Talk:2011 England riots

29-year-old father-of-four?

How about Gangster and drug dealer who shot at the cop first and then was shot? 50.9.109.170 (talk) 10:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I haven't read if there was any drug related issues, only that this was part of Operation Trident (Metropolitan_Police). The 'father of four' seems to be an emotive insertion to garner sympathy for Duggan. The initial reports indicated he shot first and was subsequently killed, which would reduce somewhat the sympathy factor. I'd recommend simply stating his name, and age. At present this isn't anything to do with 'discrimination' so I'm not sure why the talk pages say this is linked to WikiProject Discrimination? I've seen images showing looters who were of different races and does the fact this man was black have anything to do with him being shot? I think the link to the discrimination project isn't warranted and is merely a parallel to the Broadwater farm riots. --Canhazanonymous (talk) 10:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Duggan, who had previously been sent to prison, was carrying a gun, which has been recovered from the scene. He was not shot because he was black, nor because he was an irresponsible, overbreeding deadbeat dad. No-one is shot because of the number of children they have, it is merely being used in an emotive way by his supporters / admirers; 'father-of-four' is irrelevant to the case. 188.28.77.247 (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Latest news suggests that initial police ballistic tests have shown that the bullet that lodged in the police radio (supposedly shot by Duggan) was police-issue. Therefore he didn't shoot a policeman, something that corresponds with accounts from people who knew him best. Don't make assumptions and get dragged into debate - this is an encyclopedia. The fact is he was 29 and he was a father of 4. I bet there wasn't this debate around Ian Tomlinson's page at the start. Tommer312 (talk) 09:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Duggan was carrying a gun, something that law-abiding civilians do not usually do. To define Duggan primarily as a family man and a father-of-four is ridiculous - he did not live with any of his children. 188.28.113.53 (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

"Multi-ethnic nature of incident"

The current article states: "The incident is being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission due to the multi-ethnic nature of the incident" I'm sorry, but that is utter garbage. All incidents involving police use of firearms are investigated. --86.136.203.178 (talk) 10:58, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Pointless

Cant see the point of an article of a current event which is unfolding by the minute, and where so much is still unclear, rumour or supposition.Unraed (talk) 12:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

We managed to cover the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks as they were ongoing.©Geni 12:30, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

But what is the point? If you want to know the latest on what is happening in such an event the news media or Google News give you all that. What is the point in s selective, sporadic re-posting of bits and pieces of news or supposition or rumour on Wiki, often by people with some bias or other but whose truthfulness or objectivity is completely impossible to judge? I cannot see how this adds value and it differs from the rest of Wiki where one person's expert knowledge can help illuminate an issue for others without that knowledge. How is my understanding of what is happening in Tottenham right now helped by someone I do not know cutting and pasting bits from Google News that appeal to their prejudices? Unraed (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not cutting and pasting, I created this article just as I was watching it from Sky News. Jaguar (talk) 13:07, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

You will never stop live Wikipedia reporting on unfolding events. Either sit back and enjoy the ride and stop reading until the dust settles. WWGB (talk) 13:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Just my 2 cents... Wikipedia seems to be the BEST source for events as they unfold. I just saw the headlines, dug through a half dozen AP stories, and was severely dissapointed with the lack of detail. I never gave it much thought, but a news story is written in a substantially different manner than an encyclopedia entry. I found this entry to be very well written and organised - much better than the "news"

Because that is how Wiki is at its very best. As above, the Mumbai bombings were reported "as live" on Wikipedia, with the article cited as one of the best news gathering events outside a newsroom. CNN spoke highly of what editors here achieved. In only a few hours, Wikipedia editors have collated news and opinion in English and five other languages, so you don't have to trawl the news sites if you don't want to. "Pointless" ? Only if you misunderstand the project as a whole. This is Wikipedia at its very best. doktorb _words^deeds 13:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes I think Wikipedia generally does a very good job of reporting these kinds of events. There are two advantages for the reader over other news outlets. First all the useful information is gathered in one place, so you don't need to spend time trawling round different news sites trying to find the facts. Second, useless information is usually filtered out - opinons, conjectures and speculations are usually edited out pretty quickly. A good example would be the recent death of Amy Winehouse. There was all kind of sensationalism and speculation as to the cause of death based on no evidence. The Wikipedia article simply stated that the cause of death was as yet unknown and gave a couple of citations. Having said all that - I think Wikipedia's superiority for news events is a result of the awfully poor quality of the output of most major news organisations rather than a result of great Wikipedia is.

We the white in UK are still full of feeling superior to minorities and think that only other countries have that problem. So my dear friend user VED036 we will be lucky to be a country like India that has hundreds of different ethnicity and still manage to exist peacefully in a country that has 1.2 billion people. Sure India has problems of their own, but for a country of that size they are more peaceful and acceptable than us.

I have no idea what your agenda is, or how your comment is relevant to the article, but for information on riots in India see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_in_India --Mattmm (talk) 09:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Afd taged

• Note It is also on Russia Today. It may take off in Brixton if informants are true, so waite a while to see if it goes off tonight or allied riots occer in Wood Green and Brixton. I say give it a week or two.82.14.54.17 (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Ken Livingstone's statement

Can be found here:

http://www.labourlist.org/ken-livingstone-statement-on-tottenham-riots

I red it.82.14.54.17 (talk) 15:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Pluralised riot in title

Just the one riot has taken place. Suggest a move to "2011 Tottenham riot". --TBM10 (talk) 13:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Tottenham AND Wood Green. WWGB (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

So, "North London riots" then? --TBM10 (talk) 14:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

OK. that's cool.82.14.54.17 (talk) 15:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Background

How about adding something like the following to the Background section?

History

This unrest played out against a larger background of fraught relations between the police and the black community. Commentators have especially drawn parallels to the Broadwater Farm riot of 1985.

ARK (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay -- I've added this to the article as Causes ARK (talk) 18:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Good idea.86.24.10.103 (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Please edit my reference

Hi, On item six in the sources you list the source as Sky News. This is wrong. it is in fact my blog at www.spiderplantland.co.uk - could this be changed? Sorry I am not enough of an expert to know how! Thanks

Hi -- Wikipedia has a number of community guidelines to ensure that articles meet certain quality standards. One of those guidelines is Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, which more or less rules out blog posts as sources. Ironically, I think, your blog post has remained in the article because is was misidentified as Sky News. Please expect the reference to your blog to be substituted with a reference to a source that is uncontroversially 'reliable'. Best, ARK (talk) 17:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Something definitely wrong with Wikipedia...events need a few days

Shouldn't a few days pass, maybe even a week before an article is started or fully underway before. Wikipedia isnt, or should be a current news reporting website. Its what it says in its name...an encyclopedia.....but hey, person who start it need to race to be first to add to their cred, get em on that CV/ resume...hey and a wikipedia writing medal for roughing it in the battlefield.69.196.135.42 (talk) 19:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

There's no minimum amount of time that needs to elapse after an event in order for an article to be created about it. If reliable sources report it and it is notable, we can write an article about it. Jim Michael (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no minimum time for an article to start. A discussion was held to delete this article (see the very top) and it was voted upon to Keep. Your sarcasm adds nothing to anything doktorb _words^deeds 19:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

References

--86.24.10.103 (talk) 19:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Casualties

In the Casualties section of the infobox, it says 68 deaths in total!! 68 deaths? In a riot in England? I don't believe it. Are you sure this is correct? GeorgeGriffiths (talk) 19:31, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

"A person suffering from injuries or who has been killed due to an accident or through an act of violence". [1] This clearly means 'injured'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

It says 68 casualties, not deaths. As far as we know, no-one has died during the riots. Jim Michael (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Move: Discussion

I don't propose this officially, but would like opinions on moving this article to "2011 North London riots" or "2011 North London unrest", with developing stories and expanded news coverage now shifting from the initial Saturday events. Any opinions or views? I can see why - as it's now not just within the London Borough of Tottenham, why editors may wish to move this somewhere else. doktorb _words^deeds 19:45, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Tottenham is not a London Borough, it's part of Haringey, which also contains Wood Green. Enfield Town, however, is not even on the border of the Borough of Enfield with Haringey, it's quite some distance away, and is in fact five miles from the Tottenham epicentre. Clearly the current page name is too restrictive, and does not reflect the geography of the eventsNick Cooper (talk) 21:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The current title needs to be changed as the riots have extended to Wood Green and Enfield. Have there been any other riots in London this year? If not, move to 2011 London riots. No need for North if there is no need to distinguish between these riots and any others in London this year. Jim Michael (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Though the riots started in Tottenham, they have now spread to Wood Green and Enfield. The title is becoming progressively less appropriate. However, it is helpful to readers for the title to define the scope. 2011 London riots is too imprecise. I therefore support a page move to 2011 North London riots. Bridgeplayer (talk) 21:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Wait for the name to settle of its own accord in the public discourse, then adjust accordingly. ARK (talk) 22:12, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

"North London riots" is also imprecise, given that violent disorder has now also been reported in the south and the east of London. Keristrasza (talk) 08:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed; it is now. The BBC news is headlining all its reports as "London Riots". This is now reflected in the following RS: [2][3][4][5]. We should now move the page to 2011 London riots. Bridgeplayer (talk) 13:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Bullet in radio was 'police issue'?

The Guardian is reporting [6] that initial tests on the bullet found lodged in a police radio was a police-issue dum-dum type, and not fired by the shooting victim, as claimed. This doesn't of course prove that he didn't have a weapon, but it is worth noting. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

This seems to be based on nothing more than the bullet being a hollow point, and the fact that the police use hollow points. Civilians aren't supposed to have access to hollow points, but then they're not supposed to have access to handgiuns, either, so there seems to be some spectacular conclusion leaping going on.... Nick Cooper (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

most of the limitations on hollow points are on millitary use. I understand they are fairly popular for certian civilian aplications in the US. However if we assume that the guardian are not completely incompetent then other factors such as caliber will also match. Yes it's possible that someone else happened to have the same bullets as the police but ultimately its not our call. The guardian is running this on their front page tomorrow thus at some point we will have to mention it.©Geni 22:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

24 hour clock

I think that we should consistently use the 24 hour clock so 7.05 pm becomes 19:05. Bridgeplayer (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, also use British English, not just for colour and flavour, but also because of this WP:TIES.--Cerejota (talk) 01:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Peasants

Thank you to whoever changed, "A series of disturbances by peasants in Tottenham followed the protest march on 6 August" to "A series of disturbances by people in Tottenham followed the protest march on 6 August." Whoever was responsible for the "peasants" remark is not fit to be contributing to Wikipedia, or to pass any comment on anything. Findlay777 (talk) 23:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid the article is high enough profile to be the target of vandalism.©Geni 23:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

2011 Tottenham riots → 2011 London riots – Riots now extend far beyond tottenham, with extensive looting and damage in Brixton, South London, as well as a 7 mile area of North London. AndrewTindall (talk) 01:28, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

This Sky News report certainly suggests disturbances in several areas of London, mostly apparently looting of shops. However, at the moment, the WP:RS are still calling it the "Tottenham riots". When they change their usage, so should we. Until then, the article should keep the same name. -- The Anome (talk) 01:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Anome (or at least, what the above post said before I was edit conflicted). The fact that they began with the shooting in Tottenham may well lead to them being remembered as the Tottenham riots, despite taking place in places from Enfield to Brixton. If it ever is renamed, "riots" should remain lower case. —WFC— TFL notices 01:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

It should definitely be moved, this source clearly states the riots are across a large section of London http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14439970 12bigbrother12 (talk) 02:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

BBC calling it "London riot" on news front page... Hyper3 (talk) 06:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Support a move to 2011 London riots. This is no longer confined to Tottenham. Many RS now reflecting the spread of the disorder to south and east London as well as other parts of the north. Graun reads: "London riots spread south of Thames" and points to the rioting in Brixton, Enfield, Islington and Walthamstow. The Torygraph also reads: "London riots: live" and goes on: "This is our live coverage of the riots and disturbances in London, which on Sunday night brought looting and disruption to large areas of the capital." Channel 4 news go with "London riots spread." BBC: Met Police on London riots." USA Today: "Police arrest more than 160 in London riots." etc etc. Keristrasza (talk) 08:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

2011 I'm so Cockney I'm riddled with it riots? Lugnuts (talk) 07:11, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

"Riots" should definitely be lower-case, as it is not a proper noun. HandsomeFella (talk) 08:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

2011 London riots I've just seen stuff on Brixton as I logged on. I thin Enfield was hit again.Wipsenade (talk) 09:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Playing devil's advocate, but the only riots have taken place in Tottenham. The rest has just been looting and theft. How about 2011 London looting?! Brad78 (talk) 10:08, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

• Weak support I support renaming but think 2011 London riots might be too ambiguous given the previous protests this year. Not sure what else to call it though.--Pontificalibus (talk) 10:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Suggested: "2011 suburban London riots" - but that was rudely deleted from this page for no reason. 11:01, 8 August 2011 User:Jaedit
• Support (how about August 2011 London riots?) Black Kite (t) (c) 11:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Have there been other significant riots in London this year? Otherwise using August is being overly precise. Jenks24 (talk) 12:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support (how about the August 2011 Greater London riots?)82.2.72.189 (talk) 11:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Postpone It's not for Wikipedia to name these events. Wait for a name to stick in real life, then follow suit. You want to move this once, not two or three times. ARK (talk) 13:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Agree OK, that's fair ARK.82.2.72.189 (talk) 13:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Slightly Devil's advocate-y but why not? Moving isn't really a big issue. Your point is right that we should follow common usage though. violet/riga _^[talk] 14:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support 2011 London riots. Both the BBC News and Sky News headline all their news reports 'London Riots' and it is used in mamy RS e.g. [7][8][9][10]. This is now the real life usage. Bridgeplayer (talk) 14:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Policing operation across London

Police press release on tonight's activities - http://www.met.police.uk/pressbureau/Bur08/page01.htm - gives a nice breakdown of the different areas affected. Nanonic (talk) 02:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, this is a blog (not an RS) of the activities tonight. Might be useful as a launching point to search for RS. Nanonic (talk) 03:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

East London

Why is there no mention of Walthamstow, Leyton & Strafrord being raided? The rioters did some considerable damage to those areas too--82.10.203.103 (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Then add this to the article yourself. You will need to supply cites to reliable sources to back up your assertions -- see the article for the standard format for these cites. -- The Anome (talk) 02:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I've not heard any mention of anything kicking off in Stratford or Leyton and I've been keeping half an eye on the news in case it decides to spread to other areas of Walthamstow.Mr Larrington (talk) 12:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Walthamstow [[11]] was added an hour ago. :-}82.2.72.189 (talk) 11:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

At what point does a 'disturbance' become part of these riots? The Argos in Dalston (part of the Borough of Hackney) was raided last night. Should this be mentioned? --62.49.203.34 (talk) 11:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know at what point does a 'disturbance' become part of these riots, but untill this is sorted it is best to add all lootings and attacks on shops, police, press and goverment/corporate property. Yes, you can add about the The Argos in Dalston.82.2.72.189 (talk) 13:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Riot dates

"6 August - 7 August" - There is no way of knowing the rioting will end on 7 August, I propose we change "7 August" to "Present" until riots end.

Black man

"The disturbances were preceded by the fatal shooting of 29-year-old black man Mark Duggan by police..." why does the colour of his skin need to be mentioned? Is there an undisputed endemic race problem amongst police? By this token every time a "white" man is mentioned the term must be used as well. The white Old Etonian Lord Mayor for instance. If it says "by a white policeman" there would be some undertones of an entrenced battle between black and white. There still appears to be the thinking that "black people" are downtrodden and always the victims of injustice.

Most of the rioters are black criminals who are reacting to the death of Duggan, also a black criminal, or using it as an excuse to riot. If the police had instead shot a white criminal, it is highly unlikely that it would have been followed by riots. Perhaps that makes it relevant to the article. 188.28.77.247 (talk) 09:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

There's no evidence to suggest Duggan or the rioters were criminals. Let's wait until the facts are established and verified.

There is a history of racial tension, especially with the police, in the area so it is relevant. Also, when people (especially non-Britons) read about a Londoner I think they'd tend to assume he's white at first, so there's of course no need to describe others as "white". Considering the racial undertones in the actual case of Mark Duggan's shooting I think it should stay. Also, just FYI, you are aware that the Lord Mayor is not an Old Etonian - Boris Johnson is the Mayor of London, not the Lord Mayor of London. Tommer312 (talk) 09:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd think that the fact of the rioters torching vehicles and buildings and looting shops probably qualifies them as criminals.Mr Larrington (talk) 12:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

We are not the ones who should be making suggestions of racial trouble and should only mention it if there are reputable sources that are making the link. As it stands identifying him as a "black man" infers that this is an issue. violet/riga _^[talk] 11:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't realise there were two separate entities Mayor of London and Lord Mayor of London, for my information, that's really helpful, good to know that always confused me when Ken's name came up as Lord Mayor. Boris Johnson is a white man and a white Old Etonian, foreign people assume that people from London are white, you have to be joking! The rioters are "black criminals" are these worse than "white criminals" could ever be?

I don't know of any case of a riot after police shot a white person. There have been many cases of riots after police shot black people. I think that makes Duggan's race relevant to the article and the reader's understanding of the course of events. 188.28.113.53 (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Mark Duggan

• An article about Mark Duggan would be useful. The current page Mark Duggan is about another man (an Irish soccer player). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Since he's currently only notable for being shot (we haven't even had the autopsy results yet), that would probably be deleted under WP:BLP1E. Any info about Duggan is probably better here at the moment. Black Kite (t) (c) 11:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

BLP policies don't apply to dead people. We have plenty of Death of... articles, so could follow that format as a biography is not appropriate. --Pontificalibus (talk) 11:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

There's mention of this article as a dab at the top of that page - that should suffice. violet/riga _^[talk] 11:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Organising

There are lots of sources online now for the Blackberry Messenger broadcasts that were sent over the last few days to organise people in certain areas including http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-61 . Nanonic (talk) 13:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

UKBlackberry have just tweeted "We feel for those impacted by the riots in London. We have engaged with the authorities to assist in any way we can." - covered in the Guardian live feed above. Nanonic (talk) 14:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)