Talk:27 Club

This article was nominated for deletion on 27 June, 2007. The result of the discussion was Delete, overturned to a Keep at DRV on 6 July 2007.

Popular culture (inactive)

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Nat Jaffe

Jaffe was a swing pianist like Earl Hines, not a "blues musician"

Deletion discussion

Deletion log here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/27_Club

It was deleted because "The keep arguments have not been able to rebuttal [sic] the WP:NEO arguments appropriately".

However, while several (apparently "inappropriate") arguments were made as to why it is NOT a neologism, NONE were offered as to why it IS a neologism. You can't be expected to refute something adequately if it hasn't been explained adequately.

The discussion did NOT end in a consensus. If you know how, please restore the page and let its deletion discussion continue until a consensus is reached, or at least until somebody explains why it breaches WP:NEO. It doesn't seem to breach it to me; it has many secondary sources... most of the people who called it a neologism did so when it only had a few sources, so several more were added to refute this.

Besides; innocent until proven guilty right? If it's going to be deleted under WP:NEO, someone has to jolly well explain why it breaches WP:NEO!

I'm right and you're wrong 11:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Leslie Harvey

According to The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll author Eric Segalstad, Leslie Harvey was not a 27. Segalstad acquired a copy of his death certificate, and according to the date of birth on it he was actually 26. So he should be removed from the list. EzraZebra (talk) 21:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article was deleted, then restored as the result of deletion review on 6 July 2007

(See the pointer to the AfD debate at the top of this page). Older comments left on this Talk page are still in the history, if anyone wants to bring them back. EdJohnston 21:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Add pictures?

I'm not very good with adding pictures, nor knowledgeable in copyright issues, so could someone familiar with all the copyright issues find one of the 27 club posters in a low resolution and meeting the copyright criteria, so it can be added to the main page? I'm hoping some pictures can back-up that the 27 club isn't some newly spawned idea. CherryFlavoredAntacid 22:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Additions of 27 club members

Viktor Tsoi (Viktor Robertovich Tsoi (Russian: Ви́ктор Ро́бертович Цой [sometimes transliterated as Zoy]; 21 June 1962, Leningrad, USSR – 15 August 1990, Tukums, Latvian SSR, USSR) was a Russian rock musician, leader of the band Kino. He is regarded as one of the pioneers of Russian rock and has many devoted fans across the countries of the former Soviet Union even today. Few musicians in the history of Russian music have been more popular or have had more impact on their genre than Viktor Tsoi and his rock band Kino. Tsoi contributed a plethora of musical and artistic works, including ten albums. He died in a car accident on August 15, 1990, less that two month withing turning age 28. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.175.102.98 (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've been noticing alot of people have been adding lesser known musicians who died at the age of 27 to the table. I believe it may be getting a little out of hand, as the table is not meant for every musician who died at 27. Only the widely known members. (Jones, Cobain, Morrison, Hendrix, and Joplin) While I'm not saying these other musicians are not members of the 27 club, earlier versions of this article included a full list of musicians who died at 27, and it was rather long, and a bit messy looking, due to the sheer mass, and the fact that many of the musicians weren't widely known. Perhaps we should keep this article to just the prominant members, so this doesn't look like a trivia page? CherryFlavoredAntacid 18:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody who isn't on List of famous people who died young Zazaban 23:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If your next-door neighbor's garage band loses its bass player at 27, you should NOT add it to the list. However, if the individual already has a pre-existing page on Wikipedia, I think it's fair to add him or her. The fact that someone had a page on Wikipedia prior to being added to the list illustrates that they are somewhat "well known." Moreover, I found the 'less-prominent' and 'near miss' lists to be fascinating, giving more credit to the 27 Club. I say restore them all!

...and by "page" I mean a Wikipedia article.

Amy Winehouse on July 23 has officially joined the 27 club — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.0.194.46 (talk) 17:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandre Levy founding member was taken out! Somebody put him in again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osinistron (talk • contribs) 21:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is a mess

As I feared would happen, this article is falling apart and turning into listcruft. The sources I cited for "The 27 Club" being used as a phrase to group *some* of these musicians together name Jones, Joplin, Hendrix, Morrison and Cobain. That's pretty much it. No value judgement on the worth of any of the others, the fame of the others, the talent of the others; that's just who the sources name. Some of the sources mention that there's generally a statistical spike among 27 year old artists and musicians, but any others are rarely named, let alone focused on.

There are no statistics in the reference/footnote of the statement to verify in fact any statistical spike exists- "Some of the sources mention that there's generally a statistical spike among 27 year old artists and musicians, but any others are rarely named, let alone focused on."

What we have now is OR listcruft that is no longer supported by the sources I added. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It includes, and only includes Musicians listed on the List of famous people who died young. Zazaban 05:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The table is for the prominent members. The ones commonly used in conjuction with The 27 Club. Not every musician who died at the age of 27. Whether they're on a list of famous people or not, that doesn't make them commonly associated with The 27 Club. CherryFlavoredAntacid 17:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nowhere does it say "prominent". If this is a requirment please say so in the main article and elaborate on what being "prominent" implies. Zazaban 17:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, my bad. It used to say that, until someone edited it out. You can see that in it's history The original term was "the most commonly accepted grouping" Meaning Jones, Joplin, Hendrix, Cobain, and Morrison. They can be defined as "the most commonly accepted grouping" as all (except for Jones) are in a number of 27 Club, Forever 27 and similarly titled shirts, posters, and art. Jones is included in most of them, but not all. A poster including all of them, A poster including all but Jones, A shirt including all of them Johnson, Belvin, McKernan, Alexander, Ham, Bell, Boon and Pfaff are on no such merchandising. They did die at 27, sure, but they're not commonly refered to in conjuction with The 27 Club. As I stated before, in the past, this article included a very long list of many musicians who died at 27. The list was long, messy, and made The 27 Club more of a listcruft than an article. We're trying to prove that the 27 Club is not a neologism (the reason for it's recent deletion), and is, in fact, a real and commonly used term. We need to keep this article clean and encylopedic or it may face deletion yet again. CherryFlavoredAntacid 18:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. If we can't keep this to the short version I sourced, it deserves to be deleted as unencyclopedic. I wouldn't be opposed to taking th version I did and, in the "Inclusion of less prominent members" section, naming some of the others people try to add to the list, wiki-linked to their articles and the List of famous people who died young. But putting others in the table negates the reasons this was saved. If that continues I'll put it up for deletion this time. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, Zazaban, the links you keep deleting go to sourcing. They are examples of the use of "The 27 Club" to link this group of people. They are among the only things here that keep this from being OR. Your edit summary was odd, saying it's "not about the 27 Club"... um, yes it is. This article is for documenting exactly that, not doing OR on a list of people. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then they should be incorperated as references and not external links. Zazaban 19:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of having two lists of "club members", one list in the main section of the article for the five or six "main" ones and another list in the "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" section. Both groups are part of this pop culture phenomenon, but the main group is the one most often talked about or depicted. — Mudwater 00:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AMY WINEHOUSE!!!!!!

Inclusion of less-prominent musicians

There has been some debate about whether or not the less prominent members of the 27 Club should be included in the article -- see "Additions of 27 club members" and "This is a mess" above. On the one hand, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Brian Jones are the ones most often mentioned, and depicted in artwork. On the other hand, other famous musicians dying at age 27 definitely seems to be a part of the pop culture phenomenon that is the 27 Club. So, as I stated before, I really think the best compromise is to have two separate lists in the article. I'm going to go ahead and put the less famous musicians back into the article, but in a separate list, in the "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" section. It will still be necessary to "patrol" this second list, to make sure that non-notable musicians are not added. — Mudwater 00:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A pop-culture phenomenon or a statistical quirk? The real phenomenon is that lots of greater and lesser musicians have died young ... bad choices or bad luck ... or bad company. (What really happened to Bobby Fuller?) Hundreds and hundreds of dead young musicians. Pick another age, you can find a few - or more? This man's opinion is that the subject might better be explored in an article about "musicians who died young." The age of 27 is either coincidental or a mean or medium or something. Coping with the pressures of celebrity? Twang (talk) 22:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm creating a huge list of musicians elsewhere (in my blog, I can link it in this discussion if someone is interested), that have suffered a premature dead. I've faced a dilemma that how can you determine when a musician have died significantly young? Other problem is that when is a person sort of legendary enough to be listed in that kind of list? What's young enough and should the person have been died before year 1995 to have one's memory been glorified enough? Like, having gained enough "legendariness." Anyhow, I'd accept an article like "List of musicians that have died young" like someone had obviously did, but which has been removed. On the other hand I understand that people want to draw clear lines between the original 27 club and all the other people - had they died at the age of 27 or not. Perhaps that phenomenom shouldn't be enlarged like I'm currently doing in my blog, but apparently I'm not the only person who finds these destinies fascinating altogether. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SerpentChimera (talk • contribs) 13:43, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking of a deletion review here

I feel the topic truly is notable, and was considering a deletion review myself. Good work!--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 19:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Johnson

He isn't very well-known, but his place on the list, or at least the description next to his name, doesn't do him justice. He's the grandfather of rock & roll and influenced far more artists than simply Jimi Hendrix, Keith Richards, and Eric Clapton. Furthermore, he is most notable not only because he influenced future musicians, but because he was a true genius; he changed music history. Cami Solomon 02:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Robert Johnson was a musical genius and highly influential on rock music. If you think you can improve his "fame" blurb, while still keeping the explanation to just a few words long, like it is for the other musicians, I'd say go for it. But, because the article is about the 27 Club, and not about who's a genius or important, Johnson should stay in the second group. See "This is a mess" and "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" above. — Mudwater 00:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If he had died after 1969 he probably would have been included. --Jagz 03:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True. He does "deserve" to be included because he influenced most of the other artists on the list (at least indirectly), but remember that this article was only allowed to stay in existence on the basis of the t-shirts and other references, none of which seem to included Johnson on the core list. Anyway, I editted his description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.68.106 (talk) 03:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you're not going to include Robert Johnson, you shouldn't include any of them. Those of us who actually know a thing or two about music know who the fuck Robert Johnson is.

I couldn't agree more, as usual, most people never go back to the roots of something, there wouldn't be a Hendrix without Robert Johnson... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.204.66.6 (talk) 23:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Johnson shouldn't be limited to "Bluesman". Although the blues recordings are what he is known for, he played other styles too. Like every other musician of the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TolarisTango (talk • contribs) 02:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Casey Calvert

R.I.P. Casey Calvert, who passed away recently at the age of 26. Too soon, for such a talented and popular musician. And also too soon for inclusion in this article. This, according to these stories on the MTV, AOL Music, and Cleveland Leader web sites. — Mudwater 23:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Richey James Edwards

He went missing at 27 - born in the same year as Kurt Cobain and died the year after. Hasn't been pronounced dead, so not quite appropriate for inclusion, but worth noting nonetheless.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 12:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Richey James was declared legally dead in November 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.88.184 (talk) 15:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tupac Shakur

I think that Tupac Shakur should be on the 27 list, he died at age 27 and is one of the most influential artists of the 90s and the history of his music genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.143.238 (talk) 05:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tupac Shakur was 25 when he died. — Mudwater 12:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2Pac aint' dead mayn Zerocannon (talk) 05:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Near misses

I would like to suggest the removal of a new section that was recently added to the article -- "Other well-known musicians who died within 1 month of the 27 club". These musicians are not one of the five who are the main members of the 27 club, and, since they were not 27 when they died, they are not "auxiliary" club members either, so, I think they should not be listed. Also, where do you draw the line? Why not those who missed it by two months, or a year? — Mudwater^(Talk) 00:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's been 8 days and no one has said anything about this, so I'm going to delete the section. — Mudwater^(Talk) 23:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Terry Kath

Terry Kath was 31 when he died, he shouldn't be included on this list, whether it is restricted to the main five or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.191.56.226 (talk) 05:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed his entry from the list. — Mudwater^(Talk) 10:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kurt Cobain's age

Why is Cobain even in this list he was not 27? just because he would have turned 27 a month or so after his death is no reason to include him. If he wanted to be in the 27 club as his sister stated he should have waited a couple of months to kill himself. Just because the current generation wants a cult icon like the original 4 is no reason to include him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.161.217 (talk) 23:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kurt Cobain is in this list because (1) he was 27 years old when he died -- look it up -- and (2) he is generally included with Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison in the pop culture phenomenon that is the 27 Club. — Mudwater^(Talk) 00:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Da-da-de-da-da Code

The recent book The Da-da-de-da-da Code by Robert Rankin has, as a major plot element, the idea that Robert Johnson (and his infamous deal with the devil at the crossroads) is the source of the 27 Club (although he doesn't call it that).

“

Johnny Kidd, out of Johnny Kidd and the Pirates, Pig Pen out of the Grateful Dead, Brian Jones, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain—the list goes on. It is not a coincidence. You see, they all had one thing in common: they were all Robert Johnson fans.

”

I bring this up for two reasons (or maybe three). One, I think this suggests that the canonical list of five that the article currently features may not be as canonical as it suggests; two, Johnny Kidd should possibly be added to the article somewhere; and three, maybe, possibly this book should be mentioned somewhere in the article. But maybe not. :)

In re. my first point (that the "canonical five" are not as canonical as the article suggests), I checked most of the references in the article, and I found little or no evidence in any of them to suggest that these five really need to be singled out. They are probably the best known, but I saw nothing to suggest that there;s anything else which distinguishes them. I'd also like to see a citation for the claim "There is some debate as to the criterion used to include musicians who died at the age of 27 in the '27 Club'". Please note that Wikipedia debate doesn't count and shouldn't be mentioned in the article. :)

I'd try to fix it, but I don't want to trigger an edit war, and anyway, I don't have time right now, so I'm just tossing this all out for further discussion. I'll try to check back, but I'm on indefinite long-term wikibreak, so it may be a while. Xtifr _tälk 09:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Minor correction: Johnny Kidd was 31 when he died (at least according to Wikipedia, although that's not a reliable source), so Rankin got that wrong, and Kidd shouldn't be added. Sorry for the confusion. cheers, Xtifr _tälk 09:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Richey James Edwards

Disappeared at age 27. It is unknown whether he is dead or alive, but he at least deserves a mention. Zazaban (talk) 01:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

and is now dead officially, so he should be included in the list ^[1]--Soul Eater (talk) 17:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hawthorne Heights

I removed the section on the member of this band who passed. I apologize to fans of this band, but this is a list of "notable" musicians, not teeny bopper bands. Just because he was in the age range and died, doesn't make him or his passing "notable". If one of the Wiggles died, I doubt their death would be mentioned here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.205.240 (talk) 03:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't seem fair, regardless of their genre. In addition, if you've looked at the page recently, you'll notice that it is hardly comprised of notable musicians, for there are numerous obscure musicians from the early twentieth century that are included in this list as well.

They're only obscure if your knowledge of american music is sorely lacking. People still listen to their stuff... will anybody be listening to the crap you mention in 10 years?

Linda Jones

Linda Jones, who was Aretha Franklin's and Glady's Knight's inspiration needs to be put on this list.. Here's a link to one of her songs on youtube [1]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruth E (talk • contribs) 00:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Levi Kereama

I hardly think he should be added to this list, even the list of less prominent musicians. He was an Australian Idol contestant and released 3 top 40 singles that were rarely heard on radio, if at all. I don't think thats deserving of a mention, as he is hardly well-know, even in Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.67.161 (talk) 11:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not even sure that Levi Kareama was 27. I realize that some news reports indicated he was, but Australian news outlets The Daily Telegraph and Live Newslisted Kareama as 23 years old. Should he be removed from the list until we know for sure? Powsamurai (talk) 13:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Musicians who died at 26 or 28

Recently an editor deleted a section of this article, called "Notable musicians who died at the age 26 or 28". A similar section was removed in the past -- see #Near misses above. I'd like to reopen the discussion about this here on the talk page. So, do you think that this article should include a list of notable musicians who died at age 26 or age 28? Please post your opinion here so that we can establish more of a consensus. I'll start.

No. The article is about the 27 Club, which is really two things, both in the realm of popular culture -- a list of five famous musicians who died at age 27, and also the phenomenon of many other notable musicians having died at age 27. Therefore, notable musicians who died at the age or 26 or 28 are not part of this, and should not be included in the article. — Mudwater^(Talk) 18:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely not -- Whole article is superstititious nonsense of questionable notability to begin with, but a section on info that doesn't even meet the criteria for that superstition has no reason to be here. DreamGuy (talk) 21:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to ask a similar question, after seeing that Nick Drake had died at the age of 26. I dont think adding a section for those who died at 26 and 28 is too unspecific, so I'm for it. Sir Richardson (talk) 12:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As Am I: For The ages of 26 and 28 show the statistical increase of musicians that die at 27, which was listed in the article. ZenCopain (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, in the same way that we don't "helpfully" list Mexican and Canadian citizens at the bottom of any list of American citizens. (ESkog)^(Talk) 20:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No - I deleted it today. This article is about the 27 club, which is something that has been defined by reliable sources. Without a reliable source discussing a "correlation", any inclusion of "near misses" is synthesis at best. --Evb-wiki (talk) 03:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about musicians who die at the age of 8 or 64? Those are also perfect cubes, just like 27, and also count as "near misses"! - DavidWBrooks (talk) 22:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suicides should be taken off the list, any musician can kill themselves at 27 to secure some kind of recognition. Lesser known musicians should be taken off. Rappers should be taken off. They don't sing and are not considered musicians. Poets? ok, I'll buy that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.66.204 (talk) 02:59, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Grow up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.95.11 (talk) 12:23, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gram Parsons

Gram died at 27, under truely remarkable circumstances. Where is he in this list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.232.230 (talk) 01:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Gram Parsons article, he was 26.--Evb-wiki (talk) 01:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple issues?

The article is tagged for multiple issues. I propose that the tag be removed. (1) "It needs additional references or sources for verification." The article has 14 footnotes, 5 Reference section references, 1 book for further reading, and 4 external links -- more than sufficient for an article of this length. (2) "Its neutrality or factuality may be compromised by weasel words." As far as I can see, any potential weasel word candidates have references. (For example, "There is a common superstition among the stoner culture that...") (3) "It may require general cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards." The article looks good to me, I don't see a need for a general cleanup. For any of these points, if other editors think that there is an issue, please explain in this talk page section, or just go ahead and fix the article. Thanks — Mudwater^(Talk) 14:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's been ten days and no one has objected to this, so I'm removing the "Article issues" tag. Again, if anyone thinks the article should be tagged for any of these issues, please explain why in this talk page section. — Mudwater^(Talk) 12:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Official cause of death

There seems to be a lot of going back and forth as to whether causes of death should be listed as "official," to highlight that there are theories that something else happened, especially with Kurt Cobain and Brian Jones. I propose the column header to be "Official Cause of Death" rather than "Cause of Death," to avoid this in the future. EzraZebra (talk) 14:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "Official Cause of Death" is better, for the reason you give. — Mudwater^(Talk) 23:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced: non-notable?

Perhaps we should consider artists who do not have any notes or references in their or their band's/group's article as non-notable? It seems to me that anyone can quickly write an article about anyone so they appear notable. Currently, Alexandra and Rodrigo Bueno would be removed because of this. EzraZebra (talk) 15:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to go ahead and remove any artists whose articles are not supported by references. EzraZebra (talk) 20:21, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First table - sort by picture (???)

Hi. The first table contains a "Sort" control for all the columns. However, sort by picture doesn't make much sense. I would recommend allowing sort by Name, Date of death and Aged only. Agreed? Kvsh5 (talk) 04:57, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Controversies about their deaths

To what extent, if any, should this article mention or discuss controversial alternate ideas about the deaths of some of the musicians, especially Kurt Cobain? — Mudwater^(Talk) 16:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty frequently, this article is updated to mention controversial alternate ideas about how some of the musicians, especially Kurt Cobain, died. We've been pretty strict about removing those, on the basis that they are unproven rumors or fringe theories. The table of the five main musicians now says "official cause of death" rather than "cause of death", to emphasize that these are the official findings. On the other hand, the text in that section says, "With the exception of Joplin, there is controversy surrounding their deaths." (It should also be noted that some of the alternate ideas about Mr. Cobain's demise are potentially defamatory to a certain living person.)

I've started this discussion section to encourage editors to give their opinions about how strict we should be about this, and I've also created an RFC (Request For Comment). Should we leave things the way they are now? Or should we allow more leeway? For example, here is a previous version of the article that has links, from the table of the main five, to other Wikipedia articles that discuss the controversies about the deaths of Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, and Kurt Cobain. Would that be okay -- and potentially cut down on the number of "drive by" edits that the article gets? — Mudwater^(Talk) 16:26, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, that previous version of the article is perfectly acceptable. This article is about a popular culture phenomenon, as are the "fringe theories" mentioned. However, if we're going to be consistent, the expanded list should probably also be edited to add mention of any controversy there might be. EzraZebra (talk) 18:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that some mentioning of the controversies and/or fringe theories is acceptable, and I kind of like those links to other articles about them. But, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, the main emphasis should be on the official findings, and we should continue to undo edits that, for example, change the official cause of death for Kurt Cobain from "ruled as suicide by shotgun" to "murdered by [name of person]". — Mudwater^(Talk) 21:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A neutral article would include notable alternative ideas, one possible way woul be to send readers back to the main article where that information is detailed. Jnast1 (talk) 19:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For example , 'Having drowned in a swimming pool,^[2] the coroner's report stated "death by misadventure,"^[3] although other explanations were proffered.'

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

http://www.hyperionbooks.com/titlepage.asp?ISBN=0786884029
- In Heavier Than Heaven on 2011-03-24 00:21:18, 404 Not Found
- In Heavier Than Heaven on 2011-03-25 20:21:33, 404 Not Found
- In 27 Club on 2011-06-19 05:49:48, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 05:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kurt Cobain was removed

Kurt Cobain was removed from the main list. Fix please — Preceding unsigned comment added by UsernameTaken12345 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Amy Winehouse

Amy Winehouse has been added under the name Amy Whitehouse. She should not be part of the main list but should instead be part of the second list on the lower part of the page. Nuttster99 (talk) 16:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done — Mudwater^(Talk) 22:03, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stop putting Winehouse in the main group, she's an other artists at best. Not, and never will be, included in the main group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsmiddy (talk • contribs) 16:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC) It would be best for this page to be protected for the time being for this reason and the large number of joke edits being made about her. Tornado Maker (talk) 17:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Think page should be protected due to continued vandalism. Can't be bothered to keep reverting it. VampireKilla (talk) 18:02, 23 July 2011 (BST)

its gonna be an amy madhouse 69.159.25.11 (talk) 17:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on the issue of page protection. BekahTheAngel (talk) 17:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the issue of inexperienced editors messing up the layout is also affecting the quality of the article Tornado Maker (talk) 17:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Page needs to be protected ASAP Angryafghan (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People on Twitter are referring her as 'the new member of the 27 club'. You may not have liked her, but she was huge. If it's because he death wasn't in close proximity to the others, then Kurt Cobain shouldn't be included either. 92.6.85.174 (talk) 17:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Never will be" in the main club seems a very partial thing to say. The way music experts are talking about it now suggests she very much will be soon, but I agree that until the sources exist listing Amy as a signigicant "member" she should be in the second list. U-Mos (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The main list consists of artists who were hugely influential in the music industry and have had an ongoing effect on today's musicians, young and old. Amy does not fit this criteria, no matter how good you thought she was as an artist. Rest assured, she will be forgotten soon enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.136.32 (talk) 17:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think that you are a bit arrogant here? ARE YOU the one to judge how much influence a musician has? And is it now up to you to decide if somebody should be forgotten or not? No it's not. --95.88.156.189 (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Point is, the list is called "Musicians USUALLY included in the 27 Club", how could a person who just died be "usually" included in the list? 200.170.118.141 (talk) 17:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(After multiple edit conflicts) You cannot state a few hours after her body has been found during the news hype that she is already member of the club. This takes time. We are an encyclopaedia not the Daily Sun or a random Twitter account. Wkr, Fontes (talk) 17:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't get it. She was a member of this club even before her death, when everybody talked about whether she will join the club or not. She definitely was a great musical influence on music for the past 5 or 6 years and will probably still be an influential source for a long time. She's main list material. (GHA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.176.105.38 (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't like her as a musician, lol. And it is being reported as her joining the 27 club. Therefore, you're all being contrary for the sake of not ruining your precious Top 5. Whatever you think of her, she was a multi-award winning singer who did have a troubled life, but I remember everyone in that club first for their troubled lives and second for their music. Your criteria for who should be in there is, at best, illogical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.85.174 (talk) 17:35, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Like I stated bellow, we don't make the list we register it in the way it is most commonly known. The body isn't even stiff yet... Wkr, Fontes (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I know. And register it how it should be. See post at bottom. 92.6.85.174 (talk) 17:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the only reason she was huge was because of her permanent presence in the yellow press, not because of her music 79.248.224.136 (talk) 17:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's what you believe, all that matter is what reliable sources believe. U-Mos (talk) 17:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is my last edit on this matter. Look at the list of articles via Google news and then suggest she isn't being widely reported as such. And her album sales and recognition within the music industry suggests she wasn't just a transient career. Just because her private life was so openly discussed, doesn't detract from either her recognition or the fact that people are already noting this as a major addition to the 27 club. 92.6.85.174 (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So now that The Telegraph, The Wahington Post, Entertainment Weekly , TIME, Forbes and many others are reporting her as a member, at what point does Amy become a part of the "Musicians usually included in the 27 Club"?? LegoTrip (talk) 10:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, why is Amy Winehouse even mentioned here? The article says "rock musicans" Amy Winehouse hoewever performed Jazz R&B and Soul...even according to the wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Winehouse greets, GBK — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.236.34 (talk) 17:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's just take stock of WP:RECENTISM. If she's going to go down as part of the 27 club, it won't be long before that becomes apparent. For now it's second list material. End of discussion please? U-Mos (talk) 18:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

She should not be added, the Original 27 club was made of rock singers who died at 27 in a short period of time, they all were hugely influential on the music stage... Cobain was later added because Nirvana made a huge impact on the 90's and helped define a generation and a decade. Winehouse was famous yes, influential? no. and she wasn't even a rock singer. As someone said, rest assured she will be forgoten soon (just let a couple of weeks go and the initial twitter and sensationalist media hype about the 27club tone down). She barely had a #1 hit for that matter. There is a REASON every single artist who dies at 27 ISN'T included on the list therefore included on the secondary list. Yaddar 20:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If Robert Johnson doesn't make the main group, then Amy Winehouse CERTAINLY shouldn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.71.81.75 (talk) 20:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty sure Amy Whinehouse was more famous when she was alive than Kurt Cobain when he was. Maybe it is a bit premature to put her on the list just yet, but I guarantee that it won't take long until she is an obvious member, and will be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LegoTrip (talk • contribs) 01:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No way. If only because Nirvana was at its peak when Cobain died. If you want to claim that she was just as famous, I'd listen to your argument... but I suspect that you're simply too young to realize just how big Nirvana was from 91-94. Don't mean that in any pejorative sense.76.27.134.19 (talk) 01:41, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Nirvana's peak was 1991, and he died 3 years later. Amy's peak was 2006, she died 5 years later. It's not that different. Further more, both of these artist technically only had 2 successful studio albums (Bleach wasn't commercially successful, Incesticide was a b-side album, Unplugged was live) and Amy's list of awards (when alive) tower very strongly over Nirvana's (when alive) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Amy_Winehouse Further more, would you argue then that Brian Jones died at his peak? I don't think so. LegoTrip (talk) 10:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

She will be on the main chart (in this article) before long; inside a month I'd bet. Winehouse was a huge talent, towered over practically all of her fellow pop divas. She seems to have started out as a jazz singer, but crossed over into pop and became a pop music star. She wasn't a mere craftsman like many Grammy nominees, but a complete original. Her pattern of self-destruction was similar to the others in the club; it seems pointless to wring one's hands over what they could have accomplished had they gone straight, because they were all reckless as well as talented, and that's what made them what they were. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.32.133 (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 109.149.96.200, 23 July 2011

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Amy Winehouse died at her London flat in Camden Town at 1355 BST on the 23/07/11

109.149.96.200 (talk) 17:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It says she (amy winehouse) died of a cocaine overdose this is not yet a known fact the cause of death until such time that it is released should be unknown.

_{Changing from semi->protected request Jnorton7558 (talk) 23:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)}[reply]

Robert Johnson again

I know that Amy Winehouse died today, but as I'm looking on the list, Robert Johnson should be included in the upper tier. None of the artists following that would probably have nearly as much recognition if not for him. Splent (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the point. Is he usually included in the list? I don't think so. Wkr, Fontes (talk) 17:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno, there's generally seen to be a "big 5" of the major artists to have been in the 27 Club, and with Cobain aside, it's all focussed on a certain period in time. User:VampireKilla (talk) 17:30, 23 July 2011.

He still should be included. I know Cobain is after the time of the others, but why not include before? I mean, he influenced The Stones, Clapton, AND Hendrix. Two out of the three are included in the list. Splent (talk) 17:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We don't make the list, we register how it is. Wkr, Fontes (talk) 17:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, then how was it before Cobain died? Splent (talk) 17:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The same, just without Cobain. As it was the major musicians who died at the same age in a short period of time. Then due to his stature in the rock music scene music journos added him.VampireKilla (talk) 17:43, July 23 2011 (UTC)

Robert Johnson stands out on the secondary list, but he was of from a different era, when jazz and blues formed the 'popular music' of America. Quite a few jazz musicians died in young adulthood from substance abuse or other causes (automobile accidents, murder) back in the day, but not all that many were 27 years old when they died... that seems to be a coincidence, or death wish in the case of Cobain and perhaps Winehouse, that came about much later. So culturally Johnson does not belong on the list, although he would if stature as a musician was the criteria.

Edit request from 217.44.72.99, 23 July 2011

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Please revert the page and put it at fully protected. 217.44.72.99 (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC) You guys are TOTALLY lame! If it's true how can you leave out Robert Johnson? And what about Pig Pen from The Grateful Dead??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.254.105 (talk) 18:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What about 27 Club#Other musicians who died at 27?--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫_{Share–a–Power}^{[citation needed]} 21:47, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

_{Changing from semi->protected request Jnorton7558 (talk) 23:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)}[reply]

Edit request from Sicxnightmaree, 23 July 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

You need to add Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan on here!

Sicxnightmaree (talk) 17:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If he'd died a year earlier, he could be in. But he was 28 when he died. VampireKilla (talk) 17:36, July 23 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 17:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Amy Winehouse /Club 27 / Rock Musicans

Hello, why is Amy Winehouse even mentioned here? The article says "rock musicans" Amy Winehouse hoewever performed Jazz R&B and Soul...even according to the wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Winehouse greets, GBK — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.236.34 (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you were to read the rest of the article, you'd see there are musicians from all genres. Jessica (talk) 17:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Than the line about rock musicans should be changed to musicans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.236.34 (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at 27 Club. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

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per above comment, "rock music artists" to "musicians" in first sentence. U-Mos (talk) 18:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

she is suspected of overdose — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.142.14 (talk) 19:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its no "phenomenon"

the whole concept of the 27 Club being a phenomenon is wrong it is merely confirmation bias and therefore I propose that the opening paragraph is edited to reflect this by completely removing the second sentence altogether. Especially now that the worlds lazy journos will be coming here and using it for reference on Amy Winehouse bulletin stories. Expat Justin (talk) 18:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[2]RaintheOne ^BAM 19:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Request addition: Amy Winhouse full member and adding new catagory with empty sort-txt so it comes on top of list

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at 27 Club. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

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Hi, I'd like to propose to make 2 changes to the page:

1) Make Amy Winehouse a full-member of the list in stead of mentioning her on others. Imho she seems to be a full-member seen her lifestyle, startdom etc. If Janis Joplin is a member so should see. One reason could be because the original club was formed in 1970; but if Kurt Conain is full member so should Amy be

2) I'd like to add the article itself as 'top-article' on Category:Dead at the age of 27 by adding [[Category:Dead at the age of 27| ]] at the bottom. Any objections?? Tonkie (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@1: we do not make the members.. See my previous remarks about this.. Wkr, Fontes (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that Amy Winehouse will become commonly referenced as a member of the 27 club, but the criteria of the top list is "Musicians usually included in the 27 Club". She hasn't been dead long enough to be "usually included" in the list, so she shouldn't be there for now 92.40.234.58 (talk) 19:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, the BBC have already made reference to the 27 Club as regards Winehouse joining their number at this page http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14263841 - specifically see the update marked 1922. 92.8.69.193 (talk) 19:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 100%. She has not yet been dead long enough to be "commonly referenced as a member of the 27 club." I also agree that it seems very likely that she will be. The BBC articles and Time magazine articles are strong indications that she will be added to posters and t-shirts, etc, along with the big 4 or 5. But, right now that's all they are: indications. Patience, grasshopper. 76.27.134.19 (talk) 01:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Opinion: She died at 27 a celebrity, not a musician. She couldn't even perform her own songs, five years removed from any new material. Until the whole world starts calling referring to her as a "member," unaided by folks looking her up on Wikipedia, she should not be on there. 70.161.74.206 (talk) 20:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fact: when Brian Jones died at 27 he had been sacked from The Rolling Stones and so didn't have a band to perform his songs with. When I heard the news about Amy Winehouse and her age was mentioned, I didn't need Wikipedia to tell me "27 club". Nobbys nuts (talk) 23:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Uuhhh... actually she was a great musician with two critically acclaimed albums. If Janis Joplin is on the list, then Amy definitely should be. There is a whole new generation of female musicians and singers that credit Amy Winehouse for opening the door to their kind of music in the mainstream: Adele, Duffy, Lady Gaga, Lily Allen. Whether she is added to the main list or not should be decided on her achievements as a musician, not on tabloid culture or her drink/drug issues. All of the musicians on the main list had drug and alcohol issues just as bad as Amy that they never overcomed, but we rightly honour them because of their music. - --122.58.186.80 (talk) 21:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Even Time magazine, a definitive authority in popular culture, says she's a part of it now [3]. Her "sex, drugs, and rock and roll" lifestyle in spite of wide critical acclaim, utimately leading to an untimely demise, seriously makes her one of the so-called "main" Forever 27. en:User:FrickFrack 20:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think she should be added - yet. Odds are she'll be included in full at some point, but not right now. Toa Nidhiki05 20:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

She should not be added, the Original 27 club was made of rock singers who died at 27 in a short period of time, they all were hugely influential on the music stage... Cobain was later added because Nirvana made a huge impact on the 90's and helped define a generation and a decade. Winehouse was famous yes, influential? no. and she wasn't even a rock singer. As someone said, rest assured she will be forgoten soon (just let a couple of weeks go and the initial twitter and sensationalist media hype about the 27club tone down). She barely had a #1 hit for that matter. There is a REASON every single artist who dies at 27 ISN'T included on the list therefore included on the secondary list. Yaddar 20:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yaddar, I think those are pretty subjective statements, if anything, this section says that she's been considered pretty influential in matters related to retro-soul, and with Adele and Duffy getting so much attention, I somehow doubt she's gonna be that forgotten. Anyway, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and statements like those do not belong here --190.157.154.245 (talk) 20:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

190.157.154.245 Exaclty, influential in matters related to retro soul, as the 27 club article states "The deaths of these rock stars at the age of 27 really changed the way we look at rock music."... 1.- She wasnt a Rock singer. 2.- I'm not adding any crystalball statement ON the article itself, this is the tak page 3.- She didn't "changed the way we look at music" (that's the main reason Cobain was later added on a list that was localized on a 2 year frame in the first place, Cobain was HUGELY influential by helping CREATE & DEFINE a whole rock genere "grunge". He did change we way people listened to music (and even fashion) in the 90's) I'm sorry to say but Winehouse wasn't nealy as close as influential as the others on the music stage setting aside she wasn't even a rock musician per se , even her own wikipedia profile (and your statement) say that she was an R&B, Jazz and Soul singer. IF the news reports state her as a member of the club is because of the initial hype BUT as I said, there is another list on this article about other musicians who have died at 27. Otherwise the list would be 20 people long.Yaddar 20:55, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, we don't make the list, the list was created in the early 70's by people in the rock music industry and Cobain was later added on the basis of how HUGELY influential he was on the ROCK stage. It takes more than soe hyped sensationalist news report to fully acknowledge her as a full member. (On a list of musicians of a genere it's not even her genere). That's why we have a secondary list.Yaddar 21:05, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right, we don't make the list. Bu, no, the main list is not objectively compiled, and therefore, the fact that she isn't an influential ROCK musician (at least by your standards) is of absolutely no consequence. What is of consequence is whether she is commonly included as a member of the main group. We simply haven't had enough time to know yet. There are certainly indications (the "hyped sensationalist news reports" are far better indicators than your "objective" analysis), but not enough right now to say that she is part of the cultural phenomenon. As far as I'm concerned, her inclusion PRIOR to her death is probably the best argument for inclusion. It is a fact that speculation on her future inclusion predated her death (If someone could find a reference to a news article from earlier this year, it would go a long way). But, objective arguments regarding the quality of her music or her level of fame are irrelevant.76.27.134.19 (talk) 02:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A simple Google search reveals at least 11 notable instances of Robert Johnson being linked with, or identified as, the "founder" of the 27 Club and his huge influence on music and rock and roll in general is not disputed...More than enough to place him in the main group. 220.71.81.75 (talk) 21:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But far more often than not, he is let out of pop culture references to the list. I agree, if I were listing the great musicians who had died at 27, I would include him (and Pigpen). But in popular culture, the 4 or 5 (depending on whether Jones is included) are often depicted as the 27 club, and Johnson is very often ignored.76.27.134.19 (talk) 01:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing has been said about Winehouse and the 27s that I have seen. Therefore, for her to be included now is very much "us putting her on the list", which is was claimed we do not do. I would note that this is a common issue with pop culture - the postmodern idea that "if I think that's what it means/is, then that it really what it means/is." I think the prudent thing to do here is wait until somebody else makes reference to it, and then add her. I think the same rationale should be applied to the other artists on the list, if only for the reason that if it is marketed as an "American rock music phenomenon", why are Basquiat (artist), three rappers, and two Latin American traditional musicians on this list? In short, vet the criteria for addition so they make sense, are verified by some sort of RS saying something about the 27 club, and thereby accurately reflect the phenomenon, instead of creating an information dump of every person who's ever come within a mile of a musical instrument and happened to die between their 27th and 28th birthdays. MSJapan (talk) 02:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it's definitely out there... 138 hits on google news for "amy winehouse" and either "27 club" or "forever 27" http://news.google.com/news/search?pz=1&jfkl=true&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=%22amy+winehouse%22+27-club+OR+forever-27&as_qdr=d&as_drrb=q&cf=all&scoring=n. I still don't think she should be added to the top list until people start making Janis, Jimmy, Kurt and Amy t-shirts and posters... but I'm becoming increasingly more certain that it's going to be a matter of days rather than weeks.76.27.134.19 (talk) 02:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Request edit: Sortable list

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at 27 Club. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

The "Picture," "Fame," "Cause of Death," and "Claim to notability" fields on the two lists should be classed as "unsortable." Equally the names should all be sorted by the last name and the dates resorted with an easy "span style" in front of each of them.--Tim Thomason 19:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is correct. If an admin wants to do this while the page is full protected, that would be appreciated. Otherwise, I can do it when the protection is lifted or reduced to semi. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:05, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nick Drake

Does anyone knows why the singer that ended his life at the smae age does not found over the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.164.119 (talk) 20:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Close, but no cigar, he died at the age of 26. --190.157.154.245 (talk) 20:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merge

The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll should be merged here. It's simply not notable independently of the core subject covered by this aritcle. U-Mos (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at 27 Club. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

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Add {{Merge from|The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll|discuss=Talk:27 Club#Propose merge|date=July 2011}} to the top of the article. U-Mos (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Just to clarify this for the casual observer, or for the editor in a hurry: This article is about the pop culture phenomenon. The other article is about a particular book, that's about the pop culture phenomenon. So, if the book meets the criteria for Wikipedia:Notability (books), it should be kept separate. If the book does not meet the notability guidelines, its article should be merged into this article. — Mudwater^(Talk) 23:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Merge. This article is little more than a book report, especially with all the promotional copy removed. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 05:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Remove the long list of random people died at 27?

I propose getting rid of that long list. A lot of them don't even have a wikipedia page. What's the point of the list?--345Kai (talk) 22:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They aren't 'random people', they are all musicians. Since this is an article about musicians who died at 27, it seems perfectly appropriate. However, it might be reasonable to remove the people without wikipedia articles. 64.180.40.100 (talk) 22:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone on the list either has their own Wikipedia article, or, in a few cases, at least was in a band that has their own Wikipedia article. If you look through the previous discussion threads on this page, you'll see that this has been discussed before several times. Anyone who does not meet one of those two criteria has already been removed from the article. Also, as the article explains, this only pertains to musicians. — Mudwater^(Talk) 23:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to comment without logging in, but I wanted to ask real quick why the list is separated between those four and the rest? What makes a person particularly notable to be included on the big list? Robert Johnson is quite famous but he isn't on the list... I don't think that just because they are the most commonly cited examples by music publications they should be separated from the rest. --68.89.187.238 (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As the article sort of explains -- it could be clearer on this point, and I think it used to be -- and as others have discussed on this admittedly long talk page -- the short list of Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison were widely recognized in pop culture, starting in the early '70s, as the core group -- in articles, pictures, t-shirts, and so on. Later Kurt Cobain was added to the list, not by the editors of Wikipedia, but by the pop culture phenomenon. There's been some debate about adding Robert Johnson to the main group. He is mentioned with them in some articles, but more often he's left off the short list. — Mudwater^(Talk) 00:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The two lists were explained in the lead section until yesterday, for example in this version of the article. The lead used to say, "The 27 Club, also occasionally known as the Forever 27 Club or Club 27, is a name for a group of influential rock and blues musicians who all died at the age of 27. The 27 Club consists of two related phenomena, both in the realm of popular culture. The first is a list of five famous rock musicians who died at age 27—Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, and Kurt Cobain. The second is the idea that many other notable musicians have also died at the age of 27." That's definitely better than the current lead. — Mudwater^(Talk) 08:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

27 Club

Calvin Harris could join the 27 Club next! -- SpongePappy (talk) 00:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll

If The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll is going to be mentioned in the first paragraph, can someone at least add "The 2008 book..." to the beginning of the sentence? Trivialist (talk) 00:41, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Singer Amy Winehouse joins tragic '27 Club'

Hi All, Just noticed this article online on NineMSN (Australian version of MSN): Amy Winehouse joins tragic '27 Club'. Shouldn't this wikiarticle be updated? Regards, DPdH (talk) 01:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

at the moment there is a lot of hype and sensationalism from the media surrounding the fact Winehouse was 27, but that doesn't make her a) a rock singer -her genere was R&B, soul and jazz b) a decisive factor on the rock scene and music history and c) culturally significant or influential enough to be added on the list (unlike Kurt Cobain).. Remember the list was made in the early 70's to honour those rock musicians who died at 27 in a two year span... they all were huge and infuential... Cobain was later added because he was a decisive factor on the music industry of the early 90's... but if we were to add any musician who died at 27, the list would be more than 40 people long... and its not the case.. like it or not, Winehouse wasn't nearly as important as say... Cobain to deserve a spot on the original list. She was just another pop culture artist who could barely keep a concert together whereas Cobain helped define an entire generation and was the flag-carrier of the new genere of rock music called grunge. Yaddar 02:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.237.106.119 (talk) [reply]

Yaddar, again, you misunderstand why the main group of artists are grouped together on this page. It is because they are commonly listed and included in pop-culture as the main 27 club list. They are put on posters and t-shirts, and included in media reports. It is not because they satisfy objective criteria. Again, the "hype and sensationalism" in the news on her passing is a very strong indicator that Amy Winehouse will be included in the main group as it exists as a pop-culture phenomenon, and if that comes to pass she should be included in the main group in this article, regardless of her failure to satisfy the criteria you have listed. You would be better off making your arguments on an MTV news forum, rather than a wikipedia talk page. There, they would be relevant (and IMHO, very strong arguments). Here, your arguments are simply non-germane.76.27.134.19 (talk) 02:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Even tho I strongly believe she won't be added, -being my opinion irrelevant if you want-) the fact is that 1.- it's too early to tell if she will or won't be considered by the mainstream as a part of the club (her long-lasting impact on the music scene should be long-lasting, wich again I doubt it would hold up in the long run) 2.- the hype and sensationalism comes from a) the fact that she was better known for her scandals (which appeared on every sensationalist and gossip pubication) than for her actual music and b) because she happen'd to die at 27 ... SO, the point is that all the people who are in favor of adding her on the list, please refrain from doing so, as the time hasn't tell yet if she really left an everlasting and strong legacy on the rock music stage (and she was a R&B singer) as you said, the hype and sensationalism might be an indicator of the fact that she could be eventually added to the list given some time, but also it just could be "hype and sensationalism" and nothing more. Speaking on semantics "joining the 27 club" could mean that she is either part of it, or just took the same way the members of the 27 club took without being part of it. (just like the other 40 or so more people on the secondary list who "joined" the club by dying at 27 but aren't a part of it.) Yaddar 02:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I can go along with what you're saying. Just for the sake of pointing it out, many people would categorize Janis as an R&B/soul singer before calling her a rock musician. I think most people would agree that Janis and Winehouse are more stylistically similar than Janis and Nirvana (and for that matter, a lot of early Stones stuff sounds closer to Winehouse than Nirvana). Anyway, it's an irrelevant argument.76.27.134.19 (talk) 04:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it should - extremely reliable source The Guardian reports on it - [4] - as this page is just going off popular culture and is not an official group with membership... she should be added to the main table because pop culture is reporting it as so.... RaintheOne ^BAM 02:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also to those not familiar with our policies on reliable sources - if you claim she cannot "join" - take a look at those non notable websites who have been profiling this for years - they have inducted her into the main group.. Just saying.RaintheOne ^BAM 02:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"EW.com - Amy Winehouse joins the 'Forever 27 Club'". Remember definitions of said 27 Club are not set in stone... otherwise, Cobain wouldn't have been added to the list in recent years. --Madchester (talk) 02:31, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with most of the people above - I've just seen on CNN (as well as The Guardian and several other news sources) various news presenters and entertainment journalists refer to Amy having joined the '27 Club'. Seeing as how Kurt Cobain was added long after the list was established, and Amy is quite a high profile musician (despite not being entirely a 'rock' musician), I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect her to be added at some point. Haku8645 (talk) 02:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to let semantics clear, if someone says "I will join your group for dinner" does NOT mean I'm necessarily a member of the group, I can join Green Day in their tour but as a member of the crew, not as part of the band. SO, if the overly-and-early-hyped media says "Amy Winehouse joins the 27 club" it could also mean "joins them at the side (like the other 40-or so musicians on the secondary ist)" and not necessarily making herself a part of it again let the long term history be the judge and don't get caught on the overly-and-early-hyped media, it's logical that they are going to comment on the fact she was 27 and bring the topic on the table. when in fact not every musician who dies at 27 is on the list. (beign Cobain the only exception and he was added years later due to his huge impact on the rock scene Yaddar 02:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't want to add her because she was a not a "rock singer" so be be it, but there is no questioning her influence is right up their with the others.Amy Winehouse#Influence on the music industry 24.189.168.45 Edkollin (talk) 04:07, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

no, it's not that "I don't want to add her because she is not a rock singer"... its because the list is a rock music topic creadted in the 70's where Cobain gained his position years after his death when it became obvious the HUGE imact he had on the rock music stage and because of the fact he was the flagcarrier of a new rock genere as well of the face of a generation and helped define the 90's fashion and music .. the point is that all the people who are in favor of adding Winehouse on the list, please refrain from doing so, as the time hasn't tell yet if she really left an everlasting and strong legacy on the rock music stageYaddar 04:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

going further ahead, the description of the list on this very same article states that the list honours "The deaths of these rock stars at the age of 27 really changed the way we look at rock music."... Amy hasn't really changed the way we look at rock music. and let's assume time will prove she was really that huge of star and musician and her impact on the music was generational-defining (like Cobain's), well, wikipedia is against the crystal ball thing so again, please refrain of adding her to the list, and come back in some years. Yaddar 04:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well these reliable sources do not seem to care that she was not "rock music".[5],[6],[7] We could write that the at the time of her death Washington Post, CBS news, Billy Bragg etc put her in that category(And if you can find a reliable source that argues against this you can write about that also) and defined the "27 club" as superstar or celebrity "musicians" . Therefore Wikipedia won't be explicitly stating she is in the club and won't violate "Crystal Ball" but will still give the reader reliably sourced info about the 27 club. Yes should should not be added to the list unless a consensus is reached here.Edkollin (talk) 04:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources should always be our guide and many reliable sources have already started including her in the "27 Club" including CNN (they also include Robert Johnson, as have several other lists, which I find a strange omission). I think this whole idea that the "27 Club" is only for "rock musician" is quite odd and, frankly, WP:OR-ish. Even this article's primary source The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll featured artists (such as Robert Johnson!) that weren't traditionally considered "rock musicians". The issue should be pretty cut and dry. If several reliable sources state that so-and-so are included in a group then Wikipedia should follow the sources. This isn't WP:CRYSTALBALLing in the slightest, its letting the reliable sources dictate our content and not our own personal whims and subjective criteria. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 04:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

to elaborate, Neither the Rolling Stone Magazine nor the Billboard Magazine have added Winehouse the list, (those are reliable sources, the long established music magazines, not the newspapers and the news-media.) whereas Morrison, Hendrix, Joplin and Cobain have been frecuently listed in their main "100 greatest Astists/singers/guitarrists of all time" lists (and Jones is the founding member of the Rollign Stones, also a top 100 band of all time according to those publications). IF time proves winehouse being worthly of being added of the core list becasue of her everlasting legacy, then OK, but for now is very recent and wikipedia is against recentism and crystal ball.Yaddar 04:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Neither the Rolling Stone Magazine nor the Billboard Magazine have added Winehouse the list" So? There is no reason to give WP:UNDUE weight to those reliable sources (who have merely not yet added her versus categorically stating that she shouldn't be in the club--big difference) and ignore the many other reliable sources such as The Guardian, Time Magazine, CNN, Entertainment Weekly, etc who have already stated that she is part of this somber club. Your repeated reference to WP:RECENT and WP:CRYSTALBALL is wholly misplaced and shows a lack of understanding about those pages. It is akin to arguing that the 2011 Norway attacks page shouldn't include the reaction quotes from reliable sources describing the event as Norway's worst national tragedy since World War II because it is "too recent and predicting the future" etc. Again, we (as Wikipedia editors) should let the reliable sources and not our own subjective, cherry-picked criteria dictate our content. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 06:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, you keep talking about "waiting to see if Winehouse is worthy" of being included in this club. There shouldn't be any discussion of "worthiness" at all because Wikipedia is not the keeper or lord of this "sacred" 27 club. We are not entrusted to protect its sanctity like bouncers at the doors. No, not at all. What we feel about Winehouse's music, her legacy and her "worthiness" is utterly and completely irrelevant. Our only job is to report what the reliable sources has stated about the matter and numerous highly credible and highly reliable sources (Time, Guardian, CNN, et al) have made the claim that she is part of this club. It is not our place to let WP:POV discussions of "worthiness" stir us to willfully ignore and reject what reliable sources are stating. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 06:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I don't mean to offend anyone but you really can't count sensationalist news corporations as reliable sources. They are not industry members/insiders or industry experts, they are merely using the 27 Club as a figure of speech because Winehouse indeed died at the age of 27. We really shouldn't get ahead of the decisions here that really matter, namely: Will the music industry confirm her being considered part of the 27 Club or not. Just because some news anchor on CNN or a British tabloid hungry for a sensational headline claim her to belong to the 27 Club does not confirm that the music industry considers this to be fact. The main point we should concentrate on is whether or not those people who actually count in the matter of this decision, the music industry, agree that she should belong. You wouldn't want a scuplture artist to decide which stocks to include in the DAX or NASDAC now, would you? You'd leave that decision to the stock market experts. Similarily we should wait for what key figures in the music industry decide and go with that. Yoshi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.1.150.96 (talk) 07:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is very interesting seeing the argument played out as to whether Amy Winehouse should be added to Wikipedia’s 27 club. There has, of course, never actually been a ‘formal’ 27-club – there has never been an official entry process. (It is interesting to note that Wikipedia classes the article in rock music – this is merely a Wikipedia classification, there has never been any ‘rule’ stipulating people in the group must be associated exclusively with ‘rock’ music). It has instead been a group of musical artists who have had ‘rock and roll’ lifestyles and have tragically died at the young age of 27, shocking the public. It wasn’t necessarily those who were the most popular at the time: Janis Joplin was hardly a chart-buster. However it was her legacy and influence over not only the public, but arguably more importantly current and future artists that made her important. The same goes with the other artists, their legacy and influence has made their importance huge. If we apply this to Amy Winehouse, not only is she an impressive award-winning performer, but her artistic influence is huge. Would Adele be as popular as she is without Amy Winehouse treading the path first? I doubt it. The same goes with a whole host of female artists. Kurt Cobain’s addition was contentious at the time, but set a precedent that additions could be made. Considering the 27-club is not official, and based solely on perception, and it is now on the public’s psyche that Winehouse has joined the 27-club, I would argue heavily that she be added soon to this Wikipedia article. She was a huge artist, especially in Europe. To deny her a place on the list would leave this Wikipedia article incorrect and out of touch.

Edit request from 184.175.38.167, 24 July 2011

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and Amy winehouse!

Amy Winehouse fits the definition of being the 6th member of this 27 club. If you want to quibble about music genres, Janis Joplin was more of a soul and blues singer than a rock musician herself. But better than that, I think all 6 belong to a larger genre: pop music. All are great singer-songwriters who made an impression on pop culture. That Winehouse released only 2 albums and hadn't had much of a career for the last 5 years makes her perhaps a "lesser" member, but still a member. It certainly strikes me as odd that she is currently grouped with a list of barely-known musicians. She is a big name, and I believe would still have been a big name even without the notoriety of her drug-addled behaviour filling magazine columns in recent years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.79.103.212 (talk) 07:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1) Do you really mean "Pop music" and not "Popular music"; than it is utterly false. 2) Why should we include Winehouse if Robert Johnson isn't even in the main table? 3) It is too premature; we must wait until it gets more hype. 4) All three where, and yes Joplin of course too, rock musicians and hugely influenced other musicians. Winehouse wasn't even close a rock musician. 5) see discussions above.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫_{Share–a–Power}^{[citation needed]} 09:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

184.175.38.167 (talk) 07:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While she is no doubt talented, her musical influence and legacy does not currently, nor will it ever, match those of the main 27 club. You seriously think she has the same legacy as The Doors, the Rolling Stones, or Hendrix? She isn't even played on pop radio stations anymore... 72.188.10.214 (talk) 07:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Success is not the same as influence; if her songs appear in radios, that doesn't mean she is influental.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫_{Share–a–Power}^{[citation needed]} 09:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

this singer is missing in the club

Hallo The German singer "Alexandra" is missing in the Club 27!

Kind regards

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_%28S%C3%A4ngerin%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_%28singer%29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.157.22.240 (talk) 09:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable reference

Sorry to add to the clutter. But this article at CNN is a pretty strong case that she should be in the headline list. --TimL (talk) 09:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it's a better source for putting Johnson there. As for Amy, it's still probably best for a source that focuses on the club rather than her to cite her inclusion. U-Mos (talk) 10:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Amy whinehouse

She should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.20.118.4 (talk) 10:05, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Addition of British Reality Star Jade Goody

She was more famous in Britian, but she did experience substantial fame with books, tv shows and a product line. She starred in a season of Celebrity Big Brother with Jermaine Jackson, of the Jackson 5, and Bollywood superstar Shilpa Shetty. She died at the age of 27 from Metastatic cervical cancer. Bab-a-lot (talk) 10:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you wrote this as a joke. (1ihatehalifax (talk) 10:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Disussion: Addition of Amy Winehouse to the 27 Club

It is very interesting seeing the argument played out as to whether Amy Winehouse should be added to Wikipedia’s 27 club. There has, of course, never actually been a ‘formal’ 27-club – there has never been an official entry process. (It is interesting to note that Wikipedia classes the article in rock music – this is merely a Wikipedia classification, there has never been any ‘rule’ stipulating people in the group must be associated exclusively with ‘rock’ music). It has instead been a group of musical artists who have had ‘rock and roll’ lifestyles and have tragically died at the young age of 27, shocking the public. It wasn’t necessarily those who were the most popular at the time: Janis Joplin was hardly a chart-buster. However it was her legacy and influence over not only the public, but arguably more importantly current and future artists that made her important. The same goes with the other artists, their legacy and influence has made their importance huge. If we apply this to Amy Winehouse, not only is she an impressive award-winning performer, but her artistic influence is huge. Would Adele be as popular as she is without Amy Winehouse treading the path first? I doubt it. The same goes with a whole host of female artists. Kurt Cobain’s addition was contentious at the time, but set a precedent that additions could be made. Considering the 27-club is not official, and based solely on perception, and it is now on the public’s psyche that Winehouse has joined the 27-club, I would argue heavily that she be added soon to this Wikipedia article. She was a huge artist, especially in Europe. To deny her a place on the list would leave this Wikipedia article incorrect and out of touch. (1ihatehalifax (talk) 10:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Firstly, although the article is currently protected there seems to be agreement that it should no longer class itself only as rock musicians. Secondly, I strongly believe that per WP:RECENTISM Amy should not be added to the main list until the dust has settled and it becomes clear that she has gone down in history as a member of the 27s. U-Mos (talk) 10:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Having thought about this further, I am certain that Amy Winehouse will be forever mentioned with Cobain, Morrison, Joplin and Hendrix. She's a far greater celebrity than any of the other musicians not in the main list, and she's going to be included. But, I also agree that the dust has not settled, and there is no proof, and this article should be cautious to avoid recentism. Consider that all of the articles mentioning Winehouse with Cobain, Morrison, Joplin and Hendrix are articles about Winehouse. We haven't seen an article about someone else's death at 27 mention Winehouse, Cobain, Morrison, Joplin and Hendrix. That's the true measure... when she's included, others are excluded, and she isn't the main topic, but part of the list of tragic deaths. She's not "usually included" just because CNN wrote an article about Amy Winehouse and mentioned the other musicians. She's usually included in the list when she's usually included in the list. Of course she's going to be included on the day of her death! Let the article stay as is, and revisit the idea in a couple of months. 76.27.134.19 (talk) 10:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Amy should be part of the club, considering Kurt Cobain was added so not just 1970's stars. This is due to recognition by the press and music commentators, below are just a few links that back up the claim.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14264609 http://ibnlive.in.com/news/winehouse-the-latest-member-to-forever-27-club/169935-45-75.html http://www.forever27.co.uk/27/ http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/07/23/amy-winehouse-becomes-the-newest-member-of-the-forever-27-club/ http://www.nj.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2011/07/amy_winehouse_the_newest_member_of_the_27_club.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.243.104 (talk) 11:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed change of 'Rock Music artists' to 'Music artists'

While this comes amid the discussion on the inclusion of Amy Winehouse in the list, the phrase ‘rock’ really ought to be removed. Brian Jones would be turning in his grave if he knew he was being described as a rock musician (he famously always campaigned for the Rolling Stones to be billed as a Rhythm and Blues act). Janis Joplin’s style is arguably very jazz/blues heavy. The larger list of musicians certainly is not exclusive to the ‘rock’ genre. Therefore I propose that when this article is unlocked, the word ‘rock’ be removed. The 27-club doesn't have formal criteria for entry.(1ihatehalifax (talk) 11:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7745273.stm
^ http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/celebrity/brian_jones/
^ Wyman 2002, p. 329

[1] ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7745273.stm

[2] ttp://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/celebrity/brian_jones/

[wymanp329-3] Wyman 2002, p. 329

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