Talk:Gaza flotilla raid

POV

This article is extremely pro-Israel. --J4\/4 <talk> 16:06, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The sections describing the individual accouns is ok, but other parts are clearly biased.Andraxxus (talk) 12:39, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

The article went full circle, from pro-activist to now pro-Israel, in some respects. I have already discovered sources where information from within them was cherrypicked, where important details were ignored often because they contradicted the Israeli account. I am also worried by the amount of Israeli Government material which is being used to make up key arguments and passages in the article. These primary sources should be substituted. ValenShephard (talk) 04:04, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Probably this is the effect of Israel having been the only one to complete an investigation into the incident. However, substituted sounds very POV. Every source should be evaluated on its own merits and not substituted because it is inconvenient to someone. Koakhtzvigad (talk) 06:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

We should use primary sources with great caution, per WP:PRIMARY. In particular, primary sources should not determine the weight of different aspects of a topic or of different views of an event.  Cs32en Talk to me  06:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

And interviews with "survivors" are not primary sources? I'd say they also qualify for WP:OR if the journalists were Wikipedia editors Koakhtzvigad (talk) 15:02, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a reason why many of these articles are pro-Israel. Zionist movements are learning their people how to play the system that is wikipedia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY They are getting courses about how to fight their 'zionist war' on wikipedia, what the rules are and how to find the loopgholes. There is no solution to this until their force is neutralized by people in Gaza doing the same thing. But of course those people have nothing, let alone a computer. --95.96.30.170 (talk) 20:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, PA ranks alongside Hungary and Serbia on the MPI, and it's not unlikely that Gaza is even poorer. But apparently they have internet cafes, so I think they must have a few computers as well :-) http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article5424671.ece http://opennet.net/research/profiles/gazawestbank —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketil (talk • contribs) 04:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I came here to point out this youtube video as well. I'm glad someone else has already mentioned it. It is a bit old anyway but has anyone identified the user claiming to make POV edits in the video? Perhaps tracing the other articles he edits would be a good way to counter some vandalism.--27.32.168.222 (talk) 11:32, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Tipo on the text

"on May 31, 2010 in international waters of the Mediterranean Sea.." should have one period only, and not two. (sorry if this is not the correct way of introducing a suggestion, is my first contributionn). Jorgecarleitao (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Problematic and suspicious information

This article is utterly on the side of Israel. Especially about the flotilla participants' use of weapons, there are many -actually unconfirmed and proven to be wrong by the recent UN Report on the flotilla- information. And the article is written in a way to make us believe some weapons were exactly leakt in the ship by the participants. The resources given to confirm these are generally also coming from the biased or anti Islamic (which is another problematic issue put forward in the article as if all these actions against the blockade in Gaza were organized by radical Islamic groups ) broadcast. Another idea put forward in this article is that Israel offered the flotilla to hand the humanitarian aid to themselves so that they can transmit them to Gaza. However it is obviously known that Israel forces do not allow all the aid coming from the world into Gaza. Beatrice.rfb (talk) 12:12, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree, there are currently FOUR photographs of IDF soldiers including a repeated photo in the references section of a solider being thrown over board, one injured being 'dragged by activists' one having their wounds tended to and one allegedly showing soldiers being beaten. There is currently only ONE photo of a victim of the raid. There is a great joke from the late Mitch Hedberg that goes something like this: You know when you see an advertisement for a casino, and they have a picture of a guy winning money? That's false advertising, because that happens the least. That's like if you're advertising a hamburger, they could show a guy choking. "This is what happened once." ... That is how I feel about these misleading photographs. It draws visual attention the the IDF "victims" without showing the casualties from the Flotilla Participants who are the real victims. We can't say that in the article though without a citation. I was long skeptical of the jokes about Zionists 'vandalizing' the Wikipedia and changing history to favor Israel. But over the past two weeks I've witnessed this myself (most of it is archived for all to see thankfully, although most will never go looking for it) and have made a couple comments which received deflecting replies. There is a real video on you tube regarding "Zionist Editing on Wikipedia" which interviews Israelis at a seminar regarding editing Wikipedia because it is the largest source of information in the world at this time. Here is a direct quote from the video that is not taken out of context - “if someone searches ‘the Gaza flotilla,’ we want to be there; to influence what is written there, how it’s written and to ensure that it is balanced and Zionist in nature.” ... Now I'm not going to argue with being balanced but the current article is CLEARLY unbalanced in favor of Israel. Nobody wants the article to be Zionist in nature, that would make it biased as it currently is. I personally barely recall the Gaza flotilla incident and what I do remember was that it defied an "illegal" blockade in the name of peace and when IDF troops got involved they were attacked and 'forced to defend themselves'. I believed this because it was presented to me on the news that way. This article mostly supports that Israel side of the story and needs desperately to be balanced with many of the biased sources removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryal-oh (talk • contribs) 18:09, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

As an immediate measure, I suggest that material sourced to this source name="testimonies">http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e162.pdf be removed from the text, since that document is released by some "terrorism information centre" in Israel and the text is very much what you'd expect. Secondly, the article is way too long and has too much text along the lines of "then the second soldier grabbed the rope". --Dailycare (talk) 21:13, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Come on, isn't it enough "Zionist cabal" soapboxing for one week? Gimme a break, I briefly looked through the papers from the famous seminar; it's more or less a copy-paste of 5 pillars. On terrorism-info.org.il: not sure about complete removal, but since it's an NGO it should be, at least, properly attributed. On the article length: I completely agree with Dailycare, may be it's the time for massive cleanup. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:44, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this sentence means: "some weapons were exactly leakt in the ship by the participants". And the UN report actually confirms that passengers prepared weapons to be used against the soldiers (paragraph 101). Furthermore, the UN report also confirms that passengers used fists, sticks, metal rods and knives to attack the soldiers (paragraph 115-116). So, I'm really not sure what you're talking about here.

As for terrorism.info.org.il, they are an NGO with a mission dedicated to researching and reporting on terrorism. What's wrong with that? Being based out of Israel is not enough of a reason to remove a source.

But I do agree that the photos have certainly been tilted toward the Israel side. Once upon a time, I complained that the photos were tilted toward the protesters and not showing any of them attacking soldiers. Now, I agree it's gone too far in the other direction. And that should be fixed.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 00:36, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Being an NGO with a mission isn't enough to become a source. If a reliable secondary source publishes terrorism.info.org.il's material then it can be sourced from there. --Dailycare (talk) 20:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Dailycare, I don't know where you got that idea. What's the difference between a for-profit group reporting on the news, and a non-profit group reporting on the news?!? Furthermore, the identifying reliable sources page says that "primary sources" should be used with "caution" to avoid original research. But it definitely does _not_ say that they cannot or should not be used. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 02:50, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

One difference is that the other may be known for a professional editorial policy and fact-checking, whereas the other isn't. One reason secondary sources are preferred is precisely because that way we can let them pick and choose from among primary ones. And of course, also primary sources need to be reliable. The Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center is according to its page "often regarded as being the "public face of Israeli intelligence". That may not be a ringing endorsement of reliability specifically with regard to this raid and the behaviour of the activists and Israeli soldiers during the raid. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Huh, you know that you can't base your argument on something that Wikipedia says :) --ElComandanteChe (talk) 21:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Very pro Israel article, especially the actual raid part.It includes loads of what the IDF said happened and little of what others said happened. Al Jazerra reporter on the ship said that the Israelis fired live rounds before they even boarded from helicopters and hit a guy in the head standing by him.That was reported at the time on virtually every news channel but did not even make it into the raid article.Why is that?I suggest putting it in because at the moment it just reads like and IDF report.Owain the 1st (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see it. The reporter also claims that one person was shot in the head from a helicopter. Where is the body? Have you entertained the notion that the IDF account might be closer to what actually happened, than the sum of all activist accounts? Where are the "terrible injuries" caused by paintball ammo with "glass shards" in them? Who are the missing passengers, allegedly killed and presumably hid by the IDF? Ketil (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

You do not see what?Where is the body?There were 9 of them, maybe you missed the news.I suggest you read the UN report into the events as that will tell you that the Israeli version of events is mostly fantasy as usual.Owain the 1st (talk) 13:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

IIRC, here were eight people shot with soldier's side arms, and one killed with a bean bag shot. If somebody was indeed shot from a helicopter, it's most likely with a rifle or mounted gun, and in any case, he should have been shot from above. Now, which of them was it? I have seen absolutely no corroborating evidence of this, and I find it most likely that the reporter is simply mistaken. But if you have specific references, please bring them forward!  As for the UN report (presumably the HRC one?) it just lists a bunch of condemations, it doesn't provide the grounds for making these conclusions. So the only real information in it is that the HRC is very critical of Israel. Ketil (talk) 19:35, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

You are incorrect to state that eight people where shot with soldiers side arms for starters.I will quote the Turkish Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul.said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds. "All [the bullets] were intact. This is important in a forensic context. When a bullet strikes another place it comes into the body deformed. If it directly comes into the body, the bullet is all intact."

He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds. Of the other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."Also from the Turkish report into the incident..Turkey's report said two of the activists killed on the vessel, the Mavi Marmara, were shot from a military helicopter.

"The Israeli soldiers shot from the helicopter onto the Mavi Marmara using live ammunition and killing two passengers before any Israeli soldier descended on the deck," said the report, published by state-run news agency Anatolian.Owain the 1st (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Che, good point. However there are sources on that page that substantially support the gist of the statement. --Dailycare (talk) 19:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, the issue with the whole article is that it was written up as the events evolved using the press. Most of the references are to mainstream press sources, but some aren't, and should be replaced. I wonder if it is possible now to find some better sources, with more analysis than was possible at the time. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:40, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Owain, I'm all for putting back up the reports that a journalist on board the ship _claimed_ that Israel fired live rounds for the helicopters at passengers. It shouldn't have been removed. And it _could_ be true. However IMHO, it should be countered by the UN report on the Flotilla which were "unsatisfied that this was the case". -- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The UN report stated that and I quote"However, it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top

deck prior to the descent of the soldiers".The line you have posted is about the unsuccessful boarding from the boats. As this is the case it backs up the report from the Al Jazeera reporter that the Israelis were firing live rounds from the helicopter before they descended.Therefore his report that he saw a person get shot in the head from an helicopter should be put back in.Page 26 UN report.Owain the 1st (talk) 19:07, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I have added what Jamal Elshayyal an Al Jazeera reporter stated about the Israelis firing live rounds at people before they even landed on the ship and UNHRC report about Israelis firing live rounds before landing soldiers on the deck with links.I do not know why it was ever removed, it was an eyewitness account.Owain the 1st (talk) 19:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Owain, you're right, I was wrong. It was claims that live rounds were fired from the boats which were rejected by the UN. I have no problem at all with your change, and agree that it should never have been removed. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Note - I also tried to improve the balance slightly by removing the photo of the soldier being thrown overboard, and changing the caption of the other photo from "activists beat soldiers" to "clash between activists and soldiers". -- Bob drobbs (talk) 06:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Bob drobbs, in 101. paragraph it is obviously seen that passengers did not use that tools as weapons although there were some, and when they were found they were confiscated not to be used by anyone. It is true that they reacted with some sticks, but this was a reaction to plastic and real bullets. And it is again fixed by this Report that no weapons were allowed into the ship before sailing. My gramatically wrong sentence "some weapons were exactly leakt in the ship by the participants" actually means this.

In Cargo section of the article it says "In addition, the flotilla was found to be carrying ballistic vests, gas masks, night-vision goggles, clubs, and slingshots.[52] " However, the reference for this and many other contributions comes from [The Jerusalem Post] known for its radical defence on Israeli side about this and other issues related to blockade of Gaza. Beatrice.rfb (talk) 10:41, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Beatrice, whatever _you_ may think about the Jerusalem Post, in this case they are right. The UN report makes no mention either way about the less relevant bullet proof vests and gask buts, but it _does_ confirms that activists used knives, metal rods, and slingshots to attack Israeli soldiers. Clearly these things were aboard the ship, if they used them to attack soldiers:

'"A number of the passengers on the top deck fought with the soldiers using their fists, sticks, metal rods and knives. . . At least one of the soldiers was stabbed with a knife or other sharp object. ... The Mission is satisfied on the evidence that at least two passengers on the bridge deck also used handheld catapults to propel small projectiles at the helicopters."'

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 05:55, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is Wikipedia hosting pure propaganda? I mean this isn't a slightly "biased" article, its straight props. Why is this article trying to paint a picture of bloodthirsty arab suicide bombers ambushing the gentle loving peace spreading commandos who came to bring them sugar canes and rainbows. I'd like to be constructive and help rewrite portions of this, but you might as well delete this page and start over at this point, its FUBAR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.118.241 (talk) 08:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

What I find interesting is that no matter what side of the fence you are on, the fact is that the flotilla was running a blockade. A declared Naval blockade by the state of Israel. Even this site says about blockade runners "Blockade-runners have always been considered enemy combatants by the blockading party and have been fired upon or captured when detected." So what did anyone expect to happen? What actually did happen? Whether it was bloodthirsty Arab suicide bombers, or whether it was Zionist Naval strong-arming. . there is one, and only one, outcome from a blockade runner getting caught. And that is what happened.

Problematic sentence

There is this one-line paragraph:

According to some accounts by passengers, IDF soldiers denied medical treatment to several wounded activists who died shortly thereafter.[154][162][163][164][165]

I've looked through the sources, and it's not clear to me what this refers to, most accounts seem to be about people being hindered in the midst of battle. The way it is now, it reads as if IDF was actively letting people die of the wounds in the aftermath, which again seems NPOV. The references point to various eye-witness accounts that are rather chaotic. I'd like this to be more explicit in what it describes, or removed. Ketil (talk) 12:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

More explicit?

Yes. Or detailed, precise. I understand that some would prefer blanket statements that confer one side as evil and the other as good, but I'd like to have a more specific information, each fact appropriately sourced. Ketil (talk) 04:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Are eyewitness accounts not good enough for you?

The UN report into the incident states that injured activists were made to wait up to 3 hours for treatment, while being tied up as well.From the UN report,

130. The flotilla organisers and other passengers engaged in efforts to request the Israeli forces to provide the necessary treatment to the wounded persons. One organiser used the ship’s intercom to request assistance in Hebrew and persons also communicated directly through the cabin windows or by placing signs, written in English and Hebrew, in the ship’s windows. These attempts proved unsuccessful and it was up to two hours before the Israeli forces took out the wounded persons. However, the wounded were required to leave the cabins themselves, or taken outside in a rough manner, without apparent concern for the nature of their injuries and the discomfort that this would cause. 131. The wounded passengers were taken to the front of the top deck where they joined other passengers injured during the operation on the top deck and where the bodies of persons killed during the operation had been left. Wounded passengers, including persons seriously injured with live fire wounds, were handcuffed with plastic cord handcuffs, which were often tied very tightly causing some of the injured to lose sensitivity in their hands. These plastic handcuffs cannot be loosened without being cut off, but can be tightened. Many were also stripped naked and then had to wait some time, possibly as long as twothree hours, before receiving medical treatment. Medical treatment was given to a number of wounded persons on the top deck by the Israeli forces.Owain the 1st (talk) 13:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Where does that say that anyone died of their wounds shortly after being denied medical treatment? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Here you go, from one of the links on the line that he is complaining about.From Knesset member

Zuabi said that naval boats surrounded the Mavi Marmara and fired on it before soldiers abseiled aboard from a helicopter. She went below to the ship's hold and said that, within minutes, two dead passengers were brought inside, followed by two more who had been seriously wounded.

soldiers refused her requests for medical assistance for the injured passengers, who died shortly after.Owain the 1st (talk) 13:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

So the article should say "According to Zuabi, two wounded passengers died shortly after soldiers refused her request for medical assistance". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Well no as another link on the end of that sentence in Turkish has evidence from a crew member I believe stating that due to the Israelis not giving medical aid more people died.You have read thru the links before commenting right?Going on the links it looks like the statement that is being complained about is in order and has sources to back it up, therefore there is no reason to change it or remove it Owain the 1st (talk) 14:55, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't read Turkish. Could you translate the relevant passages? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Well there you go then, I rest my case.Try google translate.Thanks. Owain the 1st (talk) 20:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what case you're resting. While google translate might be good for getting the gist of things, I doubt it should be used for an encyclopedia. I gather you don't know Turkish either? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I rest my case because obviously I have done the research into it.Go read the Turkish official inquiry into the incident, it says and I quote:Numerous testimonies also indicate that at least three of the deaths occurred because Israeli soldiers denied timely medical attention to the wounded. So we have numerous statements that state that the Israelis failed to treat the wounded and some died.Official Turkish Inquiry Owain the 1st (talk) 22:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

So we can attribute it to the Turkish Inquiry, which presumably includes Zuabi's opinion as well. Nice web site there, by the way. Not the sort of link I'm inclined to follow. I don't like giving traffic to hate sites. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:18, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Up to you if you do not want to read the report.I am linking to the report not to any so called hate site.It seems to be the only place that has the report that I could find.I will put the link in the article tomorrow and from that site unless you can provide another source. Owain the 1st (talk) 22:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

That's not a reliable source for official reports. If you put a link to that site in the article, I'll remove it. If this is an official report, you should be able to find it somewhere that meets RS criteria. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously it is the official report.You can do what you want.I see nothing wrong with it.Guess you will have to explain yourself when you delete it and if you continue to delete it then I will report you.Anyway as it happens I have just found another link for it here.[1]Funny how this report does not have a page of its own on this site, I will make one and link it to the Gaza flotilla article.Owain the 1st (talk) 23:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)See WP:BURDEN. That site is only reliable for its opinions. "Obviously it is the official report" is not exactly a policy compliant reason to include it.

The new site you just posted doesn't load for me. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:16, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Loads fine here.I will be posting that tomorrow.It comes from this site http://www.turkishweekly.net/ Owain the 1st (talk) 23:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I've been able to access the PDF at this URL without any problems.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

For those that can't access it, the passage from that PDF that appears relevant to this issue is:

"Numerous testimonies also indicate that at least three of the deaths occurred because Israeli soldiers denied timely medical attention to the wounded. Sümeyye Ertekin and Halis Akıncı testified that the Israeli soldiers hit those doctors trying to help the wounded with the butts of their rifles. Edda Manga says 'They did not allow the medics to treat the people; the doctors and nurses were forced at gunpoint to leave the wounded.' Ali Buhamd‘s testimony contains a grim mixture of some of the points made above: 'I saw a soldier shooting a wounded Turk in the head. There was another Turk asking for help, but he bled to death.'"

Those sentence reference a half dozen eye witness testimonies in the footnotes, and this article. ← George ^talk 00:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Does it look like the official report from a reliable source? It still doesn't load for me for some reason. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It is the official report and the source looks fine.Report on the Israeli Attack on the Humanitarian Aid Convoy to Gaza Owain the 1st (talk) 09:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I was asking George. I've seen what you consider a reliable source. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:30, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

No need to be so nasty.I believe it is obvious that George thinks it is fine otherwise he would have said something.Anyway I have added the link to the article.Have fun.Owain the 1st (talk) 10:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It's 117 pages long, with 375 footnotes, and lists 45 conclusions at the end. It lists the Turkish National Commission of Inquiry as the author of the report, and it does read like something put together by a Turkish commission tasked with submitting a report to the UN. The Turkish Weekly website looks like an ordinary news journal (including national and international news reports, op-eds, and book reviews), so my inclination would be to say that it's reliable. Obviously that doesn't mean it's neutral or impartial, but probably reliable by Wikipedia's standards for Turkish viewpoints, claims, and witness accounts of the incident. ← George ^talk 18:28, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

See Also link (Bahrain Aid Flotilla)

This link was recently added to the See Also section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain_Aid_Flotilla

This seems to have been added as a way to promote the Bahrain flotilla, rather than because there is any connection.

I'm removing the link for the time being. If you feel this was in error feel free to re-add it, but please put your reasoning in the discussion section. Zuchinni one (talk) 22:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I find it surprising that this article was modeled in such a pro-israeli manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.70.228.78 (talk) 21:10, 26 May 2011 (UTC)