User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Template:Fix bunching  

US Gov editing

The US Army has stated that want to

Speaking to the general's character, current and former U.S. military officers who worked with Caldwell said he is an example of a modern Army officer who was trying to bring the Army's "strategic communications" into the 21st century, encouraging the units he commanded at Ft. Leavenworth, the Army's premier training facility, to use social media, blogging and Wikipedia as part of their efforts to shape their message.

Would you support such efforts by the US military? (Also see related)Smallman12q (talk) 03:25, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/24/petraeus-orders-probe-claim-army-official-wanted-manipulate-senators/#ixzz1GAFiw2bH

(talk page stalker)The allegations, if true, would not only be violations of our own rules (WP:NPOV in particular), but also of the Smith-Mundt Act, passed in 1948 to prevent the use of propaganda techniques against U.S. citizens by Federal agencies. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:40, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparently Smith-Mundt only covers the Executive Branch; my bad. --Orange Mike | Talk 04:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:NPOV and likely WP:COI! I wonder if we can identify one of these "army editors". NickCT (talk) 04:11, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. But I feel that we would have found one by now, considering the numbers of pagewatchers or relevant articles. We could search using WikiScanner though. Ronk01 talk 04:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah... Wikiscan em... Just glancing, I thought this guy was interesting. NickCT (talk) 04:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, not that interesting. Only occasionally edits. NickCT (talk) 04:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

He would fit the pattern if the edits were more frequent though. (Wikiscanner seems to be down) Ronk01 talk 04:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

This entire range is DoD. Interesting to browse through it. I wonder, does internet traffic from Afghanistan get routed through a US ISP? NickCT (talk) 04:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Note also: WP:VPM#US military propaganda? and WT:MILHIST. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs • Editor review) 15:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Its easy to over do it here. Would this outrage apply to the average soldier who edits military related articles following all the 5 Pillars? Just because its a military IP address doesnt mean its part of some grand conspiracy.Thelmadatter (talk) 21:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

@Thelmadatter - Certainly I agree. I imagine the vast majority of GI Joe's (or Jane's for that matter) contributing over military IPs are doing so in a constructive, neutral manner. It's just fun to search for the rare few that are part of some kind of psych OPs team... NickCT (talk) 22:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm surprised by how unconcerned most of the editors here are about this. I think it may have something to do with most our editors being Americans. Would the reaction be different if it were announced that the Armed Forces of China were about to launch an organised WP editing project? As a response to this, one thing to consider is creating a new wikiproject for the purpose of countering American government bias in military-related articles. Nanobear (talk) 23:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Such a project would be futile...though amusing.Smallman12q (talk) 01:30, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

? Why on earth do you assume I'm not concerned about this? --Orange Mike | Talk 03:37, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The US Army is part of the Executive Branch. Corvus cornix_talk 06:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, the US Army can do what it wants. But they're going to have to answer to the coca-cola company the Wikipedia COI guideline. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:13, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Does the WMF have some sort of "official" stance towards such editing?Smallman12q (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

At this wikipedia we have WP:Policies and Guidelines to help with new users and groups of users that sometimes come together on multiple accounts or IP addresses, basically I think the policy is to welcome them and help them to edit and contribute in a policy compliant manner to the benefit of the article content and to the Wikimedia Foundation aims and ambitions in general. Off2riorob (talk) 01:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Female editors on wikipedia low

I have overheard that the female editor population on wikipedia is just 13% and I am just wondering if this was true and if so any ideas on encouraging more women to edit here (more women editors would be nice and would benefit wikipedia). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

There's an article at the New York Times.Smallman12q (talk) 01:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I think the bottom line is that there is no way of knowing; the stats I've seen are those based on established editors (i.e. those who have registered accounts) who have self-identified as women. It may well be that some female editors would prefer not to be identified as such, because of the risk of unwanted attention, and thus some will retain a specifically gender-neutral position here. So it seems that we are talking about a "hidden population", which although I understand, is unsupported by any figures I've seen, and that is perhaps the problem. In the case of some fan edits to "pop-star" articles, it seems persuasive from their nature that they are female, but cannot be a representative, defensible sample. So, on balance, I don't think that the available evidence is reliable enough from which to be able to draw statistically valid conclusions. Maybe some sort of anonymous, off-wiki project might throw light on this, but so far, I don't see the case being made for such an effort, valuable though it might be. Make no mistake, my experience here tells me that there is little difference between male and female editors; both are capable of great things, and also failings. Rodhullandemu 01:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

There is at least one important difference between male and female editors. The male editors are male and the female editors are female. And there are significant differences between men and women. --FormerIP (talk) 01:41, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that I agree with that. One should never make assumptins where Wikipdians are concerned. Take Rod down below we assume he is male, but what about his remarkable emu? Nothing is ever straight forward on Wikipedia. Lady Catherine Rollbacker-de Burgh (the Late) (talk) 12:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you intended to say here, because it implies a cultural difference which may not be supported by any evidence. I could, if I liked, set up two accounts, one editing articles from a "male perspective" and the other from a "female perspective", but in either case, I could also use both accounts to edit from a gender-neutral perspective and I would challenge anyone to reliably and incontrovertibly distinguish my sex (not gender, that's a continuum, not a dichotomy) simply from the edits I make. I just don't think that it possible. Rodhullandemu 01:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Whether or not I am able to determine your sex (or gender) does not really answer the question of whether you have one, though. I imagine that you do. Are you trying to make an argument that gender imbalance does not matter on Wikipedia so long as it remains theoretically possible that there are more female editors than our best information tells us there are? --FormerIP (talk) 01:54, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Since I am a person, with both gender and sex, that doesn't address the question of whether it is discernible here; as it happens, it's obvious to anyone who cares to take a look, unless I have been lying about myself here for the last four years or so. Other editors are not so up front, and we should not read between the lines and try to see things that are not there. To meet your last argument: there's no need for any editor here to give out such personal information, and if they choose not to do so that it up to them. That, in itself, means that if female editors do not wish to make a point of that, it isn't up to others to require that they do so. Rodhullandemu 02:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so an editor's gender may not be discernible and no-one is obliged to disclose their gender. So...? --FormerIP (talk) 02:07, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

So studies that claim to establish gender-differences in editing Wikipedia are necessarily limited to (a) registered accounts and (b) those registered accounts that self-identify with a gender. That's in no way the full picture, and I, for one, do not regard it as a reliable sample for empirical purposes. Anecdotal, it may be, and perhaps even indicative, but as it stands, in no way authoritative. And that's the big mistake. Rodhullandemu 02:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that there are limitations, as there are on almost any occasion when statistics are considered. So, what we have is merely a very strong indication. Pedants may object and the Pope doesn't appear to have signed in triplicate. Theoretically, perhaps unregistered users are overwhelmingly female and perhaps there is a hidden majority of female editors who are too embarrassed to admit to their crime. But do we have any reason to make either of those assumptions? More to the point, since neither of those assumptions can be strictly excluded, does that give us an implacable ostrich-head licence? --FormerIP (talk) 02:28, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

In the absence of cogent evidence, we're stuck with what we have, and it would be dishonest to go outside that, in research terms. Theories are all very well, but unless there is empirical evidence to support them, they must remain as precisely that: Theories, unproven. That is outside any scientific method, and therefore objectively unacceptable, especially on Wikipedia, which principally relies on secondary sources. Anything else should be taken to Wikiversity until it is accepted by mainstream, peer-reviewed authorities, and then, and only then, is it worthy of inclusion here. That's not just me, it's policy. Rodhullandemu 02:38, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

You've got the logic exactly backwards. There is not an absence of cogent evidence. The cogent evidence we have is that the proportion of female WP editors compared to male appears to be low. This may be open to theoretical objections and such objections can probably never be removed. Ask yourself: do you seriously believe that the apparent gender imbalance on WP is illusory and is likely to disappear once unknown unknowns are taken into account, or are you merely holding this out as a theoretical objection? And are you seriously suggesting that we establish a peer-review process (presumably we will need to identify some academics specialising in Wikipedia studies who are willing to carry this out) before we can consider any statistics regarding the project? --FormerIP (talk) 02:48, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Years ago we used to say "There are no womens in the internet", and anyone self-identifying as female was most probably a Troll (Internet). There was nothing in the Internet that appealed to women. Wikipedia was founded about that time.

Now computers are more generalized, there are websites like facebook where women decide to register out of their own will (actually, there is social pressure to get everyone registered, male or female). Websites have content targeted to women or to little girls (flash games websites have categories for "girly" games, many times I see my niece playing them). Those little girls will grow up and become adult female computer users who might decide to edit wikipedia.

So, there are lots of women out there in the internet who could be editing wikipedia right now. The statistical data available right now is full of holes. So, I seriously believe that the percentage are probably wrong. No, I don't think that there are many women editing wikipedia, but there should be a lot more than what these stadistics imply. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:44, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Years ago, you guys were wrong. :) I've been on the internet for a long time, and I'm not a closeted male. FWIW (which is not really much, I know), I do know a couple of female editors on Wikipedia who edit under gender non-specific names who encourage the misperception that they are male to avoid mashers. I've run into a couple of those, so I understand the impulse; there have also been a few unpleasant episodes where my being female offered an easy target for vandals to lash onto it, but vandals will go for the easy targets regardless. I'm sure that most men on Wikipedia who've been targeted have been accused of being gay, as though that's some kind of crime. Of course, there's a ton of variation among women, just as among men, so there's probably not one solution if a balanced representation is desired. But I myself suspect that the aggressive disagreements in the back channels of Wikipedia may not be as comfortable for women in general as for men. I guess I'm persuaded by sociological theories that women are by and large more comfortable with cooperative modes of negotiation; interest-based rather than positional. Cultural factors probably push me even further in that direction. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:48, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Previous discussions here on this: [1][2] Siawase (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

So in other words this is going around in circles? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:16, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Very circular indeed. A lot of talk on this matter. Few practical solutions offered. No real action taken.... NickCT (talk) 16:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, this isn't really the right place for it anyway. There is a working group and mailing list to craft genuine proposals for the Foundation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:57, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, and haven't we had this conversation like several gazillion times within recent months? And I don't think it really matters. Most of the female editors I know on wikipedia edit articles as fair minded as I do and their gender really doesn't make a blind bit of difference.. There seems to be a stereotype that female editors will only be interested in stereotypical feminine topics. Some might, perhaps but the majority of the female editors I know edit articles no differently to male editors so their gender is irrelevant. Although I must say that in my experience female editors tend to be much neater and better organized than us brutes!...♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

My two cents is that affirmative action is not needed here. Im a woman and I find it unnecessary. Yeah, I avoid contentious pages as I dont like them, hell I even stay away from the Mexico City page though its atrocious because I dont want to spend all my time defending my edits. However, there are plenty of articles and opportunities to contribute to WP and avoid that unpleasantness. The focus should be on content generated, not who does it.Thelmadatter (talk) 20:38, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Very easy solution. Since there's no way for us to force women to edit, we need to control what we can control. Set up a bot to randomly indef block accounts of male editors till the ballance hits somewhere in the 45-55% zone female-male editors.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

@Thelmadatter - re "s is that affirmative action is not needed here. " - I used to take that position, but I've since reflected on the stunningly out-of-whack ratio of males to females. I mean 2 or 3 males for 1 female, might be OK. Even 4 to 1 wouldn't be so bad, but 9 to 1? That strikes me as a little excessive. NickCT (talk) 20:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The ideas that usually come up for improving things are in the general categories of: (1) cut the unpleasantness; and (2) make the interface easier to understand. Doing these things would seem to be a positive way to go anyway, regardless of whether they would have any significant effect on the male-female ratio - they would presumably bring in more of the right sort of editor, both female and male. And though the second issue depends quite a lot on Foundation investment, both of the two issues are things that we as a community can do a lot about, if we have the willpower (and the patience to out-argue the loud voices who see rudeness and institutional complexity as positive parts of the wiki experience...) --Kotniski (talk) 11:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

"...make the interface easier..." for women. Surely, that would entail a format requiring a female to complete three or four different processes at the same time, while simultaneously planning ahead for the tasks to done and reviewing thoses previously completed, while ensuring that any offspring are being suitably guided for their internet surfinging and reminding any male partner what their password is and how to navigate to their favourite site. I am not sure that such an interface can be produced by todays technology, or even effectively devised by male (linear) programmers. Even if it were, how would the disenfranchised gender be supposed to operate it? LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:47, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Who said "make it easier for women"? I said "make it easier". For everyone. --Kotniski (talk) 13:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe if we made the editing interface pink with ribbons, and small icons of My Little Pony? --Enric Naval (talk) 16:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@NickCT; the thing is that such figures are actually damn good compared to most online communities! To increase those figures is a wider problem than WP alone. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Glorious!

I've complained about some things here before, so I ought to give Wikipedia credit for putting up L. Ron Hubbard as today's featured article. No whitewash, no timidity, lots of things I never knew. Even major media used to be timid about publishing anything against Scientology, and to see so much of the truth laid out here so clearly, despite ArbCom-level controversies, is just glorious -- and a service to the public with substantial real financial value. All Wikipedians should be proud today. Wnt (talk) 09:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I know little about L. Ron Hubbard beyond randomly absorbing a few things over the years, but the article does seem to be informative and well-balanced. It's important to note that not only does the article have the characteristics you praise it for, "no whitewash, no timidity," but also it is not a hatchet job full of every random negative thing anyone could find.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"Ignore all rules"

Hello Jimbo. Posting on your talk page feels strangely intimidating; like writing a letter to the President, or something. Anyway, I left some comments at Wikipedia talk:Ignore all rules. As I know you feel strongly about this policy, I wanted to invite you, assuming you have the time, to respond. It's amazing how genuinely complex something so seemingly simple can be. I disussed IAR's role in helping Wikipedia to become the amazing work that it has, why it worked well at the time, and why I feel it is no longer viable in it's current form. You are quite obviously a busy man, and I'm sure you are regularly bombarded with requests, so I will certainly understand if you are unable to follow through with my request. But, as they say, "if you don't ask, the answer's always no." In any case, while I am here allow me to thank you for starting this absolutely amazing project. Regards. Joefromrandb (talk) 14:38, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I don't agree with you and in fact I think the points you raise just illustrate why we need to return to our roots a bit. If we have a culture in which people feel that they can't make good-faith edits to improve Wikipedia without first learning a huge ton of rules, on penalty of getting hollered at or threatened with a block, then we've moved in the wrong direction. WP:IAR is as much about how we should respond when we see someone doing something not-quite-perfect but with a good heart: our first responsibility is to remember that particularly newbies aren't required to learn every single one of our detailed rules before they pitch in to help us. So we should respond with kindness rather than throwing the rulebook at people. WP:IAR is not primarily for you or me; it's for them.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems you're not the only one who disagrees with me! But respectful disagreement is healthy, and the points you make are certainly worth noting. I appreciate you accomodating my request, as well as your feedback here. Regards. Joefromrandb (talk) 22:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Attention of taxation business declaration

It advises. The taxation business declaration time limit in your Japan is up to tomorrow. If the taxation business is not declared, it is a tax evasion. I have been advising many times for one year. --山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 16:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

And I have told you repeatedly that this has nothing to do with me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

And, I advised many times. In laws of Japan, you have the legal liability as long as you do not voluntarily declare the proof of facts to Japanese citizen and tax authorities in Japan. If the taxation business declaration time limit is passed, it is a tax evasion. --山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 04:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Monthly_donations/en

Well, it's better. But "2010" needs to be "2011". WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I still don't have a password for that wiki, so I'm not sure what to do next. Can you email Zack at the Foundation? He'll know what to do. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Profiles of operating corporations

Wikipedia:Profiles of operating corporations appears to be an attempt by a seemingly "new and inexperienced" user to equate corporations with living people a la our BLP policy. I have no legal background, so I don't know if his "fictitious person" angle is feasible or not. The problematic part for now is that he wants to add the {{POC}} template to active article talk pages as part of his "test", having already done so earleir today, and he was asked to remove them by an admin. - BilCat (talk) 18:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, the page is deleted now, so this may be a moot point, but I just wanted to say that BLP policy does apply to groups of people, indirectly, and companies are just groups of people. Now, having said that, how to apply the policy to companies is of course a very interesting and complex subject (as most useful subjects are), but the broad principles are clear. If you write, without a source, that Company X is guilty of criminal practices of some kind, then you are, by direct implication, accusing people at Company X of committing crimes. That's a BLP violation. Sourcing standards of BLPs apply here.

I have no opinion about what the page said, since I didn't read it. I don't see how the legal concept of a 'fictitious person' really says anything interesting beyond the obvious things that I just said. But I could perhaps be persuaded. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The essay wasn't just suggesting that corporations should be protected from allegations of 'criminal practices' (as you say, libel laws etc already apply here anyway), but attempting to extend policy to make them effectively immune to any criticism unless they were breaking laws. Somehow, I doubt that this would be in the spirit of Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

BLP policy is, and should be, much stricter than simply "avoid libel", though. I don't agree with shielding corporations (or anyone) from legitimate criticism, of course. But I do think that it is wise to look at articles about companies through a BLP lens.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If you want to have a look, its been userfyed here User:Herostratus_/Wikipedia:Profiles of operating corporations - Off2riorob (talk) 22:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, that seems over-broad; among other things it forbids discussion of reputation issues unless the company has acknowledged it or it has been in court over it. On the other hand, with some modification I think it could be fixed up to be quite a nice and thoughtful bit of guidance.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like if Herostratus tweaks it up a bit it could make a useful essay/ helpful guidance article. Off2riorob (talk) 22:41, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't really see any particular logic to applying special protection to corporations as 'groups of persons' that one wouldn't apply to any other such group (a political party? a religious organisation? ...). If there is to be such a policy, we need to make clear why we think it is necessary and/or desirable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's my thinking. The overall principles apply equally to all types of articles on organizations. However, different types of organizations face different types of problems. Political parties, religious organizations, and businesses are typically beaten up for different types of things. So I can at least envision a useful overall page for all types of organizations, but also useful pages giving thoughtful advice on specific issues relevant primarily to specific kinds of organizations.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the earlier comment they are basically covered already through BLP, I was thinking that the essay would make a good help page for company officials wanting guidance and pointing in the right direction. Off2riorob (talk) 22:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I asked to have it userfied to User:Herostratus_/Wikipedia:Profiles of operating corporations because I thought it was interesting and wanted to take a closer look at it. I don't agree with it in essence, and I think there might be legitimate slippery-slope issues (slippery-slope is overcited but might apply here). It also has some issues re powerful entities and our commitment to providing accurate information without fear or favor. And probably other problems. But it's not idiocy and he has an interesting argument. But if someone who is more favorable to the point wants to take it off my hands and develop it, please by all means do so, I don't really want it. Herostratus (talk) 00:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I've long expected this other shoe to drop for some time - consider McLibel and SLAPP suits, for example. And yet, as those examples show, this is not without resistance. And corporations indeed are not the only groups of living persons, or the only other group with laws to crack down on critics. For example, the food libel laws under which Oprah Winfrey was sued for saying that eating mad cow beef makes her nervous. So I suppose that fanatics will eventually delete any coverage of health claims against foodstuffs, as a natural extension of BLP. Negative coverage of the Church of Scientology or the Ku Klux Klan (even, I suppose, in ancient history) naturally would be ruled right out. And for moral completeness, I suppose that coverage of the Tian'anmen Square Riots should be trimmed to match official coverage, discounting unsubstantiated fringe allegations from foreign detractors against the living people of the Chinese Army. Perhaps the PRC government could assist us in keeping the article neutral. In the end, any topic involves living persons, if only as the source of your knowledge, so every article becomes BLP. But that isn't the Wikipedia I support. Wnt (talk) 00:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

All topics on Wikipedia should be compliant with the core content policies. If BLP is extended to apply to any conceivable article that could involve living people then it loses much of its power. In addition to already mentioned businesses, political parties, and religious organizations, living people are also involved in theatrical and musical productions, nations and municipalities, ethnicities and sexual orientations, philosophic and scientific endeavors, and nearly every topic we write about. All of these should follow the same standards as Wikipedia articles that don't directly involve living people. Otherwise we might as well do away with the BLP policy and just make its provisions applicable to all Wikipedia articles.   Will Beback  talk  02:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

You both make good points to which I am basically amenable. I have also been expecting this for some time. I just want to reiterate: I'm not in favor of the arguments on the page (nor necessarily against either - I haven't done more than quickly scan it) and I do not want my asking it to be userfied to my space to be taken as indication that I support the idea. I have enough freaken problems without being further identified as the guy who wants to apply BLP to corporations. I'm not in favor of the idea - what I am in favor of is interesting issues cogently presented for fertile discussion. Which this appears to be. And if someone would take it off my hands that would be extremely OK with me. Because I am not going to develop it. Herostratus (talk) 02:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Given the controversy this has caused and the fact that it was written by a blocked editor, and judging by the reactions here, I'd suggest that it might be best just to delete it, and leave the issue for a more considered approach with a clean slate. The issues raised may be relevant, but the essay is clearly no solution. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

If Herostratus has had it userfied and doesn't want it he should request deletion. Off2riorob (talk) 02:57, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh very well. I have enough on my plate. I think its worth discussing - if, perhaps, only that a solid logical, moral, and political framework to refute it may be crafted. But since I don't have the time or interest now for this, I've requested its deletion. Herostratus (talk) 04:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Moved from Passionless talkpage

Hi, I emailed you a few days ago, but so far you have not replied which is why I am now posting a message here while I would have prefered to keep this private as the claims of Battlefielding will continue. Anways, you took the time to take a look at the case against me at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Passionless, I've replied to your statement at the AE, at the AE, and I am still interested in how you feel now that you have read my reply which shows the links between the source and everything I wrote in the criticism section. I do not mean this as a threat, but I feel what has been done to me by HJ Mitchell is well described at Wikipedia:The motivation of a vandal#Former Wikipedians - "Part of this problem seems to be coming from treating in various conflicts experienced Wikipedians the same way as random trolls or vandals are treated. For instance, it is recommended not to talk too much to/about a troll as this "feeds" them. Differently, refusal to talk with contributors that have been initially fair may turn a Wikipedia friend into a Wikipedia enemy, especially when socially sensitive (for instance, religious, national independence, political or similar) topics are involved." While I admitted several times my first edit to the adoption page was flipping from one POV to the other, I've never done that before or will again, it was just a poor regretable moment of "how dare you write something so POV, I'll show you". Other than that I only meant to reduce POV/OR and show other's opinions on the adoption of iraqi children by foreigners, I do not feel that I should be treated like a troll. HJ Mitchell blocked me for "edit warring, POV pushing, using articles as a coat rack" but as I described in the ANI I brought against him for abuse of admin tools, these reasons are either false or misrepresented. The ANI seems to have irritated him and a few other editors and led to User:ברוקולי starting a case against me at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Passionless, asking that I be banned from israeli-palestine articles under WP:ARBPIA even though that topic ban is completely unrelated to the diffs he listed in the case. Rather than joining the ongoing discussion like many editors, admins, and you and I had, HJ Mitchell took unilateral action to block me indefinitely with the claim that I am "obviously incapable of editing in a collaborative editing environment or in compliance with core policies like NPOV and BLP" but this goes against my history of editing on Wikipedia, where I have taken part in many long discussions with much civility and collaboration with other editors. Some editors however are fortunately supporting me, or at least against the actions HJ Mitchell took against me, as can be seen here, where they show that I never did edit war-contrary to what HJ Mitchell claimed I had. And yes I do have two previous recent blocks, both were for 'breaking sanctions' on me, but both blocks were found to be incorrect/inappropriate/a misunderstanding by the blockers and each undid their block.

Sorry for the long message, but can you please reply to both my reply at the AE and both blocks in general that Mitchell placed on me.

Thanks, Passionless -Talk 01:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)-still not a troll