Talk:United States presidential line of succession

Robert Gates

Robert Gates should be listed as an independent. He has said many times he is not a member of the Republican Party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.165.40.210 (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Disagreed. I have changed it to Republican and added a reference. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

You are wrong. He is independent.

That isn't exactly a convincing argument, and the source states otherwise. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, both points are extremely valid. Ultimately, if he's not registered as a Republican, I have to say he needs to be portrayed in accordance to his legal registration status. That's independent. However, I believe the citation should remain on the grounds that it is declarative (i.e. Gates has said he's a Republican.) Counter to that argument, there is evidence that Gates is not a Democrat and there's evidence that Gates is not a Republican. But its important to represent the facts and ideology is not grounds, necessarily for fact. Please change it to 'independent'. --Samfisch (talk) 00:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

He self-identifies as Republican. I'm not going to say he's wrong. We should follow whatever is used at his article, Robert Gates, which is also Republican. It was discussed, there, too. See Talk:Robert_Gates/Archive_1#Political Party. If you want to change the party affiliation, start over there. Personally, I think the footnoted explanation on both pages makes it very clear: "Gates is not registered with any political party, but considers himself Republican." TJRC (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Because Robert Gates is not legally registered with any political party, he is, by American law, an Independent which means that his affiliation is and ought to be "independent." However, the citation is extremely relevant. Therefore, the gray shading has been placed there whilst the citation shall stay. Fair is fair. Necropirate (talk) 12:05 26 January 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 17:06, 26 January 2011 (UTC).

Pelosi and Byrd

Term of the 110th Congress expired today, so aren't Pelosi and Reid formally out of the offices of Speaker and President pro tem until January 6, when the new Congress convence, and thus out of the line for this time, or they retains these positions for few days without Congress? Darth Kalwejt (talk) 21:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Pelosi is no longer Speaker of the House because the 110th Congress expired at noon on January 3. If both the President and Vice President were to die prior to the organization of the 111th Congress, Ms. Pelosi could not act as President. She is out of the line unless and until the 111th Congress re-elects her as Speaker of the House.

The Senate, unlike the House, is a continuous body and the president pro tempore retain his position as long as he is still a Senator. Thus, President pro tempore Byrd (not Harry Reid, the Majority Leader) is still in the line of succession for President.

I will not make these changes on the page because I don't really think it's that big a deal, though. We'll have Pelosi again as Speaker in two days. JasonCNJ (talk) 21:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What happened to 16 & 17?

If we are including the numbers for individuals that are not yet confirmed, then why does Shinseki (born in Hawaii territory, part of the US) and Napolitano (born in New York) listed as #17 and #18? user:mnw2000

Difference

Why are in the de wiki version some names different within the list of the current presidential line of succession from this en wiki? Thank you. --83.208.117.159 (talk) 14:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

It appears to me like the german version has not updated and removed the people that filled positions in Bush's cabinet that have not been had a new person confirmed in Obama's cabinet. I believe the German version is incorrect, those people are not in Obama's cabinet even though they haven't been replaced yet. A new name 2008 (talk) 14:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for a quick answer, I was wondering about designation of some new members administration as well. Yesterday, I updated the czech version of page, so I wanted to be affirmed with information. --83.208.117.159 (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

President Pro Tempore (Conflicting information in article)

Is it true that Robert Gates is an independent? I thought it was said there are two republicans in the cabinet —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeneral28 (talk • contribs) 00:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

"Number of gunshots"

Is "number of gunshots" a bit crude? Even number of deaths is less crude. LizzieHarrison 12:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it was vandalism. It's supposed to be just "#", the order number of succession. I've reverted the vandalism. TJRC (talk) 15:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Party Affiliation

Changed Robert Gates' affiliation color-code to independent. Secretary Gates is a registered independent. He may have conservative leanings, but he is NOT a registered Republican, nor has he ever identified himself as such. More importantly, prominent Democrats also recognize that he is an independent as evidenced by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's quote in the following: http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2008/11/09/does_bob_gates_count_as_a_republican SpudHawg948 (talk) 21:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Changed it to Republican, added reference. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Acting cabinet members

If there's an acting deputy or an unconfirmed out-of-session appointee in a cabinet spot, do they get passed over in the line of succession or do they have a legally defensible claim to the office? MrZaius^talk 09:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Acting is not in line for succession and is usually highlighted in this article in "italics". The same is true for cabinet members that are not eligible to be President such as being born outside US jurisdiction. However, if former President Clinton or Bush II were to be a cabinet member, would they be in the line of succession. Is the restriction in the 25th Amendment only on RUNNING for President? user:mnw2000 16:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

No Acting Secretary or unconfirmed nominee has any legitimate claim to the office of Acting President. The restriction in the 22nd Amendment refers only to those seeking election to the Office of President; if President Clinton or President Bush or the other President Bush or President Carter were to become Cabinet officers or otherwise end up in the line of succession and the opportunity to become Acting President fell upon them, they would have no Constitutional or legal prohibition on taking office as Acting President of the United States. JasonCNJ (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Carter and Bush 41 would also have no legal prohibition on being elected president —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.54.110 (talk) 08:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hold-over cabinet members - Early in a Presidential term, while the new cabinet has not all been confirmed, are the cabinet members from the previous administration in the line of succession? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.105.72.67 (talk) 14:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Holdover cabinet members remain in the line of succession for as long as they remain in office. Acting cabinet secretaries might also be in the line of succession, according to the Continuity of Government Commission, who I have quoted in the article under "Notes." Richard75 (talk) 17:36, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

As for Acting officials? might be, isn't good enough. GoodDay (talk) 16:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I have replied in the "Acting Secretaries" section below. Richard75 (talk) 19:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Cabinet member becoming President situation

I disagree that there would be a constitutional crisis in a situation where a Cabinet member becomes the President. Electing a new Speaker of the House would not cause a power struggle. The series of events I see are as follows:

1. The President through the President of the Senate die simultaneously or almost.

2. The Secretary of State, the highest in the line of succession, is sworn in as the new President and resigns their old office simultaneously.

3. Since they are now the President, electing a new Speaker does nothing.

The only situation where there could be a crisis would be so rare it is improbable that it would happen. There would have to be an event to cause a Cabinet member to be next in line for the Presidency, for the event to become knowledgeable during a time when Congress to be convened, and for them to have an election for Speaker before the acting President could be sworn in. In that case the newly-elected Speaker of the House would technically be next in line to the Presidency, but Congress would have to act so quick elect a new one I doubt that situation would ever happen.

I propose removing issue 6 from the Constitutional concerns list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.214.44.98 (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The answer is in subsection (d)(2) of 3 USC 19:

"An individual acting as President under this subsection shall continue so to do until the expiration of the then current Presidential term, but not after a qualified and prior-entitled individual is able to act..."

The Speaker (assuming he is qualified) is a prior-entitled individual in the line of succession, so he replaces a cabinet secretary as president. Richard75 (talk) 17:41, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The confusion here often centers on "prior-entitled." In this context this legal term does not mean a person who was entitled to the office prior to the succession. Instead, it means an individual whose position comes "prior" to the Cabinet officer's position on the succession list - a position, in other words, of higher rank on the succession list.Professor Storyteller (talk) 07:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Air force One Technicality

This is definitely a minor technicality, however the picture of LBJ being sworn in is incorrectly captioned as, "New President Lyndon Johnson is sworn in aboard Air Force One, following the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963". At the time the picture was taken, there technically was no President, as JFK had passed away, and LBJ was just being sworn in. The caption conflicts with the definition of Air Force One, in accordance with the Air Force One article. I don't think it matters all that much, however it does imply that Air Force One is an aircraft for the President as opposed to any aircraft the President is on. I'm not going to change it, just pointing it out for discussion. Ryan Gittins (talk) 03:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Johnson became president as soon as Kennedy died. His term of office did not begin when he was sworn in, he was already president. The Constitution only requires that he be sworn before he enters on the execution of his office. Richard75 (talk) 00:19, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Republican Link

I noticed that this link was not working:

|style="background-color:#FFB6B6"|Republican

This seems stange to me. Shouldn't it link to the Republican Party?

I adding this to the Discussion because I really don't know how edit on Wikipedia and don't want to mess thing up.

Poorlittlerobin (talk) 21:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Daniel Inouye ineligible to be potus

hawaii was not part of usa until 1954.he was born in 1924 so he cannot serve to be potus.plz shade his color to something else

manchurian candidate 10:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Hawaii was a US territory since the 1890s, and a state since 1959. Do you have a reliable source saying people born in US territories are ineligible to be President? They are US citizens, the same as someone born in a US state. Inouye is eligible to be president. 12:45, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

McCain was eligible and he wasn't born in a state of the US. Therefore, if Hawaii was under US administration in 1924, I would argue that he would be eligible. However, his age may make it unlikely he would accept in the tragic situation where the Prez, the VP and the Speaker were all not able to take office. I think his listing is more honorary than actual. But since Hawaii was a US Territory in 1924, the he is eligible. user:mnw2000 15:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, Barry Goldwater had been born in the territory of Arizona prior to its becoming a state; yet, his eligibility for the G.O.P. nomination for President in 1964 was not seriously contested. WHPratt (talk) 16:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

What exactly is the citizenship status of a person born in a foreign land, but then that land get annexed by the US? Take Texas for example. Would a Texan born before 1845 be considered natural-born since he was born in the United States, he was just born before that land was part of the United States. Emperor001 (talk) 03:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The Constitution itself offers very little guidance on what constitutes a "natural born" citizen, but 8 USC 1401 covers the issue of "citizens of the United States at birth," who are considered under law to be natural-born citizens. This includes subsection (c), which states in part that citizens of the United States at birth include "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person." Given this language, anyone born outside of American territory whose parents are US citizens and at least one parent lived on American territory before the birth of the person in question is a natural-born citizen. Actually being on American territory is not a requirement.

For people who did not have parents who are US citizens residing on American territory prior to the birth of the people in question, the issue of a territory acquired becomes extremely specific under other sections of 8 USC, which deal individually with Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands. In most cases a date after which point birth on that territory constituted natural-born citizenship status is specified - although in some cases the law had retroactive effect.

Incidentally, there is one case where being born on American territory does not confer citizenship, natural-born or otherwise - that being anyone born on American territory who is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. This is in the language of the 14th Amendment, and applies most often to children born on American territory to parents who are citizens of another nation and hold diplomatic immunity.

A good and reliable guide to these issues can be found at http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html - which is the source of the extracts I've posted here.

I hope this helps! It is a complex but thoroughly legislated topic.Professor Storyteller (talk) 08:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

When did the secretary of Homeland Security join the line of succession?

According to the article, Janet Napolitano is #17 in line to act as President. As far as I can tell, though, section 3 of the U.S. Code makes no mention of anybody beyond the Secretary of Veteran's affairs.

Was the law changed by Congress? And if so, when? Pine (talk) 21:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

One would presume that the same legislation which create the department would have addressed the secretary's place in the line of succession. In any case, this copy of the code shows the current line of succession, including the DHS.[1]   Will Beback  talk  22:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I looked in the "notes" section,[2] which says it was changed in 2006 pursuant to Public Law 109-177.   Will Beback  talk  22:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

President Pro Tempore of the United States Senate

On the US Senate website, the following information on the term of the president pro tempore of the US Senate: "The first sentence of Rule I of today's standing rules of the Senate provides that the president pro tempore shall hold the office 'during the pleasure of the Senate and until another is elected or his term of office as a Senator expires.'" Source - http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/President_Pro_Tempore.htm

In short, this means that if a Senator is elected president pro tempore of the Senate, he or she holds that position as long as their term lasts, unless the Senate choses someone else. Unlike the House, whose members terms all expire every two years in unison, the Senate has staggered term expiration for groups of roughly one third. As a result, in the time between sessions of the US Congress, roughly two-thirds of the Senators are still sworn members of the Senate. If the president pro tempore is among them, he or she is still president pro tempore in the intervening time. If not, then the position stands vacant, unless the Senate chooses a different president pro tempore on the final day of the session as they once routinely did in the 19th century.

I hope this helps!Professor Storyteller (talk) 07:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Hmm maybe you're right. I read in several articles that they had to elect him again in the 112th congress but the AP can be wrong... Um okay well why does it say that Robert Byrd served until January 3, 2007 and then again from January 3, 2007 until his death. I mean idk it just seemed to suggest that he is re-elected. Its hard to find when the votes were b/c they are not usually roll call votes. --Fshoutofdawater (talk) 08:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

That's because it lists them Congress by Congress rather than just a straight list of presidents, otherwise Byrd would be listed as just the one term. Richard75 (talk) 15:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Richard75 is correct - everything else about the legislative branch is broken out Congress by Congress, so the charts usually just alter the president pro tempore's term to match for ease and convenience. The Senate president pro tem is different as a result of presidential succession. In the 19th century, president pro tem was ahead of the Speaker of the House, and Congress did not stay in session anywhere near as long as they have in more recent times. With the Congress out of session for months, the Senate did not want the position vacant in the event presidential succession might require it. Thus, in the 19th century when vice presidents were a fixture in the Senate chamber, they would have the vice president step away from the chamber on the last day of the session and name a president pro tempore with the stipulation I quoted above, leaving the position filled during the recess in the event it was needed.

Later, in the 20th century, vice presidents shifted to other duties and ceased being a permanent presence in the Senate chamber, allowing standing presidents pro tempore, but the practice of keeping the position filled across terms was retained for reasons of presidential succession. Even when the position became ceremonial and its older duties were replaced by the position of Senate majority leader, and even when the Speaker of the House replaced president pro tem behind the vice president, the Senate has retained this practice, perhaps to ensure the position retains additional gravitas and dignity for the member they chose to honor with this title. Professor Storyteller (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Protection

Perhaps the page should be protected or at the very least semi-protected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.44.75.232 (talk) 16:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Eric Shinseki

Uh, why is Eric Shinseki labeled as a Democrat? Has he self-identified as one? Zzsignup (talk) 19:48, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I searched through the Proquest newspaper archive, and through his online bios, and I couldn't find any source for his party affiliation. It's better to leave it blank then get it wrong. I'll remove it. Anyone who can find a source can add it back.   Will Beback  talk  21:05, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Acting President vs Actual President

From this article:

however, there is also much evidence to the contrary, the most compelling of which is Article I, section 3, of the Constitution itself, the relevant text of which reads:

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the office of President of the United States.

I'm confused. How does that establish that the VP becomes President? To me it sounds like the exact opposite, that it's a clear statement that the VP merely becomes Acting President. If the VP became President, then that situation would be included under "absence of the Vice President" since there would no longer be a VP. Am I missing something that should be obvious? XinaNicole (talk) 19:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree. To "exercise" an office is not necessarily the same as to actually hold the office. Unless someone provides another interpretation soon I will delete that part. A Wikipedia article isn't really the place to discuss hypothetical legal arguments anyway, it should be confined to describing what actually happened. It is enough to say that there was a difference of opinion which was eventually settled by Tyler in 1841 and then codified in the 25th Amendment. Richard75 (talk) 20:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

After the Cabinet, then what

If the President, Vice President, Speaker of the House, President Pro Tempore and the whole cabinet are all unavailable, who becomes President? Nikofeelan (talk) 19:09, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

No one. Richard75 (talk) 20:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The presiding officer of the first house of Congress to elect one. In the truly catastrophic scenario where Congress and the Cabinet are all gone, that would almost certainly be the Senate, since enough states allow governors to appoint replacement senators to get a quorum pretty quickly. The House would take weeks to get back up and running unless we decided to ignore the Constitution and appoint temporary reps until full timers could be elected. -Rrius (talk) 22:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Acting Secretaries

I don't believe that a 'non-partisan think tank', gets to dictate the 1947 Presidential Succession Act. According to the 1947 Act, Acting cabinet heads are not in the line of succession. GoodDay (talk) 15:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"According to the Act..." By whose interpretation of the Act? I have provided a source which indicates that there are two ways of reading the Act, and which contrasts the 1947 Act with the different and less ambiguous wording of the 1886 Act, its predecessor. What have you cited? Oh wait, it's just your personal opinion. I don't want to start some edit war, so please change your edit back to the non-POV version of the article which I inserted, which notified the reader that there were two interpretations of the issue, as opposed to your "my way is the only way" version. Richard75 (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, it's obvious the Act covers Secretaries (including AG) & not Acting Secretaries. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

On reflection, I think that since you have left in the footnote about acting secretaries your edit might not be as POV as I first thought, apologies. I think it's ok as it is. Richard75 (talk) 12:54, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Acting Secretary of Commerce

Although it may be correct to say that the office of Secretary of Commerce is vacant, since currently Deputy Secretary Rebecca Blank is acting as secretary, this does not necessarily mean that she is not in the line of succession. This article explains that one interpretation of the law is that such officers are in the line of succession, and that in the past some such individuals have been told that they were. It would be best to leave Blank in, with a note alerting readers to the section of the article I have mentioned, rather than to leave her out altogether, which creates a false impression of the situation. Richard75 (talk) 18:04, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Until the situation arises to prove otherwise, we can't assume she's in the line-of-succession, as she's merely performing the duties of an cabinet member. GoodDay (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

We can't assume the contrary either. What we can no is try to be neutral and avoid POV. Richard75 (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

But we can assume the contrary. NPoV - calls for leaving the Acting Secretary of Commerce on the list, but bypassing it in the numbering of the line-up. Remember, she's still Deputy Secretary of Commerce. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, in D-1 of the 1947 Act, there's no listing of Acting officials as being in the line of succeeding to the powers & duties of the presidency. GoodDay (talk) 21:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protection

These seems to be more vandalism than usual on this article recently, for some reason. Can somebody semi-protect it for a couple of weeks? Richard75 (talk) 18:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Kerry not in line until February 1st when he takes office

Isn't Clinton still Secretary of State until Friday, February 1st? user:mnw2000 22:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Service Secretaries

I see the Secretaries of the Army, Navy and Air Force are not in the line-up. Is that right? 72.86.42.38 (talk) 22:32, 17 February 2013 (UTC)