Talk:Allan Holdsworth

Untitled

The vocabulary in this article is, at times, hideous. See the "remark" for the None Too Soon album-"syncopated" time signatures? A time signature merely dictates the number of beats per measure, which does not affect the use of syncopation within the piece. Not to mention that the idea of "remarks" per album seems flawed-who are the remarks from? Is there a running theme throughout the "remarks"? Do the "remarks" serve as background information for each album, or whatever the writer feels like pointing out? I would strongly consider removing the remarks entirely, as they are irrelevant and inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. -ELPsteel

I'm not sure that the introductory paragraph complies with wikipedia's neutral point of view. i've read countless articles on allan, but can't recall comparions to lizst (sources, please?). "lauded for peerless technique", "unique efficiency", that sort of thing. i'm as big a fan of allan as anyone, but i don't really think this introduction describes allan in a fitting way, especially for an encyclopedic entry. Pstornes 23:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the caption for the image is incorrect. It should in fact read:

"Allan Holdsworth, The Genius and His SynthAxe"

because the picture shows Allan playing his SynthAxe controller.

Why don't you edit it then? --Lambyuk 00:47, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

As a newbie I was a little careful about editing stuff.

Don't worry about it! Welcome to Wikipedia... --Lambyuk 02:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

rofl

"Allan Holdsworth ranks with Jeff Beck, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Edward van Halen and John McLaughlin as one of the most sig....."

why don't you guys just go ahead and include all possible guitar players? I'm deleting this 61.12.39.75 04:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

i knd of whonder y there are no pictures of the man on the this page on wiki.

apparently, images without copyright notices will be deleted. Pstornes 23:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC) You guys failed to metion thatAlan Holdsworth is God

Allan Holdsworth and Eric Clapped-out in the same sentence? PLEASE!!!! Neilsworld

Allan Holdsworth is better than all of those guitarists. Tons better. - xtheblademaster —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.173.149.57 (talk) 03:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

"big figure"? lol, c'mon, try leading figure.

"big figure" doesn't seem to do Allan's contributions to the genre much justice. I updated this. Also, I added a "Holdsworth Today" and "Holdsworth's fans" section (the latter is long overdue, I think).

this article is rampant in WP:NPOV vio's. Also, new sections lacked citations (see WP:CITE) and read more like "original research" (see WP:NOR). It's overdue for a cleanup as, for now, it's fancruft and far from encyclopedic. 216.21.150.44 01:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I submit to you that the new sections meet the requirements on the grounds that there are indeed "written or recorded records of field observations" for many of Allan's concerts that back up what I wrote, both in terms of his tour/band info and fan base. It's very difficult to grab a citation when this particular artist gets so little (if any) media coverage (in all media).

Furthermore, Wikipedia states:

"No original research" does not prohibit experts on a specific topic from adding their knowledge to Wikipedia."

[I consider myself an expert on Allan Holdsworth.]

"It does, however, prohibit expert editors from drawing on their personal and direct knowledge if such knowledge is unverifiable."

[My simple entries under "Holdsworth today" and "Holdsworth's fans" are verifiable; editing it out without first challenging the author (me) for verifiability is arrogant and heavy handed.]

"Wikipedia welcomes the contributions of experts, as long as these contributions come from verifiable (i.e. published) sources."

[Allan's tour schedule has been published on his web site, and in records online and elsewhere. His fan base, collectively, can be surmised and characterized from Allan's therealallanholdsworth.com's forum section, where many of them hang out.]

"Thus, if an editor has published the results of his or her research elsewhere, in a reputable publication, then the editor may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy."

This clause to me seems biased towards artists that get covered in "reputable publications". While Allan does, from time to time, get some light coverage in a few magazines, it's usually few and far between, and spotty. On top of that, many of the published articles tend to be interviews or discussions, rarely going into much detail outside well established parameters of equipment, current or upcoming release and tour. There have been exceptions, unfortunately, I don't see any content from these evident in this entry for Holdsworth.

Besides, the article is in-line and consitent with the stylistic treatement given many other artist's entries in Wikipedia. This isn't a science (i.e. authoring an article about a musical artist), nobody wrote "he's the best, the rest suck" type thing. So, I'm not sure what other choices there are besides facts written by fans and facts written by critics. This isn't the mating ritual of Alaskan seal or quantum phyiscs; it's art and it's the man behind the art. If you think it's rampant with NPOV vios, why not do the readers a courtesy & state where they are, or better yet, FIX IT. --208.115.202.63 05:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

...a "start class" rating, how helpful...

Now if only they'd actually improve it...

---

== Someone Take An Axe To Some of This Junk

A couple of points. When is someone going to get rid of the daft Liszt quote. Reviewers are some of the most musically ignorant people around. You might as well compare him to Lou Reed and someone hammering in a nail if you're not going to justify your comment and/or support it with evidence. The 'piano-like' and 'clarinet-like' descriptions are also subjective and should be excised forthwith. A 'keyboard-like' reference would be okay, because it's obvious and a comparison worth making. But as for the others, you might as well say 'I hear a Mexican washboard' like the 'I'm getting just a flutter of burnt strawberries' when someone drinks a glass of wine. Aural palette and all that. Further, the 'recommended recording' sentence please get felled like an axe? So we're allowed to raid music articles on Wikipedia saying 'the best album is...' all of a sudden? That whole end paragraph should go. As far as I'm concerned (and I too am 'an Allan Holdsworth expert' if the above person is) all of his work is his best work, period.

Re. the above, why doesn't someone paraphrase more of the encomia of praise on the Against The Clock liner notes? Bruford, eg, cites Allan's solo on UK's In The Dead of Night as just about a perfect example of its type. Now no-one should argue with him, man.

So can someone please get brave and sort this out? I would but I'm just too busy.

88.111.134.188 16:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree...

I wish this self anointed Wiki guitar police force were a little more even handed with all the stuff they decide to stomp out (while letting in the subjective quote about Liszt). Actually, I'm fairly certain I know exactly where that comparison came from and who first muttered it on the AH forum.

I took the time to put other factually based info on this page, which the self-anointed in-charge erased, a lot of it readily verifiable information. Sickening to think a great resource like this Wikipedia so limits an artist (like Allan) from getting a better page because of a few people - none of whom I'm guessing possess the decades of insider info and knowledge on AH that I and dozens of other people from his forum could detail here

...I'm guessing a bunch of 20 somethings with a recently beefed up vocabulary (e.g. NPOV) and a shiny virtual junior Wikipedia G-man badge. What a shame. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chrism07924 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Zappa McLaughlin

I've heard it said that both Zappa and McLaughlin have referred to Holdsworth as 1 of the most important and innovative guitarists on the planet. I'm sure I just broke most of the rules of Wikkipedia by saying so. I can't even remember where I learned that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thaddeus Slamp (talk • contribs) 03:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC).Thaddeus Slamp 03:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Allan Holdsworth experts who doesn't have Reaching For The Uncommon Chord, a music book by Allan Holdsworth that states on the back "He's the best in my book" -Eddie Van Halen. If Eddie says he's the best, he's the best. I've read his material, not only heardit. And don't worry if he's not that famous now, he'll be like Van Gogh: he'll be remembered as the best when he's dead and gone. He does freaking 64th notes for crying out loud. And he tried to reproduce a saxophone sound, he said it in an interview. woulldn't that make more sense, seming that he wanted to play saxophone? I repeat, Allan Holdsworth is GOD (and Van Halen is Buddha). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.5.81 (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think Holdsworth sucks. Boring monotonous unfeeling mastibatory wankery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.169.18 (talk) 01:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

We get it, you don't like Holdsworth. But many people (including me) disagree. Not to say that I enjoy all of his albums, but I always enjoy Wardenclyffe Tower.

I think the op (I mean the guy who made the God / Buddha analogy) is greatly overstating their point, (at least in the sense that Holdsworth should not be endlessly noted for his technique, it's not important -- he is quite an emotional guitar player and his technique is a means to that end) for what it's worth.

There's no need to use such an uncivil tone, either, it's just flamebait. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.74.5 (talk) 08:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Terrible article

I cut all the stuff that struck me as just embarrassingly amateurish. I also cut the quote from an internet site at the top of the second paragraph about what a wizard Holdsworth is, because a very brief search revealed that the entire article was in the fact the official bio from Holdsworth's own site. If anyone wants to find more testimonials from major players, go ahead. I didn't include any negative criticism because he's not all that controversial - people seem either to love him or to find him technically able but boring. It's not like Derek Bailey, who some people think can't play at all. Lexo (talk) 13:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

References

If this article is in need of citations, which to me does seem to be the case, I'd like to suggest two sources. The first is a collection of transcribed interviews, mostly from reputable sources (although, to what extent guitar mags are at all reputable is another matter!). I did all these transcriptions myself, and I've proofread them as best as I could:

http://home.no.net/pstornes/ah/home.html

The second source contains a lot of the same material the first link, with additional material added:

http://ofeuillerat.free.fr/

Kind regards, Pstornes (talk) 18:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Playing style section needs improvment

The "playing style" section really does not say much about Allan's playing style. Allan's playing style IS unique, and there should be plenty evidence to support it in the list of links I provided in the "References" section. First of all, lumping him in the "fusion" or "jazzrock" category is much too general. Next, there is no doubt that he premiered unique playing styles and techniques that have been widely copied (which is worth its own section actually). Perhaps the most widely recognized aspect of his playing is his legato technique for soloing. Although guitarists had dabbled with this technique, and used it as part of their creative arsenal before, Holdsworth was the first guitarist to base his entire playing style on legato. Holdsworth built this style from the ground up: He developed left-hand fingerings of scales that facilitated legato playing, he does in fact not use traditional "pull-offs", (because he dislikes the detuning when you pull the string) but rather does it all by by a very complex system of left-hand hammerons. He uses his right hand merely to set the string in motion, and practiced controlling the dynamics of hammered notes and plucked ones to the extent that you can hardly tell which is which. And that's just for his lead playing. His chordal approach was also quite unique among guitarists in his time. I don't have time to get into this right now.

Then there is the issue of how he modified his gear to achieve his sound. His guitars are highly customized, as are his amps. I dare say no guitarist ever sounded like Holdsworth the way he did on "Tempest", which is often regarded as his first greater exposure.

Then there is the issue of his composition and improvisation. These are also parts of his style that came out of very deep research and woodshedding, and contain many unique aspects.

Various aspects of his style have been very widely copied.

You might think that what I've written here is very POV, but almost every article I've read on Allan supports these observations, and if I only had the time, I would reference every single claim. If someone feels like reading through every single article in the references I posted, go ahead... It's a shame that so little of this is written into the article, because the article gives very little insight into the many unique aspects of Allan's artistry.Pstornes (talk) 18:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

pathetic ...

Allan's page on Wiki, the one place you'd think a novice interested in learning about Allan could go to for an education, looks like someone wrote a few paragraphs on the back of a cocktail napkin. Where's the beef? 72.88.216.163 (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite and techniques expanded upon

In the wee hours of the morning, I did my best to rewrite the entire article to the best of my ability. I've tried to remove any obvious POV, and only include what can either be referenced or that of which is factual. Also, the numerous album pages that I've created have been linked to (The Things You See will be made shortly, as I just physically received the disc and booklet), but PLEASE do not attempt to reintroduce Velvet Darkness anywhere within his discography section, because that is against WP:Project Discographies guidelines. I believe it is sufficient enough to have included a link to it within the main article itself, together with a brief description of what went on with that album, but any other mention of it should not be made. Also, I simply HAD to remove the ridiculously worded table format for his discography, because none of it was needed and it read like a mini review half the time. Hopefully nobody will be stupid enough to add it back.

I did the original table, as it was the norm for many Wikipedia discographies at the time. That was several years ago (2005), and Wikipedia's standards have improved greatly since then. I have no problem with it being replaced, though some of the literary or contemporary references I'd originally included in it could probably go back on the individual albums page (e.g., Atavachron and All Our Yesterdays being titled after the Star Trek episode; Tesla's Wardenclyffe Tower), but I'm not that picky (nor do I have the time to do it myself). I did understand that others had subsequently populated it with editorical/critical opinions that had to go, but that's the nature of this place, isn't it. No worries and nice job on the update. About the only thing I'd add to the discography is the list of videos/dvds he's done, but again I don't have the time to write it up now. Acroyear (talk) 22:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Just noting that these tidbits you've mentioned have been added to the individual album pages concerned, as per your advice. Mac dreamstate (talk) 20:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

For the Techniques section, I threw in a short but reasonably informative—and at best NPOV—paragraph on his most renowned stuff, but if anyone wants to have a go at detailing his equipment, all your information can be found here: [1]. Let's keep it going and give this man the recognition he so richly deserves! Mac dreamstate (talk) 13:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the mass of edits!

That's what one gets for digging up source after source late at night and in the early morning, only to realise stuff went wrong and even more sources can be found... It's a never-ending quest, eh? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

allan holdsworth discography

Looking for guidelines for this discography. 1. The album/CD IOU live. basically i have a copy of this sitting on my shelf as have many Holdsworth fans. It is listed on many music websites including Amazon.co.uk, amazon.com, audiophile imports etc. The album keeps being removed from the discography list. On the official Allan Holdsworth site Allan regards it as a bootleg. If we delete this album then several others have to go by using this criteria.

The concert was originally a japanese TV broadcast, which was released as a laserdisk, the lead singer of the group then issued a CD version (edited) of the concert in 1993. It has been re issued "officially" several times since. Holdsworth being a "small fry" in the music bizz cannot afford expensive legal fees to have this and some other albums removed from circulation.

There are several other recordings of Allan which he regards as "not being official" but have a widespread official release in japan and the UK, USA and europe. Holdsworth gains no royalties from these recordings so considers them as pirate. If these recordings are easily available in genuine shops and web shops how can we consider them as unnofficial? If we delete them from Wiki then this surely is not an accurate discography.

I am a long time fan and have a lot of knowledge of this artist and have not included known bootlegs in the discography of which many hundred are in circulation and which are of various dubious quality. My amendments have been to officially released albums (you can buy from officially credited shops/eshops)

There are about 40 + compilation albums including tracks by this artist which i have refrained from including because the majority of the tracks are on the main core of solo albums and artist albums he appears on.

Would it be credible to have a different section comprising compilations so visitors can differentiate between these and the main core of albums/work?

And for any potentially interested fan they do not become confused and go out and buy a whole stream of albums which comprise tracks listed several times on various compilations? Some of the same tracks can appear on up to half a dozen different compilations over several years.

There are a lot of gray areas in this discography, if we stik to black and white entries its going to look inane, especially to fans of said artist and ignore their knowledge.

For heavens sake

Allan NEVER brewed his own beer, why does wikipedia insist on stating false facts? His studio was called the brewery, but thats as close as he ever came to brewing beer himself. He did create a product called the fizz buster to allow British handpumps to be connected to American kegs. Get your facts straight PLEASE

72.192.181.2 (talk) 19:18, 25 December 2009 (UTC)SH

It is not Wikipedia who is stating that he brewed his own beer—rather, it is Holdsworth himself who has stated the beer-brewing through means of numerous interviews he has given; all of which are cited on the article (and sourced from reliable locations such as his own website). Therefore, how can this fact be disputed when he has gone so far as to explicitly say that he brewed his own beer? And yes, we do realise the difference between that and the studio named The Brewery. Those are also separate things that he has mentioned many times within interviews. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Holdsworth and instrumental rock

As with Frank Gambale's article, in a short space of time there has been a considerable amount of edit warring with regards to the genres Holdsworth has played. Whilst to some it may seem odd that instrumental rock has, at least until now, firmly been included within his list of genres alongside his primary jazz fusion, it would pay to bear in mind that many 'pure' fusion albums of yesteryear are now labelled as instrumental rock as well. Examples include Jeff Beck's Blow by Blow and Wired, the bulk of the Mahavishnu Orchestra's work, and even the iconic Dick Dale (of "Misirlou" fame). All are considered to have played instrumental rock which, at its most basic level, is a rock-based style with few vocals. The guitar does not have to be 'heavy', and elements of jazz can often be heard as well within the context.

Therefore, considering the fast-paced and 'heavy' stylings of various Holdsworth albums such as Heavy Machinery and the intro to "Metal Fatigue", it can safely be said that he has not been locked solely into jazz fusion throughout his four-decade career. To say so would be simply false. As a concrete example, even in his brief time with Level 42 he adopted a more straightforward rock-based style. And finally, if one takes a look at the bio section of Holdworth's website, a statement that reads "he participated in many of that era's landmark jazz-fusion and instrumental rock recordings" should say enough to acknowledge that he has played in this style.

He plays jazz fusion now, but he has played instrumental rock as well. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily go by something on his own website. I'm a bit more comfortable with "instrumental rock" than saying he's "primarily known" for his work in jazz-rock fusion, which isn't confirmable. Allan Holdsworth attained his first major notice by playing in Tony Williams Lifetime, but the bands of his journeyman days: Igginbottom, Tempest, Soft Machine, Gong, Bruford, UK ("jazzy" though they can be at times) are progressive rock bands, not Miles alumni jazz-rock fusion. There's a world of difference between Allan Holdsworth and, e.g., John McLaughlin.

That said, Holdsworth's one of the very few metal guitarists's heroes totally comfortable in a jazz idiom; obviously, e.g. his albums with Gordon Beck are straight-ahead jazz / jazz rock. It's that his self-taught harmonic conception, his way of shaping scales to solo with around the chords he uses, has very little in common with guitarists associated with jazz-rock like (again, e.g.) Mike Stern, John Scofield, John Abercrombie or Pat Metheny (or Jeff Beck, for that matter).

"Instrumental rock," though, would be a sadly typical Wikipedia-ism — a descriptor so vague and devoid of content that nobody could muster an objection to flag it. "Instrumental rock" like Dick Dale's Top-40 hit "Misirlou" — you're kidding, right? Holdsworth's never had anything like a radio hit, even in "the Great White Hope of British progrock" UK, even his stuff with Level 42. Holdsworth's first self-led band, I.O.U., had several vocalists (Paul Williams, Paul Korda, Jack Bruce), as does his albums Atavachron, Secrets (Rowanne Mark) and Wardenclyffe Tower (Naomi Star).

Are vocals the point in Allan Holdsworth's ouevre? No. But lumping his unfailingly exploratory music in with the likes of Pipeline and Telstar certainly shouldn't be, either — no mater how allegic his own website is to the only descriptor that does the whole of his music justice: jazz-influenced progressive rock.

In broad outline, the same career trajectory as Soft Machine.

Snardbafulator (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

"it would pay to bear in mind that many 'pure' fusion albums of yesteryear are now labelled as instrumental rock as well." by whom? are there published RS cites to support that assertion? I would be interested in seeing them. Mahavishnu, for example, consisted of players notable for their jazz musicianship, but they were drawing on a range of influences, of which one was rock, hence the labels fusion, jazz fusion, and least favourably, jazz rock. --188.223.6.168 (talk) 01:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)