Talk:Harry S. Truman

Harry S Truman

I don't think Harry S Truman's name should have a 'dot' after the "S" because the S doesn't stand for anything. 70.179.54.127 (talk · contribs)

Read the FAQ. --Ian Dalziel (talk) 22:53, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 98.208.60.136, 1 September 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Truman Doctrine in Guatemala
Several hundred records were released by the Central Intelligence Agency on May 23 1997, on its involvement in the 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état. They reflected Truman administration feeling that the government of Arbenz, elected in 1950, would continue a process of socio-economic reforms that the CIA disdainfully refers to in its memoranda as "an intensely nationalistic program of progress colored by the touchy, anti-foreign inferiority complex of the 'Banana Republic.'" Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive US-sponsored military regimes murdered more than 200,000 civilians, with another 100,000 "disappeared." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.208.60.136 (talk • contribs)

Maybe Truman could have done something about that, had he actually been in office during 1954-1990. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

This request needs discussion and refs - I can't process it as a simple 'semi prot edit request' - please, talk about it, and ask again, thanks.  Chzz  ►  01:51, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Please remove the dot after the S in his middle name

Please remove the dot after the S in his middle name. It is not used because it is not short for something. See The Harry S Truman National Historic site: http://www.nps.gov/hstr/index.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henninger ainscough (talk • contribs) 18:55, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

98.208.60.136 (talk) 04:43, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

NO. He signed his name "Harry S. Truman", and that's the way it is. See the FAQ here. Also, note that the Truman library uses the "S."[7] Read the Truman library's full explanation for further info.[8] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

"See the FAQ here" - which states that either form can be correct. Moreover, is that FAQ meant to be about usage in this article or about the person/his name itself? — Smjg (talk) 22:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Both. And consensus (and the preponderance of sources) use the period. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:32, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The preponderance of sources use it because either:

• They see "Harry S Truman" and out of ignorance assume the "." has just been inadvertently omitted.
• They are not giving his middle name, only his middle initial.

FWIW I've just looked at a few other US presidents' articles for comparison. I shall summarise my findings in a table:

Page title	Name as given in lead paragraph
Lyndon B. Johnson	Lyndon Baines Johnson
Franklin D. Roosevelt	Franklin Delano Roosevelt
George W. Bush	George Walker Bush
Ulysses S. Grant	Ulysses S. Grant

OK, so they don't all quite follow this pattern. But these cases set a precedent for using "Harry S. Truman" (first name, middle initial, last name) as the page title, and "Harry S Truman" (first name, middle name, last name) in the lead paragraph.

Moreover, this whole subject has come up many times. Have you looked through the talk page archive? — Smjg (talk) 23:15, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it has come up many times. "S." is the form to use throughout. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

For something of such minor importance, it is the most disputed topic in this article. If there is a definitive source that there should not be a period, then please provide it. I added Ulysses S. Grant to the table above. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 02:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

If there's a definitive source that the form "Harry S Truman" is wrong, please provide it. Until we can find one, one can only ask: Who has ruled that this individual must never be referred to on WP by all his names? Why has this individual been singled out?

OK, so it may be the case that he had no middle name. (It would appear that this is the case with Ulysses S. Grant, though that full name was an adopted one.) The one source we have doesn't comment on the claim that Harry's middle name is S, but merely states that it "did not stand for any name". Does anyone here have access to Harry's birth certificate? (Of course, knowing the format of birth certificates from the time and place of relevance would also help.)

Or is this your point – because there's no definitive source claiming that S is his middle name, we shouldn't claim it is? — Smjg (talk) 22:57, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

According to this,[9] Harry didn't have one, as they weren't required by MIssouri law at that time. Although the "S." didn't stand for any one name, "in effect" it stood for both "Shipp" and "Solomon". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:12, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, he signed his name "S." and his own library calls it "S." and they should know if anyone would. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:14, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

So what? "John M. Smith" is a very common way of writing someone's name, regardless of how many letters the middle name has in it. — Smjg (talk) 00:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

If the "M." in "John M. Smith" stood for both "Michael" and "Marvin", you wouldn't write it as "M", you'd write it as "M.", in America anyway. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:46, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

If somebody had two middle names, normally it would be written "John Michael Marvin Smith" or "John M. M. Smith". OK, so one middle initial might etymologically stand for two names, but they can't both be his one middle name. Presumably, either Harry had a middle name or he didn't. My point was that knowing that his signature and institution names contain an "S." doesn't in any way prove that it didn't stand for just "S" in his legal or common name. — Smjg (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

To put it another way, compare this situation with Johnny Cash, whose legal name was John R. Cash. Not John R Cash, but John R. Cash. Officially, the "R." stood for nothing, just like the "S." in "Harry S. Truman" officially stood for nothing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:58, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

But has anybody ever claimed that Johnny's middle name is "R"? What is/was his middle name legally - "R", "R." or nothing at all? — Smjg (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Can we find somebody alive now who has either a one-letter middle name or a middle initial that stands for nothing? (Indeed, can people still be named in such a way in any jurisdiction that uses an alphabetic script?) How is the fact of the latter represented on birth certificates, passports, etc.? Anybody out there who is named in such a way, please de-lurk and speak out! — Smjg (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

There are other people who have middle names that are initials only. But we are not discussing them, we are discussing Truman. As noted in the article, he used a period when he signed presidential documents. The preponderance of sources in the article use a period, and you can't change those. Most places and things named after Truman use a period and you can't change those. Is there a compelling argument that he did not use a period backed up by reliable sources? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

You've done little but repeat what people have already said and I've already debunked the relevance of. Oh, you mean whether he wrote "HARRY S" or "HARRY S." when filling in the "first names" box on a form? That is indeed something that we don't know at the moment. — Smjg (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

World War I

Was he subordinate to Henry L. Simpson during WW I? --109.91.72.35 (talk) 17:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request 14 November 2011

Since President Truman's middle name is simply "S" and does not stand for anything, I believe that, grammatically, one would omit a period after it, implying abbreviation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.28.133.40 (talk) 05:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

See the FAQ on this.--JayJasper (talk) 05:18, 14 November 2011

Lambda Chi Alpha

Why is his honorary membership in Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity no longer mentioned on the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.13.208.129 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 21 November 2011

Talk:Harry_S._Truman/Archive_3#Lambda_Chi_Alpha ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 16:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

not a peace agreement

Korean War Armistice Agreement

Harry_S._Truman#Korean_War states that "The war remained a frustrating stalemate for two years, with over 30,000 Americans killed, until a peace agreement restored borders and ended the conflict.<ref name="korwarstats">{{cite web |url=http://www.korean-war.com/miakia.html|title=U.S. Military Korean War Statistics |publisher=Korean-war.com |accessdate=July 26, 2007}}</ref>" This statement is contradicted by the source cited. The source at timeline1953 states that on 27 July 53 "The United States, North Korea and China sign an armistice, which ends the war but fails to bring about a permanent peace. To date, the Republic of Korea (South) and Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea (North) have not signed a peace treaty." Peace agreement is an incorrect term - see armistice. For the text of the thing see Korean_Armistice_Agreement.

""The war remained a frustrating stalemate for two years, with over 30,000 Americans killed, until an armistice ended the fighting." would not be contradicted by sources cited, and is also a more accurate statement. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 04:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)