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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 123.3.240.230 (talk) at 00:40, 5 October 2012 (→Undue weight: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Recensions

I see this has been discussed before although the article hasn't been edited. Modern linguistic terminology refers to Bulgarian, Macedonian and Moravian recensions. It seems as though a user has mistakenly "described" these recensions as Western and Eastern Bulgarian while specialists use "Bulgarian", "Macedonian" and "Moravian" to differentiate them. Please correct me if I'm mistaken regarding Wikipedia's policy for specialist terminology. --124.169.35.72 (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the biggest part of "specialists" regard them as they were prior to your edit. You're correct in one, though - this has been discussed and this is the version we got to. --Laveol T 21:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. From what I can see (and believe me, I've been digging all over the place), this article is the only one to every use those terms. --124.169.205.21 (talk) 10:21, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


!!! I don't know how to start a new article, but... I believe the items in this article should be set in a cyrillic face. I can't stand the romanization. It's sacriligious? How do you spell that? Thanks.

If there are people and specialists referring to Eastern Bulgarian and Western Bulgarian recessions these should be in the wiki article! You cannot censor the term "Western Bulgarian Recension" simply because you do not like it. These were two schools in the Bulgarian state - both were Bulgarian recensions - and the article should note that these can be referred to as eastern Bulgarian and Western Bulgarian. PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THE TERM "Western Bulgarian Recension"!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.163.254.157 (talk) 02:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recensions, again...

  • This article is a big LOL - all the original texts, even the heretical ones in this language were written in Bulgaria, all the scholars were Bulgarian, even FYROM was in Bulgaria in that time - until 14th century all the so called Slavic states - Serbia, Russia, only copy original Bulgarian texts, FYROM appeared in 1945. What give you the right to call this language slavonic or fyromnian, since the so called slavs did not produce a single piece of original literature in it? It became a living language only because of the efforts of Bulgarian Emperors and Bulgarian scholars, all the literature is studied nowadays in Bulgaria in its original and we call the language Old Bulgarian, because our ancestors made it possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.126.123.205 (talk) 00:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sometime around the end of 2005, an anonymous editor added the term "Macedonian recension" which VMORO swiftly removed.
  • User:Crculver rightly advised VMORO that the terms "Macedonian recension" and "Old Macedonian" are valid and "quite common in contemporary English handbooks" to which VMORO erroneously replied was "extremely rarely found name which on top of it is used for the Ancient Macedonian language", instead insisting on the terms "West Bulgarian" and "East Bulgarian". Crculver reverts again and, understandably frustrated, says "Do you even own the English handbooks (Schmalstieg, Nandris, Lunt, etc.)?".
  • User:Kroum removes "Old Macedonian", Crculver reverts ("The term "Old Macedonian" is widely used in English handbooks, such as Schmalstieg's and Nandris'").
  • Over the next few years, there are reverts here and there. Several discussions are start on the talk page:

The four sources given for "Macedonian recension" attest for its use in Western academic literature and even distinguish it from the Bulgarian. This is not the case for those sources given for "Western/Eastern [sic] Bulgarian":

  • The first source states: Codex Marianus is an Old Church Slavonic text of West Bulgarian provenience.

I can give several arguments for why this doesn't apply, but it just doesn't attest the use of the term "Western [sic] Bulgarian recension". The phrase "of West Bulgarian provenience" in this context especially isn't a linguistic one by any stretch.

  • The second source states: Der Text [Codex Zographensis] stammt aus dem westbulgarischen (makedonischen) Raum und wurde Ende des 10.Jh. oder Anfang des 11. Jh. geschrieben. Am archaischsten ist er hinsichtlich seiner Phonetik, während die Morphologie neuere Züge aufweist.

This text isn't even in English: it cannot attest the use of scholarly English full stop.

The terms West(ern) Bulgarian and East(ern) Bulgarian recension can only be found in this Wikipedia and its mirrors.

It is my opinion that several users (from both sides of the revert war) have made this an issue of ethnicity. I can't believe that this has been kept for 4 years. --124.169.205.21 (talk) 06:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is that users like you have turned this into an ethnicity issue (and continue doing so). The fact is that the political entity within which the language was developed was the First Bulgarian Empire. I know it's hard to believe, given a certain education background, but it's a fact. Hence, the name. It's been heavily discussed in the past as well. Think of them as the two aspects of identifying the language. Geographically the Western recension was developed in Macedonia (the region) and the political entity that supported it and in whose educational/spiritual centres that developed it, was the First Bulgarian Empire. Thank you. --Laveol T 09:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I do not dispute the political entity in which the language developed, but rather the English scholarly terminology used in literature which isn't represented in this article. "Macedonian" in this context is unrelated to the political entity the Republic of Macedonia. This does not mean we as editors need to accommodate for any misinterpretations a reader may or may not have which can be resolved with a simple opening sentence stating such ("the names of the recensions in contemporary literature as based on..."). Why do you insist on using a particular terminology invented solely for this article? That's is why I suspect that you believe (whether consciously or unconsciously) this to be a matter of something other than linguistics. I'm sorry if I've offended you, perhaps I've misunderstood something. --124.169.205.21 (talk) 17:16, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree that Macedonian recension is widely used. That language is quite different than the language used in BG at that time and that's why it is mentioned separately in the linguistics. I heard this term West BG recension here on Wiki, off course after the BG POV presented here. In Macedonia and in the Slavistics the Macedonian recension uses different language that the Bulgarian and that's why it is separated. Even the earliest Macedonian writer Partenija Zografski explains this in his book and states the differences between the Macedonian and Bulgarian language. I support the use of Macedonian recension only.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As Laveol pointed out, we have to make sure that readers do not misunderstand what 'recension' refers to. It is very important that we avoid an association between the Bulgarian language of the Ohrid Literary School and the modern Macedonian language. The way MacedonianBoy and other contributors who have received similar education view the matter, it is very easy to mislead the reader. It is also quite clear that some contributor's actually aim to make the section easy to misunderstand and to purposefully associate the modern Macedonian language with the Bulgarian language of the Ohrid Literary School by not naming it 'Bulgarian' altogether.
The language of the Ohrid Literary School was simply put the language spoken in that area of the Bulgarian Empire, i.e. a western Bulgarian vernacular. The Ohrid recension displays some of the features of that vernacular, which means that the 'Western Bulgarian' nomenclature is perfectly logical. An argument against naming the recension 'Macedonian' might be that the region did not bear that name at the time: the medieval theme of Macedonia was actually in modern Thrace. What's more, Ohrid was not the only centre of Western Bulgarian literature: there was also the early centre Devoll, which is in modern Albania, not in the region of Macedonia. Of course, the name 'Macedonian recension' is a valid name used by scholars, so I'm not against retaining it in parentheses, as wrong as it may be.
I am opposed to any attempts to remove 'Western Bulgarian' as the name of the recension, however. Even reversing the wording ("Macedonian (Western Bulgarian) recension") will make it look like a modern political argument, which it is not. The way we currently have the names, it is as clear as possible to the reader that the recension is unrelated to the modern Macedonian language, but rather refers to the modern geographic region where it was used, and which fell in the western part of the Bulgarian Empire.
In short, the name 'Western Bulgarian recension' is both more accurate and 'safer', and the name 'Macedonian recension' is ambiguous and extremely misleading (see MacedonianBoy's post above as a good example of an attempt to use it to deceive the readers). Todor→Bozhinov 22:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]



As Laveol pointed out, we have to make sure that readers do not misunderstand what 'recension' refers to. It is very important that we avoid an association between the Bulgarian language of the Ohrid Literary School and the modern Macedonian language.

So why were terms such as "West Bulgarian recension" and "East Bulgarian recension" invented in place of contemporary terminology? Why can't this possible misunderstanding be resolved by a sentence explaining the context in which these terms are used in contemporary linguistic studies? The problem remains that the recensions are only named "West/East Bulgarian" in this article and nowhere in academic literature!

The way MacedonianBoy and other contributors who have received similar education view the matter, it is very easy to mislead the reader.

This has nothing to do with what is taught in Bulgarian schools VS schools in the R. Macedonia. This is a subject which has been studied in Western academia for a quite a while now.

The language of the Ohrid Literary School was simply put the language spoken in that area of the Bulgarian Empire, i.e. a western Bulgarian vernacular. The Ohrid recension displays some of the features of that vernacular, which means that the 'Western Bulgarian' nomenclature is perfectly logical.

Nobody is disputing that, but it is illogical to use the 'Western Bulgarian' nomenclature because it was invented for this article. Secondly, it is confusing because it is a term used in modern linguistics to distinguish the dialect groups within the modern Bulgaria. I can provide several sources to support this, but you can just read other articles here where they are used in that very same context.

An argument against naming the recension 'Macedonian' might be that the region did not bear that name at the time: the medieval theme of Macedonia was actually in modern Thrace.

You're getting way off-topic. The problem is not whether or not these terms correspond to anything back then, but the terminology used in modern English-language literature. By that logic, Russian language should be renamed Great Russian language because that's older nomenclature. But we are talking about contemporary terminology developed and considered standard in Western academia. Not politics. Not ethnicity.

I am opposed to any attempts to remove 'Western Bulgarian' as the name of the recension, however. Even reversing the wording ("Macedonian (Western Bulgarian) recension") will make it look like a modern political argument, which it is not.

For the umpteenth time: this is not an issue of politics or anything other than current terminology! If you are so worried the use of "Macedonian recension" will somehow detract from your national myth, perhaps you can add a sentence (or paragraph, knock yourself out) explaining the context in which the term in used.

The way we currently have the names, it is as clear as possible to the reader that the recension is unrelated to the modern Macedonian language, but rather refers to the modern geographic region where it was used, and which fell in the western part of the Bulgarian Empire.

So why can't we state that in the article instead of inventing West-this and East-that? --124.169.205.21 (talk) 05:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I don't why I'm bothering. The two sources for "Western [sic] Bulgarian" don't support the use of that term, nor are there any sources for "Eastern [sic] Bulgarian". --124.169.205.21 (talk) 05:48, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


TO END THE DISPUTE
I would like to remind you all that :
The Bulgarians were a small tribe that was assimilated in the large population of Slaves (Serbs or whoever they were – this is not known), and by remaining Thracian tribes. They all finally adopted slave language, but lost declinations – so they adopted it as foreign language.
The state has been Bulgaria for over 10 centuries and its name was based on the initial Bulgarian dynasty, but the adopted language was a variant of the slave language, not Bulgarian language.
The Thessaloniki and that part of the Balkans was Macedonia since 4-6 centuries BC. The people who lived there were geographically Macedonians and traditionally Macedonians and belonged to the inheritance of the Macedonian empire of the Alexander III. At the ancient times all what counted was officially accepted citizenship (as this should be also today!) and ethnic belonging was of little importance. Initially then, after Alexander III, Macedonian empire kingdoms were replaced by Roman empire which become Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium). During all that time Macedonian provinces remained as the provinces or themata. This stayed like this even after the Slave invasion in 5th and 6 century, as well as during Ottoman empyre. Macedonia always existed. Who are the people who are there, is the other, ethnic and I think question wity strong racist conotations.
The population around Thessaloniki was by the 6th – 7th century obviously predominantly Slave and certainly NOT Bulgarian. So the language was Slave. This was the language of the Old Slavonic, which remained in these Slave regions (including Russia and other Slave countries) as Church Slavonic. There is no old Bulgarian as such. The name of the Eastern version is nevertheless linked to the Bulgarian kingdom from these times (it was even recognized as empire for a short period of time), and the name is technical and has NOTHING to do with the ethnic structures of the populations. What may be "Bulgarian" in the modern Bulgarian language, is probably the absance of the declinations and other similar impurities. The "Old Bulgarian" is in fact old Slave, or probably it was the most close to the Old Macedonian (of Cyril and Methodius, and not of the ancient Macedonia, which was the language of Phillip II of Macedonia).
The claims that now Macedonians are Bulgarians is equally absurd as the claim that modern Macedonian language is the same as the Ancient Macedonia of Fillip II and Alexander III. But the populations of Bulgaria and Macedonia ARE a mixture of predominantly Slave and populations of the ancient Thrace and Macedonia.
Therefore for the time being, technical as they are, the linguistic definitions of the languages in question, Old Church Slavonic and its various “recensions”, are correct. To use the imperfections of these definitions in order to advance local political aspirations, is polluting the site and should be avoided.HERODOTUS1A. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.46.7.165 (talk) 10:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


It's quite a disgrace that an IP defended Wikipedian rules, while longtime registered users, who should have known better, defended nationalist POV. All the learned considerations that all the Bulgarian users here have expressed are completely irrelevant, because Wikipedia is supposed to reflect English academic usage, full stop. Wikipedia may not invent and use new terms, this is the job of scholars, and if you do it here, it's Original Research. Do you people seriously think you as Wikipedians are qualified to correct academia's allegedly "mistaken" and "misleading" terminology? This is completely opposite to everything that Wikipedia is about. And you have the nerve to be sarcastic about "certain education backgrounds", when your behaviour is the living example of the fact that once someone has passed a Bulgarian nationalist education, no amount of foreign language learning and international project experience can change anything. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

f there are people and specialists referring to Eastern Bulgarian and Western Bulgarian recessions these should be in the wiki article! You cannot censor the term "Western Bulgarian Recension" simply because you do not like it. These were two schools in the Bulgarian state - both were Bulgarian recensions - and the article should note that these can be referred to as eastern Bulgarian and Western Bulgarian. PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THE TERM "Western Bulgarian Recension"!!!

The term "Macedonian Language" or "Old Macedonian" did not exist before 1945 and was artificially created by the Yugocommusists to serve political goals. This is a scientific - not political article. Terms like West Bulgarian and East Bulgarian recessions - should be kept; while terms like "Old Macedonian" which is absolutely meaningless from scientific point of view (unless you are referring to the old macedonian language that was used in Alexander the Great's empire) should not be used. Please DELETE the term "old macedonian" throughout the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.163.254.157 (talk) 03:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Consonant clusters

Are there any consonant clusters with more than three consonants in Old Church Slavonic? --84.61.151.145 (talk) 17:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Old Macedonian

How does the term "Old Macedonian" apply to Old Church Slavonic? If I am not mistaken, there was no language called Macedonian until the 1940s. Further insight would be much appreciated. Robercie (talk) 03:20, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Old Macedonian" is an alternative name (along with "Old Bulgarian") used in academic literature to refer to the Old Church Slavonic language. It's obviously taken from the name of the region in which the language originally developed. Whether or not you believe a Macedonian nation or language existed pre 1940 is irrelevant and completely unrelated to the term itself. --203.166.230.176 (talk) 12:15, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you follow the link, you'll see the sources which attest its use. I'd even go as far as to say "Old Macedonian" dominates over "Old Bulgarian" when discussing alternative names. --203.166.230.176 (talk) 12:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Understood and duly noted. I hope you can see how, living in the present, a patron might be able misconstrue the meaning of the term. Also, I did not wish to convey an opinion on the presence of a Macedonian language prior to the 1940s; I simply made a statement in accordance with the best of my knowledge. Robercie (talk) 18:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Old Macedonian" is not a scientific term but a political term invented and propagated by the Yugocommunists. The only language which might qualify for the term "Old Macedonian" is the language spoken the the empire of Alexander the Great - which I understand is NOT related to the slavic languages discussed here. Please delete the purely political term "Old Macedonian" language from this article which deals with slavic and NOT hellenic languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.163.254.157 (talk) 03:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop trolling and go to Greek pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linda Martens (talk • contribs) 13:01, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

West/East Bulgarian

I am removing the above terms from the article because:

  • no references have been given to attest the academic use of "East Bulgarian recension" or "Moesian recension"
  • the two references for "West Bulgarian recension" do not attest its use in academic literature:

Recensions

I don't see why some registered editors feel like the earlier recensions need to be grouped together under a single heading. It also doesn't make much sense to have "Bulgarian recensions: Bulgarian, Macedonian, Moravian" or "Moravian recensions: Moravian, Bulgarian, Macedonian". They are not grouped as such in literature dealing with OCS. --124.150.58.207 (talk) 10:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recension nomenclature, yet again

So, I'm really not sure why this article takes pains to state that the Macedonian recension is so distinct from the modern Macedonian language. The Codex Marianus, for instance, shows some distinctly Macedonian reflexes for the strong yers (occasional though the mistakes are), and while modern literary Macedonian certainly didn't descend from the Ohrid school, there are clear phonological relations. It just doesn't make any sense to take such pains to so heinously misrepresent to readers in the service of what's clearly Bulgarian nationalism. Duke Atreides (talk) 02:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The current section name, which already is quite a significant compromise, may be misleading to the average reader as to the connection between OCS and the modern Macedonian language codified in the 1940s. Yes, the work of the Ohrid Literary School certainly reflects the dialectal pecularities of the Bulgarian language used in the western part of the First Bulgarian Empire, which was, of course, not solely limited to the region of Macedonia. (And some of which, of course, are also there in the dialects spoken in the region of Macedonia today.)
The paragraph, however, does not seek to explain any phonological similarities between western Bulgarian dialects and that recension. Its goal is to make it clear that the modern Macedonian language did not descend from the Ohrid School, as you pointed out. The names "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" are, I believe, ambiguous enough to warrant that explanation. In other words, the part you're adding is irrelevant to the paragraph and does not improve the article.
Also, try not to start with those accusations so early in the discussion, it serves you no good. Implying someone is a nationalist and calling their edits "heinous" will hardly leave you with any opportunity for discussion whatsoever. Todor→Bozhinov 16:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The name's a significant compromise if you're a balls-deep (slang, not an insult) Bulgarian nationalist who thinks that Macedonia is full of anti-Bulgarian propaganda machines (evident from the earlier parts of this talk-page, and your own user page as well), sure, but if what one wants is to represent English-language scholarly opinion and usage, then it's rather deviant. The Ohrid School reflects peculiarities of the modern Macedonian language, painful as that might be for you to hear. Sorry, but dropping back yers to o is about as non-Bulgarian as you can get. As you would have it, the article would denounce anything that even smells a bit of legitimizing Macedonia. It's sort of a truism to say that the Macedonian language didn't descend from a school of copyists. What the paragraph in the uncompromisingly-hardline-Bulgarian-nationalist instantiation does is give the impression that there is absolutely no link between the Macedonian recension and the modern Macedonian language. I'm sorry, there is, just read Lunt (or probably any English-language sources on the matter) and you might find that out. Just to reiterate, one merely needs to read the talkpage for this article (or check out your own userpage, and see that you are indeed a balls-deep Bulgarian nationalist who thinks that Macedonia is uppity (irony much?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duke Atreides (talk • contribs) 17:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is over. Todor→Bozhinov 18:11, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And just to make it clear, the only attempt at a scholarly argument that you're making above ("yers to o" being non-Bulgarian) is entirely wrong. Todor→Bozhinov 18:18, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Except that there's a rather major problem using those to claim that the Ohrid school is now Macedonian because a few non-standard Bulgarian dialects dropped yers to o. Texts from the Ohrid school don't collapse the yers into a single vowel, they preserved distinctions between the yers, dropping strong ь to e and strong ъ to o, systematically, regardless of environment. They also lost some epenthetic ls here and there. Do we find these same features in modern Macedonian? Yes. Do we find them in vowel-system-collapsing Eastern Bulgarian dialects? Not really, no.Duke Atreides (talk) 19:33, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find myself wondering: If the section on the Macedonian recension goes on to discuss features reflected in the modern Macedonian language, why does the section take even the slightest pains to tell readers that the recension is so named not because of any relationship to the language spoken by the Macedonian speech community? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duke Atreides (talk • contribs) 18:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian recension silliness

The recension was named so to differentiate it from the (eastern) Bulgarian recension of Preslav and because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in the modern geographical region of Macedonia

It was not named 'Macedonian' to specifically differentiate it from anything except the other recensions, thus the first part of the above sentence is superfluous. We wouldn't write "the English language was so named to differentiate it from the hundreds of other languages spoken in the world".

By way of the literary center being in Ohrid, Macedonia, we get 'Macedonian recension'.

not to imply a direct relation to the modern Macedonian language.

No modern Slavic languages are directly descended from OCS. Besides, it does not imply a 'direct relation to the modern Macedonian language' anyway, but then to say there is no relation is completely wrong.

Bulgarian recensions: Eastern Bulgarian recension, Macedonian recension

No one outside of Wikipedia speaks of a category of 'Bulgarian recensions'.

Both recensions were actively used by Bulgarian scholars and writers in the First Bulgarian Empire.

Who and what are the 'Bulgarian scholars'? Ethnic Bulgarians? We can't say that they all were with any certainty. Bulgarian as in citizens of Bulgaria? In that case, 'Bulgarian scholars' is stylistically superfluous. The Bulgarian Bulgarians from Bulgaria were Bulgarian Bulgarians from Bulgaria. Bulgaria! --203.206.77.175 (talk) 09:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, none of this will be taken into consideration by anyone because you're all too busy having your little edit wars and POV disputes. --203.206.77.175 (talk) 10:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ha-ha. Sorry, but the arguments seem quite silly. Bulgarian in this sentence clearly means a subject of the Empire. You could be a Byzantine scholar working in Bulgaria (remember Cyril and Methodius?...oh, sorry, I forgot they were ethnic Macedonians and subjects of their own Macedonian Empire, for which existence all scholars close their eyes). The specification in the sentence you do not like is needed since a lot of people (like you) want the term to actually co-relate to a modern (and by modern I do not mean as "coming from modernity", but something that's actually new - as new as 60 years old) term. This could lead readers to the impression (especially if they read other dubious articles on the matter) that there actually is such a thing. Happy, now? --Laveol T 19:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No modern Slavic languages are directly descended from OCS. Wrong. Bulgarian language is a direct descendant of OCS. That's why OCS is more properly called 'Old Bulgarian'. Thereupon all above arguments go to the waste basket. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.144.18.254 (talk) 13:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian is not a direct descendant of OCS. --124.150.51.98 (talk) 12:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, modern Bulgarian indeed IS the direct descendant of this language. - And moreover, following the Macedonian argumentation, you should not talk of "Latin" but of "Old Vaticanian". Besides, there should then be no Old High German but rather "Old High Liechtensteinian". Now if that seems ridiculous, so does "Old Macedonian". Nino, 01:24 CEST, 28th Nov. 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.172.41 (talk) 00:29, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect', perhaps you source that claim. --203.206.2.254 (talk) 08:30, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
...spoke the offended proponent of Old Liechtensteinian... Seriously, how can I prove there is no Old Vaticanian?! At times, Yugo-propagandists have marvellous requests... - Nino, 13:33 CEST, 12th April 2011.

Unrelated edits

I would like to inform the uninformed user Jingiby that this article is about the Old Church Slavonic language and its regional language variates, which there is not a small connection with 1940s or the modern languages, except the development of the languages themselves. So I would kindly ask him to stop writing things which are off topic. I added that the language variety started differentiating and shaping into new group of dialects that compromise the Macedonian language, and what did he do? He is writing about 1940s and similar things, unrelated sentences. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care what someone's bringing in the article as much as I care not to find lame expressions/sentences in it. Just go on and read what you wrote. --Laveol T 22:05, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you had seen the article previously, you would notice that that same sentence has been written by someone else, probably by someone who wants to show something unrelated. I am glad to see that efforts to 'show the truth' are not in the focus. I have removed that sentence, returned the relevant and sources things ans removed the sentence that might be more appropriate for the highly POV and out of reality article Bulgarian dialects.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 23:35, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm and cause you didn't like some POV, you had to go on and add the: extreme opposite, just so we could have another grand edit war. Thanks. --Laveol T 23:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And it's obviously nonsensical a recension to be named after a country that came into existence much later than the recension. I see what you're trying to imply, but it simply won't do. --Laveol T 23:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see you really want to edit war. I'll just wait till you calm down and rethink some of it. But, please, stop writing nonsense. --Laveol T 23:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Laveol, I did not call you name nor asked opinion from you. You are vandalizing Wikipedia right now since you are deleting my relevant sources compared with that Bulgarian. I did not start edit war, your friend did. The statement about the dialects will be in the article, since it is sourced and if you do not like that I do not care about it. Also, let it be region Macedonia, but then we do not need about that name Ku... or how was it, but we need the modern country where the city is. Face the reality, Ohrid is in Macedonia, the country. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 23:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In order to see where and who spreads the absurdity here, take a look at this paragraph:

The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic and thrived in the period between the 10th and 14th centuries. The recension was named so to differentiate it from the Eastern Bulgarian recension of Preslav and because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in the modern geographical region of Macedonia, not to imply a direct relation to the modern Macedonian language. Both recensions were actively used by Bulgarian scholars and writers in the First Bulgarian Empire.

Now tell me who wanted to show that in Macedonia is spoken Bulgarian even though Bulgarian appeared much much later? Who started to write POV? I have just corrected the sentence, sourced and gave more details. If you do not have facts, please do not revert my references. BTW, which language expect Macedonian can be spoken in Macedonia and particularly in Ohrid? Isn't this stupid dialogue that we are having since even you know that what I write is true, no matter it is opposite BAN's views.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 23:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to stick with you, but I really fail. Where do you see anyone implying that present-day Bulgarian was spoken at the time? It doesn't say so in the abstract you just pasted. I agree that we might drop the whole this language is a direct descendant of that, but it should come from both sides. And what langauage was spoken in a given region at a given time period depends mostly on what political entity owned it at the time. As the case of Macedonia clearly shows this could be Greek, Bulgar, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish, Serbian and most presently Macedonian. That's not something easy to spot.--Laveol T 10:02, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Laveol, if you can read the sentence just beneath this comment you will see who is trying to show something here and who is blaming for things that do not exist. BTW, do yo really need that sentence that Macedonian language was considered as Bulgarian even though it is mentioned everywhere where Jingiby has opportunity to post something? It is just irrelevant for the passage. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 11:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
PS: You misunderstood. In the article we are not speaking about the facts which languages were spoken in Macedonia, but which language the dialects make. It is well known that foreign languages were introduced in Macedonia, starting from Bulgarian and ending with Turkish.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 11:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Macedonian Boy, stop POV-ing this article, please. Jingby (talk) 06:30, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MacedonianBoy, the only way to win an argument is with facts and logic (just a fraction of either one will suffice when dealing with Jingby or Laveol). Find an authoritative book on OCS in English and you'll clearly see how these recensions are categorized and why they are named as such (you won't see 'West Bulgarian' or 'East Bulgarian'). We'll all then see that the very definition of OCS is based on its manuscripts and none of these POVs will ever be brought back into the article (yeah, right...) --124.150.52.156 (talk) 09:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of recension

The tenth and eleventh centuries witnessed far-reaching changes in the several Slavic macrodialects. Reflections of the changes in the spoken languages appear in the spelling and the grammatical forms in the manuscripts and enable us to identify them as Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, or Rusian (sic) (early East Slavic). As a convenient (but arbitrary) date, it is generally reckoned that non-East Slavic manuscripts written (or believed to have been written) before 1100 are Old Church Slavonic, as opposed to the Macedonian-Church Slavonic, Bulgarian-Church Slavonic, or Serbian-Church Slavonic written after that time. (These later forms of Church Slavonic are also known as the Serbian, Russian, etc. recensions of Church Slavonic. There is also a Croatian recension, attested in glagolitic mss (sic) throughout the Middle Ages and still used in some Croatian parishes. There is evidence for a Bohemian or "Moravian" recension, although only isolated fragments from this area have survived.)

— Lunt, Horace G. Old Church Slavonic grammar. Walter de Gruyter (2001). p.4 --203.206.2.254 (talk) 07:31, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Amendments

Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (abbreviated as OCS), also known as Old Bulgarian or Old Macedonian

Undue weight is given to the terms 'Old Bulgarian' and 'Old Macedonian'. It would be better to have "(see other names below)". A third insignificant name in this category is 'Old Slovenian' (see [2] [3] [4] [5]). The last source states, "(in this context, the more or less obsolete "Old Slovenian" and "Old Bulgarian" can be disregarded.) The relationship of the terms Church Slavic and Old Church Slavic is unambiguous: the former is the broader of the two, with Old Church Slavic representing its earliest phase. However, occasionally Church Slavic is contrasted with Old Church Slavic, and then the former is used to designate the modified or locally further colored recensions of Old Church Slavic".

in the region of Macedonia (Note: during the time of the Byzantine Empire the Theme of Macedonia (administrative unit) was elsewhere - namely in the lands of South-Central/Eastern Bulgaria of today and parts of Turkey).

Why is the is note necessary?

Eastern Bulgarian recension

Unattested outside of Wikipedia. This is the 'Bulgarian recension'.

A number of prominent Bulgarian writers and scholars worked at the school

It already states the Preslav Literary School was within the Bulgarian Empire. Why is every noun prepended with the adjective 'Bulgarian' when referring to people? That is just redundant and poor style.

The recension is named so by modern scientists because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in what today is referred to as the geographical region of Macedonia,

All of the recensions are named after the regions they developed in. This needs to be mentioned under "Basis and local influences".

At that period, administratively Ohrid was in the province of Kutmichevitsa in the First Bulgarian Empire until 1018.

Relevance?

Even though nowadays the Macedonian dialects make the Macedonian language itself,[18][19] most sources before the Second World War referred to them as a Bulgarian dialects.[20][21][22][23][24][25]

Again, what relevance does this have in the Old Church Slavonic article?

Nomenclature

We need to add 'Old Slovenian'.

Because some users have made this an issue of ethnicity-based POV, I'll wait for a response before making any amendments so as to avoid any possible disruptions (vandalism, edit wars, etc.). --203.206.2.254 (talk) 08:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

what are all these recensions anyway?

How about a definition of recension? (That article doesn't really help much.) —Tamfang (talk) 04:21, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is a recension something like a standardized dialect? —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or a version of the Bible? —Tamfang (talk) 05:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A recension is a variety which uses elements of the local vernacular, differentiating it from the earliest OCS manuscripts and other recensions. --58.7.136.237 (talk) 06:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Australian IP-s, expert on OCS

Please, Australian expert on OCS, do not change sourced info, before discussing it here. Jingby (talk) 12:14, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please provide an excerpt from that source which you believe to attest the use of 'East/West Bulgarian recension' and the classification of the Macedonian recension within a Bulgarian group. --124.148.228.142 (talk) 14:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please provide an excerpt from that source which you believe to attest the use of 'East/West Bulgarian recension' and the classification of the Macedonian recension within a Bulgarian group. I can follow a hyperlink myself, but I want to know which sentence/paragraph/footnote/whatever you think attests this. I've read through them all and none are suitable for your claim, so please provide an excerpt. --124.148.228.142 (talk) 17:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Read them, as much as necessery. And do not revert the article again. Full stop. Jingby (talk) 18:55, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jingby, I don't see what it is you're referring to. So, I politely asked you to provide an excerpt, and given that it's in an electronic format, I don't see why it would be so much trouble. I think you may have misunderstood those texts. As far as I can see, there is nothing there which states (even in a roundabout, misread way) that the manuscripts of Preslav belong to an 'East Bulgarian recension'. The names of the recensions are fairly precise and technical, and their classification is uniform across expert English-language works on OCS. Secondly, you have no right to tell me not to add sourced information: Wikipedia is a collaborative project and I will continue to contribute according to the policies and guidelines. Full stop. :) --124.150.62.117 (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll make it easy for you:
  • East Bulgaria with the two capitals...
If this is the sentence you refer to, then it's a 'cause vs. effect' argument. It makes mention of linguistic features originating from the East of then-Bulgaria which influenced the language variety known by scholars as the 'Bulgarian recension'. We could just as easily interpret ...original Macedonian character to mean the Macedonian recension is the oldest—which, in some ways, is more accurate. Furthermore, this source may not be suitable as it presents a fringe view (...modern Macedonian [was] born of the overlay of Serbian dialect on Bulgarian); however, I would certainly not argue for its exclusion based on that point alone.
  • From the point of view of Bulgaria, Macedonian is simply a west Bulgarian dialect.
Here the author is talking about modern languages and their political status. Lastly, I don't see anything in the third source which could even remotely be connected to your claim. --124.150.62.117 (talk) 03:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The third source counts the recensions of OCS. They are five and no Macedonian or (Eastern) Bulgarian recesion are distiguished, but only one - Bulgarian. Jingby (talk) 05:33, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, it counts the recensions of Church Slavonic (it states in plain English these constitute Church Slavonic). There's initial 'Macedonian' OCS (Codex Zographensis, Codex Marianus), recensions of it and then further recensions which are classified as Church Slavonic. Instead of doing a search for "Old Church Slavonic + Bulgarian", try reading a whole chapter. --124.150.62.117 (talk) 06:35, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of cource, it counts the recensions of OCS. Jingby (talk) 07:11, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recension

Can someone please tell me why there's no mention of the West Bulgarian or East Macedonian recension? And where on Earth are my South and North Bulgarian recension, huh?! ;) --124.148.245.171 (talk) 11:38, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in South Australian language, in Perth! Jingby (talk) 12:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perth is in Western Australia. Here's an idea: why not go see if you can get Ukrainian language renamed to 'Southwestern Russian language'. I'm curious to see if your bullshit would work in that article. --124.148.245.171 (talk) 12:37, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

A 'recension' is a language variety represented by its texts. None of the sources are relevant (they only speak of political climates in the west and east of the Bulgarian kingdom). The reference for "Macedo-Bulgarian" uses it as an alternative name for OCS, not talking about any manuscripts. --124.148.247.197 (talk) 05:31, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please, do not vandalise the article. Do not delete referenced text. Do not push your POV here. Thank you! Jingby (talk) 07:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am removing manipulated references. Best you read what it says in those books before blindly reverting. --124.168.244.58 (talk) 10:52, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please Australian IP, do not vandalize the article again. Do not delete referenced text. Do not push your nationalistic POV here. Discuss before making such huge changes and deleting sourced material. Achieve Wikipedia:Consensus at first and then edit. Thank you! Jingiby (talk) 07:15, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The deletion of the term Bulgarian in this article and its substitution with the term Macedonian as ultra-nationalistic POV

Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th,[1][2][3] up until the early 20th century.[4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later.[5][6][7][8][9][10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.[11][12][13][14][15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed.[16][17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed.[18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness.[19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population.[20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation.[21]

See also

References and notes

  1. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, p. 19-20.
  2. ^ Средновековни градови и тврдини во Македонија, Иван Микулчиќ, Македонска академија на науките и уметностите — Скопје, 1996, стр. 72.
  3. ^ Formation of the Bulgarian nation: its development in the Middle Ages (9th-14th c.) Academician Dimitŭr Simeonov Angelov, Summary, Sofia-Press, 1978, pp. 413-415.
  4. ^ Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe, Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) - "Macedonians of Bulgaria", p. 14.
  5. ^ Krste Misirkov, On the Macedonian Matters (Za Makedonckite Raboti), Sofia, 1903: "And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"
  6. ^ Sperling, James; Kay, Sean; Papacosma, S. Victor (2003). Limiting institutions?: the challenge of Eurasian security governance. Manchester, UK: Manchester University Press. p. 57. ISBN 978-0-7190-6605-4. Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
  7. ^ Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 259. ISBN 978-0-520-21029-5. On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
  8. ^ Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 193. ISBN 0-8014-8736-6. The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
  9. ^ Rae, Heather (2002). State identities and the homogenisation of peoples. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 278. ISBN 0-521-79708-X. Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
  10. ^ Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 422. ISBN 978-0-19-924409-6. Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
  11. ^ Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65, ISBN 0691043566
  12. ^ Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, Connecticut Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200
  13. ^ The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949, Dimitris Livanios, edition: Oxford University Press, US, 2008, ISBN 0199237689, p. 65.
  14. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  15. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  16. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  17. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  18. ^ The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566, pp. 65-66.
  19. ^ Europe since 1945. Encyclopedia by Bernard Anthony Cook. ISBN 0815340583, pg. 808.[1]
  20. ^ {{cite book | last =Djokić | first =Dejan | title =Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992 | publisher =C. Hurst & Co. Publishers | year =2003 | pages =122 .
  21. ^ Yugoslavia: a concise history, Leslie Benson, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, ISBN 0333792416, p. 89.

oversourcing

Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (OCS).(словѣ́ньскъ ѩзꙑ́къ, slověnĭskŭ językŭ) was the first literary Slavic language, first developed by the 9th century Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius who were credited with standardizing the language and using it for translating the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts as part of the Christianization of the Slavic peoples.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]


Ten sources for a well documented fact? Let's cut it down to one or two? 23:39, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Infinitives

Out of curiosity, has Old Church Slavonic had an infinitive form? -- Zz (talk) 16:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight

Undue weight is given to the terms 'East Bulgarian' and 'West Bulgarian'. The overwhelming majority of scholars use the terms 'Bulgarian' and 'Macedonian'. Some users seem to think these terms are ethnic designations (they are not, they are used for convenience) and have consequently attempted to suppress their use in this article. --123.3.240.230 (talk) 00:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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