Talk:Rave

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External links discussion

Does anyone else find that raveclick.com link a bit self-aggrandizing? There are plenty of rave resources on the net that have built up very strong communities - from alt.rave and the early xx-raves mailing lists through to message boards all over the world. I'd remove the whole paragraph but i don't want to step on any toes as an anonymous user. -- Anon

Definitely, I moved regional links into their own section and pruned the rest of the links down to 3. Hyperreal, Old rave FAQ, and the ODP directory (which actually includes the regional links). ∴ here…♠ 06:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the Xmuzik link adds anything to the article, and think it's just in there for self promotion... The site doesn't seem to have any compelling or informative content. The same user added the link to a number of other electronic music articles today... I think it should be dropped. Barron64

Untitled comments

You do realize this article is supposed to be about the party, not the attendees, right? -- John Owens 06:50 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Hmm, I see raver just redirects here, so maybe that's not such a bad thing. -- John Owens 07:22 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, and I would suggest using the "Show preview" button option, rather than making over a dozen separate edits one right after the other. -- John Owens 06:53 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

this page needs to be wikified in a major way. For example, hater should have its own page. Kingturtle 02:07 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

159.204.59.24, you really should get a login account. It would be easier to communicate with you. Try to keep your writing in this article specific to Rave parties themselves. Extra information about bands and the history of music can be written elsewhere in wikipedia. Kingturtle 03:12 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

Shouldnt it have a more neutral description to start offwith? It seems to focus on the USA - I didnt even know there were raves in the USA, I always thought it was a predominiantly Europe phenomenon, places like Ibiza and Manchester spring to mind. Htaccess 06:45 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

This page seems to contain a lot of opinion regarding differences between raves and nightclubs. For example, "[nightclubs] attract the pre-existing dance music crowd, are 21 and up, and often sound more like commercialised radio stations than a continuous mix of international electronic music, in an positive atmosphere. The combination is apparent in the fights and hostile attitudes that often occur in nightclubs. Fighting or arguing of any sort is extremely rare at raves." I have been to both raves and nightclubs in the San Francisco area, and while I would agree with some of the opinions expressed here, nightclubs are described with an inaccurate generalization. Contrarily, I could point out that nightclubs are closely regulated and must obtain various permits to operate, whereas raves are often unlicensed. I have been to clubs without witnessing any violence, whereas I have seen persons carried away from raves due to drug overdoses. bneely 07:31, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Htaccess that this page seems very US-based in a lot of ways. It certainly seems to miss out on the huge number of illegal outdoor events which go on every year throughout the UK and Europe and are more in the spirit of the original raves than anything else. Although as the article does say the term rave seems to be a mainly US thing nowadays.

Also agree with Bneely - the only inherent difference in clubs vs. raves is their legality. Either or both can be dangerous, commercial or containing overdose victims. This bit is opinion and should be rewritten. spiralx 09:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I forgot to point out that I thought the "commercialised radio station" phrase is an inaccurate generalization. From locale to locale, the musical content at any type of venue is bound to vary. Also, what do people think about creating pages to describe clubbing and raves in different cities/regions? For example, there could be a page about California (perhaps split into northern and southern california), New York, Detroit, Berlin, London, etc. These pages could help point out regional differences and also cross-reference these locations' roles in dance music and culture. I'm just not entirely sure that such a breakdown would work and would be appropriate here. bneely 08:26, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why not just add a section at the end that says that the term rave has fallen out of use outside the US and link to Free party and Teknival instead? Those already contain all of the information about the current scene over here... spiralx 12:14, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of this article, although I have to agree that it seems far too specific to US rave culture. Whilst the origination of many forms of music in the US (and the vibrancy of the US rave scene) are not disputed, I don't think that terms such as "candy ravers" and "PLUR" are particularly relevant outside teh US context, and the article seems to represent them as if they are constants within dance culture worldwide. I will have a think about it over the next few days, and hopefully do some editing on teh areas (UK drum and bass / garage raves / free parties) that I do know about. Will Lakeman 23:56, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - it's quite U.S-centric ... a lot of the culture is borrowed from U.K /European culture... they've been banging it since 1987 - There's a lot of rave issues yet to be outlined - max rspct 00:07, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My issue isn't so much to do with where it originated or was borrowed from (most of my favourite records played at UK raves were from Detroit, via Belgium) but I think the article needs to reflect that raves are different in different countries. I think the US/UK axis of discussion should be avoided for the same reason - a raver in germany or Holland would probably not agree that US or UK rave cultures are more important that their own.

That said, I'd really like to change the emphasis on candy kids - I know plenty of people who still go to raves that wouldn't identify with that aspect of it at all. In fact, they' would probably freak out if they saw these kids at all. Will Lakeman 00:29, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(Katefan0)I seriously think you are in error with the last revert. That sentence doesn't really make any sense at all. I'm not going to fix it back, but just try reading it and realising that it's grammatically awful. If you really have to have seperate sentences for some conceptual reason, just redo the whole paragraph, don't just leave it so it reads like someone just spat a full stop into there.

Anyone else have thoughts (I realise it's a *very* minor change, I was more to gain information than make edits, but I have a penchant for SPG).--Kyle Dantarin 17:06, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Whoops, Kyle -- I apologize, but you're completely right. For some reason when I read the diff initially, I mistakenly read that YOUR change was the one that split the sentence and obviously made it terribly ungrammatical. I've reverted back to your version. Sorry again! · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:10, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Lol, and now I feel like I over-reacted. Hehe. Np.--Kyle Dantarin 18:53, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Notable raves series

I propose deleting or moving this section, as it's just functioning as a linkspam magnet at the moment. Check all the anon IP edits for details.illWill 20:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea. I have no personal knowledge of notable raves really, so I had just left it alone other than copyedits. But you're probably right. · Katefan0^(scribble) 20:25, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

I recognize many of teh Uk ones, and they certainly are notable, but I watch this page and I notice that anon IPs keep adding links to US raves (esp. Salt Lake City) that are currently advertising events. Strikes me as a bit dodgy.illWill 20:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I looked through the current list, and all but one have been established since at least 2000. Five years running seems sufficiently notable to me, do you have another standard you'd prefer to use? · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:22, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

I think it might be an idea to delete most of the list - if you include any rave that has been running for five or more years, the list could be hundreds of items long. I'm just worried that this page is becoming a linkspam magnet.illWill 18:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Added criteria to page comments requiring age of at least 5 years. Single events could theoretically qualify if occuring in 2000 or before. This should help. Exceptions are, of course, possible.. but should be presented here first. ∴ here…♠ 16:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favour of deleting the notable rave section entirely. I think it adds nothing (except length) to the article. Rex the first 23:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree... several of the series are quite notable of their own right, what we should be doing is putting very strict guidelines as per what belongs so as to reduce the size. (anything with its own article should be staying) ALKIVAR™

01:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am still unsure. I'm worried that what seems to make notable raves in Europe are ones that have a website and are still going. If put up stricter guidelines that might help but in the UK alone we had:

Amnesia House, Biology, Dreamscape, Eclipse, Energy, Fantazia, Genesis, Jungle Fever, Hacienda, Helter Skelter, Perception, Quest, Raindance, Spectrum, Sterns, Sunrise, Time, Universe, World Dance

All of these are notable and have a right to be added but if someone comes up with guidelines that rule out most of these then that would help. Rex the first 16:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cited in independant literature for a start, though further requirements would still likely be needed. In the meantime, I suppose we could listify it (ugh!), but I would also love a good alternative. This article needs some references anyway, who has some good books / articles on rave culture? I like it in the article, but would reluctantly agree with Rex if reasonable guidelines cannot be decided. ∴ here…♠ 18:09, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well I certainly have a large collection of published "rave history" books... the problem becomes many of them list one off events as well as long running series... Perhaps we should instead spin off this section to "List of noteworthy rave series" ? (Not too sure what a good title would be). ALKIVAR™

19:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think there was only one J18 / Carnival Against Capitalism and one Castlemorton (but Castlemorton was significant in the UK). There were three "xs 2 the ravezone" and four "Heaven On Earth" raves so I'm not sure where you start calling one a series but there are definatly enough to have as a separate section, of which I am in favour. Rex the first 01:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hrm, series to me defines multiple events, same name, same promoter. And spin-off things like the International Love Parades would count as a series, even though the other countries are run by other promoters... ALKIVAR™

02:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean we need to delete all the one off's (even important ones) and does that mean we agree to, quoting here… listify it? Rex the first 01:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oneoffs dont count as a notable series... so I would say yes... no one offs even if they are notable. perhaps the spin off list could include notable one offs as well. I think List of noteworthy raves with a Series section & a One-off section would be a very good compromise. ALKIVAR™

00:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved it over, should there be a short section at the top of List of noteworthy raves?? Rex the first 17:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nice one ALKIVAR, the intro looks good, I have changed rave party to a link. Rex the first 14:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Types of ravers

I'm going to reword this section, and indeed much of the article, to stress that much of the view of 'rave' as a distinct culture proceeds from the US. Here in the UK, there are house, drum and bass and garage raves (amongst others) and the scenes actually have very little in common with each other in terms of style, philosophy, anything. Furthermore, the raver dress codes that are mentioned here are bizarre, to say the least, as are the references to baby ravers and raveness - I juts don't recognise this stuff from my own experinces.illWill 5 July 2005 23:17 (UTC)

As long as you don't eliminate information, but rather add to it. Just becuase you haven't heard of it in the UK doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere. · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:41, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't planning to remove any information - I just don't think its good Wii style for the dress code of a small minority of a subculture to determine members of a global group. I'd actually like more material on different rave scenes (India, Thailand, Israel, Australia) hence the geographic bias tag. Also, I used to live California, and have been to a number of big raves in Asia too, and I've never seen any "jungle raver dress codes" involving wooden beads, which is why i find that paragraph so odd.illWill 18:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it could use some geo-massaging. I personally know nothing really about raves except what the average person in touch with pop culture would know. My involvement in this article was through the Wikipedia:Cleanup Taskforce. Go nuts · Katefan0^(scribble) 19:02, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

The term "rave party" is a bit old-fashioned outside of the US anyway I'd say. Outside of the US you'd have clubs, squat parties, free parties or outdoor parties instead of raves nowadays spiralx 15:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Section on rave crackdowns

It seems like there might be a need for a section on rave crackdowns by police (reasons/examples/criticism). This could include the RAVE Act, the recent Utah bust, and Czechtek. Any thoughts? 68.17.158.184 10:52, 22 August 2005

I think that anti-rave actions, including specific busts, are notable and should be mentioned, as doing so would fulfill part of the purpose of the article, which is to educate the reader about what raves are: a certain type of event that is a product of, reaction against, and integral part of society and culture. As such, raves have their share of proponents and detractors, and this fact should be noted. But to delve too deeply into the reasoning behind the anti-rave actions and what criticisms people have about them sounds to me like it would be inviting a lot of speculation and bias into the article. If undertaken, it would have to be done with very careful wording. This article tends to attract a lot of anonymous editors who don't show much concern for keeping it encyclopedic. Perhaps start here on the talk page by creating a list of anti-rave topics to mention. — mjb 21:17, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to dig up some websites of organizations that oppose raves. (I found some at anti-drug.com, the US DOJ website, and the Australian Broadcaasting Corporation.

In Britain, there is the Anti-Social Behaviour Act [1] (bbc), which is used in a similar manner to the RAVE Act.

For more sources, EMDEF has a large listing of news on cases against p--Kyle Dantarin 15:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)romoters/clubs (US only, I think). mazatapec 22:19, 22 August 2005 (CST)[reply]

I'm not at all part of the rave community but I am deeply disturbed by the crackdown earlier this month in Utah of a permited rave by swat officers. This needs to get out to the public. I'm sure you guys all know about it since most people editing are probably part of the community, but just in case you don't, go here [2]. This is scary stuff, but then again, this is nothing compared to what we do in other countries.

The point about stereotypes

I don't know who put this here, and I think it should have been on the talk page, but it's a completely valid point. I don't rave, I've never been, but I do understand the culture and the ethos. Wrt the ecstasy scene that so often accompanies raves, the whole idea is to promote a different, non-judgmental and accepting atmosphere compared to standard nightlife culture.

Now I'm not saying that every single rave is of this type, on the contrary, but I think a large number of ravers would agree that stereotyping is not what raving is about. Tagging people for amusement "we're HARDCORE RAVEBEASTS!" is one thing. Cutting people into categories for derision is not what raves are about. --Kyle Dantarin 15:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the following ALL CAPS quote from the Types of ravers section in the article:

THIS SECTION OF THE ARTICLE COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS 
THE ETHOS OF THE RAVE CULTURE BY STEREOTYPING PEOPLE WHO ATTEND RAVES.... 
IT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.113.3 (talk • contribs)

I have no problem with the section as it contains widely used slang associated with the scene. The word rave itself could be considered equally as sterotypical as opposed to free party or other similar terms. I'd keep the section, but it appears consensus may indicate otherwise. ∴ here…♠ 21:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

POV?

"These early raves were called the Acid House Summers. They were mainstream events that attracted thousands of people (up to 25,000) to come, dance and take ecstasy."

Anyone care to back this up?

I cant back up the naming "Acid House Summers" but I can conclusively prove events of up to 100,000 people from late 1987 through 1992 in the UK. ALKIVAR™

10:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, i meant to draw attention to the italicized words. "Take ecstasy". Coming and dancing, that's whole point, yes. The ecstasy claim though, that gives the impression that everyone was coming to take drugs.

'Rave party' or 'Rave'?

I notice that Rave redirects here. I don't know what is convention in the US, but in the UK nobody I have come across uses the phrase 'Rave party' any more. Not only is it a bit of an old fashioned term, but this article covers more than just parties, but the whole idea behind raving and the 'rave culture' as well. Would anyone object if I put copied this article to the Rave page and put a redirect on Rave party? Thenugga 12:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

removing external links to regional community

time for the (now 22) community links to go. replacing with link to Open Directory: Society/Subcultures/Rave/Regional. Please discuss and/or consider this a soft ban regional rave sites. ∴ here…♠ 07:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why were the links moved? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.60.48 (talk • contribs) 00:15, February 21, 2006 (UTC)

See WP:NOT - wikipedia is not; collections of external links. 22 links (and growing rapidly) was way out of hand. Check out the open directory project at Open Directory: Society/Subcultures/Rave/Regional for a nice index of regional links. ∴ here…♠ 02:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reverts over Evonews's text

One of the most important developments in Wales in the early 2000s was The Evolution Experience series of events which, along with numerous others in the Wales and Bristol areas of the UK, seemed to buck the trend of the stagnation of the late 1990's.

Hello everyone. I notices that theres a revert war brewing over the recent edits. Perhaps everyone should discuss these changes here on the talk page. Aloha, Steve-o 14:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Evonews looks very well-intentioned; just needs to read a bit more wikipedia policy. While I don't find this particularly compelling as worthy of inclusion -- it is no worse than the rest of the 2000s section. Anyone feel like rewriting the whole thing? I also removed the recently added raver's manifesto, perhaps warrented if accompanied with a published source. ∴ here…♠ 22:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am currenty working on the best way to provide published sources regarding important developments in Wales in the early 2000s, perhaps someone can help me regarding the best way to get newspaper articles//TV coverage regognised when it is not readily available as an online source. I have lots of online sources reference big legal battles with the authorities over the Evolution Raves, and also there was an interesting case called "The Ali-G Trial" which was covered by the national press, including The Times. Furthermore, an important legal case at The Royal Courts of Justice Administrative Division took place in 2003 in relation to interlocutory injunctions and how they have effected the dance-scene in Wales. However, I havent got this far yet. Also I know that once The Evolution Experience is on Wikipedia there will be many editors and contributors, but we need to start somewhere! Help! user_talk:evonews 02:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like you want to write an article like Wales rave scene in the 2000s? Perhaps wikinews? There has been some interesting stories from the USA as well, check Dance_party_broken_up_by_police_in_Utah,_USA and all of the work put into that. However, that doesn't warrent an article here on wikipedia about the promoter or the party. ∴ here…♠ 05:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I can quote a source: Ministry Magazine, Page 149, August 2002 Issue :

CLUB OF THE MONTH EVOLUTION EXPERIENCE, Terminal One, The Park House Centre, Haverfordwest

Since August 2002 the Evolution Experience crew have dominated the West Wales club scene. Their circus-style events have graced many sea-air-saturated venues in this area, and continue to go from strength to strength. We’re talking a 40k PA system, organomorphic visuals (Que? – Ed) and a light show that would have any hardened clubber reaching for their sunglasses. The combination of police check points near tonight’s venue, the warehouse-style main room and the whistle-wielding clientele give Terminal One a back-in-the-day vibe, of which we heartily approve. No detail has been spared by young promoters Thomas and Declan: the 40ft inflatable chill out church outside is pure class, as is the fun-fair and “bucking penis ride” (don’t ask).

The sun is still setting behind us, as Dave Pearce kicks off a ridiculously early 8pm-10pm slot, but the tunes are hard enough to have an already manic crowd jumping for joy. The anthems are flowing as quickly as punters in the 2,000 capacity hanger, and we’re soon down the front getting busy. Things fall into place upon the arrival of rave-master Slipmatt. He’s definitely most at home here, complementing the feel of the night by whipping the punters into a frenzy.

Lisa Lashes follows and is as mesmerising as ever, as much an attraction for her superstar DJ persona as her spinning talents. But Terminal One is a night that really belongs to the residents, a tight-knit family of hard dance lunacy that you’re as likely to find along side you on the dance floor than on the decks. The big names were gone by midnight, but the sounds gain velocity, each rezzie taking a half hour turn while the others jump around on the stage area inciting the masses. If you can beg, borrow or steal a copy of their video, you wont regret it.

You cannot deny raw talent, and the Evolution Experience crew are a force to be reckoned with, so call the number above, find out about their next event, get a car full and go West."

user_talk:evonews 02:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

main article picture

surely someone has a better picture that can go on this article. the current one looks like a regular nightclub event. does no-one have access to a nice shot of a field of ravers in the early morning sun or something from one of the parades? --MilkMiruku 10:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Split

This article needs to be split. It doesn't represent a worldview, and it doesn't provide the analysis, history and breakdown of the British rave scene circa 1987-1992 I had hoped for. It just starts off badly for me: "rave *is*". In the UK, it's "rave *was*". Nearly 20 years ago! --kingboyk 01:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be fine to add more to the history section, and split parts of it off into separate articles if the amount of information warrants. As for whether rave "is" or "was", that's one of those subjective questions (kind of like the question of when punk died, if ever). --Delirium 07:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Yes, the article is messy and mostly written by people without sufficient experience (until recently it was under the article title Rave party), but I regularly go to 'raves', which are sometimes promoted as such, sometimes not. The definition might have changed a bit, but rave still is, promise! Nuge | ^talk 13:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would recommend writing the history and breakdown of the British rave scene circa 1987-1992 into the article -- it will naturally split if it becomes too large. Until then, your point is moot. Don't forget to cite those sources! ;). ∴ here…♠ 01:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i think the bit about the glowsticks and lightshows is a bit weird.. its not really like that ppl dont do 'lightshows' its just that someone likes to move a light cos it looks cool on e and other ppl watch it for the same reasons. the article makes it sound a bit like some people are the 'lightshow providers' and go around doing this service. and the bit about how it can reduce the effects of ecstasy wtf?? no! and why would you want to REDUCE the effects anyway? has a raver even written this article.. the real reason ppl like to wave glowsticks etc is because when you are on e the light leaves a 'trail' behind it as it is moved that can be seen for a short while after the movement has taken place (those photos are quite good in showing this) and its kinda cool - thats it!

Shameless promotion

I removed the following paragraph:

But more importantly, the rave scene has become its own culture rather than just a "party" term. Vibrant groups of like-minded individuals have united in the "underground" dance scene to form raver communities that share the same ideas that the raver community was built upon in the 1990's: Openness, Acceptance, and Positivism. A prime example of this culture would be the tight-knit community based out of New York City built around the Raveclick.Com website. Founded by Despina Simegiatos, the web site was created as a way to educate and keep people informed about the underground rave culture and scene bubbling beneath the Five Boroughs. Comprised of dancers, DJ's, producers, promoters, and fans of electronic dance music, the site has attracted over 1,400 members to its message board and has become a central hub of the New York rave scene while still retaining a core of friends who share the same ideals and desire. Other examples of such communities are NewRaveOrder.com (which is more focused on the New England and Northeast raves and features over 2000 members) and EuphoriaProject.org (which is focused on raves in the Southeastern region; primarily the Florida state area). These communities will strive to keep the rave scene and its culture alive and well in big cities across the United States.

Please don't use wikipedia to promote your websites people! There are 100s of such websites and groups around the world, none of the sites mentioned is influential enough to warrant a mention in a general article. --Brentt 11:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]