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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 137.43.105.17 (talk) at 23:21, 22 April 2011 (→‎Use of given names: ::::Not just Iceland (see Viswanathan Anand), though if you replace “surname” with “last name” that might be right. Anyway, there might be exceptions for particular indivi). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:MOS/R

WikiProject iconManual of Style
WikiProject iconThis page falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style articles
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This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate.
Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing.
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For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

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See also
Wikipedia talk:Writing better articles
Wikipedia talk:Article titles
Wikipedia talk:Quotations
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

Compromise on WP:REFPUNC?

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (footnotes)#Compromise on WP:REFPUNC? -- Jeandré, 2011-03-21t12:46z

Capitalization and use of full stops in personal names

There is currently a move request at Talk:KABA.chan where WP:ALLCAPS and WP:MOSTM are being cited as reasons as to why the title of the page must be changed to "Kabachan".

As far as I am aware, WP:TM would not apply to this individual's name as it is not a trademark, it is merely the name he uses in his work as an entertainer, and WP:MOSCAPS has the heading at Mixed or non-capitalization that states that individuals can have their given names fully non-capitalized (as is the case at k.d. lang). Can this also cover names that are written entirely in capital letters or partially in capital letters?

And for whatever reason, the move is to a title that lacks the period/full stop. As far as I am aware, this is not forbidden, considering there are Anglophone entertainers (will.i.am, apl.de.ap) that utilize this in their names and we have not moved their pages to other titles for it. However, it seems that in the move discussion I linked to earlier, this is considered a logical non sequitur or an OTHERSTUFF argument.

Is the name "KABA.chan" not a suitable article title on the English Wikipedia? Because as far as I can tell from the various manuals of style it is not expressly forbidden.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:21, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Our article titles are not "names"; they should be what other people, independent of the subject and of his publicity department, call the subject, so that our readers will know what article they are reading. Please consult independent reliable sources in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, these criteria do not apply to subjects that do not normally appear in reliable English language sources. This is not an issue of his common name. It is the issue of how to properly format the individual's name in English typography for the purposes of titling the article on him on the English Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:33, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A quick google search shows that English language sources are mixed in how they present the subject's name... For example, Imbd presents it as "Kaba.Chan", while Anime News Network presents it as "Kaba-chan". That said, very few use the all caps "KABA" Blueboar (talk) 18:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Which is done, in English, by seeing if there is a consensus among the sources - and if not, using standard typography. If he didn't appear in reliable English sources at all, there would be a question of notability; but he does appear in sources which are at least marginally reliable, like the IMDB hit on the first page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:45, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Neither IMDb nor Anime News Network are really considered reliable sources. IMDb will ignore any English language spelling the subject uses (examples: Showtaro Morikubo is Shotaro Morikubo, Shoko Nakagawa is Shôko Nakagawa).
Anyway, I have no problems with not having "KABA" in the article title. However, I do not think that there is anything in the manual of style that forbids the article from being located at "Kaba.chan", which, barring any of the English language websites Google is pulling up, is still the closest approximation of his stage name (KABA.ちゃん) in the English language.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:56, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Pmanderson, the determination of the notability of a subject is not limited to his or her coverage in English language sources. If someone is notable within any language sphere, he or she can have a biography on the English Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed; I said raise, not determine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, you are still excluding the coverage he has received in his native language to determine notability, but this is neither here nor there. Is "KABA.chan" an unsuitable article title merely because of the use of capital letters? And if so, would "Kaba.chan" be a suitable alternative over "Kabachan" for approximating the subject's Japanese language name that uses English typography?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am. I'm not sure how to break it to you, but we're not written in Japanese; the Japanese Wikipedia is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:56, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Language is not an issue when it comes to notability so I do not know why you are bringing it up any further. So can we stop going off on this tangent and discuss whether or not the stylization and capitalization of the name of this particular individual (and others who may or may not have similar names) is allowed under the manual of style?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:12, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But language is a key factor is titling our articles. We do it in English, based on English sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Simply English sources (easy to come by) and not reliable English sources (rare if not non-existant)?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:30, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The key to article titles is the principal of recognizably. WP:Article titles tells us: Titles are often proper nouns, such as the name of the person, place or thing that is the subject of the article. Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This assumes, of course, that we are able to determine the name that is most frequently used. Sometimes we can't.
I think this is one of those "we can't" situations. The best sources in this case will be English language media and industry sources. Unfortunately, these seem to be mixed in their usage (freely using KABA.chan, Kaba.Chan, Kaba.chan, Kaba-chan, and several other variations.) This means that we are not really able to determine a "most common" name. When that happens we look to the other principals, with the ultimate fall back being to rely on "consensus". Blueboar (talk) 00:30, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That reminds me of something... In any event, 1) if there are no reliable secondary sources in English using Kabachan, neither should we, and 2) if a sizeable fraction of the reliable secondary sources in English (and if they are really so few of them, even one of them might count as a sizeable fraction) use KABA.chan, then I'd consider it one of the acceptable titles, and leave it alone per WP:TITLECHANGES (second sentence of second paragraph). ― A. di M.​plé​dréachtaí 09:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ordinarily, I'd choose standard English over any individual's whims, but A. di M. has a point. This could be more of a language issue than some-celebrity-thinks-he/she-is-being-cute issue. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:58, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would bring up WP:MOS-JA, but it does not really cover stylizations of names, but rather what spelling should be used (it is not ambiguous as to how "KABA.ちゃん" is to be romanicized, unlike some other names). However, I am certain that "Kabachan" is used nowhere to refer to this individual.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest moving the article to Eiji Kabashima and creating redirects. Ozob (talk) 11:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Eiji Kabashima" is not the most common name the subject is known as. "KABA.ちゃん" is, which is "KABA.chan" in English.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:46, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WIkiproject Babel

Can we get Wikiproject Babel organised as a default translation medium for non-English speaker?

Grevenko Sereth 219.90.215.67 (talk) 22:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Simple English Wikipedia. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:21, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hyphenation of Nazi Paramilitary Titles

[Refactored, to show clearly that OberRanks has moved the following discussion – between the horizontal lines that I have inserted – from WT:TITLE. MOS editors: please assist! NoeticaTea? 04:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)][reply]

Copied over per concerns. Should point out wasn't even sure where to start with this. If MOS is the proper place, then that is where we will go. -OberRanks (talk) 03:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all. Over the years there has been much discussion on the hyphenation of Nazi party titles, leading to several articles being moved, moved back, modified, reverted, and even a few edit wars. To further clarify, in the Nazi system it was common to use hyphens either after or before ranks and organization titles. Some examples include:

This is mainly an issue in the SS but crops up with other titles in other organizations every so often. We need a firm decision, in a referenced policy, to avoid future page moves and lengthy debates. The latest of which can be found here. Thank you! -OberRanks (talk) 18:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to read the essay on WP:Official names (which can apply to "official ranks and titles" as well). What matters is what the majority of English language sources use. If these ranks and titles are hyphenated in most English language sources, then we should hyphenate in our article titles... if not, then we should not. Blueboar (talk) 22:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OberRanks, this policy page (in its current and stable versions over recent times) does not mention or deal with hyphenation, or with any other matters of punctuation. The only exceptions concern technical difficulties with certain unusual characters, and the hyphen is certainly not among them. There has been dispute about the point that I make; but what I say is factual, until there is further discussion and resolution to modify policy.
What is not in dispute is this: WP:MOS (the main page of Wikipedia's Manual of Style) has extensive punctuation guidelines for the Project. I refer you in particular to this guidelines there: WP:HYPHEN. You may like to look also at the related guidelines WP:ENDASH and WP:SLASH.
Those guidelines are not in conflict with policy at the present page. If you are unsure of how to proceed, it would be appropriate to pose a question at the talkpage for WP:MOS, which is WT:MOS. Unfortunately, there is dispute there also. Many of us are looking forward to all that being resolved in an orderly way.
I hope that helps.
NoeticaTea? 22:43, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe hyphens should be in all of these titles per all of the policies mentioned. The difficulty occurs when new or inexperienced users begin removing hyphens or moving pages without consensus. It would be a good thing to be able to point to a well established discussion or mainstream policy and uphold the presence of hyphens in Nazi paramilitary titles. Would certainly avoid a lot of needless discussion and also unnecessary page moves and/or revert/edit wars. -OberRanks (talk) 23:43, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree the titles should be with hyphens. Three historian/authors I have books of use a hyphen in the titles above: For example, in Robin Lumsden's book: "A Collector's Guide to: The Allgemeine-SS". Chris McNab's book on "The SS", and "Uniforms of the SS, Volume 2, Germanische-SS, 1940-1945" by Hugh Page Taylor, the most distinguished historian of the three I list herein. Kierzek (talk) 00:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, the notion that this page should be making rulings on punctuation and typography that are inconsistent with the style guides is just not tenable: meta-pages need to work with each other, not against each other. The style guides apply to thousands of times the amount of text on WP. We need one voice, with the exception of particular technical issues pertaining only to the article titling system. Please raise this at the MoS. Tony (talk) 02:35, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Um... first... if there is a conflict between WP:Article titles and WP:MOS (and I don't think there is), it would be the MOS that would probably have to change. WP:AT is a policy after all, and the MOS is "just a guideline". Generally, when policies and guidelines conflict, it is the guideline that is edited to match the policy.
Second... WP:AT does not "make rulings on punctuation and typography". It defines how we determine our Article Titles (by following principles such as WP:COMMONNAME). Now, it may be that following those principles will, in specific instances, indicate that the best title is one that is not in accord with what is stated at the MOS, but those will probably be very rare.
Third... I don't think this is an MOS issue. If a significant majority of English Language discuss these ranks/titles using a hyphen, then our article title should do so. If a significant number of English Language discuss these ranks/titles without a hyphen, then our article title should do so. Blueboar (talk) 04:24, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree precisely with what Blueboar says. This has nothing to do with MOS; these are loan words from the German, to be looked up in an English dictionary (and in reliable sources) to see how English spells them. To pick one reliable source, William L. Shirer spells Waffen S.S. with periods and both with or without a hyphen, but capitalizes; the articles should have many other sources to hand. Capitalization should be commonplace, since these are ranks and organizations, and so usually proper nouns. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To add a footnote to my examples above: This started with "Germanic-SS" but does have an impact on several others. In that vain, I add to be noted another book; this by authoritative historian, Mark C. Yerger. "Allgemeine-SS: The Commands, Units and Leaders of the General SS". As one will note he uses a hyphen. Kierzek (talk) 16:34, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does WP:HYPHEN have anything useful to say?

The advice to look at WP:HYPHEN above seems odd. I invite people to actually look through it, and see whether it says anything applicable - either way - to this question. If so, what is it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:57, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What is the correct policy page which can make a decision about the hyphens? As if to demonstrate why this is a continuing issue, a relatively new user has begun a Page move vote on one of the German articles. -OberRanks (talk) 13:10, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Depends. MOS covers the style of the text of the articles, somewhat vaguely; WP:TITLE covers article titles and page moves. Their concerns are not identical, and TITLE is more likely to give a decisive answer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It was originally on WP:TITLE and was moved here per comments on that page that the discussion venue was incorrect. -OberRanks (talk) 15:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is fairly simple, as far as I'm concerned. If the title has been left in its original German form (e.g. Reichsführer-SS) then the hyphen should be retained, as that was the form actually used (and is also the form commonly used in modern English-language texts). If it's been translated into English (e.g. Germanic SS) then the hyphen should be removed, as this form is not generally used in English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:17, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is the complication that in some of these (Germanische SS, Allgemeine SS) the hyphen does not appear to be used in German. In Waffen-SS, the hyphen is used for incomplete abbreviation of the compound Waffenschutzstaffel. But allgemeine and germanische do not form a compound; they're adjectives. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:20, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think OberRanks made a mistake in moving this discussion from WT:TITLE. MOS really isn't the right venue to discuss this... at least not at this stage. Since we are talking about titles, the right venue was indeed WP:TITLE. I have no idea whether the hyphenated or non-hyphenated form is more common in English language sources ... but, per WP:TITLE that is the first criteria we need to look at to determine which we should use. Before we do anything else, we must look at the entirety of English language sources that discuss the topic, and see if one form or the other is used by a significant majority of English language texts. If so, that's what we should use for our article title.
Now... if neither form is significantly more common, then we look at other things to help us reach a consensus and "break the tie". We can look at what English language style guides say (that's where the MOS might help)... or, we can look at how the original German texts wrote it... there are a lot of things we can consider. But... first we must determine whether one form or the other is significantly more common.Blueboar (talk) 15:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In my defense, there was a direct statement given to me that TITLE was not the place for the discussion and to move the text to MOS. When I did, I was advised it should be moved back to TITLE as this was not the right place either. I did not want to jump around policy pages so choose this as a final home for it. I think we should focus back on the original question: should Nazi paramilitary ranks contain hyphens? -OberRanks (talk) 18:02, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The advice of User:Necrothesp makes sense. Respect that fact that in German, hyphens and compounding are quite different from what we do in English; if the title is German, use the German rules; if translated or transliterated to and English form, use the English rules. This applies in text as well as in title. Nothing about titles is different from what the WP:MOS specifies. Beware of advice from users who are on a current controversial campaign to ignore and tear down the MOS (PMAnderson and Blueboar). Dicklyon (talk) 18:28, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have to object to Dicklyon's personal attack... I can assure you that I am not on any sort of "campaign to ignore and tear down the MOS". And while I could easily issue a similar warning against taking advice from those who are on a "campaign to ignore or tear down WP:TITLE", I won't... because I don't think that is anyone's actual intent.
The simple fact is, the question of whether our articles about the Nazi paramilitary ranks should contain hyphens in their titles or not isn't covered anywhere in the MOS... but it is covered under WP:TITLE. Or, at least, WP:TITLE tells us how to determine the answer: Look at the reliable English language sources that mention such ranks, and see if a significant majority of them use hyphens or don't use hyphens. If there is a significant majority (either way), follow the sources. If not, then continue to discuss the pros and cons of each form, and reach a consensus. It really is that simple. Blueboar (talk) 18:45, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Blueboar: Please keep things balanced, and do not write contentiously or provocatively. Also, do not remove any edit of mine, especially one that shows me asking for order and balance, like this one:

[Blueboar, to be clear: "this page" would now refer to MOS itself. Would you like to amend your text? Just a technical aside. I have no time to join in concerning the substance, except to observe that the third point is a matter of complex contention. Other than that, I applaud the even-handed way you are presenting things. I do hope editors here can assist with this enquiry, without upsetting that balance. ☺ NoeticaTea? 05:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)]

Noetica, my apologies if my removing the above note earlier upset you... I did not think you would mind my removing it because I had followed your advice and amended my initial comment per your suggestion. I will not remove any of your comments again. Blueboar (talk) 03:18, 20 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]
Dicklyon: Please do not be provoked, even when faced by disorderly process.
A statement: I have zero time for WP right now, and must leave all this for today. Just to remind editors: I did not call for the enquiry above to be moved as it was to here. And I did not call for contention over well-worn issues. I merely stated some facts about the content of present policies and guidelines, and I called for MOS editors to give assistance to an editor who called for it. NoeticaTea? 23:08, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It was perhaps a stretch to link Blueboar to PMAnderson's campaign; PMAnderson is one who has said the MOS is contemptible and that we should just follow sources instead of having style guidelines of our own; I took Blueboar's strong support of PMAnderson's campaign to suggest that he is part of it. Just an observation, nothing personal intended. Dicklyon (talk) 00:01, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As this section proves: WP:HYPHEN is a dozen paragraphs with little useful to say about whether to use hyphens or not in this case - or any other. Dicklyon may be horrified by the base suggestion that Wikipedia be written in the common tongue; but do his inventions serve any actual purpose?Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, finally, some things we agree on. Not that I would be horrified, but that WP:HYPHEN has little specific to say about this case (and WP:TITLE, too), and that most of my inventions are not very useful. Dicklyon (talk) 03:03, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then can we try for something shorter and more useful? Ideally it would be closer to consensus among Wikipedians and to the practice of the English language - each should produce the other. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You want to shorten WP:HYPHEN to make it more useful? I was thinking it might be useful to add something about the fact that German compounds would often use hyphens where the corresponding English forms would not, and to respect the style of other languages when using foreign terms. Dicklyon (talk) 03:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We have a word for a book which specifies every situation where English style is in question, and provides a rule everywhere: it's called an unabridged dictionary. These already exist - and they are much longer even than this enormous page. No; we have already followed that road too far. Cut the section down to Hyphens are one way to form compound modifiers; to see whether a compound is normally hyphenated, consult the sources for the article or a good dictionary. [If multiple choices have significant usage, employ whichever is clearest in the given sentence added 04:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)] will say almost everything useful the section does, and editors will actually read it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:20, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That way lies chaos. When you have a compound used as an adjective, you google it, and use whatever style you find first or most prevalent? As if there's no grammar? I don't think it's a good idea. Would you tell Tony not to put the hyphen in "turf-war mentality", just because only 30% of the first 10 book hits do? Or would it still be OK to use better grammar than the average masses do? Dicklyon (talk) 04:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, that way lies order. If you don't know how to hyphenate, consult a dictionary; if the compound is too rare to be in a dictionary, consult the sources. (And if this comes up with multiple solutions in common use, use either; either will be intelligible.) That is exactly what we do with spelling; we specify that either English or American is acceptable - we don't attempt to specify what the English or American spellings are; dictionaries do that.
As for "turf-war mentality": either way is acceptable English, and that's why 30% - say - use it and 70% do not. Whether in any given sentence the bond requires the extra indication of the hyphen is a matter of editorial judgment, balancing between avoiding fussiness and clear indication of sentence structure; we cannot tell in advance, and a rational Manual would not try.
A Prussian regimentation is helpful to no-one; it will be wrong almost as often as it is right. A Prussian regimentation using the language necessary to describe something so idiosyncratic as English hyphenation is preposterous.
For example: The present text says Many compounds that are hyphenated when used attributively (before the noun they qualify: a light-blue handbag), are not hyphenated when used predicatively (separated from the noun: the handbag was light blue). That's accurate; but it is not drill-work: Some are not hyphenated used before the noun; others are hyphenated even when after the verb. We are not - we cannot be - a substitute for fluency in English backed by sound works of reference. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm all for sound works of reference. That doesn't preclude us from offering guidance on the standards that we aspire to. That's a lot more useful that just saying do whatever you see others do. In particular, if we say what standards we aspire to, then it can help guide decisions about what is the "better" form in many case (better in the context of the standards that we articulate for both consistency of style and best unambiguous readability). Dicklyon (talk) 05:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What you "articulate", then, is your personal taste for obsolete forms, always minority, now used by a miniscule remnant. Be not the first by which the new are tried; nor yet the last to lay the old aside is sounder advice than this. The mere fact that hardly anybody uses this guarantees that it does not communicate; we are not the "encyclopedia for a handful of devotees of the Oxford dash." But the situation is worse than that; why has this experiment in adding black–bird to black-bird, black bird, and blackbird failed? For the same reason it is controversial here: by and large it doesn't mean anything different from black-bird, and is useless; it doesn't help readability; that's not my judgment, but that of the collective writers of English.
(Where it does actually convey a genuine difference, the Oxford dash is still used by a substantial minority, and has not failed. Michelson–Morley should be not only permitted, but mentioned, with its purpose.)
A reasonable MOS would permit you to use your dash; it may yet succeed. And if not, let it be a "monument to the freedom with which error may be tolerated when reason is free to combat it." But it would not (and even this MOS does not) require the rest of us to join your idiolect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Final Thoughts

I think we are leaning towards translations of German paramilitary ranks into English should not utlaize hyphenation present in the original German. For instance Reichsführer-SS translated to Reich Leader SS, NOT Reich Leader-SS. Likewise, Germanische-SS translated to Germanic SS, Allgemeine-SS to General SS, and so on. If that sounds good, we can wrap up the discussion. -OberRanks (talk) 15:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If that is supported by the English language sources, fine. Blueboar (talk) 14:00, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both forms are supported by English langauge sources. Fortunately, the one that fits English grammar is more common in this case, so there's really no question. Dicklyon (talk) 16:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have we then made a final decision that translations of Nazi paramilitary titles should not contain a hyphen and that the original German version (untranslated) should? That makes since to me. -OberRanks (talk) 15:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Explicit coordination

WP:TITLE is only peripherally concerned with style. But there is still the potential for disharmony with what the style guides are telling editors to do in the main text, which, let's not forget, is generally thousands of times the size of the article name. This turf-war mentality about policy this, guideline that, is toxic to the project and should be binned immediately. I believe the talk pages of both WP:TITLE and WP:MOS (and perhaps the talk pages of the many other style guides) need a permanent note at the top advising that coordination between article names and all other text is important, and that any decision that is likely to have a bearing on the text of a style guide should be discussed in one place only and advertised at the other. That is the adult thing to do. Tony (talk) 02:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should say what has always been practice: WP:MOS is guidance about what is said in articles; WP:TITLE is policy about what they are titled (and in consequence where they are placed).
But since the only "turf war" has been a very small number of editors attempting to change this and make their extraordinary interpretations of the most disputed sections of this page prevail over policy (to say nothing of the English language and common sense), there is a much simpler solution.
Please stop. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, good idea. It would put a stop to this recent novel device of saying that they conflict (in areas where WP:TITLE has nothing to say, like when to use en dash) and that thus the MOS can be ignored. Dicklyon (talk) 03:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In point of fact, what presently conflicts with WP:TITLE is not the text of MOS, but the reading the two of you are forcing on it. Please stop that first. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think it was radical for WP to have a house style, as articulated in the MOS. It's been working for quite a few years; why the sudden urge to tear it down? Dicklyon (talk) 03:19, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Having "a house style" which is not English, but a congeries of failed experiments at language reform, has never worked. Those sections of MOS which describe some Newspeak, rather than English as she is, have always been controversial; that's why this page has 120 pages of archives. They make the encyclopedia harder to read and understand; to that extent they are actively harmful. Having a house style which reflected English usage and was supported by consensus would be really helpful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:48, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Both sides are acting as if there is some huge conflict between the MOS and TITLE... but I don't see it. Could someone explain to me where they think the conflict actually is? More to the point, how is telling people they should follow the WP:TITLE policy (and base titles on the most commonly used forms found in English language sources) an attempt to "tear down" the MOS? Blueboar (talk) 03:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. I said there wasn't. The conflict is between a handful of editors who would like MOS to prescribe something that is not common usage, and is not consensus, on the one hand, and COMMONNAME (and common sense) on the other. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:41, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I will leave you to argue the toss about individual cases, and I ask that posts be kept non-personal, per the civility policy; that includes continual references to "a handful of editors", or "eight editors", whatever it has been—that is not helpful. What I do propose is a simple measure that will place coordination on a better basis. It is the minimum expected of a professional-standard organisation, and we owe it to the editors to avoid inconsistent advice in two places. It is not acceptable that one page says one thing for article titles, and another page says something else for the main text. The talk pages need to remind participating editors of this. There should be no objection to consistency, collaboration, and well-oiled communication among editors in good faith. Tony (talk) 03:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there is, but the admin who moved Mexican–American War in response to PMA's request said there is in his closing statement. That was the theory by which that odd move got executed in the face of protests from those who wanted to stick with the WP:MOS. Dicklyon (talk) 03:58, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. The position of the minority in that move: that no evidence was necessary, that no usage was relevant, and that no such move could be made, anywhere in Wikipedia, unless it were discussed at WT:MOS first, does conflict with WP:TITLE. For that matter, it conflicts with WP:POLICY: guidelines derive from practice, and reflect best practice; when practice differs from guidelines, the guideline changes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, guidelines derive from practice and reflect best practice. So why change them when most practice is not best practice? Best practice uses punctuation to convey meaning. Most writers of English don't know how to do that very well. That's why only a few editors go to the trouble of cleaning up after the ones who get it wrong. Why would you want to throw out best-practice cues to the intended meaning, cues that help the reader avoid ambiguous readings, etc.? Dicklyon (talk) 04:36, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Such self-sacrifice, putting his poor elite self among the kicks of the mobile vulgus, protecting Wikipedia from the dread threat of being intelligible to our audience. Permit me a day or so swooning over such nobility.
Neither genuine learning nor a wish to communicate with the general reader will support such nonsense. The underlying issue is a pedantic experiment of a century ago, which did not catch on then and has failed now; the general reader will merely be puzzled by it; even a historian will merely be set off for a moment, baffled why we are doing such a thing. But a grammarian will recognize this obsolete pedantry, and wonder if our article is as precious and opinionated as its pointing. (All too often he will be right; but that is another problem.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good idea. A note at the top of each talk page telling editors to advise each other of any impending changes and inviting them to participate in the discussions about said changes would be a good thing, regardless of how few or how many editors participate in any so-called or actual turf wars. After all, there need be no question of which page outranks the other if they both match. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:19, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

underlying antagonism

OK... let me give you my perspective on what is going on here. We had a heated debate over a specific title (Mex-Am war)... a debate that might indicate a conflict between the MOS and TITLE (the conflict being how to resolve situations where the MOS indicates using a hyphen when WP:COMMONNAME indicates using a dash, or vise versa). Those of us who have worked on the MOS for years naturally support following the MOS in such situations, and those of us who have worked on TITLE for years naturally support following TITLE in such situations. Both sides in that debate are seeing the arguments of the other side as "an attempt to ignore and tear down" the page that they support. This has set up an adversarial mind-set, where people on both sides are assuming that any comment made by someone on the other side is part of that "attempt to ignore", even if the comment does not really relate to the original issue. Both sides have lost any pretense of maintaining good faith. That needs to stop. We can disagree (and even disagree strongly) over whether to follow the MOS or TITLE in situations when (and if) they conflict... but we must be civil about it, and we must respect the right of those who disagree with our views to disagree with us.
And, we all need to periodically step back, so that our disagreements over one issue do not bleed over into other issues. That is what seems to have occurred with the Nazi rank/title question. That question really had nothing to do with the issues being debated at the Mex-Am page.... but because the same editors were involved, everyone took a knee-jerk oppositional and adversarial stance. People assumed the worst, and saw disagreement when there wasn't really anything to disagree on. Blueboar (talk) 14:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is a false parity; but I hope it does produce peace. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:40, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I said it was my perspective... and "I calls it like I sees it". I assume that the rest of you will have different perspectives. To my mind, parity does not really matter... I think there is enough "blaming the other guy" to go around (And I don't exclude myself in that). The important thing is for everyone to try to move beyond accusing each other of nefarious acts and intentions. Blueboar (talk) 22:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Use of given names

Can I suggest to those Wikipedians who have influence that the use of first names in articles should be discouraged? Often I have seen an article about a personality – let's call her Jane Bloggs – and, after the first mention, she is referred to as Jane, not Bloggs. While a contributor may have a liking for a person he or she is writing about, this should not be reflected in the article, and the use of a first name in subsequent mentions of the subject's name suggests a familiarity that may or may not exist, and, either way, is not relevant. A surname-only approach (once the subject has been introduced, of course) distances Wikipedia from the subject, and that's how it should be to maintain the appearance of impartiality at all times.

I would suggest this, too, for those with titles. We may say Sir Elton John to begin with, but "John" should then be the subsequent reference to him; the same with Lady Thatcher or Lord Mandelson.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, folks. I did have a look.

Ajarmitage (talk) 11:32, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the policy: it is as you suggest. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:HONORIFICS, which immediately precedes the paragraph that Old Moonraker has referred you to, may also be of interest to you. Kevin McE (talk) 13:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
When you see a mistake like that, Ajarmitage, just go in and correct it. Raise it on the articles' talk pages if you like, but you don't need permission. Except for when dealing with people from Iceland, using the surname is standard throughout English. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As an exceptional matter, calling a knight Sir Elton is correct; it is more formal than the full name. I was just reading the memoirs of a Foreign Office clerk who was dressed down for daring to refer to the Foreign Secretary as Edward Grey, instead of the proper Sir Edward. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not just Iceland (see Viswanathan Anand), though if you replace “surname” with “last name” that might be right. Anyway, there might be exceptions for particular individuals: I'd bet that many more reliable secondary sources in English refer to Dante Alighieri as Dante than as Alighieri. 137.43.105.17 (talk) 23:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sub-heading format

Should sub-headings use === type markup, or definition list markup, as shown in this series of edits. I've made my views known, but additional input would be welcome. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:01, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See MOS:HEAD, point 5 (permanent link here).
  • Spaced or unspaced multiple equal signs are the style markup for headings. The triple apostrophes () that make words appear in boldface are not used in headings. The nesting hierarchy for headings is as follows:
    • the automatically generated top-level heading of a page is H1, which gives the article title;
    • primary headings are then ==H2==, ===H3===, ====H4====, and so on until the lowest-level heading ======H6======.
—Wavelength (talk) 15:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, if you are dealing with a series of very short entries, too numerous to be listed in the table of contents, like WP:MOS#Wikilinks, a bold marker followed by an entry is fine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A low level header, which does not appear in the ToC, can also be achieved by starting a line with a semicolon. Any text after this, before a carriage return, will be displayed in bold, and equivalent text size to using 5 equals signs either side of the header text. Kevin McE (talk) 20:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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