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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 68.98.139.63 (talk) at 16:10, 28 July 2012 (→‎Origins of concept). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Origins of concept

Hi, a section on the origins of the concept of 'orientation' is needed if this is to be an up-to-scratch article. As any latin scholar will tell you, the Ancient Romans, didn't have the concept of 'orientation'. It didn't 'come in to existence' until the 18th century. Tjpob (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Marxists didn't propagandize the concepts of orientations sufficient for the concept to become mainstream vernacular untl the 1990s. On a related note, this article's marxist propaganda.

Asexuality as a sexual orientation, with regard to WP:MEDRS and other things

Hey, everyone. We really need outside opinions about whether or not to list asexuality as a sexual orientation in the Sexual orientation article and Template:Sexual orientation, as well as how to go about mentioning that it is considered a sexual orientation by some researchers (though still not by the general medical community).

And I hate to beg, but please do help out. The discussion is being had at Template talk:Sexual orientation#Is there evidence that Asexuality is a sexual orientation? Flyer22 (talk) 17:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Personal attack removed) I read the debate, and it was decided that we should include asexuality as a sexual orientation. So why does MathewTownsend show up weeks after the debate ended to go against that decision? He claims to have no personal opinion on the subject, but clearly he does. For example, he added the word "some" (which is a Wikipedia:Weasel word) to a line that already has established consensus (see the first section above). The conclusion from that section is that it's not "some" researchers who list these attractions under heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality. All do, except the few who use androphilia and gynephilia. Or terms like men who have sex with men or women who have sex with women, which are more about behaviors. For the APA definition, MathewTownsend then proceeds to add "(which includes only lesbian, gay, or bisexual and not asexuality)." Is that needed, like at all? Isn't it awfully redundant to talk about asexuality's status as a sexual orientation that early on, when this is approached in the third paragraph? MathewTownsend also adds "a "lack of sexual attraction" and backs it to one source. This is not consensus editing. Consensus agreed with putting asexuality as a sexual orientation in the intro of the article, not with calling it a lack of sexual attraction. How do we even know that MathewTownsend has read this source? It didn't seem like he read it when he was debating including asexuality.
I don't often edit Wikipedia or comment in any of its discussions, but I have been forced to end my recent silence(Personal attack removed). 50.78.12.41 (talk) 23:20, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I took care of the "some" issue, as seen in the above discussion you mentioned. I agree that the issue about asexuality being a sexual orientation should only be tackled at one point in the lead, and the best place for that is the third paragraph which details heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality being the usual sexual orientation categories and how people may not use any category. As for a "lack of sexual attraction," well, the fact that asexuality is considered a sexual orientation was not removed from the lead and the "lack of sexual attraction" is clarifying what asexuality is. But I don't feel that we need to do that in the lead, just like we don't for the other sexual orientations there. That's what the links are for. And if it is felt that we should define the terms, they can be defined in the "Sexual orientation distinguished from sexual identity and behavior" or "Sexual orientations included" sections. In fact, asexuality is already defined in the latter of the two. Flyer22 (talk) 19:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. 50.78.12.41 (talk) 17:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

new section: sexual orientation and culture

Hi, I'm new to wikipedia editing, so am looking for help and guidance! I would like to add another section to this page on interactions of sexual orientation and culture: Here's what I was thinking to put in, how do I go about adding it in?

Sexual Orientation and Culture

See also: LGBT history, Societal attitudes toward homosexuality, and LGBT community and multiculturalism

Sexual orientation does not exist independently of cultural and other social influences. Social systems such as religion, language and ethnic traditions can have a powerful influence on realization of sexual orientation. The majority of empirical and clinical research on LGBT populations are done with largely white, middle-class, well-educated samples, however there are pockets of research that document various other cultural groups [1]. Integration of sexual orientation with sociocultural identity may be a challenge for LGBT individuals.

Language

One major obstacle when comparing cultures is problems of translation. Many English terms lack equivalents in other languages, while concepts and words from other languages fail to be reflected in the English language[2][3]. Translation and vocabulary obstacles are not limited to the English language[4]. Language can be limiting in that it forces individuals to identify with a label that may or may not accurately reflect their true sexual orientation. Language can also be used to signal sexual orientation to others [5]. The meaning of words referencing categories of sexual orientation are negotiated in the mass media in relation to social organization[6]. New words may be brought into use to describe new terms or better describe complex interpretations of sexual orientation. Other words may pick up new layers or meaning. For example, the heterosexual spanish terms marido and mujerfor "husband" and "wife", respectively, have recently been replaced in Spain by the gender-neutral terms cónyuges or consortes meaning "spouses".[7]

Perceptions of Orientation

In Euro-American cultures, sexual orientation is defined by the gender(s) of the people a person is romantically or sexually attracted to. Euro-American culture generally assumes heterosexuality, unless otherwise specified. Cultural norms, values, traditions and laws facilitate heterosexuality [8], including constructs of marriage and family [9]. Efforts are being made to change these attitudes; and legislation is being passed to promote equality[10].

Some other cultures do not recognize a homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual distinction. It is common to distinguish a person's sexuality according to their sexual role (active/passive; insertive/penetrated). In this distinction, the passive role is typically associated with femininity and/or inferiority, while the active role is typically associated with masculinity and/or superiority[11][12][13]. For example, an investigation of a small Brazilian fishing village revealed three sexual categories for men: men who have sex only with men (consistently in a passive role), men who have sex only with women, and men who have sex with women and men (consistently in an active role). While men who consistently occupied the passive role were recognized as a distinct group by locals, but men who have sex with only women and men who have sex with women and men were not differentiated[14].

Racism & Ethnically Relevant Support

In the United States, nonCaucasian LGBT individuals may find themselves in a double minority, where they are neither fully accepted or understood by mainly Caucasian LGBT communities, nor are they accepted by their own ethnic group[15][16]. Many people experience racism in the dominant LGBT community where racial stereotypes merge with gender stereotypes, such that Asian-American LGBTs are viewed as more passive and feminine, while African-American LGBTs are viewed as more masculine and aggressive [17]. There are a number of culturally specific support networks for LGBT individuals active in the United States. For example, "Ô-Môi" for Vietnamese American queer females [18].

See also: African-American culture and sexual orientation

Religion

See also: LGBT matters and religion and Religion and homosexuality

Sexuality in the context of religion is often a controversial subject, especially that of sexual orientation. It is possible to integrate sexual identity and religious identity, though this may require reinterpretation of religious texts. [[Al-Fatiha Foundation is a movement within Islam that advocates for LGBTQ individuals in the Muslim community in the US and abroad [19].

Internet and Media

See also: LGBT stereotypes

The internet has influenced sexual orientation in two ways: it is a common mode of discourse on the subject of sexual orientation and sexual identity, and therefore shapes popular conceptions [20]; and it allows anonymous attainment of sexual partners, as well as facilitates communication and connection between greater numbers of people[21]. Al-Fatiha Foundation is an example of how the internet can facilitate support within a cultural and religious context. Janesmith344 (talk) 14:29, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Garnets, L. & Kimmel, D. C. (Eds.). (2003). Psychological perspectives on lesbian, gay and bisexual experiences. New York: Columbia University Press
  2. ^ Minwalla, O., Rosser, B. R. S., Feldman, J., & Varga, C. (2005). Identity experience among progressive gay Muslims in North America: A qualitative study within Al-Fatiha. Culture, Health & Sexuality 7(2), 113-128. doi:10.1080/13691050412331321294
  3. ^ Sechrest, L., Fay, T. L., & Zaidi, M. H. (1972). Problems of Translation in Cross-Cultural Research. Journal of Cross-Cultural Research 3(1), 41-56. doi:10.1177/002202217200300103
  4. ^ Santaemilia, J. (2008). 'War of words' on New (Legal) Sexual Identities: Spain's Recent Gender-Related Legislation and Discursive Conflict. In J. Santaemilia & P. Bou (Eds.). Gender and sexual identities in transition: international perspectives., pp.181-198. Newcastle: Cambridge Scholars Publishing.
  5. ^ Leap, W. L. (1996). Word's Out: Gay Men's English. Minneapolis:University of Minnesota Press
  6. ^ Santaemilia, J. (2008). 'War of words' on New (Legal) Sexual Identities: Spain's Recent Gender-Related Legislation and Discursive Conflict. In J. Santaemilia & P. Bou (Eds.). Gender and sexual identities in transition: international perspectives., pp.181-198. Newcastle: Cambridge Scholars Publishing.
  7. ^ Santaemilia, J. (2008). 'War of words' on New (Legal) Sexual Identities: Spain's Recent Gender-Related Legislation and Discursive Conflict. In J. Santaemilia & P. Bou (Eds.). Gender and sexual identities in transition: international perspectives., pp.181-198. Newcastle: Cambridge Scholars Publishing.
  8. ^ Rust, P. C. (2003). Finding a Sexual Identity and Community: Therapeutic Implications and Cultural Assumptions in Scientific Models of Coming Out. In L. Garnets & D. C. Kimmel (Eds.). Psychological perspectives on lesbian, gay and bisexual experiences (pp. 227-269). New York: Columbia University Press
  9. ^ Garnets, L. & Kimmel, D. C. (Eds.). (2003). Psychological perspectives on lesbian, gay and bisexual experiences. New York: Columbia University Press
  10. ^ Santaemilia, J. (2008). 'War of words' on New (Legal) Sexual Identities: Spain's Recent Gender-Related Legislation and Discursive Conflict. In J. Santaemilia & P. Bou (Eds.). Gender and sexual identities in transition: international perspectives., pp.181-198. Newcastle: Cambridge Scholars Publishing.
  11. ^ Santaemilia, J. (2008). 'War of words' on New (Legal) Sexual Identities: Spain's Recent Gender-Related Legislation and Discursive Conflict. In J. Santaemilia & P. Bou (Eds.). Gender and sexual identities in transition: international perspectives., pp.181-198. Newcastle: Cambridge Scholars Publishing.
  12. ^ Carballo-Diéguez, A., Dolezal, C., Nieves, L., Díaz, F., Decena, C. & Balan, I. (2004). Looking for a tall, dark, macho man… sexual-role behaviour variations in Latino gay and bisexual men. Culture, Health & Sexuality 6(2), 159-171. doi:10.1080/13691050310001619662
  13. ^ Cardoso, F. L. (2005). Cultural Universals and Differences in Male Homosexuality: The Case of a Brazilian Fishing Village. Archives of Sexual Behavior 34(1), 103-109. doi:10.1007/s105080051004x
  14. ^ Cardoso, F. L. (2005). Cultural Universals and Differences in Male Homosexuality: The Case of a Brazilian Fishing Village. Archives of Sexual Behavior 34(1), 103-109. doi:10.1007/s105080051004x
  15. ^ Cheng, P. (2011). Gay Asian Masculinities and Christian Theologies. Cross currents 61,(4), 540.
  16. ^ Masequesmay, G. (2003). Emergence of queer Vietnamese America. Amerasia Journal, 29(1), 117-134.
  17. ^ Garnets, L. & Kimmel, D. C. (Eds.). (2003). Psychological perspectives on lesbian, gay and bisexual experiences. New York: Columbia University Press
  18. ^ Masequesmay, G. (2003). Emergence of queer Vietnamese America. Amerasia Journal, 29(1), 117-134.
  19. ^ Minwalla, O., Rosser, B. R. S., Feldman, J., & Varga, C. (2005). Identity experience among progressive gay Muslims in North America: A qualitative study within Al-Fatiha. Culture, Health & Sexuality 7(2), 113-128. doi: 10.1080/13691050412331321294
  20. ^ Santaemilia, J. (2008). 'War of words' on New (Legal) Sexual Identities: Spain's Recent Gender-Related Legislation and Discursive Conflict. In J. Santaemilia & P. Bou (Eds.). Gender and sexual identities in transition: international perspectives., pp.181-198. Newcastle: Cambridge Scholars Publishing.
  21. ^ Davis, M., Hart, G., Bolding, G., Sherr, L., & Elford, J. (2006). Sex and the Internet: Gay men, risk reduction and serostatus. Culture, Health & Sexuality 8(2), 161-174. doi:10.1080/13691050500526126

Incest

Should incest be added as a sexual orientation? Pass a Method talk 08:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What reliable sources do you have that state that incest is a sexual orientation? Sexual orientation is the attraction to which gender. Besides, brothers that are attracted to their sisters (and only other females) are considered heterosexual, etc. Not sure if you're trolling or just dense.Someone963852 (talk) 11:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Asexuality again

Someone963852, why make these edits[1][2], when past and current consensus is that asexuality should be acknowledged as a sexual orientation, when asexuality is briefly elaborated on as a sexual orientation in the third paragraph of the lead, is still mentioned in the sexual orientation template, and when the matter is still being worked out at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality?

Yes, the American Psychological Association doesn't list asexuality, but that first sentence wasn't backed to the American Psychological Association. But either way, it is not only supported by them...but by other sources (meaning sources that list asexuality as a sexual orientation as well). The first sentence is simply describing categories that attractions fit under, and you have now removed the fact that a person may be attracted to neither sex from the first line. It just screams to me as a stunning omission. Further, it's not really practical to have a section on Asexuality all the way at the bottom of the article when we already have a section titled Sexual orientations included. Asexuality should be mentioned there and only there or that section should be removed, since we don't need it to state what it does. Flyer22 (talk) 23:28, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't see the Sexual orientation included section. I moved it there. Someone963852 (talk) 23:38, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. And I still of course feel that asexuality should be mentioned in the first line as contrasting people who are romantically/sexually attracted to one sex or both, but I'm not going to press hard for it or edit war about it. As long as it stays mentioned in the third paragraph as sometimes being considered a sexual orientation, I can live with your change without stressing out about it, LOL. I'll also go ahead and link it and briefly clarify what it is by way of parentheses. Just be prepared for the occasional instance where others will try to add it back to the first line, especially if they don't read past the first paragraph to see that it's mentioned in the third one. Flyer22 (talk) 00:28, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Asexuality should outright be called an orientation, but I agree that Asexuality should be mentioned somewhere in the paragraphs above the Contents box (about how it's being studied and the debate existing between researchers about whether or not to include it as the fourth orientation). Someone963852 (talk) 00:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a quick note: I don't have much time to participate in this discussion as I'm busy in RL, but as I understand, under WP guidelines and rules generally the longstanding text is kept in place until the issue is resolved: so asexuality should be still included in the list unless the discussion resolves to do otherwise. --~Knowzilla (Talk) 09:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since the removal of Asexuality in the opening of the SO article, no one had objected or reverted. The issue has been resolved for now. Saying longstanding texts should stay (only with a good reason) and that a consensus has not been reached yet (when it already has) is not a very strong argument on your part to revert the changes to your liking.
The template issue is not resolved, however, so Asexuality has been included in the template until consensus is reached. Someone963852 (talk) 11:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about another compromise? I don't see a problem with lifting asexuality out of the third paragraph and then tweaking that paragraph away from redundancy. For the second sentence in the first paragraph, we should introduce asexuality there...where it says "These attractions are generally subsumed under heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality." Instead of saying that, we should say "These attractions are generally subsumed under heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, though asexuality (lack of romantic or sexual attraction to others) is sometimes recognized as a fourth category." This is what is stated in the third paragraph, except it uses the word "usually" instead of "generally." Why have it mentioned that late, in a line that repeats what the commonly assigned sexual orientations are? It makes more sense to go ahead and get that over with in the second line, and to then tweak the third paragraph away from this redundancy. Flyer22 (talk) 19:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Placing Asexuality in the intro sentences kind of disrupts the flow and seems to give it undue weight. Maybe we can introduce Asexuality ("Asexuality (the lack of romantic or sexual attraction to others) is sometimes recognized as the fourth category.") before or after the APA quote? It's basically the same idea and wording, but making it a new sentence. Someone963852 (talk) 19:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with this and doing now The Sound and the Fury (talk) 23:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your edit. The Asexuality sentence should not be placed in the first paragraph, not be placed before/after the APA quote (as I wrongly suggested before), and should not be hanging off the other sentence, all due to undue weight. Someone963852 (talk) 01:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have to state that I'm not seeing how what I suggested disrupts the flow, or how asexuality is given WP:UNDUE weight by being placed in the second sentence of the first paragraph in the way that I suggested. Keep in mind that asexuality is still listed in the sexual orientation template and that, in addition to this, having it placed in the second sentence as I suggested gives it proper weight because it is contrasted with the other three and is explicitly called "sometimes [the fourth category]." Yes, I was suggesting it come before the APA quote. It makes more sense to name the four orientations and then go into the APA quote about sexual orientation also referring to a person's sense of personal and social identity based on their attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in a community of others who share them. But I would also accept it coming after the APA quote while remaining in the first paragraph. All TheSoundAndTheFury's edit has done is made the sentence in the third paragraph about heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality even more redundant. Because, like I stated before, we already state this in the second sentence of the first paragraph. We don't need to state it again. This article is already a big enough mess (a mess that I don't have enough time to significantly fix up). We can at least arrange a decent lead. Flyer22 (talk) 04:56, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I moved it around, but I still think it needs to be a new sentence on its own. Someone963852 (talk) 11:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that, and I agree with it being a sentence on its own for where you placed it. I linked Asexuality, though, moved the references up to back it, moved the category sentence (about these labels not fitting everyone) behind it, removed the redundant line that was in the third paragraph and tweaked things.[3][4][5] Flyer22 (talk) 16:56, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

add-on to old discussion re zoo- and pedosexuality

Hani Miletski's study is a legitimate study albeit of a small and uncontrolled sample with only limited screening for honesty by subjects; but she relied on a definition of sexual orientation that strikes me as dubiously narrow, having no element of social acceptance beyond the couple.<ref>Miletski, Hani, ''Is Zoophilia a Sexual Orientation? A Study'', in Beetz, Andrea M., & Anthony L. Podberscek, eds. ''Bestiality and Zoophilia: Sexual Relations with Animals'' (W. Lafayette, Ind.: Purdue Univ. Press, 2005 (ISBN 978-1-55753-412-5)), pp. 82–97 and see p. viii (''Preface'') (author was of Bethesda, Md.) (spec. issue of ''Anthrozoös'' (jnl.)), citing, for a definition of ''sexual orientation'', Francoeur, R. T., ''Becoming a Sexual Person'' (N.Y.: Macmillan, 2d ed. 1991).</ref> She seems to be qualified to do the study (http://drmiletski.com/about_hani.html as accessed today), so that's no issue. I haven't found the Francoeur book but it may still be worth getting through interlibrary loan.

However, my major concern is this: Sexual orientation seems to be developed into categories concurrently with social acceptance of people being in those categories and arose only when at least two such categories were established; adult humans wanting intercourse with children or animals is not socially acceptable at larger community levels in most of the world, if anywhere. On the other hand, insofar as sexual orientation is defined hormonally rather than communally, all I've seen, as a nonexpert, is support for hetero-, bi-, and homosexuality (asexuality not being discussed in the context of hormones while still being a sexual orientation by another definition), apparently because no one is claiming a hormonal influence producing an age or nonhuman-species interest for a destination (I don't want to say "object") of affections and the like.

I had a surprising bit of difficulty finding a secondary source defining sexual orientation abstractly, i.e., without listing particular sexual oprientations, beyond the sources already reported in Wikipedia, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right places. These are from a tertiary source (Wikipedia allows tertiary sources although not preferring them):

  • "Sexual orientation is frequently defined as a person's emotional, romantic, or sexual attraction to another person."<ref>''Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Mental Health'', in Piotrowski, Nancy A., ed., ''Salem Health Psychology & Mental Health'' (Pasadena, Calif.: Salem Press, 1st printing 2010 (ISBN 978-1-58765-558-6)), p. 814, col. 1 (in vol. II) (ed. Ph.D. & of Capella Univ. & Univ. of Calif., Berkeley) (tertiary source) (essay may have appeared before updating and revising in Piotrowski, Nancy A., ed., ''Magill's Encyclopedia of Social Science: Psychology'' (2003) & Magill, Frank N., ed., ''Magill's Survey of Social Science: Psychology'' (1993)).</ref> This precludes sexual interest from human to nonhuman as fitting a sexual oorientation and is silent about age.
  • "[S]exual orientation ... is ... the gender of their preferred sexual partners."<ref>''Gonads'', in Piotrowski, Nancy A., ed., ''Salem Health Psychology & Mental Health'', ''id.'', p. 854, col. 2 (in vol. II) (essay may have appeared before updating and revising in Piotrowski, Nancy A., ed., ''Magill's Encyclopedia of Social Science: Psychology'' (2003) & Magill, Frank N., ed., ''Magill's Survey of Social Science: Psychology'' (1993)).</ref> This is ambiguous on point, but one reading is that it assumes nongenderal issues are not in dispute and only gender matters.

Other sources have been discussed elsewhere; my not mentioning them is not rejection of them.

I continue to agree that the two proposals for sexual orientations should be rejected for these articles and template/s.

Nick Levinson (talk) 16:17, 12 June 2012 (UTC) (Corrected the Francoeur citation by adding the title, year, etc.: 14:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC))[reply]

On Franceour (et al.) defining sexual orientation:
In 1995, they wrote that sexual orientation is "[a] pattern of sexual attraction and limerence ... based on the gender ... of one's partners ...." That's silent about species and age range. The definitions of sexual orientation grid and of sexual orientation disturbance are no clearer on point. However, limerence is defined as referring to "another person", "the other person", and "men and women". Since limerence is a necessary element of sexual orientation according to Francoeur et al., sexual orientation is about "person[s]", "men", and "women". Thus, according to Francoeur et al. (1995), sexual orientation is not about nonpeople (i.e., nonhuman animals) and arguably may be limited to adults. Source: Francoeur, Robert T. (ed.-in-chf.) and Martha Cornog, Timothy Perper, & Norman A. Scherzer (co-editors), The Complete Dictionary of Sexology (N.Y.: Continuum, New Expanded ed., pbk. 1995 (ISBN 0-8264-0672-6)) (eds. Francoeur taught human sexuality, Fairleigh Dickinson Univ., & adjunct prof. in grad. Pgm. in Human Sexuality, N.Y.U., Cornog linguist & librarian, Perper sex researcher, & Scherzer taught human sexuality, Essex Community Coll. & Rutgers, the State Univ., Newark, adjunct prof., Masters' & Doctoral Pgm. in Human Sexuality, N.Y.U., & clinical assoc. prof., Univ. of Med. & Dentistry of N.J., all per pp. [789]–790).
Miletski, so far, may have extended Francoeur's definition of sexual orientation beyond what Francoeur et al. intended. Miletski may be legitimate in doing so but the extension then is hers and not his. Miletski so extending it without adequate justification, and I think it was without, may thus undermine her study of zoosexuals insofar as it purports to support zoosexuality as being a sexual orientation. She may have shown that they are well-adjusted psychologically, but I'm not sure that individual health is enough to support finding what they practice as constituting a sexual orientation. Some murderers may be well-adjusted, too, but quite deserve imprisonment (and some say deserve state execution). If being a murderer or a zoosexual is a mental illness, then society can't punish them, because the illness would mean they can't help themselves and therefore they may need inpatient psychiatric care but not punishment, and they would be released from hospitals as soon as they are well, which could be in a month. As a society, we generally reject that and seek the deterrence value from considering what they do as chosen and therefore punishable and deterrable.
Possibly, Francoeur changed his mind between 1991 and 1995. Miletski cited his 1991 work but it's unavailable to me through local interlibrary loan (there's a copy in Canada I probably can't get). It's a "college textbook", according to Francoeur et al. in 1995, p. ix (Preface). Maybe someone else has access to it, but it may not matter; if Francoeur was consistent, Miletski may have gone too far; and if Francoeur changed his mind, Miletski's conclusion may have lost modern validity, if it had it before.
Nick Levinson (talk) 16:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I saw these posts by you earlier, Nick, but obviously am just now replying. Just dropping in to say thanks for researching this further. Flyer22 (talk) 00:22, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Noting for future reference: An editor recently had to remove zoosexuality from this article. Flyer22 (talk) 03:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The editor who was reverted also added it to the Biology and sexual orientation article, but was reverted there as well. I believe that we should be cautious of this "new" editor. And if my placing "new" in parentheses isn't clear enough, then know that I do not believe that this editor is new. Flyer22 (talk) 03:44, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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