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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cdwn (talk | contribs) at 13:26, 16 October 2012 (→‎Video footage: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Why was mission data deleted?

Mission data

[citation needed] *data manually collected from live video stream.

So where is this coming from? You watched the livestream page and typed numbers as they came by? Is there a log somewhere? -Koppapa (talk) 20:17, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I just typed numbers in as I was watching it. I'm curious of the type and accuracy of the instrument that measured the elevation. Davemody (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs to explain more clearly what is meant by "free fall".

Never mind. I figured it out.

Glad that got cleared up. -Noha307 (talk) 19:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Footage

Will there be video taken from the balloon as Baumgartner jumps? Will he have a helmet camera? In general, what telemetry, documentation and footage will be collected? Speciate (talk) 04:25, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is loads (and I mean LOADS) of informkation at the Red Bull Stratos Newsroom. I've not had a chance yet to go through it and get most of it on the article though. If you're willing to help, that would be great. Cheers, matt (talk) 07:10, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"scientific"

Why is the jump scientific. Yes, it will indeed break a record, but is there anything that goes beyond a record? What could possibly be scientific about this jump? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.225.250 (talk) 15:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of data from the jump will be analysed, including how pressure suits work in new environments (altitudes, speeds, pressures etc.). matt (talk) 17:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Selective Records

In the Records section, official and unofficial records are selectively mixed.

In the first category, "Highest manned balloon flight", Ross and Prather's 1961, 34668 metre (113,739.9 foot) flight is mentioned while Piantanida's 1966, 37642 metre (123,500 foot)[1] [2] [3] achievement is ignored altogether. Even though Piantanida flew higher, his flight did not meet the requirements of the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) (specifically, he did not return to earth with his balloon - something that Baumgartner will not be doing either). In my opinion, it is right and proper to list Ross and Prather's flight as the record, as it was certified by the FAI.

However, in the second category, "Freefall from highest altitude", the article lists Kittinger's 1960, 31,333 metre (102,799 foot) jump as the 'record', even though Kittinger's jump is not recognised by the FAI. In fact, FAI's website lists Baumgartner's July 2012, 29610 meter (97,145 foot) jump as the altitude record (as a 'preliminary record claim'.) Prior to that, Yevgeni Andreyev held the FAI record for his 1962 jump from 25,460 metres (83,523 feet). In my opinion, either Baumgartner's 2012 jump or Andreyev's 1962 jump should be listed in the article as the current 'record' because they have been recognised by the FAI, but it is not right or proper to list Kittinger's jump as the record to break since it was never recognised by the FAI.

So the article is in the position of discussing an unofficial 'record' (Kittinger's) that the Red Bull project plans to easily break, but omitting an unofficial 'record' (Piantandia's) that it may not break. Why does this article recognise the Kittinger feat and ignore the Piantanida feat? Thoughts on how to make this section more accurately reflect all the achievements of high altitude ballooning?

--212.139.244.241 (talk) 21:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The records were pulled from the project's media web page (enlarge the graphic on the right column of that page). What do other sources state about the records? matt (talk) 21:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this page of FAI ballooning records confirms the Ross and Prather 1961 flight as the highest on FAI's record books. This page of FAI parachuting records (search 'Performance Records') shows Andreev's 1962 "Altitude Freefall Distance - General" record still stands pending the ratification of Baumgartner's July 2012 jump. It also shows Baumgartner is the current record holder in the "Vertical speed without drogue" category (as a result of his March 2012 jump), and notes the receipt of a "preliminary record claim" in the categories of "Vertical speed without drogue", "Exit altitude", and "Freefall distance" resulting from his 25 July 2012 jump.
The FAI page on parachuting makes no mention of Kittinger because it never ratified his 1960 jump. Here's how Kittinger explained his omission from the FAI record in his autobiography, Come Up And Get Me: "Although I’d set an unofficial record for the longest and highest parachute jump and the longest free fall in history – I free-fell for a total of four minutes and thirty-six seconds – the international aviation commission, the Federation Aeronautique International (FAI), never recognized it. That was just fine with me. Because Excelsior was an emergency escape program, setting records was never our mission. I had refused to give the FAI permission to install their measurement and recording equipment in the gondola or to pay one of their onsite observers. I didn’t believe the American tax payers ought to be asked to foot the bill so that we could establish a world record. Besides, the Air Force’s instrumentation was an order of magnitude more accurate than anything the FAI would have used. The whole procedure seemed silly to me."
There is another explanation sometimes cited as to why the FAI did not recognise Kittinger's jump. As it's told in Fundamentals of Aerospace Medicine, "Kittinger’s 1960 jump was not officially recognized, by the FAI, as a record because a small drogue canopy was deployed early during the free fall phase of descent." Or, in the words of Popular Science, "Although Kittinger jumped from the highest altitude, his record isn’t fully sanctioned by the skydiving community because his use of a drogue is considered a crutch."
The story of how Nick Piantanida got to 123,500 feet and back again is documented in the books The Pre-Astronauts and Magnificent Failure both by Craig Ryan. This article in Air & Space Magazine says "While the record is unofficial, there is no doubt he went higher than any other human has in a balloon—123,500 feet." This article in Der Spiegel, this article in The American Scholar and this article in The New York Times, entitled "Chutist Changes Mind 123,500 Feet in Sky", are among the many that document Piantanida's 123,500 foot achievement. Piantanida did not jump from that height so he did not set a parachuting record and he did not qualify for a ballooning record under the FAI's rules - because he did not return to earth with his balloon - but he does seem to have gone higher in a balloon than any human in history. Google "Piantanida 123,5000" for a rich seam of information about the attempt.
Approach the self-hyping, publicity-seeking Red Bull Stratos pages with great caution and try to independently verify everything you use from that source. The whole project is one big advertisement, after all. --212.139.244.241 (talk) 00:41, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Due to the ambiguous meanings of the word 'record' (see the conflicting 'records' discussed above), I've removed references to specific record holders (Prather & Ross, Kittinger) from the article, as well as the Records section from the bottom of the page. I think it's appropriate to say that the Red Bull Stratos project hopes to set a record in such-and-such a category, but it'll be less contentious to not have to decide right now what qualifies as a verifiable record (FAI vs. Guiness Book vs. widely reported). Maybe after the Red Bull Stratos attempt things will get a little easier to sort out (maybe the FAI can certify a record in each category). --212.139.244.241 (talk) 10:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Although, if he only gets to 120,000 feet he won't have broken Piantanida's unofficial world record of 123,500 feet. 86.131.248.248 (talk) 11:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"gusty winds"

Not wanting to interfere at this time in the article, I think that it should be mentionned that there were no "gusty winds", but ONE_SINGLE gust of ~30km/h, which forced the balloon to ground, risking it to be seriously damaged. According to Baumgartner's later interviews, it was irrelevant that one of two radio communication channels were broke. [w.] 12:41, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

23 miles

Article introduction says approximately 23 miles, it's actually approx 32

No, it's definitely ~23 miles—compare this to this. matt (talk) 17:22, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Speed of sound

What is, in fact, the speed of sound at 100,000 feet altitude? Acmthompson (talk) 17:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound#Tables shows speed of sound to be 1083 km/h at 29 km. So he did break the speed of sound at 1173 km/h (or more) shown on feed. 80.220.71.129 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to say the same — 1173km/h is ~325m/s and at that altitude the speed of sound would have been below 300m/s. -- samj inout 18:40, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sources:

Use of non-SI units

I think that the metric units should go first and the US/imperial units should go into the brackets. This article is clearly not US-related but of international interest. See WP:MEASUREMENT. --Tobias1984 (talk) 17:45, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think this can be disputed, as it took place in the US and was coordinated in part by an American. 129.3.128.182 (talk) 18:43, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It was paid for by Red Bull (Austrian company) and the dude who jumped was Austrian. See a pattern here? Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 19:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not really sure why that should have any bearing on using accepted international standard units? Turkeyphant 19:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia manual of style clearly says that "non-science US-related articles" can use non-SI units. This is not a US-related topic but of international interest. --Tobias1984 (talk) 19:10, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I concur, it should be SI with US units in brackets. Speciate (talk) 21:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Altitude definitions

The article seems to freely interchange AGL and ASL altitudes. Can someone clarify which is meant when altitudes are given? Turkeyphant 19:09, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this still needs clarification. Is anyone aware of data sources that are explicit about this? 82.152.144.89 (talk) 11:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Free fall vs Kittinger

We need to find out what the consensus of sources is for the record free fall. In the eyes of some, Kittinger's "record" is marred by use of a drogue parachute, and by failure to have the records submitted to the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale. Kittinger dropped from a lower height, and opened his main chute at a higher height, and yet the times were about the same, so the drogue did slow his fall a lot. Please provide links to sources, as I don't really want to use my personal opinion, so we can sort this out. Speciate (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've thought about this a lot in the past few days too. Just because an accomplishment was not certified by the world governing body in this area, the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) (or the Guiness Book, or whoever) doesn't mean that the event did not happen (e.g. Nick Piantanida's 123,500 foot flight in 1966 - although the Stratos project conveniently ignored it altogether). One possible solution might be to differentiate between "official records" and "unofficial records". For example, Baumgartner's achievement will not be ratified by the FAI as the highest manned balloon flight (so won't be the "official record" in that category) because under FAI rules the pilot has to return to earth with his balloon, but for Wikipedia to ignore it would defy logic and history. I'd suggest we note he holds the "unofficial record" in that category. I'd also suggest we note that Kittinger holds an "unofficial record" in whatever categories he still holds a record (since his accomplishments were never FAI sanctioned). More to the point of your question, the FAI doesn't keep records for the timed duration of free fall - it measures in meters (look here and search 'Performance Records'). As a result of today's jump the FAI will eventually sanction that Baumgartner holds the record for "vertical speed without drogue" - in fact he already holds that record for his March 2012 jump (see, here). As for Kittinger's free fall, I'd say he holds the unofficial record for longest timed free fall with a drogue parachute - but that's a lot of qualifications. --212.139.244.241 (talk) 23:10, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Capsule

How did they get the capsule safely back down? Where did it land? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.140.157 (talk) 23:04, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I Think it landed in one of these three locations: Possible Felix Baumgartner The Stratos Project Red Bull Landing Zones

1) 33°21'17.94"N 103°48'18.29"W

2) 33°19'38.64"N 103°45'12.96"W

3) 33°20'24.00"N 103°46'49.08"W

Take Off:

33°18'39.24"N 104°32'21.12"W

mickrussom (talk) 04:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Top speed

This article contradicts itself when it comes to Felix's top speed. The lead shows a top speed of 832 mph while the article only has him reaching 706 mph. Some resolution would be nice. Hellbus (talk) 06:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's resolved now?—the initial reports of his speed were 706 mph, though later (see here) the FAI were analysing data that suggested top speed was 832. Obviously it's yet to be confirmed, but it took a while for this to trickle through to the news services. matt (talk) 07:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube

I read somewhere that the youtube live stream record was also broken (previous record of concurrent streams was the London Olympics opening ceremony at ~500.000 concurrent connections?) I believe that at the point where he was about to jump the number of concurrent connections passed the 8 million mark? 77.250.38.17 (talk) 07:03, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Found a link: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/millions-watch-as-felix-baumgartner-378859 Apparently the previous records were way better than the Olympics, but still- a record for the live stream. Felsir (talk) 07:09, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Another link: http://mashable.com/2012/10/15/space-jump-youtube-record/ Felsir (talk) 07:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yevgeni Andreyev

There have been some edits to the article stating that Yevgeni Nikolayevich Andreyev previously held the record for longest free fall. I've removed these, as they did not provide a source (and removed a source in the process). Can anyone verify this claim with a reliable source? I can't find anything except reports on how far he fell—even if he had the farthest free fall, that doesn't necessarily equate to the longest, and it's the duration that we're talking about here. Can anyone help? matt (talk) 07:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it may be duration that you are talking about here, but again I point you towards the website of the world governing body in these matters, the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale; (its parachuting records page is here - search under "Performance Records"). There are of course two different ways to measure the 'longest' free fall; in time and in distance. The FAI only certifies in distance (not time) and indeed Yevgeni Nikolayevich Andreyev is the official record holder in the category "Freefall distance - General - Altitude Records". He set that official record in 1962 (in fact, it's the oldest record in the FAI's parachuting category). You may also note that the FAI has received a preliminary record claim from Felix Baumgartner in regard to his March 2012 flight. If certified, he will become the official free fall distance record holder. Until then, I'd urge the restoring of Andreyev's record to the article. --212.139.244.241 (talk) 15:36, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another quick thought: You can't really compare Andreyev's free fall and Kittinger's jump in terms of TIME because, except for the first thirteen seconds, Kittinger was dragging a drogue chute which slowed him down (and prolonged the time it took him to return to earth). It would be more accurate to say Kittinger holds the unofficial record for the longest timed fall with drogue chute. --212.139.244.241 (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just me. Every last newspaper is talking about the time of the freefall, not the distance of the freefall. I'm not disputing that Andreyev holds the longest distance free fall, but no news reports on Stratos have been talking about Andreyev's record—as it's the time that is being reported, we should stick to mentioning that. I have no problems with mentioning Andreyev if it's relevant and if a third party also does, but we as editors mustn't decide what is relevant to the article—we should include what has been published related to Baumgartner. matt (talk) 16:37, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Great minds (and yours and mine, too) can disagree; I'd say that as editors we must decide what is relevant to the article, and not to unthinkingly throw in everything (and only that) which is published in today's news cycle (which has pretty much gobbled up and spat out the story as framed for it by the Stratos publicity machine). Andreyev's record is relevant to this article (he holds the world record that Baumgartner's jump bettered) and the third party in this case is the world governing body for the sport of parachuting (the FAI). I can't think of a better source, or a more compelling reason, to include a mention of Andreyev and his feat in this article. --212.139.244.241 (talk) 18:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Telemetry shown in videos

Previously I made edits (here and on Felix Baumgartner) to remove apparently spurious "accuracy", where a figure of 128097 feet was given. (This was obviously due to cumulative rounding errors: converting 128100 feet (as quoted in newspapers) to 39044.88m, then converting 39044m back to 128097.11ft, truncating both times.)

Now having looked for more accurate data, I find that they're probably off by about 90 metres. But I'm not sure if this has sufficient validity to include in the main article:

The YouTube video includes the final 111 seconds of the ascent, of which the first 74 seconds included a telemetry display.

The video starts at 2h34m05s on mission clock, with telemetry showing 38906m/127645ft, and at 2h35m18s the final telemetry shown was 39058m/128143ft; the jump occurred 38 seconds later at 2h35m56s.

A simple calculation shows that the balloon was still rising by about 2.04 metres per second at this height, so the actual jump height was about 39137m, or about 300ft higher than the 128100 ft quoted in the news articles.

  • Can a video be a primary reference?
  • Is it reasonable to extrapolate 37 seconds' worth of ascent?

Martin Kealey (talk) 07:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No and no. -Koppapa (talk) 09:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course the video can be a primary source, nothing wrong with that so long as it is appropriately licensed. However, you are right that we can't extrapolate to get the maximum altitude (as that is original research). I recommend using press releases from the team, or any other similar source. --Errant (chat!) 11:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Video footage

Would be great if we could have some video footage of the jump on Wikipedia, if that's possible. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, it would certainly be fair use. I'll try and see if I can get some in place of the stills we currently have. — cdwn 13:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

16 vs. 17 seconds

In this article, there are conflicting statements concerning the comparison of Baumgartner's free fall and of Kittinger's free fall:

  • However, Baumgartner fell around 17 seconds short of reaching the longest-duration free fall record set in 1960 by Kittinger.
  • Baumgartner's free fall time of 4 minutes 20 seconds was 16 seconds short of the current record.

Could someone please verify and correct the information for reason of consistency? -- White rotten rabbit (talk) 15:01, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I can give you some insight to that as an experienced skydiver. If you review the video footage closely, you can see that drogue deployment occurred at 4:16. This suggests that Baumgartner 'pulled' a second or so before. The canopy was extended (but not open - still in freefall) at 4:18. Mission control stopped the clock prematurely at 4:19 on seeing the unopened canopy, but the 'slider' did not travel down the lines until 4:20 (or even 4:23) when the canopy was fully open and freefall arrested. If we agree that freefall was arrested at 4:20 and we know that Kittinger's unofficial record was 4:36, then he was 16 seconds short. The FAI will confirm the actual deployment time and distance.

As a previous writer above has suggested, Joe Kittinger's records are unofficial as they were never submitted to the FAI for verification. Furthermore, the FAI does not view duration as a record, but distance travelled. Baumgartner would therefore have the official record for distance (without a drogue) and technically duration too if the FAI counted it. However, Kittinger would still hold the unofficial record for duration in freefall, albeit that he was under a drogue (and much slower) whilst Felix was not.

There are some interesting points to consider out of this. If the FAI did consider duration as an official record, then Baumgartner would be given it based on the authentication of his jump data. If Baumgartner wanted to beat Kittinger's unofficial duration record, then he would have to jump higher than Kittinger, or use a drogue and open as low as Kittinger did. Alternatively, the only way to beat Kittinger's time would be for Baumgartner to jump much higher and open lower. The actual problem was that although Baumgartner jumped from a higher altitude than Kittinger, he was travelling a great deal faster (supersonic) and covered the same distance as Kittinger did in much less time. It was thought that the extra altitude would be enough for both speed, altitude and duration records. However, as Baumgartner went so fast he cheated himself out of the duration record by deploying at the planned altitude of 1,500 metres (4,950 feet)

The irony is that if Baumgartner had stayed in freefall for another 20 seconds, his Automatic Opening Device, CYPRES (Cybernetic Parachute Release System) technology to deploy the reserve automatically if he exceeds a vertical speed of 35 metres (115 feet) per second at a predetermined altitude (around 2,000 feet / 610 metres) would have deployed his reserve for him. That extra 3,000 feet would have been worth at least 15 to 18 seconds of freefall and Baumgartner would have had the duration record. However if there was a problem with the opening, he would have had only 10 seconds to correct this before hitting the ground.Nigelpwsmith (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've reviewed the press conference again. The FAI representative Brian Utley (who curiously referred to the FAI as the Federation Aviation International - it is actually Fédération Aéronautique Internationale) says that the unofficial data being submitted (from the FAI instrumentation carried by Felix in his chest pack) said that the jump altitude was 128,100 feet and the distance (to opening) was 119,846 feet. This would correspond to an opening altitude of 8,254 feet. In these circumstances, Felix could have safely remained in freefall for another 36 seconds and still deployed above the automatic opening height set for the CYPRES 2 at 2,000 feet. It's been suggested that as Felix could not seen his altimeter due to the visor fogging, he decided that safety should come first and deployed earlier than the planned altitude of 1,500 metres (4,950 feet) to ensure that he descended under his main and not the reserve (which CYPRES 2 would have activated), thereby giving Felix a safety margin. A perfectly acceptable decision given that he was wearing a cumbersome spacesuit.Nigelpwsmith (talk) 22:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References
  1. ^ "Skydiving from Space Part II: Nick Piantanida's "Magnificent Failure"". Retrieved 11 October 2012.
  2. ^ "The 120,000-Foot Leap". Retrieved 11 October 2012.
  3. ^ "Safety Design for Space Systems". Retrieved 11 October 2012.

1342 km/h is a dubios free fall speed

Same newspapers that are claiming now Baumgartner reached a speed of 1342 km/h, well beyond any sound speed at any altitude, were initially talking of a max. speed no more than 1137 km/h.

The BBC article ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19943590 ), quoted as reference here, just states "Austrian Felix Baumgartner has become the first skydiver to go faster than the speed of sound, reaching a maximum velocity of 833.9mph (1,342km/h)." without citing any source for that top speed of 1,342km/h.

Did Felix breathe pure oxygen to reduce risk of the bends

Some who attempted 'space diving' pre-breathed oxygen - Article doesn't seem to say if Felix did. - Rod57 (talk) 23:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Balloon?

So what happened to the balloon? --68.17.126.75 (talk) 01:21, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

History and other issues

I agree that the article needs information about the fate of the balloon and the capsule.

I also think the article needs to debunk the "edge of space" claim.

Conscientia (talk) 06:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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