Talk:Beer

carbonation in primitive times?

AFAIK, gastight packaging of drinks is relatively modern, dating back to Napoleon's regime. so, would primitive beers have been noncarbonated? i see the part about drinking a thick, gruel-like beverage through a straw which suggests this is the case, but the question of carbonation isn't directly addressed. Gzuckier (talk) 19:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Beer is a fermented product - carbonation is a by-product of fermentation. Beer has been stored in wooden casks for the bulk of the history of beer. Most casks are metal these days, though Sam Smith and Wadworth still use wooden casks. These wooden casks are quite capable of holding the natural carbonation of beer - though, until the recent development of forced carbonation, drinkers preferred the beer to be served flat - so in the UK, where the tradition of drinking unfiltered beer remains, the practise of releasing the carbonation from the cask before serving it, continues. SilkTork *^YES! 16:12, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Pale lager

This is a small problem, but in the introduction and in the lager section the article seems to imply that lagers are only pale. While pale lagers are undoubtedly the most popular and prevalent, there are a variety of darker lagers, from Festbeer to schwartzbier. It is perhaps worth changing the article to note that many lagers are in fact dark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.251.100.65 (talk) 16:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I feel there is a distinction made in the article, and also there are images of dark lagers. SilkTork *^YES! 09:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 75.128.22.229, 30 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

the word "civilisation" in the history portion of the article should be corrected to its correct spelling of civilization

75.128.22.229 (talk) 04:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

 DoneSpitfire19 (Talk) 05:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Since this article uses British English, "civilisation" is correct. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 18:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

It is doubtful that Beer is the world's oldest alcoholic beverage

This article begins with the statement that Beer is the world's oldest and most widely consumed alcoholic beverage. It is likely that mead (Honey Wine) was created accidentally and consumed, and then purposefully well before beer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.85.194.241 (talk) 01:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Never heard from the ancient greeks drinking wine? --62.93.99.121 (talk) 18:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

In response to both questions: you're right that this is debatable, and the article should reflect that. However, while it's possible that the earliest fermented beverage was honey- or grape-based, the evidence does lean towards beer preceding both mead and wine. First, it's true that the earliest written references to beer date back more than 8000 years, and are among the earliest examples of written language anywhere, but that's pretty indirect evidence. Regarding grapes, the earliest solid evidence of wine-making dates to about 4500 BC, a millennium and a half after that of beer. For honey, the earliest actual chemical evidence from pottery in Europe is associated with the Beaker culture, dating to 4,000 years ago, give or take a few centuries. Also, as a brewer I can tell you that honey isn't an ideal fermentable: it's a natural bacteriostatic, and is mostly deficient in many of the nutrients necessary for yeast growth. A good gruel, on the other hand, if made from a grain that has begun to germinate, can be easily colonized by wild yeasts and/or bacteria and begin to ferment. Interestingly, though there's chemical evidence of both rice-beer and a rice-honey beverage (which today would be considered a braggot, a beer-mead hybrid) being brewed in China around 7000 BC. Honey is more fermentable when a nutrient source (like those found in rice or barley) is added, so this could suggest that once beer was invented/discovered, mead wasn't too far behind. That's pure speculation, of course. – ClockworkSoul 22:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed the change in the opening. I've put it back to oldest, as that is what the source said. I just quickly added two more. I'll find an accessible scholarly source later, and replace all three with that. I have a vague memory of once before having several cites for that statement - though it may have been for something else. SilkTork *^YES! 17:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Silk. The evidence puts beer up as a major contender for the title of "world's oldest beverage", but it's not definitive, since finding ancient beer vessels doesn't preclude the possibility that there may have been mead before it, and a source that says otherwise is coming to a conclusion that's not supported by the available information. So really, while the evidence is leaning in the direction of beer being oldest, we can't be sure unless we find a tablet that says something like "hey guys, I invented this thing called mead, and it's almost as good as beer". – ClockworkSoul 22:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC) (post-signing after forgetting earlier)

My searching has tended to be somewhat narrow - "beer oldest beverage" and such like, and my reading in the subject has also tended to be subject focused - I read books about beer, rather than books about mead or cider or wine, and come upon statements in these books that beer is the oldest. Having just done a search for "mead oldest beverage", I note that there are counter claims. So, unless we can find a super authoritative source which has examined all the claims, the opening statement does need adjusting. SilkTork *^YES! 18:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm looking for something else, and I come upon this. I agree it does need further looking into, though I do happen upon statements like that as part of my beer reading, so I have come to feel that beer is the oldest alcoholic beverage. SilkTork *^YES! 18:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm really a beer guy, and am pretty much the same in reading habits, but when replying to the OP I found a papers supporting both. Whichever beverage came first, though, it probably beat the other by a relatively short amount of time (but both almost certainly pre-date wine and other fermented beverages). The fact is that we can't say with any real certainty that beer was pre-dated mead, even if the practical issues I listed above make it more likely than not. I propose we re-add the "probably". – ClockworkSoul 22:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you take out all references to "oldest alcoholic drink". There is no good evidence about what is the world's oldest alcoholic drink, and since both honey (when watered down, which happens naturally) and fruit will ferment naturally, while beer will NEVER occur naturally, it seems very unlikely humanity discovered beer before mead/wine. It certaoinly isn't possible to say beer is "probably" the oldest alcoholic drink. Those references offer no evidence other than claims. Zythophile (talk) 22:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC) (comment edited Zythophile (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC))

Note 83

Can't find anything about 'freeze-distilling' in the link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.237.176 (talk) 15:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Nrhine1, 24 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} In the History section, "The Ebla tablets, discovered in 1974 in Ebla, Syria and date back to 2,500 BC, reveal that the city produced a range of beers, including one that appears to be named "Ebla" after city."

should have a "the" between "after" and "city"

Nrhine1 (talk) 22:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

 Done —fetch·comms 23:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Brewdog has just released a 55% alcohol beer.

Also, some discussion should be devoted to the difference between percentage by volume and by weight, and the conversion of these two numbers. In several states, including Oklahoma and Utah, it's illegal to sell chilled beer that is over 3.2% ABV. To get beer of higher alcohol content, one must go to a "liquor store" or "package store", which, in the case of Utah, are all owned by the state. At these establishments, the beer, wine, and spirits are sold at room temperature. Also, federal law states that no alcoholic beverage over 4% ABW (alcohol by weight) may be labeled as Beer, thus the rise of the term "Malt Liquor" to denote high alcohol American-style beers. This is also why many microbrewed beers sold by the bottle are labeled with their style, such as Pale Ale, Stout, Porter, etc., rather than with the word "beer". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.216.18 (talk) 16:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

That is an interesting point about the selling of beer in the USA. Should we have a section about beer in different parts of the world, so we can cover location-specifics such as this? Similar to how beers above 10% are usually marketed as barley wines over here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.35.235 (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Category:Alcohol measurement holds articles that talk about alcohol measurement. There's an article about Alcohol by volume, though not one about ABW. I think there is a need for an overall article about alcohol measurement. This article wouldn't really be the appropriate place to start that, as this is about beer, rather than alcohol measurement.

And articles about alcohol laws America are here: Category:Alcohol in the United States - with the main one - Alcohol law in the United States. SilkTork *^YES! 17:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Packaging Information

There is significant information missing on how beer is packaged. The article says, "it is packaged either into casks for cask ale or kegs, aluminium cans, or bottles for other sorts of beer." It does NOT say what a six pack or a case is.

I was reading this article trying to determine whether cases of beer always have 12 or 24 cans. If so, I wanted to know what to call a package with 30 cans. Raeyin (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I remember buying cases of 20 biers while stationed in Germany. 20 lovely half-liter tasty brews....ah, memories! --averagejoe (talk) 01:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Beer is not made from fermented starches

The article states that beer is made from fermented starches but the "starches" are first converted into simpler carbohydrates (mainly maltose) by enzymes in the mash before they can be fermented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.180.235 (talk) 00:29, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Number three

Which is actually number three most drank beverage in the world, coffee or beer? Both articles state they are the third most consumed.68.105.34.219 (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia beer can

What does that picture add to the value of the article? I think nothing. Also, it's quite misleading, as I had thought someone had actually made such cans, rather than computer-generating the picture. I'd propose removing it. --A. di M. (talk) 22:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it doesn't add anything to the article. Also, as its based on the Wikipedia logo, its probably not allowed due to the Wikimedia:Trademark Policy and Wikimedia:Wikimedia visual identity guidelines. I'm surprised that image is actually on Commons in the first place, and hasn't been deleted. --Vclaw (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Beer produced by freeze distillation

I don't think a beer can be freeze distilled. As described in the distilled beverage article, the product of freeze distillation would be a liquor or a spirit. Can a beer also be a distilled beverage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.64.145.22 (talk) 21:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

If you distill beer, you get malt whisky; distill wine and you get brandy. Freeze distillation wouldn't work with beer because the water content is so high; it would simply freeze.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Eisbock is a style of bock beer that is commonly freeze distilled and commonly agreed upon as a style of beer. You can check http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style05.php#1d --38.97.128.9 (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• The IP is mostly right but this requires some clarification. Of course, you can't make beer from scratch by distillation. However, you can effectively fortify both beer and wine by freeze distillation. Although normally, fortified wine is made by adding brandy, freeze distillation is also used with some varieties and as the IP points out is standard with some beers, particularly Eisbock. (It is not the process used for ice wine, which involves freezing to increase sugars before vintning).--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 20:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Lager

"Lager is the English name for cool fermenting beers of Central European origin"- except it is the German name which is also used in English. 124.169.153.64 (talk) 12:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

French beer tradition

This article shockingly omits France in its list of beer-producing countries. It happens to be the 5th largest national production in Europe with 16.8 million hectoliters (2004). My source for this figure is the French wikipedia page "bière". Eastern and northern France have very strong traditions of local beers as well as of larger breweries. Pensées de Pascal (talk) 21:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Benl2391, 28 May 2011

In the year 2011 the popular phrase 'Have a Nice Beer!' emerged in the leeds area of the UK Benl2391 (talk) 02:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

• No, that's not going into the article. Drmies (talk) 02:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

beer is nasty

beer is stupid — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.169.129.233 (talk) 01:40, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Anxiety and Insomnia

I've been living with Anxiety, and insomnia now for a while. My therapist keeps trying to get me to take drugs like hydroxyzine, which according to Wikipedia could potentially give me Tardive Dyskinesia, and other drugs which can give me psychosis and other illnesses. So I research Alcohol, and it looks like, according to Wikipedia, that if I were to drink one beer a night just to sleep, and maybe a little in the morning to take the edge off, I would be fighting cancer, diabetes, heart problems and improving my mental capacities. Why don't therapists just prescribe a person to drink a beer for their anxiety and insomnia instead of giving them other deadly poisons? This article is amazing, I am going to start drinking. Thank you. 50.47.138.64 (talk) 10:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Husk as a source of amylase

The article states that barley is frequently chosen as the starch source for beer because of it's husk. This is true, but only because the husk acts as a filter during lautering. I don't believe the husk is a source of amylase. In fact, the husk is composed of dead plant tissue -- it cannot synthesize any enzymes. The original author of this section seemed fairly sure of the dual purpose of the husk, but it is only to aid filtration during lautering. In fact, wheat has the same husk, but humans selected it to thresh free long ago. We were never able (or never wanted) the same adaptation in barley, so it ends up in beer, while wheat goes in bread. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drummstikk (talk • contribs) 05:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

hi beer is bad for you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerlee12lee (talk • contribs) 09:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from MPCurley, 16 September 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} In the "Production" section, it is stated that Anheuser-Busch and InBev merged to become Anheuser-Busch InBev. In reality, InBev acquired Anheuser-Busch outright. The sentence should be changed to read: "InBev was the second-largest beer-producing company in the world,[68] and Anheuser-Busch held the third spot, but after the aquisition of Anheuser-Busch by InBev, the new Anheuser-Busch InBev company is the largest brewer in the world." Refer to the following press release: http://www.ab-inbev.com/documents/press_release.pdf

MPCurley (talk) 19:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Done  Chzz  ►  01:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done

Strong Beers

The strongest beer in the world is Schorschrbräu Schorschbock 57% finis coronat opus with 57.7 % -> http://lautering.net/blog/2011/10/07/schorschbraeu-wins-back-title-strongest-beer-the-world Brewdog can't claim that they have strongest beer done by fermentation as no beer yeast is capable of fermenting a single batch that high. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.17.5 (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing two things - the strongest beer, and the strongest fermented beer. Furthermore, there's a difference between claiming something and having a claim proven. Brewdog [claim to have brewed the strongest fermented beer in the world], though I can't find anything other than their own assertion to back that up (and [coverage of their press release]). As for the strongest beer, that rather seems disputed, since [this] suggests a 60% ABV where your link is 57.7% (of course both are stronger than BD's end of the world). Personally I don't really see how any of these freeze-distilled products can still be considered 'beer', but that's another debate. -- gsyhiap (talk) 14:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

What about Pilsner style?

Does Pilsner style merit its own section, or should it just be considered a pale Lager? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.77.78.1 (talk) 19:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Legal Definition?

Is there a legal definition of what a beer is? That is to say, how low could the alcohol content go and still be called a beer? And should it be mentioned? Kiltpin (talk) 11:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

UK Law contains a definition used for duty purposes:

"Beer" includes ale, porter, stout and any other description of beer, and any liquor which is made or sold as a description of beer or as a substitute for beer and which is of a strength exceeding 0.5 per cent.

— Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/4

Of course this sounds rather circular (beer includes ... any other description of beer?!?), but nonetheless that's what's on the statute books. I couldn't comment about other countries. -- gsyhiap (talk) 15:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

so how healthy is alcohol?

the article starts the health section with 'benefits of alcohol'. but the supporting studies are only statistical, they look VERY weak. someone seriously needs to explain how drinking a toxic substance works to make you 'healthy'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.85.14.106 (talk) 11:48, 26 October 2011 (UTC)