Talk:Saint Nicholas

old stuff

Reference: : Nicholas of Monmouth (also Nikolaus) in Lycia, Asia Minor (lived c. 270 - 345/352), was a 4th century bishop and is a Christian saint. His feast day is December 5, presumably the date of his monkey. Does anyone know what this means? Is it just stupid vandalism? I'd like to know. Where he died —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.184.189.90 (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

monkey pie

Ban on chocolate cigarettes? Where? Do you have a source? --Dante Alighieri 13:08 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

http://www.dianawallismep.org.uk/news/2002/11/21002.txt.html Patrick 13:20 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

That's pathetic! It would make more sense to ban toy guns. Or, better still, toy cars, the biggest killers in our society (well, not the toy cars of course). DirkvdM 20:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to merge this page with the page titled Nicholas of Myra. Dogface 22:52, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Santa Claus at Christmas?

The article says that many catholics in the Netherlands have adopted the celebration of Sinterklaas at Christmas. That's new to me and I come from a Catholic Dutch background. Also, discussions about racist elements of Zwarte Piet I understand, but sexist? DirkvdM 20:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm Dutch (and living in the netherlands), and we definately don't celebrate Sinterklaas at christmas. I don't think the article says that, though: it contrasts the celebration of christmas with the Saint Nicholas celebration and remarks that in the Netherlands, the Sinterklaas festivities are more widely celebrated than in the rest of the world. I'm not sure about the catholics/protestant remark though: in the Netherlands, the Sinterklaas celebrations are not percieved as a religieus issue; both catholics and protestants take part. OTOH, I think Muslims don't generally celebrate Sinterklaas. Baszoetekouw 21:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I've readded the deloite survey about the number of people who celebrate christmas and St. Nicholas' Even in the Netherlands. The results of this survey were all over the news yesterday, and are most definately not nonsense. They are taken from the left figure on page 8 of the report, as well as yesterday's Volkskrant [1]. Baszoetekouw 13:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Page 8 of the report? Do you mean the supplement? On page 8, If you add up the figures, you get 98%. 98%?? The Volkskrant says that the popularity of Santa (not Christmas) is at 93%. What on Earth does that mean? Does it refer to how many people know about him? Or think he's real? Or celebrate his ... ehm, what really? Anyway, Santa is just a rehashed Sinterklaas. The report is really based on estimates of spendings (on presents or what?). Not about celebration. What ever this report says or is about, it has to be nonsense that 93% of people will celebrate Christmas. Almost half the Dutch are not religious. And then there is a bunch of Muslims and what have you. So 93% or even 98%?? I will visit my mother at Christmas, but that's not celebrating. And no-one I know wants to have anything to do with Santa. He's generally considered a fake in my experience. This report being as vague as it is, it can hardly be used as a source. Unless it is quoted literally, and I cannot find a quote that supports what is now in the article. DirkvdM 09:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

fair enough Baszoetekouw 20:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

In Holland, the people lament that Sinterklaas is slowly losing ground to Santa Claus, the global version of St. Nick. It turns out they need not fear, because Santa Claus is an American version of St. Nick grown organically in NYC. The famous Clement Moore poem 'Twas the NIght before Christmas'comes in a long Dutch tradition of writing poems for Sinterklaas. The year before that poem there was another poem about Santa Claus, and Washington Irving's satire on the History of New York goes on and on about how the old Dutch gentry of New York are losing their tradition and celebrating St. Nicholas not on the 6th as they should, but at Christmas time. Also, St. Nicholas is the patron saint of NYC thanks to the Dutch founders. Around 1800, there was a change in the celebration of St. Nick from being on a horse, in the Dutch tradition, to being on a sleigh, in the scandinavian tradition. The Dutch trading ships brought many scandinavians to New York for their lumber skills for ship repairs. The Washington Irving book was written to drum up support for tradtional New York sentiments in the period before the war against the British (war of 1812). The British were stopped at Sacket's Harbor, and otherwise would have come down the Hudson to seize NYC. Jane 16:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

St. Nicholas

A very reliable book that quashes common World-Wide myths has given me reason to believe that St. Nocholas was de-sainted in 1945 CE(Common Era).

Which book would that be? Baszoetekouw 20:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

In which case Santa Claus would have to become Mr. Claus. :) Actually, there shouldn't ba an article on him at all becuase he doesn't exist (hope this doesn't disillusion you :) ). More seriously, the article is on the saint and the myth, not on the mister. DirkvdM 09:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I have no evidence to prove that it applies to this case, but often when I hear people talk of saints being de-sainted or removed from the list of saints they mean simply that the saint has been removed from the liturgical calendar. That doesn't mean he is no longer a saint! LovingIt!

According to the Website St. Nicholas Center: "The 1969 Roman Catholic calendar revision did remove forty saints, but not Nicholas."

patren saint of tradition —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.184.189.90 (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

If that even is true St. Nicholas was only de-sainted by the Catholic Church, all Orthodox Denominations still call him a saint and therefore the title isn't worng.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.52.142.5 (talk) 09:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Prostitutes?

Is St. Nicholas really the patron saint of prostitutes, or is that just some old vandalism that has gone unnoticed so far? Baszoetekouw 09:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I added it afer reading it on a website. Can't remember which one, though. DirkvdM 09:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

It is possible because during his live St. Nicholas helped some jung girl not to take the bad way. But is it commonly admitted? Adrian from Lausanne 13:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Google "patron saint of prostitutes", with or without 'nicholas', and you'll find some sources. Whether these are reliable is always another matter. DirkvdM 08:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

St. Nicholas is the patron saint of prostitutes, because he gave money to the father of three daughters as dowry to marry them off. The girls were virgins and St. Nick kept them from prostitution. Jane 16:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't St. Mary Magdelene, as a retired service provider in this profession, be the more obvious candidate for this rôle? --carlb 19:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Mary Madgalene was not a prostitute, despite popular misconeption. This idea began with a statement by Pope Gregory the Great, but has recently been denounced by the Vatican. Eastern Orthodox Christians have never considered Mary Magdalene to be a prostitute. There is even a legend that Mary Magdalene lived so pure a life that the devil thought that it might be her who would give birth to the Messiah, so he sent seven devils to torment her (Mark 16:9). The Church does not name patron saints for unrepentant sins. While Nicholas and Mary Magdalene are certainly saints that prostitutes--and the rest of us sinners--can turn to for their intercessions, patron saints for trades are intended to encourage good moral behaviour. MishaPan (talk) 17:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I have also heard that he is patron of prostitutes, per Jane. And for what it's worth, this lists three saints, though none of them St Nicholas, as patron of prostitutes: [2]. And my understanding is that patronages are not restricted to those named by the Church; its largely a matter of popular devotion, just as many saints from the time of St Nicholas have not been formally canonized, but rather were acknowledged by popular acclaim and later accepted by the Church in her calendar of saints. I was able to find 2 sites on a quick google search which say he is patron of prostitutes. They aren't models of sourced websites, but I think matters of patronage are going to be like that, as a rule. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I watched a documentary about St Nicholas about 2 yrs ago. The 'patron saint of prostitutes' was mentioned. It was said that the prostitutes of the town would wash their stockings and hang them out of their bedroom windows, (now I honestly don't know if they would have worn stuff like stockings?!). St Nick would wander though the narrow streets in the early hours, stretching up to push a few coins into each stocking in the hope that the girls would be able to buy food for a couple of days and so would refrain from working. This is also how the Christmas stocking tradition is supposed to have originated. Seems plausible. I think whatever the truth, there is enough contemporary anecdotal evidence of his deeds to be able to say that he was a Christian in the true meaning of the word and was a pious, kind and just man. ¬¬¬¬ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.67.74 (talk) 23:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

In Bari, where I come from, St. Nicola is patron both of prostitutes and girls-to-be-married. I don't think this is officially in the canon books, it's more the popular tradition. In the crypt of the cathedral in Bari there is a short column (right next to the stair) which girls who want to find a husband are supposed to touch (with devotion!!!) to speed up the process :-)

64.56.251.222 (talk) 14:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC) EDIT: oh, he is also considered the patron of thieves, on the grounds that the sailors actually stole his remains - just before the Venetians did... Anybody knows there was a race between Bari and Venice about who would get the remains??? 64.56.251.222 (talk) 14:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC) when does st nick's day originate? please help — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.61.47.82 (talk) 17:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Splitting?

The article is getting a bit large. What about splitting it in two parts: one about the historical and religieus person, and one about the festivities and the holiday? Baszoetekouw 20:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I would love it if all the "Santa Claus" material was separated out. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Me too. The historical saint, and the folk mythology are two entirely different things. No intelligent person can think that the two are actually the same subject. MishaPan (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Mlouns (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of splitting the article, instead, we could divide the same article in a section for his historical persona and one for the religious character. About splitting out the Santa Claus part, I agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tauiris (talk • contribs) 02:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Minor: Byzantine -> Roman

The opening paragraph stated that he lived in the Byzantine Empire. The term "Byzantine Empire" is used to denote a split from the Roman Empire although those that use this term have no general consensus on when the "Byzantine Empire" began. However, the earliest that most say is when New Rome was founded (330 CE). This would have been only shortly before St. Nicholas' death. Since "Byzantine" is a controversial term to begin with, and since clearly at the time Nicholas lived the empire was still very unified it doesn't seem appropriate to use this term to desribe where he lived. --Mcorazao 17:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Christian mythology?

User:Str1977 has methodically gone through articles included in the Category:Christian mythology removing them. This article was one of those removed.Perhaps not in the interests of the non-indoctrinated Wikipedia reader? I have no opinion in this particular case myself. --Wetman 09:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If the "mythology" here is supposed to apply to the Santa Claus stuff, then yes, of course. The hagiographical material? Well, some of it would be difficult at best to prove as historical fact, and any believing Christian ought, if he is honest, accept that anyone not of his faith would have a difficult time taking it seriously. Even if it were all literally true, "mythology" in the technical sense of a sacred narrative certainly applies.

On the other hand, some people cannot get past the connotation of falsity associated with the term and view it as non-NPOV for that reason. I think this is a mistaken reaction. TCC (talk) (contribs) 12:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

But that doesn't make it mythology. Mythology deals with deities (in Christianity only one) or supernatural beings. In this case, Nicholas is a matter of history, but also of legend, but not of mythology (and with Santa Claus, it depends whether you are talking about the traditional "Nikolaus" still expected on December 6 in many countries or some Father Christmas (but that is not actually the scope of the article, is it?). So legend? Yes. Folklore? Yes. Faith? Yes. Mythology? No.

Wetman's claims are wrong (I have not systematically removed them but only looked through the category removing those I thougt, for various reasons, inappropriate - I can classify them on the Category talk page, if you want to) and that he mixes in his usual insults against other editors speaks for itself. But I guees he has systematically posted this on the affected talk pages.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 02:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You will find nothing in the definition of "mythology" that requires it be about deities or supernatural beings, although since they are sacred stories they generally contain supernatural events. [3] And they often are historical, at least in origin, with an accrual of legendary elements. The salient feature about a mythology isn't truth or falsity, it's that it's a set of related stories. ("Myth" in the sense of falsehood is common, non-technical usage, but that's not what we're talking about.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I never aimed at the falsehood issue. However I do insist on the difference between a myth and a legend. In this case we have legends but not myths. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 09:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Care to explain why, or are we just supposed to take your word for it? TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No, don't just take my word for it. Listing to my arguments.

Anyway, I have a question: Do you think that saints should be included in the category in general? If so, why not include the Category:Saints as a subcategory? It doesn't sit entirely well with me but I could accept that.

15:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I did read your arguments, and countered them. So I really wish you would listen to mine.

No, not all saints should be listed under this category, only those whose traditional hagiographies contain a significant body of connected stories. "Story" is key word here. Mere biographical details wouldn't suffice. A certain amount of antiquity is also required: documentation of incidents in a saint's life written from living memory is not mythological, but stories where their origins have been forgotten are. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't be considered mythology--we Christians don't actually believe that Santa Clause is real, or that Saint Nick comes on the night of December 5th and fills our shoes with candy if we're good. We just think that it is fun to make up stories and add a little magic in one's heart. Christians believe in Jesus and God--not mythology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.7.25 (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

"Christians believe in Jesus and God",emphasis mine.According to mainstream Christianity since the times of the Nicene Creed, Jesus is God;therefore writing what you wrote makes you either a non Christian or a haeretic.Either way you cannot therefore represent mainstream christians...;-)

"--not mythology" Your Bible stories is mostly a mythology;get over it and stop being so arrogant towards people of other mythologies or of no mythology at all...Thanatos|talk 13:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

US Celebrations

I must say that the coverage you have for the US is totally inaccurate. I'm not from Milwaukee, nor ever have lived close to it, but most of my Catholic and other high-church protestant friends celebrate St. Nick's day in every part of the country I have lived in (IL, CO, MI, IA). This should be rectified.

I'm from Cincinnati. It's mentioned in the article as being one of the towns where it's celebrated. That's accurate. Even in public schools here, the younger children would put their shoes out on Dec. 6th and have candy put in them. Millancad

I live in Toledo, and we celebrate it here a great deal as well.  hmwith  talk 16:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

All of the Above?

The Wikipedia articles for Plechelm and Willibrord each claim them as the patron saint of the Netherlands. The Wikipedia article for Nicholas merely claims him for Amsterdam, but it used to claim the whole of the Netherlands, and web pages elsewhere still do. I'm thinkin' that there should be a |cage match. —SlamDiego 18:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Rhetorical question?

I was looking through the article, and noticed this:

So was St Nicholas a working, albeit wealthy, man who complemented his day job with caring for his congregation, or was he a full-time bishop?

An encyclopedia is supposed to answer questions, not ask them. I'd advise rewritting this area in such a way that it shows that there are 2+ different theories. I'd do it myself, but I've been very busy as of late. Ghostwo 01:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Destroying pagan temples

The section on destroying 'pagan' temples, especially Diana's, in this modern age... really sounds like he destroyed some incredible art... almost like the Parthenon! Can we have some citations and sources with that? It seems to be a strictly a VERY catholic point of view presented here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pocketfulofseeds (talk • contribs)

New sections on the bottom, please.

I have to say this is not a tradition about him that I've ever heard myself. But if true, no, there was nothing else like the Parthenon. It remarkable for its perfect proportions ever since it was built. The temple of Artemis at Ephesus was remarkable for its sheer size, not its beauty. Beautiful pagan temples like the Parthenon got converted into churches. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

This is true, and I promise of uploading one of the icons showing him doing that (an Archeaological article is coming up on that very soon.) Caaygun (talk) 10:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

name

in the article Camauro they call St. Nicholas "St. Nicholas Thaumaturgos" and it liks to the St. Nicholas article is this right or this a diffirent saint i also found this ---------http://www.ets.ru/e/ut000026.htm please help so can find out if i need to correct anythingPaczilla007 22:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Zwarte Piet Racist?

I noticed the article says "[black people]feel offended by the Dutch slavery history connected to this emblem and regard the Zwarte Pieten to be racist." I don't think this is correct at all. Sinterklaas is supposed to have come from Spain, Spain used to be occupied by the Moors, so Zwarte piet is a Moor not a slave. Hence the moorish clothing. I reckon that since Spain was in charge of the Netherlanfs until 1580, the reference to being taken back to Spain by Zwarte Piet as punishment for naughty kids is a reference to the former (hated and catholic) occupier.--Klaaswynne (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Non-martyr

Under Deeds and miracles attributed to Saint Nicholas, the article states: "One unusual aspect of Saint Nicholas' life is that he lived to an old age and died peacefully in his own bed. At a time when most saints died for their faith in manners most unusual and cruel, this made him stand out, together with Saint Martin, who also died of old age." Then, under Formal veneration of the saint, it says: "As described above, while most contemporary saints earned their place in heaven by dying for their faith in manners most unusual and cruel, both Nicholas and Martin lived peacefully to a ripe old age. At a time of Religious wars and Crusades the idea that one could go to heaven, even become a saint, just by the way one lived instead of the way one died must have offered a great deal of consolation for the Medieval common folk. Therefore, this time made Saint Nicholas a 'popular' saint in every sense of the word, more than all his miracles combined." This whole train of thought really needs to be either cited or removed. It smacks of Original Research. Nicholas and Martin both came at the end of the age of persecution. A multitude of saints--particularly monastic saints--who did not die as martyrs are celebrated from this time forward. It seems strange to point out these two in particular, or to say that there was anything unusual about their veneration as non-martyrs. I'd like to edit or remove these statements, but would like input from others before I do so. MishaPan (talk) 16:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. It smacks of OR, and by a person who really does not know the field. Mlouns (talk) 16:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Signed At Nicaea verifiable?

Under the section titled Life the article claims, "Nicholas is listed as a participant in the First Council of Nicaea." Is there a source for this? According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "There is reason to doubt his presence at Nicaea, since his name is not mentioned in any of the old lists of bishops that attended this council." Anyone know what the source is that says Nicholas was there? Θεόφιλε (talk) 01:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I looked in Butler's, which says the same thing as the source about him slapping Arius; it records this as being "according to other traditions". This comes after it says that Methodius records St Nicholas being an opponent of Arianism in his diocese, "but says nothing of his presence at the Council of Nicaea in 325." How about I incorporate this to show that it is unsure whether or not he was there? Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I presume this is agreeable; it should improve the matter, so I will be doing it shortly. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Replaced image of statue at Demre

Old image of statue.

I replaced the old image of the Russian statue of St. Nicholas at Demre (right) with the one that is now at the bottom left of the article. The newer image seemed to be clearer, even though it shows less of the statue than the old one. I put the old image here in case anyone thinks it is better. MishaPan (talk) 23:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone put this on the main page, but it belongs here in discussion: It is not possible to have a "Russian Orthodox statue of Saint Nicolas" since the Russian Orthodox Church discourages the use of statues. The Orthodox encourage and support the use of two dimensional icons, truly venerating them as portals into heaven. DFS (talk) 05:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Wodan

What on earth does Wodan, Odin, have to do with Saint Nicholas, is everyone that has a big white beard connected to the One Eyed God. I can see the dwarfes relation to Norse mythology, but not to Hugin or Munin, nor the connection of flying reindeer to Sleipnir who DID NOT fly thru the sky. His name, according to our article, means "Slippery", "Smooth", "Gliding", which along with his 8 legs seems to indicate moving along the ground at a great and constant speed. The Valkyrie flew thru the sky. So, with all of this in mind, I'm deleting that bit of rubbish. Not to mention its lack of references and that its original research. Or rather it seems to be semiprotected, and I don't want to get an account again, someone who cares and has an account, delete the nonsense about his relation to the One Eyed Death God.

Yes, I agree. I'll remove it, and if anyone wants to re-add it with verifiable sources they are welcome to do so. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

WTF

what is up with the last paragraph of the intro? why hasnt that been deleted yet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.23.162.246 (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Canonization

I am confused - was he canonized, one paragraph says no, then several paragraphs later, it says he was?

Saint Nicholas - ...Nicholas was never officially canonised; his reputation simply evolved among the faithful, as was the custom in his time.[2]...

Saint Nicholas Day - ...The history of the festive Saint Nicholas celebration is complex and reflects conflicts between Protestantism and Catholicism. Since Nicholas was a canonised saint, Martin Luther replaced the festival that had become associated with the Papacy with a Christkind ("Christ child")... --Floridaoriger (talk) 09:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll add a fact tag, and remove this part if it is not rectified soon. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I removed the unsourced Luther paragraph. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

1 parg. is wrong for sure. 6 Dec is his official church date.--BBird (talk) 15:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Better delete Christkind too.--Wetman (talk) 07:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Dablink Saint Nicolas?

Should this article have a dablink going to Saint Nicolas (which is a disambiguation page)? The spellings are quite similar. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 23:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how likely it is that people looking for any of the Saint Nicolases are going to come to this page, so I'm not sure dab is needed. But it couldn't hurt to put it in as a see also, I think. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and put in in the see also. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Transition from European Saint to North American Icon

{{editsemiprotected}}

After November 1674 the British took control of New Amsterdam, and re-named it New York. The local children were aware of the tradition of Sinterklaas, but the new British children stumbled with the pronunciation. The name was slowly bastardized into Santa Claus. In North America the heavy European influence was still felt in regards to Christmas traditions, with German customs prevailing ( the wreath and the live tree ). Many Scandinavian traditions also were continued ( notably Gravad Lax). In the early 1930's Coca Cola was looking for a way to increase in lagging cold beverage sales in the winter months.

The artist Haddon Sundblom created the image we know so well now - and Coke does 80% of their business during the winter holiday season!

Uncledirty (talk) 11:30, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

What exactly do you want the article to be changed? Leujohn ^(talk) 05:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

 Not done, please clarify what needs changing and where, if anywhere, that information belongs in the article. Thanks ~ mazca ^t|c 15:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Obviously the original story of that commercialized freak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.123.238 (talk) 20:41, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction

Text says he died in 342, right hand column says 346. Which is it? Ringbark (talk) 21:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Ides of March

Text box on the right side of the page says he was born c. 15 February but then provides a link to the Ides of March. The Ides are indeed the 15th day of the month but not the preceeding month. In other words, the 15th of February should be the Ides of February, not the Ides of March. I have no specific knowledge of St. Nicholas to know which of the 2 is his correct birth date (15 Feb or Ides of March (15th)). I just recognized the discrepancy.

Anyone with more knowledge care to weigh in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billyshakes (talk • contribs) 16:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

interlanguage link

i put tr:Noel Baba, but maybe that should be a direct link on the Santa Claus page and here should be a link to what is presently a redirect, i.e. to tr:St. Nicholaus, in case the tr.wikipedia people eventually decide to split that page. At least we must have some link to the Turkish-language page. The newly to-be-appointed "president of Europe" according to our democratically-illegitimate (not voted by the people, and voted "please-answer-freely-until-you-say-yes" by the Irish) Treaty may be racist against Turkey, but that's no reason to support him by hiding NPOV facts. Boud (talk) 14:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed merger

I honestly cannot see how the article Saint Nicholas in Ukraine has any real chance of becoming a really useful separate article at this point. I propose merging it into this article, and then maybe, if the content here becomes enough for spinout, maybe then creating a separate article for it. John Carter (talk) 02:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. ANB (talk) 12:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge. Sinterklass deserves its own article. Saint Nicholas in Ukraine should be developed here until it is too large. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for bugging you a bit, Walter: The article you probably wanted to refer to is called Sinterklaas. On the talk page is a merge-proposal with this one. The Ukraine page (and perhaps others may be included there as well --Flederlander aka Patio (talk) 11:18, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Intro missing a sentence

The intro says

the three gold balls traditionally hung outside a pawnshop symbolize the three sacks of gold. People then began to suspect that he was behind a large number of other anonymous gifts to the poor,

but it is not clear what "anonymous gift" of "the three sacks of gold" this is referring to. AxelBoldt (talk) 22:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree:

For his help to the poor, Nicholas is the patron saint of pawnbrokers; the three gold balls traditionally hung outside a pawnshop symbolize the three sacks of gold. People then began to suspect that he was behind a large number of other anonymous gifts to the poor,

In addition to not making sense, it's also incorrect, or at least needs a citation. I've never heard of the pawnshop sign coming from St. Nicholas, I think the Medici/Lombardi origination is the accepted one. 67.247.0.183 (talk) 01:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Father Christmas

The American Santa Claus, as well as the Anglo-Canadian and British Father Christmas, derive from these legends.

The second clause (or Claus? ho ho ho) here is directly contradicted by the article to which it links - I think it should be removed. FC doesn't derive from legends of St Nicholas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.51.47 (talk) 11:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Confusion of Christmas traditions with St. Nick traditions in the US?

I'm a little perplexed by what is included in the section of the article discussing St. Nick and the United States. Some of what's there seems to be discussing Christmas traditions in the US in general (i.e. putting up a Christmas tree), and though those details are true for pretty much every person I know who celebrates Christmas around this country, I fail to see how it actually relates to St. Nick specifically?

See, I'm from Milwaukee, and everyone I know in the US in general who celebrates Christmas does the traditions the section describes, but only people who live near me actually acknowledge (or have even heard of) St. Nick's Day -- which they celebrate separately from Christmas, actually on St. Nick's Day (not Christmas Day). (Around here it's widespread enough that we would actually get candy from some teachers and the cafeteria ladies at lunch on St. Nick's Day in my public high school.)

If the article is trying to make a point connecting Christmas traditions in the US to St. Nick's Day traditions, that might be relevant, but is it relevant enough to replace descriptions of US celebrations of St. Nick's Day that are actually done in the German way (as the beginning of that paragraph describes)? I could've sworn the section used to be about that, so I'm not sure what the motivation for the change was.

24.167.233.42 (talk) 00:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Wee correction: St. Nick is not a German, but a Dutch tradition that may be celebrated in places with a lot immigrants from Netherlands. Only the name Santa Claus refers to Sinterklaas. The Saint Nick Eve's celebration is different among various families. Patio (talk) 17:03, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Macedonians

"through the feast preserved amongst Serbs and inhabitants of Macedonia, widely known as slava. Since the feast of Saint Nicholas always falls in the fasting period preceding the Christmas, feast is celebrated according to the Eastern Orthodox Church fasting rules. Fasting refers in this context to the eating of a restricted diet for reasons of Religion."

Is it sow difficult to say Macedonians instead "inhabitants of Macedonia" in your article about Saint Nicholas - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas. Or maybe you can change the term Serbs and Greeks in the inhabitants of Serbia and Greece ? I think that it's rely shame for Wikipedia to include politics in the article for the saint. There is no protection from the thruth ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zivdragan (talk • contribs) 11:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The miracle of wheat multiplication

This reads like it was written in a Catholic tract. Religious beliefs presented as historical fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.230.184.227 (talk) 19:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 11 November 2011

Santa is word for iceberg.

Santa Claus have meaning "from iceberg place, or place made off or contain iceberg". Searchable words: ledenjak ,santa leda ,glečer 217.171.129.69 (talk) 07:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the Santa Claus article, it is about Saint Nicholas, a 4th century saint. Ella Plantagenet (talk) 16:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Need a Santa Claus Section

There really should be something, a small dedicated section, that talks about Saint Nicholas's link to Santa Claus and Christmas, even if the actual cultural link might be more from Santa Claus to Saint Nicholas. And of course an html link to the Santa Claus article. Santa Claus is a huge cultural icon in many places around the world and is heavily based on Saint Nicholas. It is a pretty serious omission then to omit this heavy cultural impact of the saint. Theshowmecanuck (talk) 16:33, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I find this very, very offensive actually, along with the line " Further information: Christmas gift-bringer" inside the article. Sinterklaas has nothing to do with christmas, apart from being celebrated both by the christian church. Sinterklaas is a much more deep than the totally american, commercialized santaclause without any real message. Sinterklaas also tells about how one should behave, teaches many important morals.

Saint Nicholas in Germany

Hi, I'm from Germany, and in my childhood, St Nicholas was accompanied or replaced by his helper "Knecht Ruprecht", who wore a brown gown, not unlike the red gown of Santa Claus, and who carried the bag with presents and the much-feared rod. There is a famous poem by Theodor Storm about Knecht Ruprecht - here's an English translation of it: http://www.theodorstorm.co.uk/Life/knechtRuprecht.htm In my childhood we would not make a difference between St. Nicholas and Knecht Ruprecht, but call both "Nikolaus". Nikolaus would not only have a golden book with the children's good deeds, but also a black book, which supposedly listed when the children where naughty. If the children were naughty, he would hit them with his rod, if they were really bad, there was the threat that the kids would be put in the bag and carried away by Knecht Ruprecht (though this of course never happened). The children were very eager to show Nikolaus they were good children and say poems or sing songs for him. This would convince Nikolaus that the children were good and to give them presents. In big settings, like schools or kindergardens with lots of children, the children would just all sing songs together and would then get a present. And the "Stutenkerl" in my area (North Baden) was called "Dambedei". Before the 2nd world war, the Dambedei, apples, nuts or maybe oranges would be the only gifts the children would get from Nikolaus. Can anyone please add some of this to the German section? Thanks. --Thinkerbelle (talk) 19:52, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Saint Nicholas in Ukraine

St. Nicholas, Sviatyi Mykolai (Святий Миколай), comes to Ukraine on December 6th (or the 19th in the Orthodox Julian calendar). It is a happy day with visiting and sleigh rides. Schools have plays telling Nicholas stories and the saint visits local churches. Dressed as a Byzantine bishop, the good saint is often accompanied by angels. He quizzes children on their catechism before giving gifts. St. Nicholas Day is the main day for gift-giving, though gifts are also becoming associated with Christmas Day. Today many Ukrainian churches have St. Nicholas celebrations to help children understand that the holy man Nicholas came long before Santa Claus.

Please add Ukraine to the list of counties that honor Saint Nicholas!!! More about St Nicholas in Ukraine here: http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkPath=pages/S/A/SaintNicholas.htm

Thanks --68.36.49.223 (talk) 15:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)