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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 41.151.71.56 (talk) at 11:39, 5 February 2012 (→‎blame). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Task Force 88, Special Forces Assault

During the cource of the siege members of the US and UK special forces were sent to Mount Carmel to 'observe and advise' the FBI and to help bring about an end to the situation. The 12 special forces men, 2 British SAS and 10 US Delta (Combat Applications Group, 1stSFOD-D) were part of Task Force 88, a top secret counter-terror unit. On the last day of the siege senior government officals approved the use of TF88 in storming the compound instead of using the FBI HRT unit with was 'fatigued and under strength' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.255.196.165 (talk) 18:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


FBI Sniper Plan

I replaced this in prelude to the raid (28 Feb 93):

At least a week before the assault, the FBI had considered employing snipers to "eliminate" David Koresh, and other "key" Davidians(ref)((cite book|last=Churchill|first=Ward|coauthors=Jim Vander Wall|title=The COINTELPRO papers: documents from the FBI's secret wars against dissent in the United States|publisher=South End Press|date=2002|isbn=9780896086487|page=lxxix))(/ref).

with this in the siege section before the final assault:

One week prior to the 19 Apr 1993 assault, FBI planners considered using snipers to eliminate David Koresh and possibly other key Davidians.(ref)Lee Hancock, "No Easy Answers: Law Authorities Puzzle over Methods to End Branch Davidians Siege", Dallas Morning News, 15 Apr 1993.(/ref)

for reasons that should be obvious. Naaman Brown (talk)

This never happened "in" Waco

As always someone has to correct the media. This event never happened in the city of Waco Texas. Instead, as listed, it was Mount Carmel. Do not confuse the two. I have lived here all my life and in no way did this nor anything like this ever happened here. The article should be changed to say The Mount Carmel Siege 15 miles from Waco. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leeme 1958 (talk • contribs) 19:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:COMMONNAME, articles use the most common name that appear in reliable English language sources. You could also read Talk:Waco_Siege/Archive_3#.22war_in_waco.22, an older discussion of names. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Waco siege per consensus and guidelines, no consensus to change title beyond capitalization. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 01:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Waco Siege → Waco siege — Page title is not a proper noun and should be changed per WP:CAPS. Also interested in discussing whether this is the best title per WP:COMMONNAME. Woodshed (talk) 06:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This page should be moved to Waco siege per WP:CAPS, as "Waco Siege" is not a proper name.

But I'd also like to bring this before editors to discuss if there's a better name for the page. There was a non-robust move discussion in 2006 — see Talk:Waco Siege/Archive 1.

I'm wondering if there's really one "common name" phrase in the public consciousness that describes this event.

Terms like Ruby Ridge, Heaven's Gate and Jonestown all became synonymous with the government/private conflicts that made national headlines. I don't think, in this case, Mount Carmel (the compound location — not in Waco) really did. Nor Branch Davidians, though I'd guess more people could recall the latter if asked. Most probably refer to it colloquially as "Waco" (or maybe Waco incident).

The problems with the article title, to me, are:

  • It wasn't in Waco, it was located in an unincorporated area well outside the city — Mount Carmel. (Full disclosure: I live in Waco.)
  • It may not have been a siege (some have suggested that's NPOV), "a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by attrition or assault." Is standoff or something else a better word here?

Googling combinations of Waco / Mount Carmel / Branch Davidians, and words like "siege," "standoff" and "raid" (probably the three top contenders), I'm not overwhelmed — or even whelmed — by any clear trend.

I have no strong opinions, I hope it's clear. Article titles to consider might be Montana Freemen, YFZ Ranch, as well as the aforementioned Ruby Ridge, Heaven's Gate and Jonestown. If I had my druthers, I would vote for Branch Davidian standoff or Mount Carmel standoff for consistency (using either the name of the group or the location of the incident in the title).

Ultimately, it may be, as WP:TITLE says, "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." Woodshed (talk) 05:35, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would say keep it as it is. Here, in England, the most common name for it is Waco Seige.
A quick search for news items has these, BBC, Time magazine and The Independant being a mix from UK and US independant media news sources The Waco Siege Feb. 28: Sent into a Deathtrap?, World: Americas Koresh and the Waco siege, The Waco Siege: Cult suicide could damage Clinton: As the Branch Davidian stand-off ends in tragedy the authorities face questions about their handling of the cult and 1993: Waco cult siege ends with inferno for example give this title in the headlines.
As for the capitalisation of the header "Seige" - if the common name for it is in fact Waco Seige, in caps, then I suppose that would be as it is now. The problem is that the most commonly used name, in an internet search result, is in headlines which tend to all be capitalised. Maybe that is what people remember rather than the body of the text lowercase seige.
I look forwards to the discussion  :¬) Chaosdruid (talk) 12:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care to use headlines as a metric, what with "Waco" being conveniently only four letters. I think I lean toward "Branch Davidian standoff" or something similar, but if concrete evidence can be found that "Waco siege" is overwhelmingly more common, I'm not inherently opposed. Powers T 13:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I see little evidence of this being a commonly used proper noun for the event. I think probably a few media sources used the term "Waco Siege" simply because it grabs your attention more than the sentence-cased version. –CWenger (talk) 02:43, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Doing a search in Google books finds 7 to 1; 1,580 for "waco siege" and 227 for "branch davidian siege". It is normal, I believe, that the published sources be used for that sort of count, but here are general internet searches :-
searches in Google:
"branch davidian seige" 113,000 [2]
"waco siege" 109,000 [3]
"branch davidian conflict" 80,200 [4]
"davidian massacre" 52,700 [5]
"waco massacre" 39,200 [6]
"waco tragedy" 20,600 [7]
"mount carmel siege" 473 [8]
"waco conflict" 212
"mount carmel massacre" 100
Searches in bing:
"Waco Siege" 12,400,000
I stopped as this number seems to be wildly inaccurate compared to Google
From this I can only assume that it should be Waco (followed by something). The issue for me is that the book sources are far more heavily weighted towards Waco at 7:1.
As for the problem of using the word "siege" v. "conflict" v. "stand-off" I see it as two-fold.
First, conflict implies just that and there was no real conflict per se.
Second, stand-off implies two sides just waiting (as per Collins English dictionary "2. a deadlock or stalemate 3. any situation or disposition of forces that counterbalances or neutralizes) - there was no counterbalance as the authorities had armoured vehicles so 3. is out, but a deadlock is so vague that to say "Branch Davidian stand-off" (stalemate/deadlock) could mean anything, even their arguments with the Davidians.
I think that siege is still the best term of use as per the overwhelming reputable sources giving several answers with a more than adequate use of "surround and wait for surrender" or "prolonged attempt to gain something" :-
Definitions of siege:
MSNEncarta [9]
1. military operation: a military or police operation in which troops or the police surround a place and cut off all outside access to force surrender ( often used before a noun )
2. prolonged effort: a prolonged effort to gain or overcome something
3. tiresome period: a prolonged and tedious period
lay siege to something
1. to besiege a place
2. to make a persistent attempt to gain something
Macmillan [10]
2 a situation in which a group of people surround a building in order to protest about something or to force the people inside to come out
Police surrounded the house for a 12 hour siege.
state of siege:
The town was in a state of siege (=people could not leave or enter it).
Hundreds of students laid siege to the American embassy.
Collins English dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
1.a. the offensive operations carried out to capture a fortified place by surrounding it, severing its communications and supply lines, and deploying weapons against it
b. ( as modifier ): siege warfare
2. a persistent attempt to gain something
3. a long tedious period, as of illness, etc

aside: Waco Siege or Waco siege

Waco TX is not alone in unwanted notoriety. The Lillelid murders usually link to Greeneville TN simply because Greeneville was the nearest large city and was the location of the trial (even though the murders occurred in a rural area off Highway 81 when a Goth cult from Pikesville KY carjacked a family from Knoxville TN in transit). The Lillelid murders have become commonly associated with Greeneville. The raid on Mt. Carmel Center has become commonly associated with Waco.

The article has been entitled "Waco Siege" since it became an article 12 Feb 2006 and the events (ATF raid 28 Feb 1993, FBI standoff 1 Mar--18 Apr, FBI gas-and-tank assault 19 Apr) have been referred to as as a "siege" and as the "Waco Siege" in other media.

PBS - "chronology of the siege" ABC News - "the Waco Siege" TIME "The Waco Siege"

Changing a WP name long established, esp. if the name is commonly used in reference to the event elsewhere (Waco Siege, Colfax Massacre, Hindenburg Disaster, Reichstag Fire), ought not be done lightly.

A valid conflict could be the fact WP style is Capital Location lowercase event regardless of usage in other media. The events in the WP article "Colfax massacre" created 28 Mar 2004 are referred to as "Colfax Massacre" in other media (such as discussion at a lawyer blog of a recent book Charles Lane "The Day Freedom Died" 2008). Same with the WP article on "Reichstag fire" usually referred to in other media as the "Reichstag Fire". Similar WP "Hindenburg disaster" or Hindenburg disaster is commonly referred to as the "Hindenburg Disaster" elsewhere. Naaman Brown (talk) 14:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should use normal sentence casing as per Wikipedia convention unless there is near universal usage of another style in reliable sources. I don't think "Waco Siege" meets this threshold. Also, we should keep in mind that some of these sources might always use mostly-caps style in their headlines, so if they did refer to it by the same name in the text they might just use "Waco siege", but it's impossible to tell. –CWenger (talk) 16:07, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well no it is more than possible, I have included those links above for just that purpose :¬)
I do not want to start giving numbers though - it will be clear to all who go and look that the WS and Ws are used in headline and in body of articles respectively. Chaosdruid (talk) 18:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see in any of those articles where the term "Waco siege" is used in a sentence, not a headline. They do refer to the "siege" (not preceded by Waco) with a lowercase s, but I'm not sure how informative that is. –CWenger (talk) 19:45, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking maybe you were clicking on the second set of links rather than the first set ("A quick search for news items has these" and "Unfortunately for you Waco residents"). Mostly they use "siege at Waco" in the body, although the BBC one [11] also uses "Waco siege" in the headline.
Yep, you're right. –CWenger (talk) 20:24, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

recent edits on Waco siege

Editor IP 76.186.27.145 added the last two paragraphs 23:53 6 Feb 2011. Ckatz excised the addition 07:50 7 Feb 2011 with comment (Uncited). The paragraph left standing was also uncited.

The applied standard appears to be that incriminatory accusations against the Davidians can stand uncited, but exculpatory evidence requires citations and all the rules on verifiable sources considered reliable.

===Child abuse allegations===
Reports from Joyce Sparks, an investigator from the Texas agency responsible for child protective services, stated she had found significant evidence that the allegations of child abuse were true in her visits to the Mount Carmel site over a period of months. However she said the investigation was difficult as she was not permitted to speak with the children alone, nor was she permitted to inspect all areas of the site.
California and Texas CPS had both conducted investigations into abuse charges and in both cases returned the children citiing a lack or no evidence of abuse. In both investigations Texas and California removed the children for interviews and examinations with cooperation of the Branch Davidians. It should be noted that the citation above is extracted from a largely discredited DOJ report on the aftermath of Waco and failed to note that Joyce Sparks statement was her's only and not offered on behalf of or in concurrance with the Texas CPS report. The Texas and California CPS investigation report findings were not included or cited in the DOJ report. ATF Special Agent David Aguilera used Sparks statement in obtaining the warrant granted by a federal judge that lead to the Waco incident but omitted the CPS reports and conclusion in his request for a warrant.
The warrant application repeated allegations of child sexual by Koresh. The State of Texas' child abuse investigation was featured prominently; but BATF failed to inform the federal magistrate that the child abuse investigation had been closed for lack of evidence April 30, 1992, nearly ten months before the assault on Mount Carmel Center.

The Waco siege article should be kept factual to avoid becoming either a whitewash or a conspiracy theory. If you add to the article, please cite a verifiable, reliable source; if you believe an addition to the article requires citation, use the [citation needed] flag and allow reasonable time for the addition to be properly cited. Adding without citation and deleting without noting citation needed are equally discourteous. Naaman Brown (talk) 12:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

COD Dayland Gent

I am restoring cause of death of Dayland Gent to stabbing, the official government COD, from the edit of 23:53 25 Feb 2011 by Moparchris with comment (Autopsies: changed stabbed to shot in relation to shootings.)

"Autopsy records indicate that at least 20 Davidians were shot, including five children under the age of 14, and three-year-old Dayland Gent was stabbed in the chest." Kristina King, "The Waco Incident", investigative documentary.

"Dayland Gent, Mt. Carmel Does 33 and 47 B: The Autopsy Report for Mt. Carmel Doe 33, identified as three year old Dayland Gent, tells us nothing about the conditions under which the remains were recovered. "The body is presented to the county morgue secured in a blue body bag . . ." Dayland is said to have died of a stab wound to the left chest. .... According to official recovery map (Remains Recovered from the Concrete Room), the first set of Dayland's remains was picked up on April 22, and given the number Mt. Carmel Doe 33. Then, according to the same map, more of Dayland Gent's remains were picked up with Mt. Carmel Doe 47: the Identification Matrix lists Mt. Carmel Doe 47 B as Dayland Gent (though there is no autopsy for 47 B)." Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum: Dismemberment and Agglutination

Since 1993-1994, COD of Dayland Gent has been listed as stabbing from sources citing the original autopsy report; there is no evidence to change it to shooting now. If there is evidence that Dayland Gent was shot rather than stabbed, one should present citable reliable sources. Naaman Brown (talk) 12:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

David Koresh is mentioned in the inroducion only as Koresh, but it makes no menton of him prior to this

David Koresh is mentioned in the inroducion only as Koresh, but it makes no menton of him prior to this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.186.215 (talk) 04:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

apparently the first mention of David Koresh was deleted, leaving only a partial followup mention of "..Koresh himself". Added full name and linked to WP article. Naaman Brown (talk) 18:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Number of Deaths

The introductory paragraph states that 76 people died in the fire. The section "The Final Assault" states that 75 died. Could someone find which is correct and rectify this? Peng1pete (talk) 01:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There were 74 dead identified by name. Some accounts count the two pregnant women as four deaths. Some accounts count the unnamed foetus miscarried in the fire as a death, but not the unborn foetus. 74, 75, 76. Depends on definition of human life. Naaman Brown (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Davidian Strength (Info Box)

An edit to the info box Strength of the belligerents added to the Branch Davidian side (revision 9 Jan 2012, comment (Since when has 6+4+74+9=75?!))

Those are total numbers from Casualties and Losses 6 dead in the raid 28 Feb 93 4 surrendered 28 Feb 93 74 dead final assault 19 Apr 93 9 surrendered 19 Apr 93

On the four surrendered 28 Feb 93 my notes show: 1993 Feb 28 "A tape was sent out of MCC with two old ladies, Catherine Matteson and Magaret Lawson, and two young boys." The 4 surrendered include 2 children.

The 74 dead includes the children who died that day. Eighteen were age 12 or younger. Four were 1 year old. Four were 2 year old.

Since we are adding children and infants to the strength of belligerents in the info box, there were nineteen additional children surrendered during the siege in Mar 1993, which would make the belligerents present at the 28 Feb 93 raid 6+4+19+74+9 on the Davidian side. --Naaman Brown (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Blame and responsibility

Who is to blame for this tragedy? --41.151.71.56 (talk) 11:38, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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