Talk:Bryan Fischer

Attracting attention

The article claims that Fischer has often attracted attention with his comments at public events or in print.

If that is challenged, a good example is "AFA: Medal of Honor Only Awarded For Being Gay In the Line of Duty Now" (at Wonkette). Tama1988 (talk) 10:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

"Feminization" blog entry

If this blog entry ever vanishes, a copy may be found at www.webcitation.org/5uKYCsvCp. Tama1988 (talk) 11:07, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Wow. I've not seen such a reaction since the glory days of Adequacy.org. Is everyone certain that he's not an agent provocateur? 71.248.115.187 (talk) 02:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Superior alternative to this article

After doing a little work on this stub (which isn't bad, but isn't good either), I noticed User:Milowent/Bryan Fischer, the draft of a better alternative. Although some things in this article are better. I've invited Milowent to work on this. Tama1988 (talk) 11:15, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The more the merrier! Having an article on this guy seems like a better situation than not having an article on this guy. When a user comes across his name, there ought to be a place to go that explains him. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 11:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

PoV

But it was described as "a vast wasteland of stupid."

Wiki shouldn't express a PoV, but I think it can honestly express others' PoV.

Of course there's always the matter of balance. If I'd noticed news sources that by contrast praised Fischer's proposal for the acuity of its sociological critique, I'd have added references to these. Tama1988 (talk) 03:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

In truth, wouldn't it be better to let the man speak for himself? That is simplier and cannot be challenged. If we do not hew very closely to NPOV, this page will fall apart into a bunch of sniping. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 05:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you have a point. But of course there are tens of thousands of bloggers; this person is mildly notable as a blogger for being read and generating reactions from more well-known websites (e.g. MoJo or TPM) or bloggers (e.g. Sullivan). So we must at least link to some of these reactions.

I'm not sure though that he has got any notice in what passes for hard news other than that one CBS story. (He claims that he has, but Google News doesn't provide support for this.) So his notability as a blogger is marginal. And I can't see any notability elsewhere. So all in all I wonder if the page will fall victim to AfD rather than sniping. Tama1988 (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's give it a go and find out. There was once a page, but it got deleted for notability. Somehow, on some mainstream sort of source, I heard of the guy. I looked here to find out about him and found nothing. It seems we ought to have something for people in the same situation. Since he seems to say something outrageous just about every day in his blog, I question if we ought to have an endless stream of his latest pronouncements. (But then, how can we exclude them?) Paul, in Saudi (talk) 08:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

BIAS tag

I happen to come upon this page. While here I noticed the page is loaded with POV, with lots of things in quotation marks, and with a single section, other than References, entitled Controversy. It even had WP:BLP violation/s. Is the only thing encyclopedic about this guy controversy? There's nothing else that could be added to produce an encyclopedic page instead of a single controversy section? The application of Wiki rules is sorely needed on this page, and I made a few changes, but it's too much for me alone. Therefore, I am adding a BIAS tag to attract other editors to assist and to advise readers of the situation, the very things for which the tag is intended. The tag will say that it should be left in place until the dispute is resolved. Please respect that direction. Thanks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 23:49, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm hard pressed to see any notability of this person other than the reaction to his frequent expression of his views. Or in short his notability (if any) is a matter of points of view. (Of course I am willing to believe that there is much more to him that hasn't yet appeared in the article.) I think that either the article needs to summarize and link to this material or it should be deleted. Of course, even if the article is retained, the content should not be sensationalized. Tama1988 (talk) 02:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering the exact same thing. Deletion might be an option. I'm an inclusionist. But I'm not sure this page is wikiworthy. I see the page was created with this note: "02:44, 18 November 2010 PaulinSaudi (talk | contribs) (2,087 bytes) (OK, let's try again to have a page on this fellow, he is constantly in the news.)" Is "constantly in the news" enough? If so, I should get a Wikipedia page. No joke. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:00, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Somebody could always have a go at writing you up.

One thing about Fischer: the expressions of his views that get him in the news (or at least into the blogs) are not slips of the tongue or unrehearsed answers to current affairs TV anchors' questions. He chooses to write them up in his blog, and then he chooses to leave them there. And he's putting himself forward (or the AFA is putting him forward) as a public figure. If Wiki has an article on him, this is arguably unfair to other people who lack articles but have, excuse me, legitimate and even compelling claims to greater notability. However, it doesn't seem unfair to him. Tama1988 (talk) 05:19, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I use that same LAEC joke all the time. You're the first I've seen to use it other than me. Thanks! Why not nominate the page for deletion, not speedy, and see what happens. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:45, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Half of me wants to see it deleted and half does not; see below. (What I really want deleted or anyway eradicated is not the article but ... no, perhaps I shouldn't say.) Tama1988 (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I can see both sides of it. I heard about this guy and wondered who he was. There was no article. If a person wants to know who this guy is,, it is part of Wiki's mission to tell 'em. Now who is this guy? A professional rabble-rouser, a guy who purposely says silly things to get attention, I suppose. So maybe it would be best to not give him bandwidth. All in all, a very short page is called for. Just tell a reader this guy is an AFA blogger who says silly things. That about covers it. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 06:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I see your point and agree with it. But think of all the people like this guy. Wikipedia could get filled with thousands and thousands of pages that really would not improve on a Google search. Would you be opposed to deleting the page, following the proper course of action to do so, of course. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's really a matter of American civilization as amplified by the new bully pulpits of talk radio and the web: that great nation does appear to have thousands and thousands of people who vent their strong if not always well-informed opinions and are then paid at least fleeting attention. Pardon my immodesty, but I think the article is actually better than a list of Google hits, even if the main reason for this is simply the enormous degree of mirroring and automated bulk-quoting that goes on among many of the pages that appear in the list. OTOH, perhaps "PDFTT" is better applied not only to editors but also to subjects. Tama1988 (talk) 03:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Forgive me, but what does "PDFTT" mean? And this looks related: Notability in Wikipedia. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather not spell it out here, but Google will quickly show you. Incidentally, I'd like to congratulate all the participants in this talk page for its welcome absence of trollery. We don't all agree all the time, but we can disagree in a constructive way. (Sanity rather than fear is being retained.) Tama1988 (talk) 02:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

O! TU! --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Not having a page on this guy seems unacceptable to me. But reprinting everything he writes also seems silly. We ought to give him five lines, lock the page and never look at it again. But of course, that is not the Wiki-way. We have a usable page on Peter Sprigg, why not this guy? Paul, in Saudi (talk) 08:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not saying it should be this or that. Rather, it may benefit from the communal application of various guidelines or policies, including those for notability or deletion. Curiously, we know this page was started by you because you hate the guy so much. "Now who is this guy? A professional rabble-rouser, a guy who purposely says silly things to get attention, I suppose. .... Just tell a reader this guy is an AFA blogger who says silly things." That's not a problem, I suppose, but it may indicate Wiki policy was not applied in the first place and may be needed now. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I see Peter Sprigg has 2 publications. That might be part of the difference. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, I am willing to be corrected by the consensus. I still think it is a legit page as people may want to know who this fellow is. I do not hate this person. I have never even met him. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 13:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay. To get more eyes involved here for building consensus (and hoping to attract people experienced in these notability/deletion/save page issues, because I am not), I'm going to readd the BIAS tag. It was removed by a guy harassing me so much he just got an indef ban. Cool? Hopefully more will join us. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

You might consider starting an RFC it that fails; bias tags don't usually attract attention. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I don't recall if I've done that before. Um, let me check with the folks above if they would also like to do that. I don't want to step on anyone's toes. Really, I mean that. I'll go leave a comment on their Talk pages. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Wait, you said "if that fails". So I'll wait before I do what I just said. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 14:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Protected

Rather than throwing a collection of blocks out, I've protected the page instead. The length is a month, but I'll quite happily unprotect it if those involved can sort out their squabbles. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:28, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Good. We are deciding in the section above [and now below as well] whether to delete the page entirely. I hereby invite you to join in. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

American Family Association now officially on SPLCs anti-gay hate group list.

Please edit the article to include that the AFA is now on the Southern Poverty Law Center's official hate group list (see: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/under-attack-gays-remain-minority-mos).Mykelb (talk) 01:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

There's a "Donate" button right on that page. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

It also says, "Double the Value of Your Support; Make a gift today and it will be matched dollar-for-dollar with our Year-End Matching Challenge." --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:42, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

That aside, this article is not about the AFA. If this information belongs anywhere, it belongs in the article on the AFA.

Incidentally, if inclusion of this or similar information about an organization were justifiable (and I am not here talking about any particular organization), then the organization might I think be reasonably termed homophobic. Wikipedia has a category for the job: Category:Homophobia. However, in a surprising contrast with categories on other phobias and discriminations, the introductory text for that category warns editors: This category is for issues relating to homophobia. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly homophobic. Ah, the phobia that dare not speak its name! Tama1988 (talk) 03:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

Looking at this now, I don't think the tag is appropriate. If Fischer is notable, he's only really notable for his extreme and somewhat disturbing views. So if he is to have an article, it will necessarily be slanted towards his his wacky pronouncements. I would be more tempted to replace the neutrality tag with a "notability" one. Black Kite (t) (c) 21:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree. I placed the original BIAS tag because the article contained only a criticism section. As the discussion has progressed, the issue of notability has predominated. I agree with Black Kite that the tag should be changed. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:09, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Is he notable outside his position at the AFA, and if not could his article be merged there? I know he's already mentioned there, as I fixed the section about him the other day. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:01, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I honestly do not know. I only happened on this page, and seeing it had only a controversy section, I applied the BIAS tag. I know nothing else about this guy except what I have been reading since being here. Honestly, this page doesn't tickle my fancy. I'm just trying to be a good Wikipedian -- see a page with only a Controversy section -- add a BIAS tag -- you know, that kind of thing. I sure hope other people get involved here and do the right thing. But if you merged into AFA, and left a redirect, I doubt anyone would complain--or even notice. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 00:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

OK - tags switched. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:30, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Perfect. It has been a pleasure working with you. This is especially noticeable to me as on another page where I placed a BIAS tag (for the page being an advertisement) I'm being called a troll, a vandal, etc., by the same people protecting the page for a very long time. Really, thanks to you and the other editors here working on this. Pleasant working conditions is like a breath of fresh air for me. No need to respond. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:33, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

What a coincidence! Look what Tama1988 just wrote above: "Incidentally, I'd like to congratulate all the participants in this talk page for its welcome absence of trollery. We don't all agree all the time, but we can disagree in a constructive way. (Sanity rather than fear is being retained)." --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:05, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Searches for the subject establish notability, so I will remove the tag. if LAEC believes that he lacks notablity then he should recommend an AfD. LAEC earlier expressed concern that the article was not neutral. In fact, people who take controversial stands will attract criticism, so there never was any POV issue. I notice that the proposal to merge this article into the American Family Association links here when it should link to the AFA article. Therefore I am changing the link to the correct article. TFD (talk) 03:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that was short lived. To my friends here who just agreed we are working so well together, unfortunately, that's over. TFD has just joined us. Despite our working together, indeed despite Black Kite's effort regarding the neutrality tag, TFD singles me out ("people who take controversial stands will attract criticism, so there never was any POV issue") and removes the tag ("Searches for the subject establish notability, so I will remove the tag"). No consensus needed for TFD. No AGF needed either. Friends here should know TFD makes ad hominem statements about me regularly and was part of the group that recently precipitated a WP:LAME incident that resulting in my being banned until someone finally figured out what was going on. He is part of the reason I sincerely thanked you for our working well together. Please, as he makes persistent personal attacks on me, please do not let it sway you, and let's all keep working well with each other. Thanks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

No problem with the notability, if he is indeed notable, but I think any merge should really be discussed at the subject's talk page; that's only my view, though. Black Kite (t) (c) 07:32, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

The procedure for Merging says that the discussion thread should be in the article that will be merged into. I think this is because there may be multiple articles involved in the merge and the merged-into article would be the major article for the topic. TFD (talk) 14:46, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Medal of Honor controversey

Fischer actually stated that he believed that Giunta deserved the MOH. In the original article he said "it is entirely right that we honor this kind of bravery and self-sacrifice" and "we rightly honor those who give up their lives to save their comrades. It’s about time we started also honoring those who kill bad guys," and said in subsequent articles that Giunta deserved the award. I changed the article to reflect that, though if anyone can word it better, that would be appreciated. Gtbob12 (talk) 19:45, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Sections on views

Views which do not have secondary sources are probably not significant. This is not intended to be a mirror the subject's website, which is already linked fro the article. I suggest that those views which are not referenced in independent sources should be summarized more briefly, perhaps a sentence each in a "other views" section.   Will Beback  talk 

Several references from a People for the American Way blog were removed under the spurious claim that they violated SPS and BLP. I've just restored them. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The miscreant should be horsewhipped. So... is PFAW RS? Lionel (talk) 09:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Insofar as they're a prominent organization, their reaction to Fischer's comments would seem to be noteworthy. On the other hand, I just re-read WP:RS, which does warn against "partisan secondary sources", so in the interest of maintaining best practices I'm going to revert myself (and look for mention of these quotes in other sources). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I've added tags to three sections that don't have any 3rd party sources. I'm sure we can find such sources for some of those views. If we can't then we should delete the material.   Will Beback  talk  20:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree. [1], [2] (Turkish) , [3] are the best I could find on the "Gays gave us Hitler." view, I'll let y'all fight out whether they're reliable enough, but I figured I'd pass 'em along. Sullivan is an interesting source to me because he's never been very party-line, even when he ID'd GOP. --joe decker^{talk to me} 20:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, came up entirely empty on the other two. --joe decker^{talk to me} 21:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I searched the Proquest newspaper archive for ["Bryan Fischer" + "Native Americans"], and there's not a single relevant hit. For ["Bryan Fischer" + "Illegal immigr*"] I found just one relevant source:

• Bryan Fischer, director of issue analysis for the American Family Association, a national conservative Christian organization in Tupelo, Miss., said, "What my evangelical friends are arguing is that illegal aliens should essentially be rewarded for breaking the law." "I think it's extremely problematic from a Judeo-Christian standpoint to grant citizenship to people whose first act on American soil was to break an American law," said Mr. Fischer, who hosts a daily radio show on which immigration is a frequent topic. [..] (To which Mr. Fischer responded, "We don't want to break up families, so let's help them all return to their country of origin.")
  • Obama Wins Unlikely Allies In Immigration; Laurie Goodstein. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Jul 19, 2010. pg. A.1

By contrast, ["Bryan Fischer" + gay or homosexual] gets 150 hits, and ["Bryan Fischer" + Islam or Muslim] gets 65 hits. I don't think his views on Native Americans or Illegal Immigration are significant by comparison. Unless someone can find sources to show their in the same league, those other sections should probably just be deleted.   Will Beback  talk  04:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Due to the lack of secondary sources, I'm going to remove those sections.   Will Beback  talk  05:35, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Judaism?

My apologies if I'm misplacing comments. I have seen the reference #7, and Mr. Fischer was talking exclusively about Islam. He did state non-Christians as well, but he did not mention Judaism by name.--Lrukieh (talk) 22:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, the quote he included from Justice Story did specifically include Judaism in the part Fischer put in boldface. It's not like he chose to ellipsis it out or anything. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

POV criticism in lede

Content was just added from Mother Jones, Huf Post & Falls Church. The first 2 are blogs. The last, Wayne Besen, is described as "National Commentary." Besen is extremely partisan. There seems to be an emerging consensus here that we need to have solid sourcing in this article, it is a BLP afterall, and if these extraordinary claims are notable they will have been covered by reliable sources. In the spirit of recent removals (See Sections on views) I'm removing the content.Lionel (talk) 01:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• "Huck, Newt and Haley Palling Around with Anti-Muslim Extremist", Siddhartha Mahanta, Mother Jones magazine

The Mother Jones article is from Siddhartha Mahanta who is an "Editorial Fellow" of the magazine. He has written for National Journal and produced videos for them. He has worked for PBS NewsHour and he wrote freelance for Al Jazeera. On the Mother Jones masthead he's listed as a member of their Washington Bureau. He's a journalist. Binksternet (talk) 04:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• "Extremism Flying Beneath The Radar", Wayne Besen, Falls Church News-Press.

Wayne Besen is quoted all over the place, a very notable writer. Whatever he writes can be sourced back to him per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, if there's any question as to its neutrality.

Partisan sources are not disallowed on Wikipedia. There is no such guideline. All sources have some bias. Instead, Wikipedia goes by WP:V and WP:RS. Besen is reliable and verifiable. Binksternet (talk) 04:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Too much cut out?

Isn't this edit a bit over the top in deleting information? In the course of the current campaign, it's again widely published. --Pjacobi (talk) 14:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

What is Fischer campaigning for?   Will Beback  talk  16:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, he uses his radio show to campaign [i]against[/i] gay issues, immigration, and the practice of Islam in America. Not that you'd know from this wikipedia page now that it's been whitewashed. --UltimateXiphias (talk) 17:34, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

It'd be appropriate to discuss the views which he campaigns for or against, but we should limit ourselves to those which have been reported in secondary sources. We should not search through his website to find interesting quotations to post.   Will Beback  talk  18:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking of the coverage he gets in the context of the current campaign for the Republican presidential candidate. Just one of many examples: http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/romney-on-stage-before-controversial-speaker/ --Pjacobi (talk) 21:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

That would be an adequate source for a brief discussion of his views.   Will Beback  talk  22:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

AIDS Denial:

Right Wing Watch has posted a clip of Bryan Fischer where he denies that HIV causes AIDS. How can this fit into the article? Should we wait until its picked up by a third party reliable source? --Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:10, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Best to wait until WP:secondary sources comment on it. Binksternet (talk) 23:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Allowing Gays to adopt is "a form of child abuse"

This should be included. Here's some reference material:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/18/los-angeles-gay-pride-preacher-poo-poo_n_1606317.html