there still is no absolute dating for any Ved." Page 68. You can see this book along with page 68 right now online at [3]
I think you made an error reading all the lines properly. Cheers BalanceRestored 12:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Kindly do not give false warnings, you just wrote, Edits like this one are disruptive.. BalanceRestored 12:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you know to apologize for your error. Though I don't see it is necessary as you did that unknowingly. BalanceRestored 12:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BR, I think this is just an issue you are having with the English language. Instead of debating this in circles here, I suggest that you post a question on WP:RD/L quoting Witzel from "However, it is known from internal ... who quotes most of them" and ask if "Michael Witzel gives a time span of c. 1500 BCE and c. 500-400 BCE." is a misrepresentation. Abecedare 15:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

fair is fair, Witzel does say "there is still no absolute dating of any Vedic text", the still referring to the hints provided by the 14th c. Mitanni material. If you could summarize the gist of the paragraph correctly, that would be fine, but preferably we want to avoid converting this to gibberish like "How ever there is no perfect dating still arrived for any of the Vedas so far". Witzel gives 150 BC (Patanjali) as a terminus ante quem for all Vedas, and the life of Buddha (5th c. BC) for "almost" all Vedic texts. The introduction of iron around 1200 BC is given as a terminus post quem for the AV. The Mitanni material merely suggests that the early Rigveda is roughly contemporary with the 1450-1350 period, which is in fact a very satisfactory independent support of Müllers 1500 estimate. All this is perfectly mainstream, and if your skills of cognition and English allow you to summarize this correctly, the material is perfectly welcome. dab (𒁳) 14:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again are these numbers estimates or vice versa???BalanceRestored 09:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is everyone fine with the addition of "there is still no absolute dating of any Vedic text", since all the dating has arrived with things those were available with the authors when they did their research. Kindly cite valid reason if it is not to be mentioned. The editors who say it should not be mentioned should explain why the author Witzel has quoted the following too.BalanceRestored 11:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
did you understand what I say above? You cannot isolate literal quotes from their context. Either give a correct summary of the whole paragraph or leave it be. dab (𒁳) 12:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the edit. The article about Vedas#Dating looks perfect now. BalanceRestored 12:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nastika

1st occasion noted by me where an unknown editor has removed text http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vedas&diff=151461740&oldid=151197414 related to nastika that's currently involving names of 2 important religions. I am sure that sentence is going to be not liked by everyone. BalanceRestored 08:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is it necessary to have an article not much related to Vedas to be present at the second paragraph??? are we trying to build encyclopedia, or pin communities and religions??? BalanceRestored 08:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
the chronology of Vedic literature is "not much related" to the topic of Vedic literature, how? dab (𒁳) 10:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
what is chronology of Vedic literature to do with Nastika?BalanceRestored 11:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you were referring to the 2nd paragraph, "Dating". The astika vs. nastika is directly related to the Vedas, of course, since the meaning of astika translates to "accepting the authority of the Vedas". dab (𒁳) 12:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But Gautam Buddha on various occasion has quoted references from Vedas himself. So, how are you saying Buddhism is against "accepting the authority of the Vedas".???BalanceRestored 06:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Gautam Buddha was only against accepting the wrong principles, that is, Sacrificing animals, making differences on the basis of birth. He has openly said that differences are on the basis of ones deeds, and not on the basis of birth. Vedas and Gita does not teach anything different. So, if you can let me know how following the Correct principles followers of Gautam Buddha become nastika?BalanceRestored 06:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please check the references cited in this article as well as in nastika. If you find another academic source which lists Buddhism or Jainism as an astika faith, we can list that too. If you are suggesting we cite/quote Buddha himself, read WP:OR. Abecedare 06:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citations from "Srimad Bhagavatam" [4]

tatah kalau sampravritte
sammohaya sura-dvisham
buddho namnanjana-sutah
kikateshu bhavishyati

SYNONYMS

tatah -- thereafter; kalau -- the age of Kali; sampravritte -- having ensued; sammohaya -- for the purpose of deluding; sura -- the theists; dvisham -- those who are envious; buddhah -- Lord Buddha; namna -- of the name; anjana-sutah -- whose mother was Anjana; kikateshu -- in the province of Gaya (Bihar); bhavishyati -- will take place.

Translation

Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.BalanceRestored 07:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, that makes Buddha a theists (astika) supporter, but the supporter of a true "theist"BalanceRestored 07:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is also clearly written in the "Srimad Bhagavatam" that Gautam Buddha was incarnation of Lord Vishnu himself. BalanceRestored 07:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again see WP:OR, particularly WP:PSTS. Unless you have a reliable secondary academic source to back up your views, it is better to move this discussion to your user-space. Abecedare 07:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, this is a book that you can use to refer the above.
  • Srimad-Bhagavatam, 18 Volume Set
  • ISBN: 0-89213-275-2
  • by Swami Prabhupada
BalanceRestored 07:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The following is written by Swami Prabhupada "Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gaya (Bihar) as the son of Anjana, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal-killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal-killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him."
Please stop quoting scripture to argue your points. You may cite scripture to establish what it says, but not to establish facts. The Bhagavatam is completely irrelevant to this article. It is not a Vedic scripture. Swami Prabhupada is an authority on ISKCON. His comments on general Vedic matters are not reliable from a historical point of view because he presents traditional religious views. In any case, the point you are making seems completely irrelevant to this article. The references to atheists are irrelevant to the technical term nastika in the sense of not accepting the Vedas as scriptural authority. Buddhipriya 09:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question 1

Lord Vishnu is astika or nastika? Do you not mean to say GOD supports, teaches, and follows nastika??BalanceRestored 09:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Vishnu in his 9th birth taught Buddhism, (to follow nastika) right?BalanceRestored 09:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What does this have to do with the Vedas? The only way in which it is connected is that nastika refers to not accepting the authority of the Vedas. Your personal commentary on whether Vishnu preached nastika since particular traditions regard Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu has no pertinence here. Wikipedia merely reports what is mentionedd in reliable sources. We don't deduce anything from them ourselves and write our own evaluations. That is Original research and is not allowed here. GizzaDiscuss © 03:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Should be there no attempts to ask editors to actually think logically? to build awareness about facts? Not everything that's researched could be right. I did try to show quotes from important personality too. Well if every editors thinks it is right to say Lord Vishnu preached nastika and asked his devotees to follow nastika, fine not a problem.BalanceRestored 11:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:V The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. I believe that answers your question. Now may I ask you a question. What is your understanding of the phrase, verifiability, not truth? I think it is crucial that you get this right if you want edit prosperously at Wikipedia. Please answer this directly. Please don't ramble on something else. Thank you GizzaDiscuss © 09:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
it is true that BR is (very obliquely) trying to introduce the viewpoints of Swami Dayananda and Swami Vivekananda, along the lines "the Vedas were written by magic space Aryans, and are aware of radio-astronomy, nuclear fusion, UFOs and what have you". It doesn't matter that it is obvious 19th century romanticist/mysticist/fundamentalist nonsense (in a nutshell: "theosophy"), this stuff is certainly notable, and these Swamis certainly deserve their own articles. The question is, how notable is this stuff to this article? The question is about WP:UNDUE, not WP:V ("Vedas: see Theosophy"?). I did offer BR he could introduce a new "Hindu reform movements" subsection and write a concise summary of all this. He quite apparently isn't prepare to actually document what he is talking about, but prefers to keep littering this talkpage with sibyllic comments. dab (𒁳) 09:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question 2

Who is A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada???? BalanceRestored 10:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A person who has been practicing Hinduism, just not preaching all his life is no one to comment???BalanceRestored 10:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Forgive me if I misunderstood what your question but to paraphrase it, you appear to be saying why Prabhupada can't have his opinions on Hinduism and "Nastika" mentioned as fact even though he has practised Hinduism all his life. If so, devotional views are welcomed here as long as enough context is provided and it is mentioned only to an extent. We have a Vedanta section on this page for this reason. GizzaDiscuss © 03:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Prabhupada is a guru of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and as such clearly falls in the category "Pauranic Hinduism". dab (𒁳) 10:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vedas does not advice slaughtering

Atharva Veda I.16.4Atharva Veda I.16.4
Kill the killer of the cow with the bullet of lead.
Atharva Veda III.30.1
You should impart love to each other as the non-killable cow does for its calf.
RgVeda VII.56.17
Punish the killer of the cow and the man.
RgVeda VIII.101.15
Cow is pure, do not kill it.
RgVeda X.10.87.16
Those who kill the �Aghanya�, the cow which is not to be killed according to the Vedic edicts,
their heads should be chopped off.
Yajur Veda XIII.49
Do not kill the cow.
YajurVeda XXX.18
Award death sentence to the killer of the cow.
RgVeda VI.28.3 states
Enemy may not use any �astra� i.e. weapon on cows
RgVeda VI.28.4 states
Nobody should take them to butcher house to kill them
Mahabharata- Shantiparva 262.47
Cow is called �aghanya� and thus non-killable.
Kill the killer of the cow with the bullet of lead.
Atharva Veda III.30.1
You should impart love to each other as the non-killable cow does for its calf.
RgVeda VII.56.17
Punish the killer of the cow and the man.
RgVeda VIII.101.15
Cow is pure, do not kill it.
RgVeda X.10.87.16
Those who kill the �Aghanya�, the cow which is not to be killed according to the Vedic edicts, their heads should be chopped off.
Yajur Veda XIII.49
Do not kill the cow.
YajurVeda XXX.18
Award death sentence to the killer of the cow.
RgVeda VI.28.3 states
Enemy may not use any �astra� i.e. weapon on cows
RgVeda VI.28.4 states
Nobody should take them to butcher house to kill them
Mahabharata- Shantiparva 262.47
Cow is called �aghanya� and thus non-killable.

Can the following be mentioned at Vedas? BalanceRestored 07:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above content is relevant to the Sacred cow article and you may want to discuss it on that article's talk page. It is of little importance as far as this article is concerned. Abecedare 07:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above content is a bunch of baloney. rudra 03:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are misconception about Vedas, that it advices Cow slaughtering and certain authors have said the same. These verses are from Atharva Veda, RgVeda, YajurVeda. So it would be nice if they are mentioned at Veda. BalanceRestored 07:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Still it will be great if someone can help mention all these verses at Sacred cow. BalanceRestored 08:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SYN. The vedas are not a dietary handbook. There are parts that condemn the slaughter of milk cows, others directed against cow-killing demons, but yet others prescribing bull sacrifice. You have to live with the fact that history takes its own courses and does not fit anyone's ideal. dab (𒁳) 08:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The use of poison is to kill. But poison containers do come with a warning. Well, some read the entire content before it is consumed. Some don't :)BalanceRestored 11:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dab, is there any recommendation from wiki on what to mention about Veda and what not to mention? If you can direct me to a policy, it will be great. Thanks for your guidance so far.

BalanceRestored 09:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What part of Reliable Source is giving you trouble? Did you think your random copy-paste -- make that double copy-paste -- could qualify? (Never mind that RV.10.87.16 has already been specifically dealt with, and the treatment of the rest would be similar.) Actually, this farrago of "quotes" looks awfully familiar... ah yes, com/vedas/petition.html of course. rudra 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you go right I picked that up from http://www.petitiononline. com/vedas/petition.html of course BalanceRestored 05:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The issue here is there a policy at wiki to decide what part of the vedas are to be discussed at wiki and what not to be discussed. BalanceRestored 07:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

this is the main article on Vedic literature as a whole. It links to lots of sub-articles. The early religion described in the Samhitas is treated at historical Vedic religion. Later Vedic mysticism is treated at Vedanta. Historical Vedic scholarship is treated at Shakha and Vedanga. Classical recitation of the Samhitas is covered at Patha. Surviving schools of Vedic ritualism are treated at Shrauta. 19th to 20th century gurus and ideologists trying to "reclaim the Vedas" are treated at Hindu reform movements. dab (𒁳) 08:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, where does these lines on Ahimsa from Vedas fit in? I've already added few lines at Ahimsa yesterday but that's not directly linked from Vedas. Should we add a link to Ahimsa at See Also then?
we can't link back to every article that links here from "see also". We have "what links here" for that. dab (𒁳) 12:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Any particular reason for not allowing Ahimsa an important part of Hinduism? which stand's on base of the Vedas? Does everyone agree with DABs view that Vedas article need not include any information on Ahimsa? There are many important verses from Vedas those talks about it. BalanceRestored 13:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have you realized yet that this is not the Hinduism article? The earliest mention of ahimsa is in the Chandogya Up.; if you can dig up that citation, and write a coherent paragraph about it at Chandogya Upanishad, I'll agree we can mention the fact here as well. Learn to discuss topics at the articles actually dedicated to them. dab (𒁳) 13:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean??? The first para reads The Vedas (Sanskrit véda वेद "knowledge") are a large corpus of texts originating in Ancient India. They form the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature[1] and the oldest sacred texts of Hinduism.. The column on the right reads Part of a series on Hindu scriptures, and you say this is not about Hinduism?BalanceRestored 13:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is a great suggestion that the details be mentioned at Chandogya Upanishad, but when the Vedas themselves are clearly mentioning the details about Ahimsa, why not mention those? I can get you citations from an eminent author Swami Dayanand Saraswati. BalanceRestored 13:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

what is wrong with you? The Vedas are part of Hindu scripture. What part of "part" is difficult to understand? Your "eminent Swami Dayanand Saraswati" is part of the Hindu reform movement and is completely unaware of the historical Vedic period. At the very most, we can add a short "Hindu reform movement" subsection to "The Vedas in post-Vedic literature". It's offtopic, ok? Work on Hindu reform movement or Vegetarianism if you have knowledge on these topics, but stop spamming this article. dab (𒁳) 13:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have not read "The study of Sanskrit being almost non-existent in Europe, German scholars like Professor Max Muller, who have read a little Sanskrit may have come to be regarded as the highest authorities in Germany, but compared with India the number of Sanskrit scholars in that country is very small. We came to know from a letter of the President of a German University that even learned enough to interpret a Sanskrit letter are rare in Germany. We have also made it plain from the study of Max". He knows what Max Muller has written and what's the history all about. Source http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/chaptereleven.htm (Chapter 11, Satyarth Prakash). So, kindly take some time before you really comment or actually suggest. BalanceRestored 06:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Page 333 (Chapter 11, Satyarth Prakash) says "Muller's History of Sanskrit Literature and his commentary on some Mantras of the Vedas that the Professor has been able to scribble out something by the help of the so-called Tikaas or paraphrases of the Vedas current in India, for instance, he translates the word Bradhnam into a horse in the vedic verse which runs as:- Yunjanti bradhanam arusham charanti�." Even Sanyanacharya's rendering of it unto the sun is much better, but its real meaning is the All-Pervading Spirit.* This will suffice to show how much Sanskrit learning Professor Max Muller and other Germans possess." BalanceRestored 07:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BR, please stop using this page as a soapbox to air the latest discoveries you make on petition-online or some other non-reliable POV websites. You have already posted more comments on this page in the past six weeks as all other editors combined in the last 3+ years! If you continuing along these lines, we will consider a topic-ban to prevent you from spamming this article page and treating it as a discussion forum. Abecedare 07:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am so sorry I did not mention the book, I assumed you all knew
Light of truth, or, An English translation of the Satyarth prakash: The well-known work of Swami Dayanand Saraswati
Dayananda Sarasvati
Language: English
ASIN: B0008BOYJ4
BalanceRestored 07:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Details at Amazon [5] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BalanceRestored (talk • contribs) 07:23, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
  • As per Rig-veda (10.87.16), “One who partakes of human flesh, the flesh of a horse or of another animal, and deprives others of milk by slaughtering cows, O King, if such a fiend does not desist by other means, then you should not hesitate to cut off his head.”
  • Yajur Veda 12.32.90 says "You must not use your God-given body for killing God's creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever".
  • Atharva Veda 10/1/29 says "Oh violent man, It is the most heinous sin, To kill the innocent creatures,

Kill not our cows, Our horses and our men."BalanceRestored 08:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

can you please stop spamming this talkpage now? You want to edit sacred cow, ahimsa, and History_of_Vegetarianism#Historical_Vedic_religion_and_Hinduism. dab (𒁳) 08:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the above religious lecture is completely irrelevant to this article. I ask again that this editor stop quoting scripture in these ways, and stop violating WP:SOAP. If this religious lecturing continues, I would support an RfC regarding the matter. Buddhipriya 08:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing to get excited about. I just recommended a content. If you all think it is not good to be mentioned fine. Cheers :). BalanceRestored 09:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
History_of_Vegetarianism#Historical_Vedic_religion_and_Hinduism could be a good place. Thanks DAB. BalanceRestored 13:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Teachings of Vedas

Well, I don't see anything that's talking about teachings of the Vedas. What exactly does it teach is not much covered. It will be great if someone starts a section here on the same. I've see that the currently article does not highlight anything about the Vedas teachings. BalanceRestored 05:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Currently there's hardly anything that's written at Etymology and usage.BalanceRestored 06:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I believe only the most important (meaning it is the major aspect of) teaching should be covered. My reason is that a article should only include facts, and the most important teaching will cover roughly what it is. Overly noting the teachings in the article may violate WP:OR or WP:NPOV, since it could use some point of views. Any thoughts or criticisms are welcome. --Hirohisat Talk 08:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

how to deal with spam, SOAP, UNENC and/or cluelessness

Further information: WP:TALK
I would support the suggestion to request either a topic ban or a more general sanction, since all efforts to explain WP:SOAP have failed to change the behavior patterns. Buddhipriya 07:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have left a message on User:Vassyana's talk page. Once we here back from him, we can proceed to WP:AN or WP:CSN. I think this has gone far enough. Abecedare 07:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I encourage you to just remove offtopic posts per WP:TALK instead. It has become plain that BR has no inkling about this topic. At least it has now transpired where he is coming from: Swami Dayanand, Arya Samaj. These people have already performed dauntless feats of cluelessness over at Talk:Ashvamedha. I suppose BR is a perfect illustration for the sort of people who fall for this stuff. I am not opposed to having a section on Hindu reformist movements on this page, but it should preferably be written by an editor who has the remotest clue of the context, and the most sketchy grasp of WP:ENC. dab (𒁳) 07:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dab, the reason why I think that some official sanction is needed is that in the absence of any clear community ruling on this, simply ignoring an editor (which is my interpretation of what you have suggested above) could be considered to be a violation of WP:CON on my part. As I understand Wikipedia policy, I have a duty to engage in good-faith dialog with any editor who comes forward unless some community process has validated that the editor's views can be dismissed without prejudice to me. I also fear that some of your comments above may be perceived by BR as simply rude, rather than constructive, and thus may simply lead to escalation of conflict rather than removal of it. Can you comment on the issue of duty to participate in good-faith dialog until such time as an editor has been sactioned? I ask this question because I have not participated in many sanction cases until now, and thus may be incorrect in my understanding of processes. Buddhipriya 07:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

no wikipedia policy forces us to prance around with editors who show no interest in being constructive, making coherent suggestions, or citing sources. We are urged to WP:AGF as far as possible. But at some point, it simply doesn't matter if a user is unwilling or unable to make sense. We are bound by policy to react to coherent suggestions backed up by reliable sources. Nothing in BR's protracted spamming campaign merits this description. I urge you to WP:UCS and feel free to remove pointless comments per {{notaforum}}. Arya Samaj and Vegetarianism are valid topics in their own right, but there is no reason to condone BR's automatic writing about these topics on this page. I am sorry if I come across as rude sometimes, but I believe in speaking plainly, but without intent to insult. I feel it is a much greater insult to assume the rules do not apply to you, or that you somehow know better than established academic experts. Hinduism articles get a lot of this, and I simply don't have any patience left with these "Hindu expatriate angry young tech students". There is nothing wrong with being interested in a topic without first getting a university degree. Most of Wikipedia is written by such people, and they are doing well. But there is no excuse for refusing to be educated, and assuming you know better than the boring bookish experts simply because you have read a few flashy blogs. dab (𒁳) 10:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quotations from Puranas and other Hindu Scriptures to understand Vedas

Can comments about Veda from 20 accepted Puranas, and other important writings from spiritual leaders in Sanskrit, Tamil and other Indian language those comply ISO standards have any problem including in Vedas???? At multiple occasions, I have been asked not to use Scriptures. All the Vedas and Puranas do not hold any copyrights as they are very old. They are already openly available and have proper ISBN code and are currently in Sanskrit (ISO Standard Language) for each of those. The translations for all of the same are present. BalanceRestored 09:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BR, it is very simple: The Vedic texts date to ca. 1500-500 BC, and are discussed at Vedas. The Puranas date to ca. 300-900 AD, and are discussed at Puranas. Both are scripture, both are vernerable, both should be discussed in all detail on Wikipedia.
What you are trying to do is discuss the Puranas at the Vedas articles. That's as if somebody insisted hook and crook to discuss Troilus and Criseyde at the Vergil article. Alright? We have a "Puranas" section (presently 8.2), where we can briefly summarize the Puranic take on the Vedas. But the {{main}} article for that is Puranas. Do you finally understand that now? dab (𒁳) 09:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not all could be in the 4 Vedas

"Anantah vai Vedah", the Vedas are endless, "Sri Sri Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi MahaSwamiji" says the following "We cannot claim that all the Vedas have been revealed to the seers. Only about a thousand sakhas or recensions belonging to the four Vedas have been revealed to them." from the book "Hindu Dharma" http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap12.htm

And this means what exactly? It might be intended to mean nothing more than that all knowledge is not contained in the texts we call Vedas. Paul B 11:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Sri Sri Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi MahaSwamiji" is Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Kanchi Mahaswamigal. Feel free to discuss his views in detail on his own article. --dab (𒁳) 12:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the sixty eighth Shankaracharya's views at his article. BalanceΩrestored Talk 05:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No Shankaracharya?

Dear Editors, the views from Shankaracharya's are highly regarded in India. A seer in India is only titled Shankaracharya after a very great discussion among all the Indian Vedic Schools. According to "At the Eleventh Hour: The Biography of Swami Rama By Rajmani Tigunait", Page 174, ISBN 0893892122, "In Hindu society the Shankaracharya is comparable to the Pope in Christianity". Currently the article Veda is importantly lacking views from the Shankaracharya's. Comments from the Shankaracharya's on the Vedas are considered very important. It is requested to present important discussions from the Shankaracharya's on Vedas be present at this very article. BalanceΩrestored Talk 07:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You sound to ask me, how's Pope related to Bible? and what's Bible to do with Christianity?? :) BalanceΩrestored Talk 10:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I'm aware, Shankaracharya's noted commentaries on the "Vedas" pertain more to the Upanishads than the Samhita. That is why his name frequently appears on the Upanishads page compared to this article. GizzaDiscuss © 12:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

are we talking about the "68th Shankaracharya" Saraswati Swamigal here, or about Adi Shankara himself? Either way, present the quote, and we can discuss whether it has any pertinence to this article. --dab (𒁳) 13:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see, we are still discussing the notion that "the Vedas are infinite", aren't we. That would belong under the "Vedanta" heading I suppose, where Saraswati Swamigal's statement would make for an excellent illustration that the notion of "Vedas" in current (and classical) Hinduism is completely severed from the texts themselves. "Veda" is a mystic catch-all term thrown about without the least reference to anything that is actually in the texts known as the Vedas. Indeed, since the "Vedas are infinite", these texts can only be an infinitesimal fraction of the actual "Veda", and can therefore be ignored as irrelevant. --dab (𒁳) 13:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rig Veda Dating looks wrong

I got this nice text [6] that states 3000 BC and 2000 BC could be the date when Sarasvati River disappeared. Saraswati is the most celebrated river in the Rig Veda and it's being mentioned in nine of the ten Mandalas!!!

So how's that the dating of Rig Veda is given much later around 1700 BC here? If the river was exiting when Vedas were written it should be lot earlier anywhere beyond 3000 BC. How's the dating derived by the authors? BalanceΩrestored Talk 09:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

read Rigveda. The Bronze Age dates concern the oldest core of hymns exclusively, anyway, the actual redaction into the samhita dates to safely within the Iron Age. dab (𒁳) 17:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Absolute garbage. This erroneous dating of the Vedas in general and specifically the Rg Veda to 1700/1500BCE reflects the gross bias and eurocentricity of the so-called scholars such as Max Muller, Jones etc. Although the article vaguely hints at the hymns being composed around 3000 BCE, its predominant emphasis that the Rg Veda was "composed" and written in and around 1500 BCE stands out like a sore thumb. As BR above has stated, a 'book', in this case the Rg Veda, that refers to a geographical territory somewhat specifically (Saraswati River) cannot be ignored. If the river had disappeared around 3000 BCE, the Rg Veda must have been 'composed', or discovered (revealed?), much earlier than that. Michael Witzel is a philologist first, not a historian or an archeologist. Therefore, his tall tale about the dating of the Vedas is purely erroneous and should definitely be removed from the article.:: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.39.64 (talk) 20:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

you cleary have no idea what you are talking about. The Rigveda date isn't Witzel's idea, but has been well established in scholarship for more than a century. The 3000 BCE date is pure myhology, deriving from astrological calculations made in the 6th century AD. If you insist on accepting 6th century results without scrutiny over the results of modern academia indebted to the critical method, you will have to take more serious consequences than rejecting the age of some text. First of all, you shouldn't be using a computer, and you should certainly not be on Wikipedia, which is a project to 100% dedicated to the critical method. I can respect the mythical worldview, but if you decide this is how you want to see the world, you should have the decency not to interfere with approaches that are dedicated to modernity unambiguously and above the board. If you fail to make that distinction, you are guilty of the intellectual dshonesty known as pseudoscience. --dab (𒁳) 09:51, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sikh status

In the first bit, couldn't Sikhs be combined with Buddhists and Jains as nastika? Why are they mentioned separately, if they also do not accept the Vedas?71.191.42.74 (talk) 22:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The philosophy of vedas

The Vedas and any Vedic literature that have been preserved by school of thoughts and by teaching traditions in India actually bears no connotation to Hinduism as such, as the word Hindu does not even come among the thousands of verse. The word Hindu is the etiquette that Mughals gave to people residing in the territory of India and Pakistan of yore whereas the Vedas does not make any discrimination, it is pure spirituality and it would be a gross exaggeration to even consider it as part of a so call religion as the message is strictly universal. Throughout the ages this has been confined to high caste men in India, violating the ancient tradition of transmitting the knowledge of the Vedas, hence it being considered as the property of a few.The first major revival came with Swami Dayanand Saraswati, the founder of Arya Samaj, hundred and eighty years back, which brought a revolution in the spiritual, political and religious landscape of India. He prone spirituality, and reaffirmed the role of religion as that to lead to spirituality by eradicating many flaws where falsehood and false practices were among the major ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veesham (talk • contribs) 08:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Vedas/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

This article does not meet the Good article criteria and has therefore failed. Issues include:

  • Insufficient references. The following content is a sample of information that needs more references:
    • " Yajurveda" section
    • " Brahmanas" section
    • " Vedanta" section

There are also a number of "citation needed" tags, which should be addressed before this article is renominated. Gary King (talk) 23:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The mention of Sri Aurobindo's Secret of the Veda[6] at the introduction is not justified and will need elaboration. The Vedas , need to projected like a formation and thus will need heavy introductory citation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.206.137.72 (talk) 00:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I am going to add this link to the bottom of the page: http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/ This site is one of the largest if not the largest Repository online of Vedic Literature in Sanskrit.--Uncreated (talk) 18:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

unnecessary promotion of Maharishi. These texts are all found on GRETIL and other academic sites. --dab (𒁳) 20:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I checked out the GRETIL site and there seems to be alot of texts there...but I wonder if you even looked at the MUM vedic reserve site. At the GRETIL site i could only find 7 of the 18 Smriti and none of the 18 upasmriti. I think its hardly promotional to have a site linked that has a comprehensive repository of vedic literature. There are a number of texts on the MUM site that have been transcribed from microfiche of Palmleaves and are not found anywhere else on the internet or in print. --Uncreated (talk) 00:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

look, your link may be arguable -- it's not blatant spam. But you certainly seem to be suggesting it out of a WP:COI and not because of its objective usefulness. Mum's upasmriti is irrelevant to this article, which deals with Vedic literature. It may be useful to the smriti article though. That said, I am impressed with the number of texts they have. It's just that they are less than useful because they are (a) encoded in devanagari only, which makes it a pain to find anything in them, and (b) you have to dig through layers of pseudoscientific babble before they give you the actual text (Layer I of the cerebral cortex — the plexiform˜layer — does not send projections outside˜itself, and it receives projections from all˜other layers. It is self-referral wholeness,˜corresponding to Rk Veda Pratishakhya. I ask you.) I suggest we use these links for articles on really obscure texts where we don't have a viable alternative. E.g. we could link this file (the pdf) from the Pratishakhya article, without linking to this page. --dab (𒁳) 10:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be disagreeable but how do I have a COI? I think this site is useful to have linked because there are many Vedic texts there not available in other places...these texts are not littered with commentary and they are in Sanskrit and not a translation. How is that not Objective?

Of course that sounds like a good idea...to link directly to the PDF. Its not just the Smriti's but there are many vedic texts available there that do not appear in the two links provided. For instance i don't see any of the Aranyaks or Vedangas either...here is an index of all available texts: http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/index_of_vedic_literature.htm

I would like to point out though that the Site which this information appears on is an academic Site being the website of an accredited university in America. The two links provided at the bottom of the Veda Wiki seem to have limited texts available on them. Of course they are in English and these are not...but surely any Vedic scholar would only be interested in reading from the orignal text not some translation.

Also thousands of Vedic Pundits in India (associated with Maharishi or not associated) use these texts...in particular the Rg , Sama, Yajur and Atharva Veda texts available from this site.--Uncreated (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • All about the Veda This is my effort to share what I learn about the Vedas from the various books that I read. The goal (view) is non-colonial, non-Marxist, non-Sayana (materialist-animist-nature worship). You may include it if you think it is useful. ~~satyask

non-Marxist, eh? Well done. Damn all those Marxist editions of Vedic texts. The hammer-and-sickle motif they use to separate chapters is particularly annoying. And the preposterous footnotes identifying tapas as class-struggle. I ask you. --dab (𒁳) 12:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Buddhist and Jain view of the Vedas

I found the following description of the Buddhist and Jain view of the Vedas in the introduction: "human expositions of the sphere of higher spiritual knowledge." That is not true. The Buddhist view is that the Vedas are not expositions of the sphere of higher spiritual knowledge. I do not know the Jain stance but it is no doubt the same. I have included a reference on the Buddha's stance. Mitsube (talk) 03:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, but describing them as "heterodox" is like describing islam as a "heterodox" christianity. It is not, its an independent religion. Buddhism and Jainism is not hinduism, they're independent religions. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 11:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Islam was in fact seen as a Christian heresy for centuries. It's an excellent example of how you can't just draw a line between "independent religions". It is a matter of definition, and often also of opinion. --dab (𒁳) 12:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bible and dating

I know of no evidence that Biblical literalism has played any significant role in the dating of the Vedas. It certainly does not with modern scholars. Evidence need to be cited to reliable sources. Thomas Trautmann's Aryans and British India, and his later writings discuss the histories of these ideas in detail, as does Arvidsson's Aryan Idols. Paul B (talk) 11:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

we should also discuss these ideas in detail, but not here of course. Hindu revivalism may be a good place to start. This article could then sport a brief summary in an "in Hindu revivalism" section. I think this is mostly connected to Arya Samaj, so maybe proper to discuss it there. Somebody would need to do it of course, and unfortunately it isn't very common to see editors of the ilk of Santhangopal (talk · contribs) sit down and compile an honest encyclopedic discussion of the history of their own ideologies even after they are pointed to the relevant literature. --dab (𒁳) 12:52, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

anonymous "improvements"

The "Vedic" articles will always get editors without the first clue who still take it upon themselves to "correct" them. Well, many technical articles get this, even in physics topics etc., but for some reason this effect is a couple of orders of magnitude more severe in Indian topics than on average. This may be cultural, in some cultures it is more important to assert knowledge than to fiddle with technical details. I presume this is what Amartya Sen calls The Argumentative Indian.

The solution, in my opinion, is semiprotection, not appeasement by streamlining the article in an attempt to make ill-advised "improvements" as unlikely as possible. Experience shows that once a technical article is well-developed, chances of anonymous editors making an edit that actually improves the article rapidly falls to zero. "Edit this article right now" is Wikipedia's secret of success for starting out coverage on badly documented topics, but the same principle becomes an impediment from the moment an article reaches a certain level of sophistication. We have long-term semiprotection exactly to account for this, and there is no shame in using the tool wherever it benefits the project. --dab (𒁳) 08:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is Vedic scripture the oldest known written scripture? ?

In the Hinduism page it say's that Hinduism is the oldest known religion I think. So if the Vedas are the oldest known then well then here scripture in Hinduism, does that make the Vedas the oldest known scripture's? Or maybe the oldest known religious scriptures? 71.105.87.54 (talk) 09:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

no they aren't, as they were not written, as explained in this article they were handed down by guru-shishya tradition for a millennium before first written down. There is far older religious scripture, if you want to call it that, from Ancient Near Eastern religions. --dab (𒁳) 09:43, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pranava Veda

  • This article has been shying WRT Pranava Veda, but there are more citations now found. "All vedas are derived from basic one veda called Pranava" ref Title Vaasthu Shastra, Author Alahar vijay, Publisher, Sura Books, 2005 ISBN 8174784292, 9788174784292" Page Number 22 [7].
  • "At the top of all, there is one more thing brought to be scholarly notice, that is, the existence of Veda called Pranava Veda" Ref: Page 73, Building architecture of Sthāpatya Veda" Author V. Ganapathi Publisher, Published by Dakshinaa Pub. House, 2001 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized May 20, 2009 Length 431 pages Subjects, Architecture, Domestic Architecture, Hindu Hindu architecture House construction Vāstu. Book Preview [8]
  • More References can be found now. 796 Hits on Google Books. [9] Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 16:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Several points:
  • Neither of the two sources you cite are close to reliable on the subject of Vedas.
  • On top of that, you excised the quote from Vaastu Shastra, which actually says, "All vedas are derived from basic one veda called Pranava Veda, according to Shilpa Shastra" (emphasis added) Please don't misquote sources here again.
  • The whole issue of the so-called Pranava Veda and its status as the primary/fifth veda was discussed to death back in 2007, including in a section above, and the situation has been explained at Pranava Veda and the pages it links to.
As has been explained before, the idea of an "original" single Veda is common in post-Vedic literature and is already discussed in the section on the Puranas in the article. If you find a specific reliable reference for which Śilpa Śāstra has something to say on the topic, we can add that to the post-Vedic discussion, but I hope we won't need to go through a whole new round of "I didn't hear that" and tendentious editing. To avoid further disruption I'd highly recommend that you propose and gain consensus for any further changes to the article along these lines. Abecedare (talk) 16:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, I did not revert your changes for the same reason, and will wait until more consensus towards the topic is reached. Some time before we saw there was hardly any information available, now there are more details along with healthy citations that cannot be easily ignored. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I fully agree with Abecedare that the material should have been removed. We have covered this sort of issue at great length before. Please be sure to build agreement on the talk page before adding similar material again. Thank you for your interest in the article. Buddhipriya (talk) 17:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, you people are better to judge that me, I have collected the necessary citations. There are enough creditable references now. I only wish someone adds them now.Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If anything is to said about Pranava Veda it should be done on one of the articles about that subject, not here. This article covers specific texts dating from a different time period than the much-later theories you are discussing. Buddhipriya (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
indeed. the first line of the page points to Veda (disambiguation), which in turn duly lists Pranava Veda. If people cannot even take note of the very first line of an article before complaining on talk, thre is little we can do (use giant red letters? blink tags?) --dab (𒁳) 18:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did my duty of putting light on something that was not covered and providing additional references those which were not available before, if you think they are still not enough, you can wait until the milk is spilled over.Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dab, thank you for all you do to keep the quality of articles high. It is said that speech is the Brahmin’s weapon (Manu 11.34), but it is unwise to strike a friend for doing something you do not agree with. One who speaks with authority should use soft words unless hard ones become necessary. (Cf. Manu 2.161 and Wikipedia:Civility) Buddhipriya (talk) 18:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Error or not time will tell. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 18:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ganeshji, forgive the word "error", I have amended it. Buddhipriya (talk) 18:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

well, I do not make a point of following advice in the Manusmriti, but perhaps this is to my detriment, who knows. Ganesh J. Acharya, we have an article entitled Fifth Veda. We also have articles on Vastu Shastra, on Mamuni Mayan and on V. Ganapati Sthapati. If you feel you have additional material that may usefully be added there, you are most welcome to do so. This article deals with the texts written in Vedic Sanskrit, predating Panini. Unfortunately, your references to not seem to establish where this "Pranava Veda" was first mentioned. Apparently in Vastu Shastra literature (but in which text?) -- this would be for you to establish. Please do help us pinpoint where this concept originates. But take the matter to Vastu Shastra, as these texts are medieval and do not fall within the scope of this article. --dab (𒁳) 10:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Age of the Vedas

kuzutsu (talk) 06:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)Debayan Gupta[reply]

1. The age of the vedas given here seems to be based on the premise of the Aryan Invasion theory, which is heavily disputed by scholars[10], and recent evidence seems to prove it wrong beyond doubt .[11]

2. Dating the vedas using astronomical events leads to an age of around 6000 BCE [12]

3. The date of the drying up of the Saraswati river, and consequent migration of the Saraswati Valley Civilization to Harappa and Mohenjodaro puts the vedas at an age of at least 3300 - 4000 BCE.[13]

4. Other evidence, such the the ancient flint mines in the Rohri Hills [14], the discoveries made in south eastern Baluchistan [15] also provide dates far older than 1500BCE.

Given the fact that current research seems to indicate that the dates provided here may be erroneous, should we not put up newer estimates, or, at least, a caveat that the values currently provided may not be correct ?

PS. On the matter of the "cow" (and other mistranslations) - Translating the vedas comes with one obvious requirement: knowledge of Sanskrit. Unfortunately, many translators seem to have forgotten this basic fact.

All words in the Sanskrit language are made up of smaller words, which describe the object that the word is lined to - there are no nouns, as such. These pieces each have multiple meanings, depending on context (position, location of vowels, etc.).

For example, the word for "heart" is "hridayam". Separating the characters (using the Devnagri script) we get "hra + dah + yam". Expanding these "sub-words", it becomes "harati + dadati + yam", which, in English translates to "takes + gives + circulates".

Now, the word "Gau", in any Sanskrit dictionary, means "Earth", then "Cow" (other meanings include movement, knowledge, etc.)

One of the Riks in the Rgveda speaks of "the distance between heaven and earth", putting it at 1000 gaus, one on top of the other - what they mean is 1000 times the diameter of the Earth - this Rik is translated as "1000 cows stacked on top of each other" in almost every English translation of the Vedas available.

Thus, instead of astronomical distances, we end up with a profusion of cows.

The name

The article should be titled 'Veda' rather than the English plural form, according to Wikipedia naming conventions. This has been proposed twice before, but not followed through. Imc (talk) 06:30, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Previous proposals are at [16] and [17]; limited discussion but it is mostly in favour of the singular name as correct in itself, and in terms of the Wikipedia NC.


Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved, no consensus to move. Taelus (Talk) 14:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Vedas → Veda — Relisted. harej 08:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As detailed in the section above. Imc (talk) 19:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • oppose. This isn't about just any number of Vedas, it is about the four Vedas. This is different from keeping an article about hammers at Hammer, or an article about sonnets at Sonnet, which examples illustrate the meaningful application of the "singular" naming guideline. --dab (𒁳) 22:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then it should be 'The four Vedas', or 'The Vedas', or something specific which at least implies more precision. Keeping it at 'Vedas' does not at all say that it is about only the four primary ones, it might even imply that it is about all of them. Imc (talk) 07:43, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a "wide" and a "narrow" usage of the term "Veda" which occasionally leads to some mild confusion, even in the best of sources. Following the "wide" usage, "Vedas" refers to four kinds of literature, viz. Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka and Upanishad. The auxilliary literature (e.g. the Vedangas, the Upavedas, and possibly the Puranas and Ithihasas) are occasionally (though erroneously, IMO) included in the "wide" usage. Following the "narrow" usage, "Vedas" refers to the Samhita portions only (hence the occasional contrast made between "the Vedas" and, for example, "the Brahmanas"), of which there are four, viz. Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva.

Samhita is currently a disambiguation page. If the topic is to be limited to "the four Vedas" (narrow usage), Veda Samhitas would be appropriate. If the topic is to be kept as it is, i.e. including discussion of the Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads etc. (wide usage), Vedic literature (currently a redirect to Vedas) would be appropriate.

This may entail specifying some article titles, e.g. renaming Rig Veda to Rig Veda Samhita. Or it may entail a slight reshaping of some of the relevant articles. For example, treating Rig Veda as referring to the entire set of Rig Vedic texts (i.e. Samhitas, Brahamanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads) instead of as referring to the Samhita portion only while treating the Rig Veda Brahmanas, Rig Veda Aranyakas and Rig Veda Upanishads as "ancillary texts" (as the article currently does).

In any event, it seems the current mode of organization considers "Veda" as being synonymous with "Samhita" (an inference drawn from the fact that Rig Veda has no section entitled "Rig Veda Samhita", but sections on "Rig Veda Brahmanas" and "Rig Veda Aranyakas"). If this is applied consistently throughout the encyclopedia, then Vedas would naturally treat the Samhita portion only (or at least predominantly, with the ancillary text groups treated in an entirely analogous fashion in the same article). It seems that, though minor tweaks could be made to help make this clearer, the principle of organization which has been adopted thus far is being applied consistently, and no significant change is needed - though, as noted above, the title "Vedic literature" would probably help to clarify the problem noted by the OP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.75.167.146 (talk) 08:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

no, the current mode of organization does not consider "Veda" as being synonymous with "Samhita". If you read the articles, you will note that the current mode explains the differences in terminology. Especially, this article, it discusses the term "Veda", then the Samhitas, then the other Vedic texts. I think this is perfectly satisfactory and I see no reason to move things around. --dab (𒁳) 21:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bona-fide Comments

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu confirms that all Vedic literatures, including the Upanishads, Brahma-sutra and others, whether sruti, smriti or nyaya, must be understood according to their original statements. To describe the direct meaning of the Vedic literatures is glorious, but to describe them in one's own way, using imperfect senses and imperfect knowledge, is a disastrous blunder." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.132.128.162 (talk) 08:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]



APPEAL TO YOU Reg: [BRAHMAN PUJAN] , [UNIVERSAL PRAYERS] . written by [Naresh Sonee] On wikipedia , These above two pages are far older than the present article [Brahman] References of above titles are also available on New York site - http://www.printsasia.com/BookDetails.aspx?Id=445813482 Meanwhile, Can your good selves in Wiki Project Indian Community re-create a precise pages on [Naresh Sonee] & his book [Brahmand Pujan] – [Brahmaand Pujan] . However, Sonee is the writer of this book [Brahmand Pujan] written in 1999 . registered with Government of India- HRRD. Details of the registration is provided here on http://brhmaandpujanbook.tripod.com/ . More than sufficient, news and reviews are there on http://brhmaandpujan-news-reviews.tripod.com/ Since 5-6 yrs, for one or the other reason pages of [Naresh Sonee] & [Brahmand Pujan] are faced by communal bias from outside India so these articles over and again get deleted here in Wikipedia for minor reasons. However, many hits of - Naresh Sonee reflects on google search engine also. So, I request Wiki Indian community to kindly come forward and generously help these two pages to grow, as I am fed up to fight my case alone here [left] and moved out long back. Meanwhile, such an important info/issue on ‘Indian literature’ which adds & spell ‘new meaning /dimension’ to Brahman -should it stay lost else ignored? Your community panel has to judge at last. Myself, will not be on Wikipedia, for the same i apologise, but- pls. help these two pages to get reinstalled, reap, sow and grow, if you too feel so, I appeal to do this munificent favour. Regards- Dralansun (talk)

  1. ^ http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/vedol-MG-X.html
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vedas&oldid=404428438"