Talk:Kurt Cobain

Untitled

This article is ridiculously long and full of trivial crap like what his first concert was, the fact he "travelled to Olympia to go to concerts", 5 paragraphs about his "artistic intentions" (which all reads like opinion and POV BS, even with the Grohl and Love quotes). Can someone make this article more encyclopedic and less fanboy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.105.109 (talk) 02:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC) It should definitley be trimmed down a bit, and there should definitley be more about his life before the band and childhood. It really helps to illustrate the influence for all of his music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zman19 (talk • contribs) 03:45, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain Is Not Homosexual!!!!!

Its true that he said he was bisexual until he married Courtney Love until 1992 but he was never homosexual.When he was in High School a friend he met was homosexual he didnt know at first but he noticed that other students looked at him wierd in the hallways since he started hanging out with his new friend and he watch him get picked on a lot he would protect him. One night his friend made a move on him and he was shocked and pushed him away.The days afterwards he wouldn't talk to him after that since it was just plain akward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.243.116.189 (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Sure, Kurt "wasn't" homosexual... so what? 190.47.101.146 (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Nobody said he was homosexual. And he never said he actually was bisexual, he said he could be bisexual. Asarelah (talk) 01:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

You're right, he wasn't homosexual, he was bisexual - MrGuy

You don't know that he was bisexual. He contradicted himself and lied a lot. He said that he COULD be bisexual, and liked to lead people on. He french kissed Chris on stage to annoy homophobes and he definitely liked the idea of gayness or bisexuality as some kind of form of rebellion. But you can't say that "he was bisexual" because there is no proof of that. Wikipedia should just post his quotes and let the reader decide for themselves.

That Cobain "liked the idea of gayness or bisexuality as some kind of form of rebellion" may be true but understates the point, I think. He wasn't just taking a "hip" stance; he was actively on the side of gays, standing up against prejudice. Anyone who hates gays should hate him, too, which I think was his larger point. --CAVincent (talk) 15:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Cobain said that he "began to become really proud of being gay even though he wasn't"; I'm not 100% on when this was but I'm sure that it was around about the time he was following The Melvins and in the very early days of Nirvana --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 13:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

pictures

the ones here are terrible. --69.125.2.186 (talk) 22:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC) I agree, the one that is currently there is horrible, They had a better one but now its been replaced by the crappy one. Megabar09 (talk) 00:09, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

We have no choice due to copyright violations. Sir Richardson (talk) 13:00, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

So were did that one come from? I was wondering, if someone had a Nirvana album or poster, and if their was as picture of Kurt on it, would there be any copy right if they took a picture of it with a camera and then uploaded it on here?. UnivoxDude15 (talk) 22:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe that such a picture would be considered a derivative work, but that original copyright holder would still retain their rights to the original image. So to use it here, you'd now need the permission of both, which would not improve on the situation of just needing the original person's permission. Tarc (talk) 23:58, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Genre

Im adding Punk Rock to his Genre's since he was in a Punk band called Fecal Matter and was a Punk. 81.96.254.143 (talk) 21:32, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. While Nirvana should be regarded as a grunge band, Cobain himself was a punk musician, before the grunge genre was specifically defined. Punk should be included in the genre's of his infobox, in the same way hardcore punk is included in Dave Grohl's for his work in Scream. Sir Richardson (talk) 21:58, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to define some of these definitions, sub genres of rock and music. Metal rock glam rock could be hair metal. In Cobain's case both grunge & punk rock fits, but Nirvana itself is grunge!

No not Nirvana itself but who removed it? sombody removed Punk from this section? he was in the Punk Rock band Fecal Matter and they were Punk Rock. Megabar09 (talk) 14:19, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, somebody removed punk rock! Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Nirvana had some hardcore punk songs. And Kurt Cobain is considered punk my the punk "community". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.91.63 (talk) 19:34, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

If songs like Territorial Pissings aren't punk songs then what is? Cobain himself even called his second album "Punk rock gold". I forgot where I read or heard that quote, but I'm sure you can find it if you look. If not ask me and I'll find it for you. My email is fukshtpss@gmail.com 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

"There is no reliable source categorically considering Kurt Cobain with Nirvana to be a punk rock band"..What? But Cobain wasn't only in Nirvana. This is the Kurt Cobain article, not the Nirvana one. I'm adding punk rock back. And I'm going to search for a source too.--Revilal90 (talk) 01:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

In an interview, Kurt said they were more of a "Sub-Pop sound". Wath this video. http://www.youtube.com/embed/7WRjnZwL658 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Childress293133

• I don't think that would qualify as a reliable source though. A genre being red-linked is always a good clue that it isn't a real one too. --John (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Religion

Kurt Cobain wanted to convert to Catholicism (a process that involves commitment and time. Time was something he had little of while in Nirvana) according to his wife, Courtney Love, who publicly stated that he wanted to become Catholic before reading his suicide note. I did not see any mention of this in this article, though it does mention many other religious interests that I had never observed said of Kurt while he was alive. Courtney was Buddhist. I also cannot find a reference siting her pre-suicide note ramble. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.237.102.30 (talk) 10:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Source? I think he just had some ideas from Buddhism, but I am not sure if he is. 189.89.156.99 (talk) 17:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

His Alias

Kurdt Cobain? Surely that is a mistake right?96.246.52.215 (talk) 14:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

No he called himself that sometimes :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.34.180 (talk) 16:40, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

wasn't it Kurdt Kobain? --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 13:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I've seen it with the two K's. It is even printed like that on the back of at least one album. Although he may have used Kurdt Cobain as well. 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

He used the Kurdt Cobain version on the Bleach album. I think Chad Channing and Krist Novoselic may have done a different spelling of their names too. (Childress293133 (talk) 00:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC))

On Kurt and Courtney, they went to a club or bar and found a place that he signed. It said Curt Cobain, but I'm not 100% sure that it WAS him. (Childress293133 (talk) 00:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC))

Painter listed under occupation?

He did the artwork for the Incesticide cover, and he wanted to be a painter. According to Charles R. Cross, he always thought he'd be a famous painter.

Should we add painter or artist or something along those lines to his occupations? ISeriouslyNeedALife (talk) 20:41, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

No. --CAVincent (talk) 05:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

There should be more of a reasoning against this than just "No". While he never for example had his paintings displayed in an art gallery, he is by any standard considered to have been a visual artist by many reliable sources. His role in Nirvana's music videos and album artwork can be held accountable for this. Personally, I don't think it would be particularly objectionable for "artist" to be listed as an occupation in the article's infobox. Sir Richardson (talk) 17:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that it should be listed as one of his occupations, If you did that you would probably need to put "heroin" in there also :) But joking aside, I think that it was more of a passtime for Cobain than an actual occupation; I think, he was constantly looking for ways in which he could fully express himself and used painting and sculpture as a way to acheive this in ways in which music couldn't. That's just my thoughts. --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 13:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, your occupation is your career, and given that I doubt he even earned money from any painting then I don't think it counts as an occupation. Real N0 1 (talk) 16:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

You could say painting was more of a vocation for him than an occupation. It was, without a doubt, Important to him and it wasn't done purely for money. --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 09:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Punk Rock

I don't see why punk rock keeps getting taken off of his genres. Can someone explain their side of this? ISeriouslyNeedALife (talk) 21:00, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

• Your statement here is literally the very first time I have ever heard Cobain described as punk rock. His genre was grunge. If you can find a source to support this, then that would prevent it from being removed. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 05:52, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
• He definately is a punk rock because in interviews considers him self to be a punk rocker and in the allmusic.com profile it says nirvana popularized punk, post-punk, and indie rock. plus he always admired punk in his quotes http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:hifexqr5ld6e174.54.122.131 15 August 2010
• He was 100% punk rock in philosophy if not music. His motto was, at least at one point; "Punk rock is freedom" --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 13:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
• kurt cobain said himself that it was punk rock, the image of true punk rock has just been distorted so much that people think its grunge! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.187.60 (talk) 02:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

> honestly his genre was considered grundge even though he didnt like to be labeled, grundge was best known for a sad kinda dark vibe filled with lyrics unknown to some eyes, he wasnt punk rock at all he just came from it and brought a new genre of music to the world - Gio Jacobs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.251.160 (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the above; that he was deffinatly grunge and the inclusion of punk rock into his genres is probably not appropriate, however, I do think that it should get a mention somewhere in the article that he was heavily influenced by punk rock, so that stuff should stay. --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 13:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Grunge was a term the media came up with, punk rock absolutely influenced Nirvana.--72.24.207.77 (talk) 08:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

>I agree Punk Rock should definitely be included. Even if you don't think any Nirvana songs are close to being Punk, Fecal Matter was Punk so it should be mentioned. Nirvana wasn't the only thing Kurt was ever a part of. Kurt himself constantly mentioned Punk in interviews and refereed to his own music as Punk. He accepted the term Grunge but rarley ever refereed to himself as such. Borinquen252 (talk) 22:21, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Influences

Kurt Cobain was hugely influenced by The Beatles especially John Lennon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jongudni (talk • contribs) 20:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain also played the drums. It may not say that on this page but it is a fact that he played the drums. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.208.188 (talk) 07:14, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't the drums his prefered instrument originally (i.e. When he was a kid) before he had a guitar? I may be wrong I'm just asking; I'm sure I read that somewhere before --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 13:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

He also played bass on the Sappy-song, as well on many of his early demos. bit.ly/bs3OgX --User:Marnches 22:38, 18 November 2010.

book Kurt Cobain by Christopher Sandford states that:

the book "Kurt Cobain" by Christopher Sandford states that Kurt was born at Grays Harbor Community hospital in Hoquiam Washington not Aberdeen. 108.1.241.94 (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)AJK

It also says that he was full blooded irish on his father's side108.1.241.94 (talk) 05:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

is noone going to take these into consideration at all? 108.1.241.94 (talk) 03:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

If one source says one thing and all the rest say another, we generally go with the "many" side. Tarc (talk) 11:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

From what little i've read of this book it shouldn't be considered a reliable source Jack Endino a producer of Nirvana's early work has called it "pure fiction". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.73.17 (talk) 03:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

the book is not fiction its biography and the author did all his own research and interviewed members of the cobain family —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.1.241.94 (talk) 06:02, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

It's officialy a biography, but many books about Cobain's life have been so full of discrepancies that they are quite unreliable. Cobain himself used to tell a lot of lies to make his life seem either more exciting or more challenging (see the "guns in the river" story) he even said that himself. and whats to say people close to him knew the truth or didn't gloss over a lot of the facts to make it seem like Cobain was more presentable, he was a Heroin addict after all.--Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 09:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

fuck the beatles!! he was actually more influenced by punk rock bands in his time and the ones he would talk to like REM and The Melvins

wrong section? lol plus saying "fuck the beatles" then going on to praise any kind of rock band is a bit of an oxymoron; most of the newer guitar bands (ie 80s-2000s) can be traced back to influence by the Beatles. Listen to "Helter Skelter" you'll get the idea. --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 09:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

There IS no Grays Harbor Community Hospital in Hoquiam, Washington: The hospital of that name is (only) in Aberdeen, Washington: http://www.ghchwa.org/index.php?page=about-us (See also http://www.ghchwa.org/index.php?page=contact-us). That is always where it has been (and btw, "Community" is a non-optional part of its name; it is not "Grays Harbor Hospital"). ThunkingOutLoud (talk) 05:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Jayeffnz, 13 August 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} In the section titled 'Nirvana', a sentence in the second-last paragraph needs editing to correct a grammar issue. Sentence reads: He began to harbour resentments for people claiming to be fans of the band, yet refused to acknowledge, or misinterpreted, the band's social and political views. Correction should be: He began to harbour resentments for people claiming to be fans of the band yet refusing to acknowledge, or misinterpreting, the band's social and political views. or: He began to harbour resentments for people who claimed to be fans of the band yet refused to acknowledge, or misinterpreted, the band's social and political views.

Jayeffnz (talk) 01:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 01:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain was also punk rock, STOP REMOVING IT

Seriously, what is up? Stop removing the punk rock tag from his genre section. He considered himself as punk rock too, even. --User:Marnches 19. November, 2010. —Preceding undated comment added 11:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC).

Ancestry

Cobain isn't Scottish, Irish or German, it's ENGLISH Anglo-saxon originating from Kent, is it not cool enough to be mainly or English descent, its obvious Kurt was, millions of Americans with English ancestry deny it, btw im not being Anti-American (I love americans their our closets allies, along with the rest of the union countries), I'm prmoting Americans point of view of the possibility of being of English descent, and the ones that do they should respect it and not override it, peace...Davido488 (talk) 17:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The name comes from a combination of the Old Norse Kobbi meaning "large" and the Gaelic Bain meaning "a fair person" --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 13:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

No its an old English name for someone who lived in Cobham, surrey, kent thankyou, it's English not Scottish references http://cobainsurname.com/history/family_crest_name_history.html, http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=cobain+.86.186.3.245 (talk) 00:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

While I tend to take these surname/family crest websites with a pinch of salt (most make no mention of my last name, Connelly, originating from O'Connell and gives my family a crest, which I know to be made up as I have seen 3 or 4 family crests for my name from these sites.) I am enclined to believe you. I am not 100% sure about it but I had just always thought the name came from "Kobbi" and "Bain". I managed to find a reference for this after a bit of searching. http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Cobain, Your explanation sounds to be a bit more plausable though. --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 10:45, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I have an edit request too. It says, "Dave Grohl stated Cobain believed "Music comes first, lyrics come second"". I'm not even sure that is a Grohl quote. It's Kurt himself who said that, and that isn't even the exact quote. Nirvana were asked in an interview which comes first, music or lyrics, and COBAIN said, "Music is number 1" and held up one finger. I even have the interview on my computer. 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Category: People Who Attempted Suicide

I recently saw that the category "People Who Attempted Suicide" was removed from Kurt's categories. I believe it would make sense to keep it, considering he had attempted (without success) suicide in the past, such as in Rome with the pills and such. Does anyone agree? ISeriouslyNeedALife (talk) 02:56, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I saw that too and thought of the Rome incident, yea. The descriptino at the top of the cat does say "This category is for people (living or dead) who attempted suicide but did not succeed for whatever reasons. For those who succeeded, see Category:Suicides" so it seems it was meant as an either/or categorization. Tarc (talk) 03:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

People frequently remove categories for no valid reason. The Rome incident was a suicide attempt according to Love and Cross. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.71.19 (talk) 23:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I didn't know the guy; but I would say that in his state (i.e. drugged up to the eyeballs and slightly insane) he would have been looking for some attention in Rome. Also, I wouldn't really take Cross' opinion into account when discussing Cobain; He's only a biographer and never spoke to Cobain face-to-face. Likewise, my opinion I suppose. --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 09:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone have his journal? I read it and I'm pretty sure he talked about a silly failed attempt in that, where he lays on some train tracks and waits for a train, but it never comes so he gives up. I am pretty sure I read that in his journals. Either way though I prefer the article not to dwell TOO much on the suicide thing, but whatever. 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.78.44 (talk) 00:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I did buy a copy of his journals; but inside it says something like "Don't read this and judge me when I'm gone" so I've never read them --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 09:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

music stuff

why their no mention of his work with the alternatave band nevada  ?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brendan Whittington-Jones (talk • contribs) 12:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, is it trivial? --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:03, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Homophobic Bullies?

This article states that "homophobic" kids bullied him at school because he hung out with a gay student. I don't doubt that he was bullied, and I don't doubt the reasons, but it is very speculative to call the students homophobic. Calling them homophobic assumes that we have in depth knowledge and understanding of the psychology and/or mental processes/ and world views of these students. We don't even know their names. I am not saying they (the students who bullied him) were or were not homophobic, but it is not Wikipedia's job to label people homophobic. That is all. 128.223.56.88 (talk) 18:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Gay bashing is a pretty clear indication of homophobia. I would say by definition bullies who specifically target gay people would be properly termed "homophobic bullies." This kind of argument is often made by people who are against gay rights because they don't like being called homophobic. They insist that they are not afraid of gay people and beat them up. Rifter0x0000 (talk) 05:59, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Rolling Stone link update

Hi, I was looking at the links in the Notes section and found an updated location for a reference that was marked as a dead link. As I've never edited a Wikipedia page, I decided I probably shouldn't make my first edit under the influence of Ambien.  ;)

So in case someone wants to fix it...

Note #101
rollingstone.com, "Cobain Unseen": Rare Photos, Artwork and Journal Entries
Old link: http://www.rollingstone.com/photos/gallery/23454963/cobain_unseen_rare_photos_artw/photo/17
New link: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/photos/8549/48642

Pisceschickus (talk) 10:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:

• http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Blhud6j6h71q0

--CactusBot (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2011 (UTC)  Done--Cactus26 (talk) 11:06, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Barbieskull, 22 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Wendy Fradenburg is also of Dutch descent. She is from the Fradenburg/Vredenburg family which originated in Utrecht Holland, from Van Vredenburch (from what I understand means "from Peace Castle"), Dutch nobility. Barbieskull (talk) 03:52, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Skier Dude (talk) 05:54, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Loltrolling, 9 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Kurt Cobain was a relatively unknown scat porn adult film star before becoming a celebrity rock star. Loltrolling (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —GƒoleyFour— 02:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Nirvana creation date

In the article for Nirvana it says the band was created in 1987, but on the page for Kurt Cobain it says the band was created in 1985.

Once again, punk rock edit-warring

Can we get some definitive input and end this stupid debate once and for all? IMO, being in a "punk" band with a few friends for a few months does not qualify Cobain's genre to have "punk rock" listed there as well. This is a perennial thing that gets reverted, here and at other related articles, but there's a very persistent new editor who has been at it for weeks, genre-warring on this and many other pages judging by the edit history. Tarc (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact that the band themselves called themselves a Punk Rock band is enough for them to be listed as Punk rock here. Punk Rock is what they considered themselves. Grunge and Alternative Rock is what the media lablled them. All three probably are correct, but I would certainly go with Punk Rock, as that is what Kurt Cobain actually said on many recorded occasions as what type of music Nirvana actually were.mjgm84 (talk)

Tarc, I totally agree with you. The punk rock genre does not belong and should be stopped already. I too think it's been going on too long. Did you notify the editor of this discussion? If not, please do so they can respond. If it continues I am of the mindset to ask for administrator help to make it stop. Enough editors have reverted this to make it unacceptable to keep adding it back in. Thanks, --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain was a punk rocker. He described himself as a punk rocker. And anyway, Grunge wasn't like a genre itself. It was just a style developed in Seattle during the early 90's. Each band had other influences: Alice in Chains was more heavy metal style, Soundgarden was very close to Alternative Rock and Nirvana was close to punk. Nirvana have a lot of obvious punk songs, like Breed and Territorial Pissings. Nirvana was a group made of 3 punk rockers! Krist and Dave were part of punk rock bands too. And the media label is often incorrect. (example: people who think AC/DC is heavy metal or Avril Lavigne as punk..) Also, why isn't Punknews a reliable source? --Revilal90 (talk) 08:04, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Close to punk isn't actually punk. All of this rests on the existence of Fecal Matter, a 3-month old garage band. Tarc (talk) 13:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

You people don't think Nirvana is punk because of the "grunge" label. They were a punk rock band, with the Seattle style in their music. --Revilal90 (talk) 17:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)