Talk:Climate change

Record low temperatures at global warming summit

Could we include this reference in the article:

http://theweek.com/article/index/210181/irony-alert-the-unusually-chilly-global-warming-summit

"As negotiators from nearly 200 countries met in Cancun to strategize ways to keep the planet from getting hotter, the temperature in the seaside Mexican city plunged to a 100-year record low of 54° F."

SuzBenson (talk) 04:41, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

And how would the temperature in a single city on a single day have any relevance to an article about long-term global temperature trends? --CurtisSwain (talk) 05:53, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

That's right. How would the temperature in a single situation on a single day have any relevance. The Global Warming propagandists should keep this in mind when they say such things as "It's a record hot day in Atlanta, must be Global Warming." Global Warming is not science it is partisan politics and should be treated as such, including here on wikipedia.98.165.15.98 (talk) 03:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Why that would clearly be an innacurate basis for global warming most of the global warming data its through study of long term temperature data and not simply it hot toady therefore global warming is real. I doubt few if any published studies have tried to confirm global warming based on one hot day.--76.66.180.54 (talk) 07:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It was making a point. Few doubt that we went through a hot spell but many in Europe now believe we are entering a cold spell with poor summers for the last four years and increasingly bad winters with record cold temperatures in some countries like Britain. (Cyberia3 (talk) 00:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC))

Five isn't "many" compared to the population of Europe. Also see the FAQQ4. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Still No Adequate Representation of Skeptical Perspectives In This Article

Every now and then I check back to this article to see if the "Editors" have allowed any skeptical information to creep into the article. Unfortunately, this article is still lacking any serious acknowledgment of the skeptical perspective.

The only times the skeptical perspective is even mentioned it is at the end of the article and couched in the fact that skeptical scientists are "funded" by the oil industry. Well, they aren't ALL funded by the oil industry. And sadly, there is no mention of the fact that many of the advocates' funding comes from government sources that would benefit from increasing regulation on energy production.

In the past, I have suggested that the folks who have editorial control over this page would be more intellectually honest if they would include a prominent skeptic who could negotiate a more balanced perspective. My suggestions were deleted by some ambitious editor. I suppose it was vandalism of some sort.

So, here I am again, pushing the idea of AT LEAST INCLUDING someone from the skeptical side of the aisle who could provide proper balance. I mean, are you people so threatened that you can't even listen to the other side?

Now, there is plenty of precedence on Wikipedia for including alternate perspectives in the presentation of controversial subjects (even when the alternate view has it's own article). Some examples:

• If you look at the page for Creationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism), the article is fairly balanced between explaining the views that support and those that differ. The article explains the sources of various perspectives on the issue. There is also an article for Natural Selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Selection) - so, there is precedence for including the contrarian view even if there is an article dedicated to the contrarian view.
• The page for American Exceptionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) includes the counter-argument for American Exceptionalism in the second paragraph. So, that's very prominent.
• The third paragraph of the article on Animal Testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_testing) includes the perspectives of both those who favor the practice as well as those who oppose it.

I propose that the Global Warming article would be stronger if skeptical perspectives were given proper treatment. Unfortunately, I expect that some "editor" will simple delete this suggestion as irrelevant. And of course, that would be dishonest. Mcoers (talk) 04:14, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

COMPLEXITY ISSUES - - Another area of concern that should be addressed is the very complex nature of the issue. The issue is not an either/or issue, yet too often climate change is presented as if it were, and that people should support one position or the other. The truth is not just a question of whether climate change is happening, but several other questions, such as: - - How severe is the climate change, if any? - What part do humans play in climate change? - How important is CO2 in affecting climate change? - Whether the other influences on climate, such as the sun's variability, outweigh the impact of human actions. - - The economic costs of climate change - Whether the effort to prevent climate change is possible, or desirable. - The economic costs of trying to mitigate or prevent climate change. - Whether CO2 is a pollutant, it being a natural substance useful to plants. - - Scientists no doubt would add many other aspects to this list. - - It seems likely that the debate on climate change is a "false dichotomy", in which many people seem to demand people choose either/or, rather than recognizing that there is a multiplicity of possibilities that are not clear cut, and which, therefore, do not allow for an easy solution, even if one is desired. - - The costs of trying to prevent climate change, for example, could be disastrous to poor countries, just as some claim that climate change itself is disastrous to such countries. - - Some have also pointed out that humans have generally been better off in warmer climates rather than colder (due to the impact on crops, etc.) - Higher temperatures might cause problems for some areas, while opening huge areas for growing crops, such as in Canada and Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.72.25 (talk) 12:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

You don't have a reliable source or a specific piece of text to add, removed, or change. Therefore what you have isn't a "proposal" in the sense leading towards an edit to the article, but a "request." I'm sure someone will disagree with your request, but in my opinion ignoring it would be preferable giving your comment's lack of good faith. --CaC 174.52.224.148 (talk) 05:13, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The problem in the case of this article is that the editorial process is controlled by people who delete all information that doesn't support their political cause. So, in this case, the proposal is to add qualified "skeptical" reviewers to the process so that people who do propose legitimately sourced information can have it reviewed in a process that is actually democratic. Rather than the current process which is terribly flawed.

In this case, I properly sourced the issue of providing alternative points of view within Wikipedia articles. So, no, it's not in bad faith. It's presented here in the context of the circumstances where information is systematically deleted if it doesn't support the cause of global warming. In this case, we can't improve the article until we improve the review process for making edits. Mcoers (talk) 05:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Anyone who has graduated grade school is "qualified" to know that every single Global Warming prediction made prior to this date has turned out 100% false, and there have been many Global Warming predictions made prior to this date.98.165.15.98 (talk) 00:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of what you or I believe, I appreciate your act of good faith by proving a proposal. Before I move on to the discussion below, I just have one thing to say. Article talks are for the article, never the editors. What you are suggesting belongs at a notice board, I suggest either reliable sources noticeboard for the wider community to look at your sources, or more directly the administator's noticeboard if you believe there is editor abuse. --CaC 174.52.224.148 (talk) 05:48, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I have already posted this information months ago to the administrator's noticeboard. I might as well have explained the problem to the rock beside my garage. Nothing has changed. It never does, despite the fact that hundreds of people have been on this discussion page proposing well-sourced information that has been summarily deleted. Wikipedia loses credibility when it does not include the ENTIRE story. Mcoers (talk) 06:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

This is what I have in reply:

1. So you have posted to the Administrator's noticeboard? Perhaps not under a different name, because your edit contributions says otherwise.
2. I looked at the proposal. A link to Archive 58 would have sufficed. In reading the previous discussion, this is my view:
1. If this is about content: You don't have to YELL. What you are saying is clear, but others disagree with you, and you have not provided a satisfactory reply that would convince them otherwise.
2. If this is about actual editor abuse: I'd like to see evidence, or you may present evidence at the administrator's notice board (which would be better).

Beyond that I have nothing to say. --CaC 174.52.224.148 (talk) 06:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, well, this is what I have to say to you CaC:

1. The only reason I re-posted the article proposal is because you said that you wanted to see a properly sourced article edit. So, I re-posted it. Obviously just leaving it in the archives doesn't do any good.

2. Yes, I did post a complaint about editor bias. If you can't find it, then perhaps it isn't there anymore. I have only one user credential for this site, and I don't pretend to be other people.

3. So, if people disagree with me, then that is grounds for eliminating my proposal from consideration? Well, that's great because I disagree with the way the entire GW article is written. So, by your logic the entire thing must be removed immediately. Hey, we may not agree, but the way these things are supposed to operate you need to give the opposing side a voice.

Obfuscating the lack of editorial diversity here by discounting dissenting opinion on the basis of any of dozens of technicalities does not make the case for Global Warming. Want proof of it? Well, I've just pointed out the fact that there is no mention of legitimate skepticism in the leading paragraphs of the article. If you need a link in order to make the point legit, then here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming. I have also sourced other articles that cover controversial subjects that do contain dissenting opinions. Those links are in the above thread. If you need me to repost them, I can; but then you'd get after me for re-posting information.

There is no mention of climategate at all.

The graphs that are included are created by some "dude" with an organization called, "Global Warming Art Project". What the heck is that?! So, if I have an art project called the "Skeptical Global Warming Art Project", then does that mean my stuff qualifies for publication here?

The timelines of these charts are cherry-picked to show a far more dramatic climb in temperature than what would be shown if the author used almost any other timeline. An improvement would be to show a chart of the last 10 years of global temperatures (which would show a decline). That way readers can see that, in fact, temperatures stopped going up around 1998. Mcoers (talk) 14:02, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you believe your points are self-evident, which they are not. You don't need to repost an earlier post. List your main points, because right now I'm not quite sure which points you want me or someone else to reply to. --CaC 174.52.224.148 (talk) 15:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Really? You mean to tell me that you actually don't understand what I'm saying? Here, let me say it again.

I want the editors who have authority to modify this page to allow skeptical information to be included in the presentation. There, do you understand that? Mcoers (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I understand. Obviously your discussion lies with the "editors" and not me. --CaC 174.52.224.148 (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Since global warming is a long term change in the ten year average, looking at one particular decade would show nothing about global warming one way or the other. Look at the graph. The yearly averages go up and down, the ten year averages go up and up. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:09, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

COMPLEXITY ISSUES

Another area of concern that should be addressed is the very complex nature of the issue. It is not just a question of whether climate change is happening, but several other questions, such as:

How severe is the climate change, if any? What part do humans play in climate change? How important is CO2 in affecting climate change? Whether the other influences on climate, such as the sun's variability, outweigh the impact of human actions.

The economic costs of climate change Whether the effort to prevent climate change is possible, or desirable. The economic costs of trying to mitigate or prevent climate change. Whether CO2 is a pollutant, it being a natural substance useful to plants.

Scientists no doubt would add many other aspects to this list.

It seems likely that the debate on climate change is a "false dichotomy", in which many people seem to demand people choose either/or, rather than recognizing that there is a multiplicity of possibilities that are not clear cut, and which, therefore, do not allow for an easy solution, even if one is desired.

The costs of trying to prevent climate change, for example, could be disastrous to poor countries, just as some claim that climate change itself is disastrous to such countries.

Some have also pointed out that humans have generally been better off in warmer climates rather than colder (due to the impact on crops, etc.) Higher temperatures might cause problems for some areas, while opening huge areas for growing crops, such as in Canada and Russia.

W —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.72.25 (talk) 12:40, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

These issues are already covered in the article. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Change to the First Paragraph of Global Warming Article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Aimless discussion wandered off and died.

---

Back in January of this year, I proposed the following change to the Global Warming Article. At the time, it was swept under the carpet despite a significant level of support from other Wikipedia editors who are blocked from making edits to the Article. I would like to re-propose this edit in light of my previous suggestion that we allow Skeptical perspectives to be included in the article:

---

Begin Proposal

---

Global warming is a scientific theory that became popular in the 1980s to explain the observed increase in global temperature. The theory was proposed as a human-caused phenomenon, and is often referred to as Anthropomorphic Global Warming (AGW). Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) between the start and the end of the 20th century. However, the most recent decade has seen temperature declines in North America, Australia, and Europe. As a result, the controversy over human-caused global warming has increased. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), The University of East Anglia, the National Academy of Sciences, and dozens of other education and governmental institutions have recently come under increased scrutiny as revelations of missing source data and allegations of fraud revealed in the "Climategate" scandal have called some of the fundamental assumptions made by leading AGW scientists into doubt. Sources to cite:

Source to cite to substantiate the fact of decreasing N. American temperatures over the last decade:

• http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/cag3/na.html

Source to cite to substantiate the fact of decreasing European temperatures over the last 8 years (Compare Seasonal Averages):

• http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/2001/winter/averages.html
• http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/2009/winter/averages.html

Source to cite to substantiate the fact of decreasing Australian temperatures over the last decade:

• http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/hqsites/site_data.cgi?variable=meanT&area=nt&station=015135&dtype=raw&period=winter&ave_yr=3

Sources to substantiate the fact of increasing public scrutiny:

• Time Magazine: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1929071_1929070_1945175,00.html
• The Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/04/AR2009120404511.html?hpid=topnews
• The Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7009081.ece

Sources to cite to substantiate the initiation of fraud investigations:

• United Kingdom Parliament: http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/science_technology/s_t_pn14_100122.cfm
• Penn State press release regarding an investigation into Michael Mann: http://www.ems.psu.edu/sites/default/files/u5/Mann_Public_Statement.pdf
• Washington Times: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/dec/02/universities-take-action-on-climategate/
• Source to cite to substantiate the fact of the Climategate scandal: http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=803

Add Sections for:

• Climategate
• Decreasing Temperatures
• Global Warming Industry
• Climate Change Throughout History
• Opposing theories about CO2 and it’s effect on the climate

Leaked emails have surfaced showing leading proponents of AGW theory to have manipulated data and taken actions to destroy raw data in an effort to thwart Freedom of Information Act Mcoers (talk) 05:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, Climategate can't be used like that because the scientists have been cleared of scientific misconduct multiple times by the reports that were commissioned into the matter. Also, I was under the impression that (depending on which temperature chart you favour) that this year is going to be either the equal hottest or equal second hottest on record globally, so unless I've got that wrong, there can hardly be any justification that the temperature is declining. Hitthat (talk) 07:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

OMG! Hitthat - Are you suggesting that ClimateGate did not happen because the groups receiving funding for their AGW warming bias refuse to indict themselves for wrongdoing that would end further funding to their institutions? At what point will the gatekeepers of this totally bias article be taken to task for their continued “head-in-the-sand” approach filtering facts and agenda ? <Mk> 71.228.77.211 (talk) 02:49, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Hitthat, if you look at the NOAA website that I cited (http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/cag3/na.html), you can actually compare the various Month over Month (MoM) data trended for the last ten years (or any other period you choose). There has been an average decline of -0.66 degrees in North America between 2000 and 2010.

The averages fall out by month like this:

* January 2000 - 2010: -2.32

* February 2000 - 2010: -3.16

* March 2000 - 2010: +0.43

* April 2000 - 2010: -1.3

* May 2000 - 2010: -1.51

* June 2000 - 2010: +0.75

* July 2000 - 2010: -0.54

* August 2000 - 2010: -0.61

* September 2000 - 2010: +0.28

* October 2000 - 2010: -0.56

* November 2000 - 2010: +2.32

* December 2000 - 2010: -1.71

* Average temperature trend for the decade for North America: -0.660833333

Mcoers (talk) 13:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Additionally, Climategate can and should be used "like that" because the emails that were disclosed clearly show these scientists colluding to avoid compliance with FOIA requests to see their source data. In fact, no one has seen their source data. The only way they can come to the conclusions they do (like your mention of this being the "hottest" year on record - which it isn't) is by modifying the source data - I think the word they use is to "cleanse it". Well, the whole point of peer-review is that the peer must have access to the same data and be able to reproduce the result.

Since they've obliterated the ability to do that, I think it is reasonable to include the fact that the information is unverifiable.Mcoers (talk) 14:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I can see why you got nowhere with the administrator's noticeboard. The problems you identify are way beyond their powers to fix. You need to take these matters up with the UK House of Commons Science and Technology Committee, Lord Oxburgh of the Science Assessment Panel, and with Sir Muir Russell of the Independent Climate Change Email Review. Failing that, take your concerns straight to the United Nations, because they recently organised a Climate Change Conference in Cancún, Mexico, and seemed unaware of the points you are making. If you get anywhere with any of them, come back and let us know (e.g. the URL of the webpage where they retract their previous statements), and we will give the matter full and detailed coverage here. --Nigelj (talk) 18:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I see you are much more restrained these days Nigelj. It’s not like the heady days of Connolley and Schulz, when you all simply erased or blocked people from trying to correct the AGW bias. Your comments above are comical. What you’re basically saying is that you and your comrades are so tired of defending this bull crap at a grass roots level that you want us to take it to the UN Panel and other higher scam artist organizations. How funny – time to end the game… <Mk> 71.228.77.211 (talk) 03:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, this is just sarcasm. Obviously you should try and keep your comments productive. Isn't that right? Mcoers (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's sarcasm. While temperatures have maybe decreased on some continents within the last few years, you cannot provide a source that concludes that this decrease casts scientifical doubts on the global warming research. If you yourself conclude that, that's original research. So if you're really convinced that you can disprove GW theory, you should indeed contact the panels mentioned by Nigelj. Wikiepdia is certainly the wrong venue to discuss your research results. The fact that investigations have been performed about those hacked emails is not related with the science discussed on the article page. Sorry. 85.178.140.24 (talk) 21:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

You are tilting at windmills. 97% of active publishing climatologists support the science behind AGW and many reliable sources do the same, as listed in the the article itself or in articles linked from the article. It is not fair and balanced to try to force the same weight to the arguments of opponents on this article when those opponents do not have nearly as much backing them up, and right now the evidence shows counterexamples. Wikipedia is not the place to try to forge a new path for science to take, as Wikipedia follows the scientists in the field themselves. If you have an issue with the science, then take it up with the scientists. If they consistently reject you, then perhaps you should take a hard look at your own perception of the body of evidence, rather than trying to force Wikipedia to give undue weight to your preferred sources and trying to put original research in a scientific article. --Cornince (talk) 03:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Science isn't supposed to be the process of collecting together a bunch of like-minded partisans who go forth to promote their collective and negotiated mindset. It's supposed to be about the constant challenge of the scientific process.

I think that what I've provided here gives a justification for why skeptics have reason to believe that the AGW issue is overblown. This isn't a movement of oil industry hacks who are paid to have their opinions. I've listed off a decade of cooling in North America, backed by information provided by the NOAA; as well as information for the Southern Hemisphere and Europe. To my knowledge, these data don't exist to the public in other areas of Asia, Africa and so forth. So, it isn't something I'm able to cite as a source. Furthermore, I've given sourced information documenting the issues about corruption within the AGW research community.

• The researchers weren't found guilty of wrongdoing? What does that prove? O.J. Simpson was acquitted for murder, but that doesn't mean he didn't do something wrong!
• 97% of researchers believe something? I'd say 100% of Wikipedia editors believe in AGW - of course the "believers" squash out the "skeptics" here on Wikipedia in the same fashion they do in the literature, so the result is predictable. What percentage is required to disprove it? We all know the answer to that question.

At any rate, the controversy about AGW is a part of the story. It is blatantly ignored in this article. I think I'm making a very solid, sourced case, for changing the editorial process here, and not one of you is addressing that issue except with sarcastic, and I'll say flippant remarks which are not in the spirit of the type of discussion we're supposed to be having here.

I think it is entirely reasonable to respect the wishes of hundreds of contributing editors and help to make this article better by following the intent of the Wikipedia process and include a more diverse editorial review process, instead of pretending like the "other side" doesn't exist. Now, the question before you at this point is, are you on the side of freedom of thought and the thorough presentation of information, or are you just going to continue to push your political position and squash all dissenting perspectives in order to continue the appearance of consensus? Mcoers (talk) 16:38, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe most of your concerns are addressed by the FAQ page. Mishlai (talk) 20:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

As stated above, Wikipedia is not a forum for the discussion of the topic. We believe the article has given appropriate weight to both sides, as can be shown here:

"The scientific consensus is that anthropogenic global warming is occurring. Nevertheless, political and public debate continues."

There is also a section of the article devoted to the controversy, giving appropriate weight to both sides.

As stated in WP:UNDUE, "Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship," and reiterated many times throughout WP:NPOV.

Wikipedia is not a forum and if you have an objection to Wikipedia policy, then this is not to place to give it. --Cornince (talk) 21:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, you are ignoring the point of my proposal. Again: There needs to be skeptical representation among those who have the ability to make changes to this article. Failure to do that violates WP:NPOV. Furthermore, calling the fact of skepticism in a scientific theory pseudoscience is insulting to those legitimate scientists who do not agree with your assumptions (and yes, there are plenty of them). Perhaps you would like your work to be called a conspiracy theory?

Secondly, this page actually is, in fact, a forum for discussion for making changes to the article. That's what its for. If I attempt to make a change to the article without gaining consensus here first, then you would tell me to get consensus on the discussion page first. So, here I am doing it, and you say this isn't the forum for doing so. Can't have it both ways my friend.

Thirdly, the FAQ page is nothing but a bunch of excuses for tossing out legitimate criticism of the content of the page. The entire page is written from the perspective of someone who has zero intention of ever considering an opposing thought. Citing an FAQ that is created for the obvious purpose of suppressing dissent is not legitimate.

Finally, it is completely unreasonable to take the position that this one phrase at the end of the article is "giving appropriate weight to both sides". I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. Again, please address the point of my criticism. And again, the point is a lack of diversity in the editorial process here. Mcoers (talk) 22:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

My apologies. I meant to say that what you were wanting put in the article, as though it were equal in weight to the scientific consensus, fit under "plausible but currently unaccepted theories." --Cornince (talk) 22:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Which part(s) of the proposed paragraph are "plausible, but currently unaccepted theories"? What in that paragraph is factually inaccurate? Why, please be specific, should we not modify the current first paragraph to include this content? Mcoers (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The paragraph itself does not describe global warming, gives undue weight to skeptical arguments and omits important information regarding the scientific consensus:

1) The phrase "became popular" gives the impression that global warming is merely the latest fashion, and diminishes the fact that global warming enjoys broad scientific consensus.

2) The phrasing mentions the global warming recorded, but then refers to recent cooling in selected regions. This omits the fact that 2000-2009 was the warmest period measured globally and to an uninformed reader would give the impression that global warming has stopped or reversed itself, when that is not the scientific consensus. The scientific consensus that global warming is continuing and will continue is omitted.

3) Regarding the increased scrutiny, the phrasing gives the impression that global warming is a theory in crisis and is coming under increased scientific doubt, when in fact it is not. In addition, it omits the fact that in the CRU emails, several independent investigations have found no fraudulent activity by the scientists. Also, the fact of the scientific consensus is ommitted in opposition to this point.

4) The paragraph gives no description of global warming or the major scientific findings regarding global warming, as represented in the scientific consensus and described in the article, but simply leads the article with the negative position.

This paragraph omits important information regarding the scientific consensus and gives the reader a warped view of the appropriate weight of arguments, in violation of WP:UNDUE as described above. Adding this paragraph as the first would therefore severely diminish the quality of this article. --Cornince (talk) 00:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Amending point 1, "became popular" is a phrase unbefitting an encyclopedia on a matter of science. --Cornince (talk) 00:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Regarding this statement:

"Thirdly, the FAQ page is nothing but a bunch of excuses for tossing out legitimate criticism of the content of the page. The entire page is written from the perspective of someone who has zero intention of ever considering an opposing thought. Citing an FAQ that is created for the obvious purpose of suppressing dissent is not legitimate."

We are supposed to assume good faith in other editors until it can be shown that they did not act in good faith. If you wish to express doubts, then please follow the process outlined here: Wikipedia:Assume good faith. (My apologies, this comment was written by me, but I had forgotten to log in. Edited signature so my IP address won't show.) --Cornince (talk) 01:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Cornice, for taking the time and effort to give an patient, informed, and reasoned answer. It is ironic that those who hold absolute beliefs contrary to fact accuse others of not listening. It is the global warming deniers who reflexively reject all data they don't like, and uncritically accept anything that seems to support their view. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Well done, Cornice. --Nigelj (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Someone needed to do this. Thanks for taking the time to do it so well. Rollo (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

No, it isn't necessary. What is necessary is to figure out how to include skeptical information while retaining an accurate description of what the theory is about. Wikipedia shouldn't be a forum to "prove" global warming. It should describe what the theory is in the context in which it exists. This is the approach that is taken on other controversial subjects (as I pointed out in a previous post), and therefore it is the approach that should be taken for this one as well. Mcoers (talk) 19:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, Cornince. If I'm putting undue weight on something, then please explain how you would modify the first couple paragraphs to include an acknowledgment of the growing number of skeptical scientists who are publishing information that is contrary to the IPCC report? How do you include the fact that the few scientists who have access to the source data are hiding it from public review?

It is very important to make sure that this gets examined correctly. There are people who are proposing trillions of dollars in taxes that would have a hugely negative impact on the world economy and open the door to increased government/corporate corruption on a scale that perhaps has never been seen. Remember, Enron was built on this type of trading scheme - it is scary to think it could be so much larger.

The consequences of the "cure" for global warming could be far worse than the effects of the pollution. I see that you have a couple people on here clapping enthusiastically for your retort to my proposal, but you aren't addressing the issue that I'm presenting to the editors here:

Again, there is a lack of diversity among the editors of this article. Why can't there be a diverse group of editors? What are you afraid of?

The IPCC report, and much of the "consensus" information that is published in the literature all comes from the same few scientists who determine who gets to publish information in the literature and who have been caught suppressing the source data so that it cannot be independently reviewed. It is entirely appropriate for thinking people to have access to the underlying source data, as well as information on the methods used to normalize and cleanse it, so that the assumptions can be understood and the conclusions tested. The unsigned editor below in quoting the Investors.com article is trying to make that point. And it is an important one. The scientific method requires the theory to be falsifiable. We need to have a pluralistic discussion on the matter.

How on Earth can you be against such a Democratic process? Suppressing the fact that these scientists are colluding to avoid Freedom Of Information Act requests is a big deal. If it were any other subject, my guess is that you would be outraged.

I understand that we are supposed to assume good faith in the editors. So, I'm asking the folks here to *show* good faith and allow dissenting opinions to be expressed in this article. It will make the article stronger. If you disagree with how I worded the paragraph change, then show me how you would change it. Mcoers (talk) 19:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

"growing number of skeptical scientists" You are factually incorrect. 90% of actively researching climate scientists agree that temperatures have risen.[1] Temperatures fluctuate, for example solar cycles are eleven years,[2] ENSO three to five,[3] and IPO fifteen to thirty.[4] Therefore the standard for climate averaging is thirty years.[5] The trends for every major model for the last thirty years are positive.[6] To pick one of the hottest years due to ENSO and another in no now way shows a trend. To say temperatures are decreasing is plainly wrong. To give weight comparable to the scientific consensus is plainly undue. To conclude that temperatures are decreasing yourself is plainly original research. Undue weight (which is a part of NPOV) and no original research are Wikipedia's policies.

You've begun a thread on the conflict of interests noticeboard. If you're here to talk about people's motivation, keep it there. I have no reason to reply to what you have to say here.

Wikipedia is not a democracy. This is policy. The primary way in which editorial decisions are made on Wikipedia is through consensus (see WP:CON). Your text so far have failed either undue weight or original research. You do not have consensus. Unless you present references and text that satisfy undue weight and no original research, there doesn't need to be discussion. 67.190.48.91 (talk) 09:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Climate scientists aren't the only people that are qualified to weigh in on this issue. A question as large as this one needs to be answered by geologists and many other earth scientists as well as the climate scientists. You can't look at 10 or 100 years of climate data and come to a conclusion about this topic; older data must come from the geologic record. Thus, I argue that your point where you state '90% of actively researching climate scientists agree that temperatures have risen' is moot. Also, that point does not address the question of whether it is AGW or not, which read as if it were fact in one of the first few paragraphs. I had a geology professor who claimed to be sure that warming was going on, but was unsure if it was AGW. He was not a nutjob; he was respected in the department.

Note, I am still undecided on global warming as a whole. I came to this article to start my research on the topic and was so appalled with the way it read that I decided to start an account and get involved in the discussion here. Have a nice new year, cheers! Kevin Holzer (talk) 21:23, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

"A question as large as this one needs to be answered by..." You're right that it takes a diverse group of people to find the answers. Here's a list of professional societies that agree with the scientific consensus, and a list of individuals who disagree. By scientific consensus I mean : (1) temperatures have increased;[7] (2) natural phenomena produced most of the warming up to 1950,[8] but had a small cooling effect thereafter;[9] (3) most of the warming after 1950 can be explained by the release of greenhouse gases.[10]

Your geology professor isn't wrong to believe it's not human-induced, but something on your part is that I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. There is less agreement that "temperates have risen due to human activity" than simply "temperatures have increased". 82% instead of 90%.[11] Good luck on you research topic. If you're here to look for a balanced view, I have an paper you might find interesting. The previous links are just to show that I'm not BSing you, which turns out to be a problem here in that people place opinions before reliable sources. The paper is "Balance as bias: global warming and the US prestige press". 174.52.224.148 (talk) 23:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm printing the last article out right now to read on the bus to school tomorrow; while it may not be about climate change directly, it is certainly interesting to think about how science and the media interact with one another. Also, my prof was merely undecided on AGW (from what I gathered), as I am at the moment. Do you know of any studies like the one about the scientific consensus that looked more into how each discipline looked at climate change? I would be very interested in reading about that. Also, thank you for the link to the list of people that disagree; that was quite interesting to see concise statements about how and why each person disagrees. Also, if 82% agree; I would consent that that is scientific consensus (as far as the third article is concerned). Still, the weather is a hard problem (as it is a chaotic system) and the idea that people can predict what the global temperature will be like in 10 or 100 years is a little much for me at the moment to bite right into. I'd like to see some numbers on the performance of these models people are using (the next thing I will look into). From a brief look at the Global Climate Model article here, it appears that the models do not currently display enough accuracy to really make a prediction; right now the measured climate increase appears to be less than the accuracy of the models listed in the article (although it was a cursory glance; please correct me if I am wrong). My main comment on the article would be that it sounds very authoritarian when perhaps one cannot be on a problem of this nature. Have a nice rest of the night, cheers! Kevin Holzer (talk) 08:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Weather is chaotic. Climate is not, as far as we know. Compare a double pendulum on a train. You cannot predict the exact angles of the pendulum, but you can use the train's time table to constrain where the weights are quite well. Similarly, we cannot predict the weather far in advance, but we can determine the energy flows and hence the average temperature of the planet within the limitations of the models. And these limitations are not primarily fundamental (like chaos), but based on our knowledge and the computing power we throw at the problem. As for different disciplines, have you seen Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#cite_note-95 (the Doran&Zimmerman paper in EOS)? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

"how each discipline looked at climate change?" I can't think of any studies off the top of my head. The best I've got is Scientific opinion on climate change, which lists the positions of professional societies of various disciplines that have a comment on climate change.

Well, you've only really asked one question. Stephan's a good man, his explanation of how climate is a lot more concrete. I would of just told you that climate is "average weather" and you could discount annual fluctuations; and as our knowledge grows it's essentially stochastic processes. Look, it sounds like you've got a lot of reading to do. Do you want me to point to you a couple of books to get you started? 174.52.224.148 (talk) 20:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Kevin: take a look at [12], especially the FAQ. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:52, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

It is time the first paragraph had a makeover because it really doesn't reflect the current status of issue, is difficult to read and really doesn't describe the scope of the article. May I suggest:-

Global warming (also known as as Anthropomorphic Global Warming or AGW) is the theory that human activity, particularly the emissions of CO2 from burning fossil fuels, caused an apparent increase in average global surface temperature of 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) between the start and the end of the 20th century, and that further emissions will result in more warming. The concern over global warming started in the 1980s. When measured global temperature increased dramatically during the late 20th century, public concern rose until in ???? it was described as “the most important problem facing mankind”. This issue has generated much heated public debate, notably: the level of predicted temperature rise; the relative contributions of natural and man-made factors, and suggested future consequences of further emissions such as the predicted rate of sea level rise. Isonomia (talk)

I think there is a FAQ answer above that covers almost every change you are proposing to the existing wording. Please read them through, and perhaps some of the very lengthy discussions in the archives, then try to make specific, sourced proposals as to why each part should be changed. Then, if it turns out that recent scientific publications have changed the state of human knowledge, and that a consensus can be reached here over wording to summarise this recent knowledge, then we'll change the article. (Not just the first paragraph: the lede summarises the article, which itself summarises dozens of sub-articles, so they'll all need adjusting). Simply proclaiming that all this "really doesn't reflect the current status of issue", without citing exactly what's changed, is unlikely to change the existing consensus of all the hundreds of editors that watch this page. --Nigelj (talk) 22:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

  This latest proposal is not only unsourced but factually incorrect (as the first study accepted as having measured actual warming on a global scale wasn't till around 1995, and the increase was hardly "dramatic"). Along the lines of what Nigelj is saying, some of these folks seem to not understand that the lede is a summary of the article, not a thesis statement that they can tweak and then have the rest of the article fall in line. If there is some point where the summary "really doesn't describe the scope of the article", then it should be pointed out so we can take a closer look. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Come you guys, most of the FAQ dates from before climategate and was written by William Connolley and is cohort which hardly makes in NPOV. Things have changed! Global warming is no longer "settled" it is now a debate (as clearly stated by the Royal Academy). It is no longer "beyond doubt" but a theory that has failed to predict the current pause in global temperatures and the current unprecedented cold periods. It is ten years since there was any appreciable warming ... it is no longer viable to talk about "warming" in the present tense when there is no current warming. So, it is time you guys stopped living in the past and accepted the facts that this global warming article has become a laughing stock and the real irony, is that the sceptic community are quite happy to keep it that way! As for the "factually incorrect" comment of Johnson. Concern over warming started at the end of the 1970s when it was found that the predicted cooling hadn't occurred. It is there in the very first paper to mention global warming as a term because it was postulated that the reason the predicted global cooling was not happening was because there was CO2 induced global warming. Perhaps you guys are late comers to this subject or too young to have lived through the period of growing concern over global warming and can't recall the what happened in the pro-warming lobby in the 1990s because if you did you would realise that what I have written is a good short summary of the history of the subject - but if you don't think so then please build on what I have said! Isonomia (talk) 00:37, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

• There's no citations, no new science and nothing we can work with here. Your personal assertions do not change anything, we need references to published papers and to reviews of publications. I don't see any. If you have a problem over my age, or with any other editors' writing styles, please take it up on user talk pages. --Nigelj (talk) 01:42, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
• Do you get double points when you put your tired and mistaken talking points into bold face? Rasool and Schneider already pointed out the competing forcings of CO2 and aerosols in 1971 (not "the end of the 1970s"), and describe possible warming or cooling, depending on actual emissions. Your "science flip-flops" fantasy is not grounded in reality. And which "Royal Academy" are you talking about? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

This thread is not longer about Mcoers' proposal, which was the original topic. I believe this thread should be closed using {{Discussion top}} before it continues serves as a forum of needless debate. If Insonomia or another editor wants to continue discussion, he or she may begin with a new thread by providing a reliable source or a specific piece of text to add, removed, or change. 174.52.224.148 (talk) 03:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, this thread is precisely about the original proposal. I simply took what he said, looked at the current first paragraph, read the comments and built on it in the way that you are required to do in wikipedia. If you don't like that process then I suggest you stop editing rather than frustrating those who do want to work toward a better article. As for the comments: citations there's millions of citations out there and the intro isn't supposed to be full of citations because it is an overview of the subject. So this is a rather lame objection.

As for the current into it is a complete put off and fails even to define the subject. It is supposed to answer the simple question: "what is global warming". It doesn't do that, it doesn't give alternative terms for the subject it is in short a completely useless intro. Moreover it is completely out of date. It was written at a time when we were being told the subject was "settled". There is no question that that is very far from the case now. The type and range of debate is increasing almost monthly - no least because of the recent cold weather and the failure of the temperature to rise within the last decade. Isonomia (talk) 09:27, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

If you are trying to rewrite this article and its lead based on the fundamental misconception that the question whether anthropogenic warming is occurring is not settled, then you are going to have to do a lot of convincing. I don't think you will be successful, but your chances of success will be much higher if you present concrete reliable sources that other editors can check, instead of merely claiming without evidence (and IMO clearly erroneously) that the situation has changed. Hans Adler 11:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, it was the snow you had, was it? OK, just quote the URL of the RS that says that that snow disproved the whole 'AGW theory', and we'll go from there. Better be quick, because there's a chance that someone will reliably proclaim 2010 to be the warmest year on record soon, and that may spoil its impact. --Nigelj (talk) 12:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

All the snow we had a week ago has gone within 2-3 days. It's an unprecedented 12°C here, in January! Bye Isnomia's logic, the planet is gonna cook next week... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:45, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

  "The type and range of debate is increasing almost monthly"? Perhaps on talk radio, but not in the science. More claims without evidence. Whether this thread is still on-topic or not, I say it should be put out of its misery. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Mcoers- http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/cag3/na.html enter the period of interest from 1900 to 2010 and notice the trend.Ninahexan (talk) 06:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Huh? Okay, this discussion is not going anywhere, so I am going to be Bold and close it per a previous suggestion. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:18, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can Global Warming Be Falsified?

Please see WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Since, no matter what happens with the weather, global warming is blamed, the theory cannot be falsified, hence must be classified as pseudo-science. Can anyone here name a single bonafide scientific theory that is immune to falsification? From investors.com: "Karl Popper, the late, great philosopher of science, noted that for something to be called scientific, it must be, as he put it, "falsifiable." That is, for something to be scientifically true, you must be able to test it to see if it's false. That's what scientific experimentation and observation do. That's the essence of the scientific method. Unfortunately, the prophets of climate doom violate this idea. No matter what happens, it always confirms their basic premise that the world is getting hotter. The weather turns cold and wet? It's global warming, they say. Weather turns hot? Global warming. No change? Global warming. More hurricanes? Global warming. No hurricanes? You guessed it." http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/557597/201012221907/The-Abiding-Faith-Of-Warm-ongers.htm But since wikipedia is a leftist website, there is no chance that this non-falsifiable theory of Global Warming will receive adequate counter-argument in its propaganda article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.191.86 (talk) 08:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC) While I appreciate your interest in this topic, please note the banner at the top of the talk page.--CurtisSwain (talk) 08:59, 27 December 2010 (UTC) Curtis, this is a talk page where we are supposed to discuss improvements to the article. This person is legitimately pointing out the political nature of the kinds of information that are included in the global warming article. It is popular among other editors to attempt to silence this kind of objection on any number of technicalities. However, the same level of scrutiny is not applied to those proposing the inclusion of information that is supportive of the AGW theory. It is time to open this page up to a more democratic process of review. There is an increasing number of climate scientists who disagree with the "consensus" referred to in the IPCC report. The failure to acknowledge that fact is a glaring omission in this article. Instead of looking for some technicality to disqualify someone's contribution, why don't you do something positive and help us figure out a way to reconcile the article to include information that is being presented by skeptical scientists. Mcoers (talk) 19:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC) Science is not democratic. If fifty million people believe that the earth is flat, the wikipedia article should still state that the earth is round. Read the FAQs at the beginning of the article. The number of scientists who deny global warming is decreasing, not increasing. The evidence for global warming is increasing, not decreasing. The science behind global warming has been well understood for more than seventy years. The vast majority of people who provide talking points against global warming are politically or economically motivated and couldn't solve a freshman calculus problem to save their lives. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:50, 28 December 2010 (UTC) Rick Norwood, please try to keep a cool head. Also, Science is not Wikipedia. If 50 million people believed the earth was flat, it should be included in the article of Earth. Not because it is "right" or "wrong", but because it is believed. The amount of information about it, though, is limited by the inforcment of the Undue Weight rule. WikIpedia articles should have a NPOV, as you should know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunnar123abc (talk • contribs) 01:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC) Here's how it is practiced in all the science articles: the view that the earth is round should be stated as though it were fact (of course, it would still be referenced), and then further down the article, in the history section, there should be mention of the minority/fringe belief by the 50 million that the earth is flat, but it should be stated as their opinion. --72.155.192.9 (talk) 04:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC) Please ask your question over at WP:RD/S. ~AH1(TCU) 21:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC) There is no "should" about it, as popular opinion has nothing to do with science, is not required as ratification or commentary on science. Unless the article one has in mind is popular opinion about science, a common confusion. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC) Perhaps what we could include in the article, though, is the factors of falsifiability present for the anthropogenic global warming theory. ~AH1(TCU) 00:26, 31 December 2010 (UTC) I don't see how the (easy) question of falsifiability of global warming is any different from the question of how other scientific theories are falsifiable. All that would be necessary is to show that ten year average temperatures have not gone up but rather have gone down or stayed the same, or that CO2 levels have not risen, that the oceans are not rising and becoming more acidic, that the ice cap is not melting, that CO2 is actually transparent to infrared, or that burning fossil fuels does not produce CO2. Any one of these would "falsify" global warming. None are at all likely, but they could happen if the global warming deniers were correct. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:56, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 100% of climate predictions, where Global Warming was the theme, made prior to this date 1st of January 2011 has turned out to be 100% false.98.165.15.98 (talk) 17:29, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Definition

In the first sentence, why is the term "Global Warming" defined using the phrase "since the mid-20th century"? That seems to be an arbitrary restriction on the definition with no reference given. Global warming has been happening for 12000 years (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_glaciation#Land-based_chronology_of_Quaternary_glacial_cycles). Has this definition been erroneously transferred from "anthropogenic global warming"? Or does Wikipedia make no distinction between cause and effect? Mrdavenport (talk) 19:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

As per the article hat-note (before the first sentence), what you're looking for may be in Climate change or Paleoclimatology. --Nigelj (talk) 20:07, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Just so you know, the 'global warming' that has been happening for the last 12000 years was us comming out of an ice age. In other words, that doesn't really count because it would have happened anyway. The point is that it should have slowed down, and it hasn't. If it hadn't been for human intervention in the last couple of centuries, the climate would have stablised. Just because to things have the same effect doesn't mean they are the same. 81.187.148.35 (talk) 12:37, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for clearer definitions of terminology and wikipedia page structure on 'climate change'/'global warming'

I would suggest the wikipedia articles for 'climate change', 'global warming', etc. are in need of re-organising and re-writing in order to give the most accurate, impartial definitions of the terms according to common international usage. It is apparent to me that the definitions of climate change and global warming currently used in wikipedia have been overly influenced by contrarians in the debate. This is further evidenced by the comments in this discussion page on a 'fairer representation of the skeptical side'.

This article in the guardian gives a far clearer explanation of the term 'climate change' and 'global warming':

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/dec/21/what-is-climate-change

"Any process that causes adjustments to a climate system – from a volcanic eruption to a cyclical change in solar activity – could be described as creating "climate change".

Today, however, the phrase is most often used as shorthand for anthropogenic climate change – in other words, climate change caused by humans. The principal way in which humans are understood to be affecting the climate is through the release of heat-trapping greenhouse gases into the air.

Climate change is used interchangeably with another phrase – "global warming" – reflecting the strong warming trend that scientists have observed over the past century or so. Strictly speaking, however, climate change is a more accurate phrase than global warming, not least because rising temperatures can cause a host of other climatic impacts, such as changes in rainfall patterns."

Please could people respond if the agree or disagree? (86.152.178.230 (talk) 15:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC))

I think the best bit of that FAQ answer is where they say that the two are used "interchangeably". That's what we do here - allow normal usage rather than try to impose some structure from on high - in this regard. Any attempt at such imposition upon article naming would, I fear, just stimulate dramas where they are not needed. Ones that may take effort away from the real issues of keeping the actual material in the articles sane and realistic. --Nigelj (talk) 16:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

@Nigelj - In my opinion the best thing about the FAQ i posted is that it gives a short, accurate and useful description of both climate change and global warming. Having read some of the discussions above I can entirely understand your fear of stimulating dramas. I am certainly not suggesting that a definition is imposed from on high as it were. However, I think the goal of the article(s) should be to give as accurate descriptions as possible of common usage, rather than ones that merely have sane and realistic content. Can you see what I mean? 217.43.25.223 (talk) 03:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, as I think our article naming and textual usage shows, the two are used "interchangeably". Which is what the FAQ says. There is no real wedge you can drive in between them. Use whichever you prefer. --Nigelj (talk) 12:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

. I agree that climate change and global warming are generally used to describe the same phenomena (ie recent anthropogenic climate change). However the term climate change is more commonly used, because it is more descriptively useful. It makes sense to me to have the main article on anthropogenic climate change in climate change with well written introduction explaining the various terms. Perhaps Global Warming could be a subsection of the main article, explaining the historic use of the term and including information on recent warming trend in averaged global temperatures. I hope you take this as a contructive suggestion rather than criticism, I appreciate the amount of work that has gone into the article especially given the difficulties involved in this subject. 217.43.25.223 (talk) 14:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

The top of climate change says "For current global climate change, see Global warming." Seems pretty clear to me: this is about general climate change on Earth, for current changes see this. GManNickG (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

@GManNick , I think its reasonably clear, but I was trying to say that it could and should be better. Particularly it seems strange that the current article on climate change does not reflect the terms common usage. Most of the content of the current article would perhaps be more appropriately included in climatology. I'm sure there is a way of re-structuring the climate change related articles in wikipedia that would give more accurate useful descritions. The reason I raise these points is that I think it is important to have well written articles on these particular terms.217.43.25.223 (talk) 03:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's some reading relevant to this debate:

- nasa article on why they use climate change on their website rather than global warming http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/climate_by_any_other_name.html

- this article and study suggests that using 'climate change' instead of 'global warming' could negatively affect public perceptions of the issue. It notes that conservative strategist Frank Luntz also thought that switching terms from "global warming" to "climate change" would be an effective way for climate skeptics to downplay the urgency of the issue. Personally I don't agree with their interpretation. Cases where local temperatures don't increase tend to get interpreted, by certain politicians and sections of the media at least, as evidence against global warming, particularly the recent cold winters in Europe and US. I have noticed so called 'skeptics' trying to capitalise on this on many occasions.

- this study suggests the two terms are rated more or less equally in terms of their importance: http://woods.stanford.edu/docs/surveys/gw-language-choices.pdf (notes that this is contrary to Luntz interpretation)

- this study suggest that the two terms usage depends on politcal positioning, but suggests that recently 'climate change' is used more by democrats and 'global warming' by republicans http://sitemaker.umich.edu/jschuldt/files/schuldt__konrath____schwarz__in_press__poq_.pdf

I suppose there are various issues around the psychological responses the terms tend to elicit in the lay audience, and around the history of the politicisation of the two terms (particularly in the US) and how this interacts with public interpretation. However, I still maintain though that 'climate change' is both more accurate and useful. I would be interested to hear others' opinions. I hope people don't think I am wasting time and energy. I think this debate is worth having, and is certainly relevant to these articles. 217.43.25.223 (talk) 13:50, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe you need to be clear about what you are proposing. Are you saying that "Global warming" should be a redirect to "Climate change"? If you are unsure or looking for input, then my response is no. If you search the archive, issues similar to this have been raised before.[13][14] The consensus has been: (1) GW is about the current change in climate, (2) CC is about changes in climate in general, and (3) GW should link to CC in the hatnote. The reason being is the current rise in temperature is not projected to decrease significantly (significant being a 30 year average downward trend per the WMO), since GW does not suggest cooling/decrease, GW therefore gets the current rise in temperature. CC is more general, therefore CC describes a general changes in climate.

You don't have to agree with the line of reasoning. If you want to change this, you need be a whole lot more convincing than either GW and CC has been used interchangeably or CC is a more accurate term than GW. The level that would convince me is if (1) the majority of dictionary and etymology resources agree that CC and GW are synonymous or CC is a more accurate term than GW, and (2) the change in public usage of CC and GW is ubiquitous with CC or GW as the most common name. So far, dictionaries reflect the current usage on Wikipedia,[15][16] and it is not apparently clear that the common name of GW is CC or vise-versa. 155.99.230.82 (talk) 02:08, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

No, I wasn't saying that "Global warming" should redirect to "climate change". I am saying that the contents of climate change should describe GW/CC with an appropriate introduction explaining both terms' techincal meaning and common usage. I understand the difficulties here, in that the terms' technical meanings are different from those commonly used, they are sometimes used synonymously, and their relative usage has varied over time. I think I could show some evidence that (1) CC is generally considered more accurate and that (2) the most common name for GW/CC is CC. I don't want to waste peoples' time though, and I suppose I can understand if people feel that the current articles are as good as can be hoped for.217.43.25.223 (talk) 00:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Sounds appropriate. Sorry for misjudging your earlier posts. Of your two points, the Terminology section in CC already gives (1) the technical definition, and (2) its common usage that is synonymous with GW. In my opinion, this fulfills your second point. As for the first, in my opinion a technical definition of what it is, is better than a tangent about GW.

All this aside, do you have a proposal providing a specific piece of text to add, removed, or change? It's nice to argue abstracts, but if you're really inclined to not "want to waste peoples' time". Then an actual proposal leading to an edit to the article would be better than a request about something you believe. 155.99.230.140 (talk)

I would think "climate change" has to be considered a better/more accurate term, given that even proponents of the "global warming" theory state that global warming can actually cause cooling in certain circumstances. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.72.25 (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Global warming refers to the increasing ten-year average temperature of the earth. One effect of this warming is more extreme swings in temperature and also shifts in temperature in some parts of the world. For example, if the melting Greenland glaciers shift the Gulf Stream, England will become much colder and other regions may become much warmer. Climate change considers these local effects. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:49, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

older references

Please see WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
During the late 1950s and on B&W TV, HRH Duke of Edinburgh was the host for a series of TV scientific programmes. He did an excellent job and I've often wondered why he dropped out of TV. One such programme dealt, I think, with the International Geophysical Year. On the programme there were two photographs shown of a Swiss glacier. The much earlier photograph showed a more substantial glacier than then existed. The reduction is size was very clearly obvious. An even earlier reference was mentioned in the 1950s national press and I think quoted in some school text books. There had been a 1920/30s expediton, using a submarine, to the Artic and the late 1950s charts were showing considerably less ice than had been present in the 1920 and 30s. The indications of global warming seem to have been around for some time.AT Kunene (talk) 13:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC) This is not a reliable source, and therefore has no relevance here. Sorry. Whowhen (talk) 07:50, 4 January 2011 (UTC) The point is that the conservative meme that global warming is a recent invention is clearly false. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Yes, we know, and it's all neatly summarized in History of climate change science, and covered in greater detail in Spencer R. Weart's book The Discovery of Global Warming. However, while the expression of interest in this topic is appreciated, please keep in mind that talk pages are not a forum for general discussions of a given subject, and should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views. So, let's please limit talk page discussions to concrete suggestions for improving the article, Thanks--CurtisSwain (talk) 18:32, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Should skeptics be treated any differently than non-skeptics? We wouldn't want personal viewpoint to decide treatment of a topic. --Cflare (talk) 00:21, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Satellite temperature measurements article seems to go well beyond its title

The sea surface temperature article has been revamped due to improvements made in the numerical weather prediction article. When doing a web search, I ran across the wikipedia article regarding satellite temperature measurements, so I started incorporating some of the SST article information into it. After I noticed the article structure, I was initially confused. A cursory review of the article shows that its content goes well beyond its name. It looks strongly linked to this article, and even mentions information you would not expect to be involved in an article with its name. My question is: Should that article be renamed, something like Satellite temperature measurements (climate change), or should the information within the article be aligned with its current title? If so, the order of the article would need to be flipped, surface information/SST first (since that's where we all live and that information was first available via satellites, so it makes sense chronologically as well) with a decent amount of material eliminated since it goes beyond the scope of its title. Thoughts? Thegreatdr (talk) 22:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I think you should keep that discussion on the talk page of Satellite temperature measurements, and not place it here as well.--CurtisSwain (talk) 06:41, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I have. I posted it here as well because it appears to wharehouse global warming information on it (almost a content fork), so it appears relevant to this article. Right now, there is undue weight given to the global warming information within that article (which takes up nearly all its content). No further response will mean that the satellite temperature measurements article content will be refashioned to fit its current title around a week after the original talk page comment was made (the 16th), and the percentage of global warming information within it will be reduced in kind. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

minor typo

"Most of the increase in global average temperature since the mid-20th century is, with high probability,[D] atttributable to human-induced changes in greenhouse gas concentrations.[86]" change to attributable. 98.28.17.36 (talk) 02:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC) Dan

Done. GManNickG (talk) 04:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

nonexistance

where is the criticism about the nonexistance of global warming from many scientists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.69.205 (talk) 15:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Non-existent, of course. I'm not aware of any recent claim in the scientific literature that there is no warming trend. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

See FAQ#2, or Global warming controversy, which this article links to in several places.--CurtisSwain (talk) 18:21, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Surely the question is whether or not global warming is man-made or just part of a solar cycle. I think the main article should be more balanced with respect to this question.Sushisurprise (talk) 15:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

There's no need to balance. Since solar output has been more or less constant for the past 100 years (with the most recent data in fact suggesting a slight decrease over the last decade), recent warming cannot be attributed to the sun. See Solar constant#Variation or Global warming controversy#Solar variation for a more detailed explanation. Sailsbystars (talk) 15:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for settling that for me. I needed an expert's opinion.Sushisurprise (talk) 15:46, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed addition to Other Views section

After a discussion on Stephan Schulz' talk page, I have made some revisions to a previous edit of mine and moved it here for further debate. The current text of this section is as follows. The proposed addition to this section is underlined.

Most scientists accept that humans are contributing to observed climate change. National science academies have called on world leaders for policies to cut global emissions. However, some scientists and non-scientists question aspects of climate-change science.

Organizations such as the libertarian Competitive Enterprise Institute, conservative commentators, and some companies such as ExxonMobil have challenged IPCC climate change scenarios, funded scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus, and provided their own projections of the economic cost of stricter controls. The ARC has argued that placing stringent restrictions on industry in the name of reducing emissions would make the effects of climate change more difficult to cope with.

In the finance industry, Deutsche Bank has set up an institutional climate change investment division (DBCCA), which has commissioned and published research on the issues and debate surrounding global warming.

Environmental organizations and public figures have emphasized changes in the current climate and the risks they entail, while promoting adaptation to changes in infrastructural needs and emissions reductions. Some fossil fuel companies have scaled back their efforts in recent years, or called for policies to reduce global warming.

• Reference: Lockitch, Keith (April 2009). Climate Vulnerability and the Indispensable Value of Industrial Capitalism. Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights. Retrieved 11-01-08. "The dramatic degree to which industrial development under capitalism has reduced the risk of harm from severe climate events in the industrialized world is significantly under-appreciated in the climate debate. Consequently, so too is the degree to which green climate and energy policies would undermine the protection that industrial capitalism affords—by interfering with individual freedoms, distorting market forces, and impeding continued industrial development and economic growth. The effect of such policies would, ironically, be a worsening of overall vulnerability to climate."

The ARC is a 501(c)(3) non-profit think tank (as is the Competitive Enterprise Institute discussed in the preceding sentence), and an arm of the larger Ayn Rand Institute. Dr. Keith Lockitch, the author of the article in question, is a fellow at the ARC who has written numerous press releases and articles on the organization's behalf^[17]. Being as this paragraph in the article is about the stances of libertarian think tanks and free-enterprise institutes, I think this addition is both context-appropriate and notable. There are, however, as discussed on Stephan's page, some questions about which organization this article should be attributed to. The article was written by (as seen on Page 2), and is currently hosted on, the ARC's Web site, but was printed in Energy and Environment. Thoughts? »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 20:02, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the primary issue here is one of weight. Personally, I've never heard of the Ayn Rand Center or its parent org. Even if Lockitch is speaking for ARC, the question is are they notable enough to warrant inclusion?--CurtisSwain (talk) 01:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

They've been around since 1985, and they're basically the authority on Objectivist philosophy. Dr. Leonard Peikoff, the founder, was Rand's legal heir. I'd suggest looking into their Wikipedia article, to be sure, but I'd think they're weighty enough for mention. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 09:11, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Curtis, why should the ARC receive weight comparable to "Competitive Enterprise Institute, conservative commentators, and some companies such as ExxonMobil" combined? --CaC 174.52.224.148 (talk) 01:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, our handling of those organizations is highly questionable in itself. We have four citations for that sentence: Newsweek's "The Truth About Denial", Guardian's "Royal Society Tells Exxon Stop Funding Denial", ABC "Big Money Confusing Public", and MSNBC "Exxon Cuts Ties with Skeptics." The sentence is ostensibly talking about the positions (and they're not all the same) of these organizations, but we're showing it through the lens of Newsweek opinion columns shrieking about denialism? Simply put, if these organizations are notable enough to warrant mention, then can they not speak for themselves? I think it would be better if we used maybe a sentence each for their individual positions (the ARC being one), cited directly to them, then included notable responses/rebuttals offered to these positions as appropriate. It would certainly make for a more balanced perspective, and would make it harder for people to complain that skeptics aren't getting a fair shake. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 08:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

As a general rule, we do prefer secondary sources. And, to be honest, from a world-wide perspective, being the authority on Objectivist philosophy is about as notable in the context of global warming as being a rice packer in Shanghai. I also doubt that claim - from what I can tell, they are not an authority on Objectivism, but a free-market think-tank claiming to apply Objectivist principles. They have also commented on a large range of other topics - Creationism and ID, the war in the Middle East, Globalization, Health Care... - do we cite their opinion in these articles? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

It appears in this article, then, that we prefer secondary sources - except where we don't. The very next sentence in this section cites Deutsche Bank as a primary source three times. And in terms of weight, why does this one financial organization get as much mention as Competitive Enterprise Institute et al lumped together? Why are we presenting the perspectives of these aforementioned organizations only through vocally critical sources? Please read a bit more about ARI, Stephan. And also, as I noted on your talk page, the issue in this context which the proposed addition is addressing directly is the economic effects of environmental controls, which is what these organizations (CEI et al) are critical of. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 10:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The essential difference between science and other ways of acquiring knowledge is that scientists spend at least as much time trying to disprove their own ideas as they do trying to prove them. They know that their ideas will not stand up to replication if they are flawed. Taking Global Warming as an example, in the decades since the idea was generally accepted, if there had been a decline in ten year average temperatures, it would have been back to the old drawing board. But average temperatures continue to rise.

The ARI, in contrast, has already made up its mind. It is not interested in putting Objectivism to the test. Instead, it puts facts to the test, and if the facts contradict Objectivism, then it argues against the facts instead of modifying its beliefs to fit new data. It is not a good source for scientific opinion. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

With respect, MSNBC, Newsweek et al are not scientific organizations. I know this won't go anywhere, but the fact remains that some of them have previously demonstrated a willingness to blatantly manipulate their own footage in order to push an editorial perspective (MSNBC was harangued for its coverage of the Taxpayer March On Washington, where it carefully cropped and looped footage of a black man in the crowd with an AR-15 to disguise his race, then spoke of the danger of "white supremacists." But I digress.). And in my opinion, that makes them less than reliable sources for accurately conveying the positions of organizations they openly disagree with. Additionally, ARI is not arguing that global warming isn't real - what the article I provided is discussing is whether restricting production and the use of energy which allows us to, say, keep cool in summer and warm in winter, is really the best way to protect ourselves from climate fluctuations. It's not arguing science, it's arguing government policy. On further thought, this is probably a perspective more appropriate for Adaptation to global warming, but the issue of our blatant double-standard regarding which organizations are permitted to express their own positions must be addressed in this article. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 19:29, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's a matter of weight, but also mainstream vs fringe. There is no way ARC stacks up alongside ExxonMobil et al, but also, those mentioned are mentioned because notable secondary sources (Newsweek, The Guardian, ABC and MSNBC) have mentioned their stances (in relation to the mainstream, which is not "shrieking about denialism"). Deutsche Bank is also a huge organisation, and by setting a CC division, commissioning and publishing research, they are following another important mainstream trend (multinationals taking GW seriously in their business). Another right-wing US think tank muddying the waters is really neither news nor notable, especially since no secondary source (that we know of here) has even bothered to report on their (predictable) position. Not just weight, mainstream and noteworthy vs fringe and predictable. --Nigelj (talk) 17:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

For future reference, what is our policy for determining which organizations can speak for themselves as primary sources (Deutsche Bank), which organizations cannot (CEI), and on what grounds is this standard justified? »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 19:29, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Detusche Bank is not a primary source. Only science published in refereed journals is a primary source. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Rick - You're off base here. We're talking about inclusion in the Other views (as in non-scientific) subsection.--CurtisSwain (talk) 01:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, why is Deutsche Bank permitted to explain its own position, while the positions of organizations like CEI can only be relayed through secondary sources? Why can't all of these organizations speak for themselves? »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 21:15, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

  I think organizations can speak for themselves, and in that respect an editorial (say) in the Guardian would be authoritative for the Guardian itself. But the Guardian giving its opinion of what the science is should distinguished from any scientific opinion of what the science is. I think the real question here is why the opinion of the ARC is any more notable than the opinion of the CEI. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, and as I stated above, I think it would be appropriate for these separate organizations to each be given a sentence or so to explain their positions - weight-appropriate, of course, and with any appropriately notable rebuttals to those specific statements. I've been thinking that perhaps the ARC's expressed position is more relevant to the Adaptation to global warming article, since the organization has criticized policies responding to global warming, but hasn't disputed the science of global warming itself. The article basically argues that adaptation is a more feasible and less painful solution than mitigation, and is more likely to succeed. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 22:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Please, let's focus on how. The section "Other views" is summary section of Global warming controversy and Politics of global warming; you've also said that it would be appropriate on Adaptation to global warming. Summary section is a Wikipedia guideline, and this is a fact. For this reason, I believe we should focus our efforts on improving coverage on those subsidiary articles. I'm sure S0CO that your proposal would receive much less resistance at "Global warming controversy" or "Politics of global warming." And after you are finish, I'd be glad to see a proposal on how to improve the entire "Other views" section. --CaC 174.52.224.148 (talk) 23:07, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'm dropping my proposal to add the ARC source to the Global warming article for the time being - as I said, I'm thinking now that it's more relevant to a subarticle anyway. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 23:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

CurtisSwain: I was responding to SOCO just above my previous post, who seemed to think Detusche Bank was being quoted as a primary source. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

  I think we need to dispel the notion that every little group that dabbles in an inherently fringe position warrants "equal time", which might inflate a minority position in violation of proper WP:WEIGHT of the issue as a whole. If the ARC was saying something that the CEI didn't then it might warrant inclusion, but that would depend on the balance of how much coverage of detail was given to the majority view. If the scope of an article does not warrant coverage of such details, one voice might well represent multiple voices. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Just for clarification on terminology, I was under the impression that "primary source" meant something which was being referenced directly (such as a press release by an organization), while "secondary source" meant another organization had picked up on it and reported it (such as a newspaper article which makes reference to the press release). My stance was that every organization whose viewpoint was judged to be notable enough for inclusion ought to be permitted to speak for itself, instead of picking and choosing which to portray through intermediaries. Does "primary source" refer exclusively to scientific literature, as the term is used on this talk page? »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 05:20, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

The article primary source gives a good definition. In the case of global warming, a primary source is a published, refereed paper by a climate scientist. An article in a journal reporting what the scientists published is a secondary source. So is a book or textbook by an expert which summarizes the published literature. An encyclopedia article which summarizes what the secondary sources report is a tertiary source. Wikipedia usually uses reliable secondary sources, and is itself a tertiary source. Commentary is not a "source" at all -- except that commentary by Joe Smith is a primary source on what Joe Smith has written. It belongs in the "Joe Smith" article. When a subject such as global warming becomes so controversial that Wikipedia has a second article on the controversy, what Joe Smith says becomes a primary source for that article, and commentary by knowledgeable people on Joe Smith's views becomes a secondary source for that article. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:07, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

  More particularly, Primary source says: "Primary source is ... source material that is closest to the person, information, period, or idea being studied." (Emphasis added.) Also relevant here is WP:Identifying reliable sources ("Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources....") and WP:PRIMARY. The latter says:

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. [Emphasis added]

  In respect of scientific research the primary sources — those closest to the research — are those published by the researchers themselves. Whether a scientist's interpretation/opinion of the research (and this is not limited to the original researchers themselves) is reliable depends on other factors, such as publication in respected scientific journals (which implies exposure to editorial requirements and peer-review). The enduring issue in all of the climate change articles concerns the reliability of sources regarding, on one hand, the views of, say, the WSJ editorial board, the CEI, "John Smith", Heartland, and various random scientists — and here I say that the WSJ, etc., can speak for themselves — as distinct from science (or scientific research) itself. I would say that editorials in the WSJ are primary and presumably reliable and even authoritative for the WSJ's view of the science, but not of the science itself. Similarly, when the editors at Science invite a prominent and respected expert to comment on recent research, that is a secondary source, but much more reliable than, say, comments coming from Senator Inhofe's office or ExxonMobil's hired guns.

  So my answer to to SOCO is no, "primary source" does not necessarily refer exclusively to scientific literature, though that is the implication in regards of any scientific matter. Perhaps more importantly, the views of the ARC, though possibly of interest in an article on that organization, are not reliable concerning any scientific issue. And even in the political debate re AGW their views would probably notable only to the extent that they are a notable player in that debate. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Additional Source?

I recently had a discussion with a gent who thought volcanoes produce way more CO2 than humans could ever spew into the atmosphere. I told him he was dead wrong and HE produced the following source. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-do-volcanoes-affect-w The salient quote is "There is no doubt that volcanic eruptions add CO2 to the atmosphere, but compared to the quantity produced by human activities, their impact is virtually trivial: volcanic eruptions produce about 110 million tons of CO2 each year, whereas human activities contribute almost 10,000 times that quantity." TimL (talk) 07:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Um... good for you? Are you proposing that this source be added to the article somehow, and if so, could you maybe post your proposed revision for consideration? This isn't a general discussion forum. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 07:52, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

No, I was posting it for those who actively edit the article, which does not include myself. I will out it on my TODO list to see how it might be integrated into the article. Also I do not see how posting a source is 'general discussion'. TimL (talk) 08:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, we have this in the FAQ at the top of the page, linked to a New Scientist article which is a quite good overview over the many ways we can confirm where the CO2 comes from. We do write that humans emit 100 times more than volcanic activity, but that may be because our source (which I remember vaguely to be the USGS, although the link seems to have vanished) included all volcanism-related emissions, in particular deep sea vents. Or someone at SciAm got their decimal point mixed up ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I know this is probably an article that has every source imaginable (I mean that it is very visible, highly contentious (to some), (I'm not being sarcastic)). Sorry for not looking at that. TimL (talk) 09:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

No problem at all. One thing we (as in all of us ;-) should be carful about is to let this be an encyclopaedic article on global warming, not a blow-by-blow discussion of discredited arguments. We do discuss the relative contributions of different sources in Carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere#Sources_of_carbon_dioxide, though. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Explanation of Tony Sidaway's revert of an edit by Simplex1swrhs at 05:19, 20 January 2011

I've reverted this change, which at first sight seems to be a sensible normalization of language to make it consistent, because on examination the word "average" in the sentence refers to a different kind of mathematical entity from that referred to here as the mean. The use of different words here helps to cue the reader to that fact.

The entity referred to here as "global mean surface temperature difference" is the variable being plotted by year, but the quantity referred to as "the 1961–1990 average" is a baseline scalar constant which is subtracted from the global mean temperature to obtain the anomaly which is plotted. It is a mean-of-means, if you like, or rather a mean over the range 1961-1990 versus a mean over the range of each year. --TS 01:44, 21 January 2011 (UTC)