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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 60.48.251.8 (talk) at 04:09, 13 June 2011 (→‎Europe is secular). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:VA Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

Former good article nomineeEurope was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 26, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
March 5, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

Economy of Europe

I think this would be in the economy section: Europe has a long history as the world's richest and most productive part of the world. At the time of Christ's birth is estimated western European output per capita was approximately 30% higher than the world average. Year 1500 had this advantage increased to 40%.[1] After the development of science and the Industrial Revolution in Europe grew its lead quickly, in 1700 produced an average European almost 70% more than world's average population, and in 1850 was taken over the entire 150%. Around the year 1900 was Western Europe's leading role as the world's most productive area has been taken over by the former European colony of the United States, but Europe has continued to belong to the world's richest, most productive and knowledge-producing regions.[1]

During the Cold War

The sentences 'During the Cold War, Europe was divided along the Iron Curtain between NATO in the west and the Warsaw Pact in the east' (lead) and 'After World War II the map of Europe was redrawn at the Yalta Conference and divided into two blocs, the Western countries and the communist Eastern bloc, separated by what was later called by Winston Churchill an "iron curtain"' imply a complete partition. They do not account for the neutral countries. 212.183.140.19 (talk) 15:42, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Having grown up in the US during the 1970s and '80s, I can tell you that there was no distinction made by my teachers between Warsaw Pact countries and non-Warsaw Pact communist countries. Nor was there any great distinction drawn between NATO countries and non-NATO capitalist countries. Switzerland was seen as Western European ('us') while Yugoslavia was seen as Eastern European ('them'), there was no recognition of a neutral stance. At least that's the way it was presented to me. --Khajidha (talk) 12:44, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

edit request

I was thinking of adding information on Warsaw Confederation from January 28, 1573, as it was in fact the first document providing the citizens total religious freedom. The document was included by UNESCO in Memory of the World Programme (also called World Documentary Heritage). I believe that such important event should be mentioned in the article about Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.14.6 (talk) 09:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And, of course, Constitution of May 3, signed in 1791, as the first modern European Constitution should be included as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.14.6 (talk) 09:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add something on this article, actually remove a mistake... Northern Cyprus is not a country, no other nation in the world (excluding Turkey) recognizes Northern Cyprus as a country, so this mistake shouldn't even exist in Wikipedia. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.110.254.217 (talk) 18:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Image bloat

The image bloat is horrible. In the section Definition there are three images side by side, at left "the Historical Europe-Asia boundaries", in the middle the "Clickable map of Europe" and at right "Europa regina map". I think the half number of the current images are justified, the rest can go. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 15:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to shrink the image texts. Maybe most of the images are informative after all. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 15:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recent blanking of maps

Disruption to article by sockpuppet of indefinitely banned user User:Satt 2

When maps have been in the article for a long time and where a consensus has been painstakingly developed, one editor should not unilaterally blank them, That was true in particular of the prinicpal clickable map, which is the result of many days of discussion over several years. Mathsci (talk) 05:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edit and removed another map authored by Dbachmann because it is unsourced.I would like to do the same thing about the clickable map because one's idea of "common definition" may not be that of another. Moreover, I just looked at the National Geographic definition (which the map claims to be based on)- NG Student Handbook pg 93/Asia - and it seems that the European parts of the Caucasus are at least twice as large as they are on this map. So I'm not sure why NG is being used as a source, clearly that must have mixed it up with something else.--Mschwerin (talk) 06:50, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Mschwerin: You may have some valid arguments against these maps, and make your case here for deleting them eventually. Nevertheless, Mathsci is right that this content was introduced by consensus after long discussions, which also manifests in the fact that they are standing for a very long time now. This means, the status quo has to prevail on the article until the discussion here comes to a conclusion, see WP:BRD. Mathsci has already hinted you on this. The fact that you reverted after this notice does not make your case stronger. If you continue like this, you may soon be identified as vandal. So, please take my advice, leave the article as is, and discuss your proposals here until we reach consensus. Tomeasy T C 07:08, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mscherin should not be labelled as a vandal. A disruptive editor maybe, but not a vandal. As for his point, I think he is noting that at the moment there truly are far too many images in this article. The MOS notes that no text should be sandwiched between two images, yet in this article, especially in History and Geography, pictures line both sides of the text. Some need to be removed. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Chip, I did not call Mschwerin a vandal. Rather I explained a bit how BRD is to be understood, and that any further reverts on the main page in order to deviate from status quo before such a deviation has achieved consensus here could then be considered as vandalism.
The case becomes critical only now, after citing and explaining BRD to Mschwerin, and Mschwerin reverting again. I understand well the argument why they want to remove the map, but as long as people want to have the article as it was for very long, the version must stand while arguments are exchanged on talk. Mschwerin has unfortunately shown today that they do not understand or do not want to acknowledge this concept of Wikipedia editing. This should be a conern to you, Chip, too now. I guess you would do better to try to convince Mschwerin about the proper conduct in such cases, which we have here every day and should be able to handle without revert warring on the main page. Tomeasy T C 17:52, 3 May 2011 (UTC)::[reply]
Tomeasy, I understood the consensus argument regarding the clickable map - that is why I did not revert mathsci on that - but I cannot find any consensus on Dbachmann's map down below which you have restored. The fact is that his map is not based on any particular source and in many regards restates what other maps are saying; this should be enough of a reason to clean this mess. I am glad that he discovered passion for cartography but this is not his exhibit.--Mschwerin (talk) 14:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That map has never been discussed. Dbachmann is a reliable and long-term editor; I have no reason to doubt that particular map. It is quite informative and it does not directly duplicate other maps. Mathsci (talk) 14:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Mschwerin, you did the right thing when you deleted the map in the first place because you in your eyes it was original research. But now, you have learnd that someone opposes this deletion and reverted you, which was also fine. As a matter of fact, the map was used for quite some time without being disputed. So, if you want it to go away, you will have to convince people here first. Please read BRD, cited above, to understand that during the discussion process status quo should prevail. If you have questions or comments regarding this Wikipedia policy, please feel free to ask. However, do not keep revert warring on the main page. This would, indeed Chipmunkdavis, be interpreted as vandalsim, because it would be a persistent and intentional violation of a Wikipedia policy. Tomeasy T C 18:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well Tomeasy, I disagree with your definition of vandalism, but I think we can both agree it's bad. Anyway, @Mschwerin, even though I agree with you in principle, Stop removing maps until you have the explicit agreement of other editors on this talk page. There, that's stated now, please present a case for the maps you want to remove. Simple I think map X should be removed because of Y. I believe that Dbachmann has created his maps based off reliable sources (indeed, he went on a spree of removing unsourced maps himself), but you'd best ask them yourself if you're still unsure. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 18:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Chip. @Mschwerin, I presume your major problem with this map is the unique definition of a border between Europe and Asia, whereas the clear location of this border is often disputed. Tomeasy T C 19:25, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure why DBachmann's standing on wikipedia should be an excuse for not providing evidence. There are many other respectable editors who may not agree, should they all go and create maps of their own because they have a good reputation? And FYI, Dbachmann's map was not here for quite some time. He merely replaced the old unsourced map 2/3 weeks ago with his own unsourced map; now tell me, what was the point of doing that if both are OR? This seems like an attempt to push a single point of view and that is why I am in favor of providing a survey of maps down below so that readers may look at them and draw conclusions themselves.--Mschwerin (talk) 00:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you're talking about File:Europe Asia transcontinental.png then I personally assure you it is based on sources. It follows the Ural Mountain, Ural River, and Caucasus Mountains, which if you search you will find is the most commonly accepted border. Dbachmann has sources for this, not to worry. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If so, then these sources could be added to the file description. Would this satisfy you, Mschwerin? Tomeasy T C 07:01, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the map is furnished with sources, one question must still be answered: What is the use of having two maps on this page if they display the same border definition? Clearly, the smaller map does not differ from the clickable map in any way other than having Asian extensions of countries colored. The previous map was there because it was an alternative definition but now that it is removed I see no need to include more of the same. So you see, we go back to the question of crowding. *I think the smaller map can stay only if the clickable map loses coloring and displays only names.* That way Wikipedia will not attempt to decide what has not been decided for centuries.--Mschwerin (talk) 04:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The clickable principal map is the result of long discussions. There is no consensus whatsoever to change it. Mschwerin should read this page and its archives as well as the talk page of Template:Europe and Sea for discussions of transcontinental country. There seems to be no point in repeating those discussions, since the issues have been resolved in detail in the article. One indefinitely blocked user Polgraf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), using the alternative accounts Satt 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and ComtesseDeMingrelie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), also indefinitely blocked, has periodically raised the question of continental boundaries. Mathsci (talk) 05:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is an argument to be made that perhaps it does not relate to political geography as such, but the same could be made for the UN and CIA maps, which just divide up the countries in a manner probably unrelated to politics. I agree with Mathsci, the clickable map is not going anywhere, it's quite useful. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:18, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The clickable map may be useful but it should not be colored the way it is. There is no reason why that particular definition should be used on the main map and not some other. The argument that it is the most common definition does not make any difference; this is not a source competition and I am not going to start counting what Nat. Geo, CIA, Council of Europe etc. think is Europe. The border issue won't be resolved on this page, or any other for that matter. This is why I propose that the map either lose its color or be relegated to the rest of the maps down below, where there is no implication whatsoever that wikipedia endorses this particular point of view. (Having it in its size in the beginning of the article is just that in all but name).--Mschwerin (talk) 05:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
These issues have already been discussed multiple times, resolved and taken care of in the article, with careful sourcing. There seems to be no merit in any of your suggestions. Mathsci (talk) 06:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see anything in discussions that says that wikipedia has agreed to be an arbiter and determine where the continental borders go; this is neither its responsibility nor a reasonable expectation. Sadly, I think that what this page displays is an attempt to solve a problem that will unlikely be solved once and for all unless there is an ad hoc international agreement. This being said, I think my suggestions have merit. "careful sourcing", in case you did not read my above post, makes absolutely no difference because, as I said, this is not a reference competition and it is not wikipedia's prerogative to determine anything, only present what is already out there in a neutral manner. I do not see why you are all so against letting the readers determine where the borders are by simply providing a survey of maps, all of equal size, placement, and importance. --Mschwerin (talk) 06:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, your contributions are becoming disruptive. I suspect that you are probably a sockpuppet of a banned user.[1] Mathsci (talk) 07:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now Mschwerin appears to be editing disruptively by repeatedly blanking the maps. Not good. Mathsci (talk) 07:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Formatting changes indeed ;) I contacted one of the admins who previously dealt with the situation to assess. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reported on WP:AN3 here after 5 reverts. Mathsci (talk) 08:12, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now indefinitely bocked as sockpuppet of Satt 2. Mathsci (talk) 12:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Definition/Geography and Extent

As it stands, there is a pointless overlap between the two. I suggest redefining the geography section to simply Geography, and move all extent information up to the definition section. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fine to me. Mathsci (talk) 07:20, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

countries not entirely in Europe

I agree with: Russia; Georgia; Turkey; Kazakhstan; Azerbaijan. But what about France and Spain? Brownturkey (talk) 19:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If this is in regards to the maps in political geography, the ones coloured are coloured due to the fact that somehow a line is drawn through them artificially separating them between Europe and Asia. The border between Asia and Europe isn't based on any geographic reasoning, and these countries are often found in lists of European and Asian countries. Spain and France, with the vast bulk of their territory firmly in Europe, including major political and demographic centres, have territories that are outside of Europe, but clearly separated (and so the border is not blurred). I have yet to see France or Spain pop up in a general RS list of South American or African countries anyway. If you see one, please inform me! Chipmunkdavis (talk) 04:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
France is listedon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America Brownturkey (talk) 06:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we can't cite wikipedia. Anyway, the whole point of the map is to give credence to all definitions of Europe. Although there is a predominant view of what the border between Europe and Asia is (the one shown by the white/grey contrast on the map) it is not exactly clear cut. Thus for countries which cross that undefined border between Europe and Asia, the font is blue to hopefully enlighten the reader of this. Colouring France, Spain, the Netherlands, and Denmark in blue two would most likely simply confuse the reader, as they would be wondering where on that map they cross a border. In the end there's only so much a map can do without accompanying text, which is why we have the Boundaries between continents and List of transcontinental countries to explain further in addition to the definition section on this page. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"The border between Asia and Europe isn't based on any geographic reasoning". You can't really say that. Geographical features are used to draw the border, they are just not uniquely defined in some areas.
Otherwise, I agree with Chipmunkdavis' argumentation for not including Spain and France in this list at the moment. I see that technically, it would be correct to include them. The Gibraltar straight is a well-known, unique geographical border, and Spain has territories across it. So, I would not exclude this option for all times. However, I think we should not be the first ones here on Wikipedia to proof a point, if it is not proven elsewhere. Finding evidence of the kind that Chip has mentioned (e.g., Spain appears in a list on African countries) would be a good starting point to give momentum here.
As an aside, the Azerbaijan presenter at the Eurovision Song Contest hailed, according to herself (!), from Asia, which was a very big surprise for me. Tomeasy T C 04:46, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the existing note about France having politically integrated overseas territories is sufficient. I suppose a similar note could be provided for the map, though I don't personally think it is necessary. As for Spain, I'm not sure that Ceuta and Melilla can be counted as part of Spain (since 1995), even if they are Spanish territory. --Boson (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ceuta and Melilla are full parts of Spain, as are the Canary Islands and the Plazas de soberanía. Although not part of an autonomous community, they're a full part of the state. Even the parts of France that are not under full metropolitan law are noted as integral parts of the French Republic by the French government and constitution. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Border between Europe and Asia lies acros the Bosforo Strait. So Turkey is partially in Europe, which means Turkey is not a European Country, only the marginal area of that country must be considered European, reporting over 70000000 of people as european is complitely fake. Turkey must be deleted from any european list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 (talk) 04:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Europe is secular

First of all, Europe specifically excludes the United States.

Also, Europe is primarily secular. Hare Krishna, Christianity and Scientology are a Johnny come lately fad in Europe. There are religions that are more European and have therefore been around much longer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.40.45.183 (talk) 21:28, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

TURKEY IS NOT A EUROPEAN COUNTRY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east EUROPE IS NOT MIDDLE EAST. TURKEY MUST DELETED FROM THE ARTICLE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.105.115 (talk) 15:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Part of Turkey (East Thrace) lies in Europe, including Istanbul. Subtropical-man (talk) 15:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sub tropical, your name just show your knoledge and concern to Europe: Part of France lies in Africa, South America, Asia, Oceania well France is a South American, Asian, African, Oceanian country an not a European country if Turkey is European. Reunion lies in Africa, French Guayana lies in South America, New Caledonia lies in Oceania. SO FRANCE IS NOT EUROPEAN COUNTRY AS TURKEY IS EUROPEAN!!!!THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUS, ISN'T IT? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 (talk) 03:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Population of European Turkey: 71,517,100, Area :783,562 km²?????????????? Turkey is not Europe. EUROPE IS NOT TURKEY. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THEY HANDLED BRAINS?WERE AT THE TOILET?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population this article in Wikipedia shows that European Turkish population is just about 10000000.

Greenland is in Europe

Greenland is in Europe. It stands tall against cocacolonization and will never surrender to the United States occupying forces. It stands alongside Denmark and others as a European country. It is the diamond on Europe's crown. United States Zero. It is official. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.167.68.107 (talk) 17:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Greenland is a danish oversees territory and it is a part of the North American continent. Grennland is not a European terrotiry as Reunion is not a Europena territory, it belongs to France but it lies in Africa. Turkey is an Asian COuntry wich lies only in a small part in Europe, which doesn't make Turkey a European country, Turkey must be deleted from any European list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 (talk) 04:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Newly added table on provinces, etc, in Political geography

A new table was added by ClungeLover69 (talk · contribs) to the Political geography section. Since it seemed to be largely unsourced WP:OR, I reverted it to allow for discussion here per WP:BRD. I didn't look at each entry in detail; however, I could see no particular reason for including Bavaria, Brittany or for placing a French flag next to Catalonia. The table seemed to be potentially contentious. Its inclusion would just create instability because of the lack of sources and the arbitrariness of the entries. Mathsci (talk) 17:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, the list added had too many issues as it was introduced. Moreover, I cannot imagine that it will possible at all to agree on universal criteria for in- and exclusion of items on this list. Tomeasy T C 20:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Arbitrary inclusion criteria, with no apparent solution. I was surpised when it popped up.DLinth (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Land use map

The land use map seems completely wrong. According to this map, there is almost no forest in mainland Europe while Scandinavia is almost 100% forested. The description of the meaning of colours is incoplete. Markoeltermann (talk) 18:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's all correct. Mainland Europe has few contiguous forest areas left that are large enough to show. Scandinavia is shown as mostly forested (true), with, as you head NW toward the oceans, first a strip of mostly pasture land and then a strip of tundra-bogs. You are correct....that last category was omitted from the caption; just added it back in.DLinth (talk) 20:07, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ a b Madisson, Angus (2009). [http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_09-2008.xls Statistics on World Population, GDP and Per Capita GDP, 1-2006 AD].
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