Talk:World War II

This article was chosen as Article Improvement Drive article of the week on Sunday, 18th December 2005. The archive of the selection process can be found at Talk:World War II/AID vote archive

An event mentioned in this article is a September 1 selected anniversary.

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Important Facts

If anyone feels that an article needs to be edited, PLEASE leave the important information with the article. Some of this includes:

1) The operation's name and codename

2) A link to the main article about the event

3) The date it took place on, or the start/end dates

4) Where it took place

5) Main participators

6) What happened, in a short summery

(sorry for starting a new thread for this but I want to make sure people see it) MattD April 22/06

Edit summaries

Edit summaries - Avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates or negotiation over the content or to express opinions of the other users involved. Instead, place such comments, if required on the talk page. This keeps discussions and debates away from the article page itself. - copied from the Wiki guide page. -- Drogo Underburrow 16:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Design of the WWII page

The WWII page is a chronology of WWII, with a section of short paragraphs leading to main topics not suitable for inclusion in the chronology section due to their broad nature. The chronology should be limited to brief statements of events, with the primary purpose of linking to the main articles so that the reader can go to them for more detail. Editors should strive to be as brief as possible in the chronology, policing the text so it is as succinct as possible, not verbose and repetitive like I am being here. With all the topics to cover about WWII, that is the only way the page can be kept to a reasonable size. This article is not the place for adding details about WWII events, editors should take the links on this page to the main articles on their topic, and add the information there. Detailed information added to the article should be deleted from the article by the community, along with a note to this talk page regarding this editor's agreement.Drogo Underburrow 04:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

This format was universally disapproved of in the review for featured article status. I'm not sure that the reviewers even understood it, by their comments they seemed to think that the article was simply poorly written in narrative style. In any event, the paragraph above is pretty much out the window now, unless editors say otherwise. Drogo Underburrow 16:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

1939: War breaks out in Europe

Some obsessed idiot keep changing the article back - planting all sort of Polish-Soviet arguments into it. Hey, Mister whoever you are - don't you understand - this is an encyclopedia, not a dispute club, not an anti-Russian stress-relief website? Please please show that you really belong to civilized West, not to barbaric East - and behave yourself... Use your intelligence, not your soul and feeling. Once again - this is encyclopedia, think about the very concept of this place. Kind regards oleg100 10:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)oleg100

Dear Mr oleg100,

As You already this is an encyclopedia and calling anybody who doesn,t accept your version of history an idiot is just the same civilize as changing the article without discussion. --80.55.201.194 07:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Somebody still trying to "paint" the article in certain colour..:(( I am being patient so far. Please bear in mind that I can express myslef as well - and then you will see the note on Polish attempts to join Axis, occupation of Teshin, Polish decisive role in collapse of the attempts to create anti-Nazi coalition etc etc. I am not doing it just for one reason - I do not want this place to become "hate relief" boxing ring, but only provide dry info - and reference to differences in views if they are - for the user of encyclopedia to explore the subject further. One more time I am asking you - invisible editor - please do no try to put your views into this page,or dostpr the information by implying things with a certain expressions and the overall content of the info - otherwise I will have to do do the same if woldn't find another ways. Writing the article into the encyclopedia - is a great resposnsibility, think if you are mature enough to do it. a) Besides - what do you mean - "...Polish troops continued to fight with the Allies..." ? I think what you thought is quite different to what you said :)) b)"Polish givernment never surrendered" is an emotional propaganda statement - could be in place inthe article about Poland, but certainly not - in the general WW2 text. c) Once again - pact M-R was non aggression pact and an agreement on "zones of interests" to avoid possible conflict. Stating what you are trying to say in the article means that war on Poland was dedcided and agreed in the pact M-R, hence Germany and Russia planned and started WW2 together etc etc - this is bunch if lies, or , at least , seriouos misjudgements... If I feel you are not trying to srt things out, but only want to do what YOU like then I will stop wasting my time here, but just prevernt you from doing so. oleg100 08:11, 9 April 2006 (UTC)oleg100

Please Read about "secret protocol" of Molotov-Robbentrop pact and discuss with the others without screaming on them. --80.55.201.194 07:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I suggest this version - no mention of pact M-R, otherwise we would need to mention manyother things on pre-war arrangement, events etc - and who know how far we should go - historians still debating these things - thisd is a whole separate subject deserving the separate article - "how this could happen, had it happen at all, was ther any viable alternatives.."? - modified " continued to fight with Allies" :)) - with "continued to fight as part of Allied Forces and Red Army.." I understnad that you hate Red Army - but this is known dry fact that Polish formations were operating till the rest of the war as part of Allied forces and part of Red Army, and it is hard to say where Polish contribution was more significant, more important etc. Just saying "Allies" is misleading, because this term assumes and normally being used to refer to the Anglo-American forces. oleg100 08:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)oleg100

Besides - the very mentioning of the further participation of the Polish troops in the war - in this article - is a concession to your Polish pride :) - there were so many national formations involved in the war on different sides - I do not see this is being the subject of this article. So - if you do not like "Red Army" in the context - I do not mind you remove the whole statement.. oleg100 08:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)oleg100

It is my edits you changed, and I am not a Pole, nor even a Polish partisan, so stop with the off-topic rhetoric. All I want is a simple, concise, factual, paragraph written in proper English, that serves to give a chronology and point to the main links on this topic. You object to mentioning the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact at all unless its in depth. That is not acceptable. This pact led to the start of the war. There is nothing wrong with a brief statement, one sentence only, that such a pact was signed. I suggest you add it yourself, then we will have some idea of what you feel must be said. But keep it brief, at the most a short paragraph. Drogo Underburrow 08:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

"This pact led to the start of the war" - exactly the point of 180 degree disagreement - hence to go somewhere else - this is not just you and me, you know that this disagreement is serious and widespread. We can debate about it somewhere else :)). Thank you for your patience and will to agree on things. Regards oleg100 13:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)oleg100

Actually, I would also agree with Drogo on this (as, I vaguely recollect from my undergradute studies decades ago, would many mainstream historians). The signing of the M-R Pact allowed Hitler to attack Poland without fear of intervention against his actions by the Soviets. Hence, it led to the start of the war. Many people can probably debate at length what would have happened if the Pact had not been signed, but that is not the focus of the main WWII article. Signing of the Pact made Hitler's decision to invade far simpler. (I'm not Polish either!) --Habap 14:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

1939: War breaks out in Europe

I edited the text a bit - an suggest all parties to agree with this change. As in all changes I do - I aim to get an acceptable for all sides solution. We should rememeber that this is an encyclopedia, not the palce for debating, or fight, or exploration, We should use as less adjectives as possible, but more verbs and nouns :))) If there are dofferent views - then encyclopeida must inform of all reasonably known/common views - for the reader to know what is it about or what is going on - and not to indoctrinate.. So - the changes and reasons - a reduced a bit and balanced a bit the statement of further faitht of Polish troops - this article about the beginning of a war, hence other detials should be in a separate "Polish contribution to war" - it is big subject in itself we will talk to you about - in that section discusssion :)) hence we should not distort it here by talking small part of it. Next - Molotoff-Ribbentrop got nothing to do with Russian advance to Poland, there was nothing in it about running war against Poland or occupying it. It was about securing the "zones of interest" - on the same way as everybody did and does it today. Russia did not endorsed German invasion in this treaty, nor Germans needed Russian approval for this war - they decided to go for war, they did it - and Russian secured their own interests in the given situation. This was in Russian interests and the only things they could do after the attempts to creat any anti-German coalition including Russia, Poland and Allies failed (and this is another hell of a topic to discuss :)) ). I put a comment that Russian occupieed easto fo Poland according to agreed with Germans zones - and that what M-R pact agreed upon. "Joined Russian-German forced" is also deliberately misleading statement. Do I need to explain why, or the author of thisstatement just playing games here? oleg100 07:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)oleg100

I have changed the part about the Soviet involvement in the dismemberement of Poland, making it a simple statement of facts and adding links to a much more detailed article on the subject.Chestnut ah 15:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Polish September Campaign and Soviet Union as part of Axis Powers

Polish September Campaign lasted only about one week shorter than the Battle of France in 1940 and should not be forgotten that Poland fought again two invaders Germany and Soviet Union (As the primary part of Axis Powers) without any help (Great Britain has succoured France in 1940) i think that facts should be noted in Wikipedia. - unsigned comment

This information is all in the article, look in the section on Poland in the chronology. Drogo Underburrow 09:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I understand, but the rule of Soviet Union in WW II is improtant also in the World History not only in Poland history. You want to contest fact that Soviet Union attaced Poland at 17 September 1939 as primary part of Axis Powers and became one of Alies scarcely after Germans attac in 1941? Best Regards Tlumaczek 11:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The Soviet Union was technically never an Axis Power, and never was at war with the Allies. The article already says that the USSR invaded Poland in 1939; it also says that Britain and France gave no help and dis-honored thier treaties. What more do you want? Drogo Underburrow 09:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

In "Dates of joining Allies" we can see:

1. Poland: 1939, 1 September
2. United Kingdom: 1939, 3 September

The Soviets attack take's place at 17 September 1939 when Poland was a part of Alies.

"Technicaly" the therm The Axis talks only about "Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis" and we talk about Romania, Slovakia and Finland as a parts of Axis Powers (I have no doubt You know Finland became Germany co-belligerent after being attacked by the Soviet Union (One of the Alies?) in 1939.

Let's talk about what we treat "technicaly" and what not.

About Britain and France help in September 1939 i said nothing :-).

Best Regards Tlumaczek 10:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an ecyclopedia, Mr Tlumaczek, not the place for exhibition of the anti-Russian fantasies and obsessions. Even at the top of Cold War nobody dared to call USSR to be a part of Axis. At least you should agree that this idea - no matter how dearest to you - is not cooked well enough - to be presented in encyclopedia. Besides Russian advance to Poland took place when Polish government left the country, i.e. the country collapsed and power seized to exist. Not very friendly act of Stalin anyway heh? Sure thing. If you remember how hard Poland tried to join Axis - against USSR, if you look how far Allies went in Munchen 1938 - who can blame Stalin for caring about the interests of his own country at the cost of Poland? Anyway - we can go on and on with this debate in some better place - here we should agree on cold facts - and if there is a disagreement - then just present info without any emotions and propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oleg100 (talk • contribs)

Dear Mr Anonymous. If somebody is talking about this with emotions it's not me. I don't want to talk with you about September Campaign facts because you can tell me I'm biased. Let's talk about facts we both know.

1. You say Stalin caring about the interests of his own country. Ok but please tell me why after the war he didn't gave back this territory? And why he make half of a Europe the satelites of Soviet Union?
2. How big signification could this territory have for big Soviet Union? In German attack it was only hal a day.
3. What about Katyn massacre it also was a part of caring about the interests of his own country?
4. You say Polish government left the country but what made French government? What made Stalin. I remember he went to Kuybyshev right after he heard about german attack. Lefting the country by government during the war isn't nothing extraordinary.
5. Tell me pelease one fact which authorize to say "Poland hard tried to join Axis" only one please. When you will tell me it I will agree with You that I exhibit my the anti-Russian fantasies.

Best Regards "Mr" Tlumaczek

Mr Tlumaczek,

If the argument is about whether the Soviet Union was part of the Axis powers, I don't think you'll find any historians or Wikipedians who would agree with you that the Soviets were part of the Axis. On the other hand, everyone would agree that Stalin was an opportunist, seizing portions of Poland in 1939 and post-war, executing Polish officers who would most certainly have been willing to fight him again (execution of prisoners of war) and doing anything he could to secure Soviet hegemony over as much territory possible. Few would argue against a statement that Stalin ruled a violent and evil empire, but the Soviet Union, for all it's faults, was not part of the Axis at any time. (Their agreement with Hitler was a Non-Aggression Pact, which is not the same as an alliance.) --Habap 17:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mr Habap,

I'm not a screamer who intend to capsize whole Wikipedia. I'm only trying to start constructive discussion. I can show you Many east european and other sources which say that Soviet Union was primary part of the Axis. But this is not my purpose. Manny people in West Europe and USA think about East European people like screamers which want to make away western thinking about the war. On the other side people in East Europe thinking that West Europe with it's version of history want to legitimize "betrayal" or it's interests wit Russia. I think we both don't have right. War is a war and it has it's own rules. Let's talk about the history and don't scream on each other. Tlumaczek 06:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't claim you were a screamer. The Soviet Union acted in concert with the Axis but was not a member of the alliance. I really have no idea what your point in the above statement is, but I do concur that Western Europe failed to ensure the safety or freedom of Eastern Europeans from the 1930s onward. Of course, when you look at how effectively France and Britain were able to oppose the German blitzkrieg, it seems that they wouldn't have been very effective in keeping any part of Eastern Europe secure. --Habap 14:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Finland

I suggest changes in the caption concerning the war in Finland 1944. It is now in contradiction with several other articles in Wikipedia. - Wehrmacht troops did not leave the southern coast of Gulf of Finland before late autumn 1944, when armistice had alreadhy been made. Therefore the mention of the Finnish army's unteable situation is plain wrong. See "Tali-Ihantala" in Wikipedia.

jukka.kemppinen@kolumbus.fi

Why isn't Winter war listed in 1939 battle theatres? I would add it myself, but since being a beginner, I didn't figure out how to do it. Latre

The retreat cut the ground link with the Finns. This indeed is correct, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica. Drogo Underburrow 09:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

According to books written specifically on Siege of Leningrad, German operations in Batlic states and Finnish operations in the Continuation War, Finns and Germans never established ground link. (F.ex. Platonov:"Bitva za Leningrad", Maanpuolustuskorkeakoulu:"Jatkosodan historia 1-6", Glantz:"The Battle for Leningrad") --Whiskey 10:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I only read English. However, I won't argue, since the WWII article is only a pointer to main articles on the Finnish war, so if you don't want the link mentioned, I won't insist. Drogo Underburrow 11:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, (and I do believe I'm correct here, but don't have any source at hand), the sieged Leningrad always had access to Lake Ladoga (that's how they got some supplies in), and that would exclude any contact on land between German and Finnish troops. Where exactly are they supposed to have had contact, or a "ground link"? Shanes 12:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Technologies

On a related note does anyone else think that the Technologies section has gotten way too large. I would recommend reducing this to a single paragraph and spinning the rest off into a separate article. DJ Clayworth 14:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I second that motion....I've been thinking the same thing, but have not acted for fear that it would be objected to. Drogo Underburrow 01:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well Ithink it is to small and focus way to much on western and nazi developments. Also one could asume from reading it that the panther tank was the same as the IS-3 tank when i reality the IS-3 was extremly many times better and not to mention the T-44 was also many times better in everything, speed, fire power, protection, cost, endurance and so on and so forth. (Deng 21:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC))

Not wanting to get involvolved in this discussion, I nevertheless could not resist the temptation to point to this article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4443934.stm Stor stark7 21:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki on Horten Ho 229

and also: EMW C2 Wasserfall, BV 246 "Hagelkorn, Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4, Horten HO 229, Amerika Bomber, Stor stark7 09:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you deleted to much Drogo in the technologies section, because now there is no mention of Soviet develpoment and in the linking article Technology during World War II very little, almost nothing is mentioned about Soviet technologies. (Deng 19:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

Date of Entry of USSR

It is not disputed that the USSR invaded Poland in 1939. However, the Allies did not declare war on the USSR. Therefore, it is wrong to say that "The war began with Germany and then the Soviet Union invading Poland in September, 1939" as the Soviet Union was not at war. Please stop changing the introduction on this point. Include whatever you want to say on this issue in the 1939 Chronology section that deals with the invasion of Poland. Drogo Underburrow 08:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The Finland did not declare war on the United Kingdom and other Alies nevertheless we call it one of the Axis Powers. The Soviet Union invaded Poland, one of The Alies but did not declare war on the others. Therefore I think we must aslo call it one of The Axis. Regardless it is consistent with your opinion or not. --80.55.201.194 12:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The Soviet Union never did declare war to Finland at November 30, 1939. In fact, Soviet diplomats and Molotov went to great lengths to explain how there is no war between Soviet Union and Finland and pictures in papers how Soviet leadership and 'Government of Finland' signed several treaties and agreements. --Whiskey 13:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Finland is never called an Axis power in this article. Technically, the Soviet Union never went to war against Poland. Polish troops fought on the Soviet side later in the war, and the area of Poland invaded by the Soviet Union was no longer Polish after the war. No sources I know of say that the USSR was ever an Axis power, so we cannot say it in the article. Drogo Underburrow 12:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The Soviet Union never went to war against Poland because the area of Poland invaded by the Soviet Union was no longer Polish after the war. So if the whole area of Europe where now german we will say that there was no war in Europe? Only a part of polish troops fought on Soviet side. The communist government was never accepted by Poles. The Soviets were allies of necessity (Churchil said "If Hitler attacked hell, I would gladly make a deal with the devil"). Many polish and other sources I know say that the USSR was primary an Axis power. It was convenient for the wes european goverments and historian to not call Soviet Union one of the Axis but we can discuss about it without any particular business. The Wikipedia is so goog source because people discuss about that what they think. About the Finland: It's not called an Axis power in this article but in "The Axis" it is. 80.55.201.194 13:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The war did, in fact, begin with both Germany and the Soviet Union attacking Poland. That the Soviets didn't fight again in Europe until the Germans attacked them is immaterial to whether they invaded Poland. The average person reading the introduction would either wonder why we left the Soviets out or get the impression that the Soviets didn't invade (even if we include that as one of the "minor details" in the body of the article). --Habap 14:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Axis or German?

SuperDeng likes to replace Germany to Axis at numerous places. I do't think it is a good idea. F.ex. at 1944 Eastern front: There was no units from other countries in Baltic during retreat to Narwa-line. Army Group Center was German formation, not some co-operative of different countries. As Germans provided the bulk of the armies at Ukraine and Bug river, I'd prefer to use Germans instead of axis. Of course, if Romanians did something themselves, then they should addressed so.--Whiskey 09:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

There were always elemts of axis allies in every army untill ofcurse each specific axis member was forced to surrender, also the invasion of the Soviet Union was by the axis not only germany some 1 million axis allies were included in the invasion in june 1941 (Deng 11:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC))

Deng, please tell me for example how many units of other axis nations belong to the German 16. and 18. Armies of Army Group North? (Correct answer: None) So: Your claim is false. --Whiskey 13:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Compromise...lets leave "Axis" in describing the main invasion, but not in the other two cases. It was Germans who assaulted Moscow, and Germans who badly underestimated Soviet forces. Drogo Underburrow 12:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Well ok but it was ofcurse axis who assulted moscow but I wont touch it (Deng 15:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC))

Mention of Countries other than the Major Powers

Britain and France declared war on Germany on 3 September, with Canada declaring war a week later on 10 September, but otherwise dishonored their treaties with Poland by failing to provide Poland with military assistance. - from the article.

I am going to delete the addition of the part in boldface, for two reasons. First, it doesn't fit the sentence and I don't feel like fixing it. I think that if an editor is going to add material to the article, he or she should take the time to make sure it fits into the sentence he or she is adding it to. That is not the case here. Secondly, is the date of entry of Canada to the war important enough to rate inclusion in the article? If so, where does the inclusion of countries stop? Are we going to list the date of entry of ALL countries that fought in the war? That would be a long list. One could argue that Canada made a large contribution to the war effort and rates mention. Ok, fine; but then the next country that made close to Canada's contribution deserves a mention, and so on until we end up having to mention them all again. So I'm going to delete it on the grounds that we only mention entry of the major powers in the article, and leave it to someone else to define a new rule for inclusion if they don't like mine. Drogo Underburrow 03:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Justly. I usually disagree with You but now I calcine your decision. Important in this sentence is that Britain and France declared war on Germany right after german attack on Poland. When another countries did it this is the next thing. Tlumaczek 07:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. Mentioning Canada would mean mentioning all the other countries and then the sentence becomes unwieldy. We have to realise that in an article of limited length we can't mention every participating country in everything. DJ Clayworth 17:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

War Crimes and Attacks on Civilians

This section has grown as editors keep adding things here instead of on the pages devoted to this topic. I propose a drastic cut as the only way to get things under control. All material here will be moved to other pages, and a single paragraph will be put in its place mentioning the War crime trials, and a few brief sentences to talk about the links to other major WWII atrocity pages. Sound good? After this change, the article will go from 77k to 73k. Drogo Underburrow 07:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

If the only reason is the growing length, we should concentrate on numbers, not on full sentences. Furthermore we should mention omly high number crimes (e.g. 40000 min.) To simply cut it would be wrong as most of these war crimes directly belong to WW2. So I suggest to summarize like e.g. Eastern Front.--Number 17 18:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Its more than that. Editors are using this page to start material, not putting it on the main pages. I suggest we keep it to links only, so that the other pages will develop, and then we can summarise them. -- Drogo Underburrow 18:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Droge, could you please help me on the article Red Army atrocities. I have the feeling it is grammatically poor.--Number 17 11:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, I'll take a look and fix any grammar errors. In the future, you can message me directly by using my talk page. Drogo Underburrow 11:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Aftermath; European Union

I suggest to lift out the references to the EU found in the UN subsection and making it into a subsection of itself. My proposal is below. I really do not understand why the EU is mentioned in the United Nations subsection, the EU article mentions no involvement of the UN in its creation.

P.S. 1:

The UN subsection probably would need a disambiguition between The Allies and The United Nations. It really confused me a while back when I was reading some WW2 letters. The Allies called themselves the UN during the war. The term Allies seems to be a mothern invention?!?. Se this paragraph from the history of the UN section:

The term "United Nations" was coined by Winston Churchill during World War II, to refer to the Allies (see History of the United Nations). Its first formal use was in the January 1, 1942 Declaration by the United Nations, which committed the Allies to the principles of the Atlantic Charter and pledged them not to seek a separate peace with the Axis powers. Thereafter, the Allies used the term "United Nations Fighting Forces" to refer to their alliance.

P.S. 2:

This paper made a lot of sence as to the importance of the iron and coal fields of western germany for the war(s)

France, Germany and the Struggle for the War-making Natural Resources of the Rhineland

A New Europe

Main article: History of the European Union

The European Union grew out of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), which was founded in 1951, by the six founding members: Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg (the Benelux countries) and West Germany, France and Italy. Its purpose was to pool the steel and coal resources of the member states, thus preventing another European war.

The EU has evolved from a trade body into an economic and political partnership. Stor stark7 16:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

---

I don't see what the connection is to WWII. Rather than create a new section, delete the material entirely. In fact, I almost did that a few days ago, but didn't simply cause it would have made the UN section almost empty. Not a good reason to keep something, I know. Drogo Underburrow 17:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I guess the coal and steel union might have at least a tennous connection to WW2. The connection between it and the EU is not straightforward however. Anyway I won't complain if that section is removed. Maybe if someone later comes along with some expertice in the area it can be reinstaded. Stor stark7 18:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Removal of mention of Dieppe, and Lidice

Someone put in a long section on Stalingrad, while deleting entirely the entries on the Dieppe Raid and the assasination of Reinhard Heydrich. I think that deleting very short, pithy entries that are in appropriate places and most importantly link to substantial main articles is wrong. The one on Dieppe could have been condensed a bit, but I don't see entirely eliminating it. The one on Heydrich was barely one or two sentences which linked to two major articles, including the one on the Lidice Massacre. Any thoughts? Drogo Underburrow 17:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Stalingrad

Someone recently expanded this into four substantial paragraphs. This is exactly the type of material I feel the WWII page does not need. The material is not a summary intended to link to a main article, its an exposition on a topic in itself. Furthermore, its not even directly about Stalingrad, but like a book starts with the strategic origins of the battle and discusses the entry of the US to the war. This is going way off topic. This is fine for a main article, but completely out of place here. I think this entry should be reverted entirely. While the original material on Stalingrad was inadequate, this is worse. Drogo Underburrow 17:46, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. This section is at least twice as long as it should be, and even in that reduced length it should be covering all of the Eastern Front action for that period and not just Stalingrad. DJ Clayworth 17:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Question about Main Article Sub-headings

Where should the Main article listing be posted?

Under the Year headings

like this

1939: War breaks out in Europe

Main article: [[:Munich Agreement, Polish September Campaign, Russo-Finnish War, Second Battle of the Atlantic, and Phony War]]

or

for example you look here

Europe

The invasion of Denmark and Norway

Main article: Norwegian Campaign

In the 1939 Section, the main articles are posted under the 1939 Heading, where as in the 1940 Section, the main articles are posted not under the 1940 Section but under the various sub-headings.

This format needs to be corrected before this article is ready for Featured Article.

Its the latter, just like you did in the article. Good job :-) -- Drogo Underburrow 09:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Life photo

Good job adding the Life magazine photo, and the section on Italy, and all the new stuff. The page is looking better and better, and the size is still 6 or 7k less than it used to be. :-) -- Drogo Underburrow 14:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hehe. Thanks. I was bored so I decided to spend a couple of hours fixing up this article. I added the photos and they go together with the sub-sections. I think this article is almost done. Just a few more touch-ups, little article clean up. And its done. -- Mercenary2k 11:43 AM, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

1944 East Asia and the Pacific is left to be fixed

There is some info missing in regards to the Japanese offensive in India and the battle in Burma.

Also this section is very list heavy.

I am gonna change it to a paragraph style format.

I think this is the only major thing left on this article

-- Mercenary2k 11:46 AM, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

This Article is done

I think this article is done.

I fixed this part 1944 East Asia and the Pacific

If anyone has a better way of conveying the info, then go ahead.

I added all the important pictures, fixed up a couple of articles, added a couple of new ones.

It could require clean up, such as grammer, spelling, etc... which require a fresh set of eyes.

But anyways, this article is done.

Ciao for now

-- Mercenary2k 11:46 AM, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Images

Two points: Firstly there are far too many images in this article, evry paragraph has an accompanying photo or map. It's unnecessary, all that kind of detail can be had in the relevant main article. I know this has been brought up before but it hasn't been addressed. Secondly, the images appear to be forced to 250px size, this over-rides the viewer's preferences and seems unnecessary, unless I'm missing something here. Leithp 15:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was the one who re-sized all images to 250px. The reason I did that was, so that article looks better. Photos with different sizes gives a very jumbled up look to the article. Since all photos are of one size, the article looks clean and redable.

Also, just wondering, why did you remove this image,

File:Battle of Rostov (1941) - Eastern Front 1941 06 to 1941 12.png

German advances during Operation Barbarossa from June 1941 to December 1941.

Its a pretty important image in my opinion conveying the advance of german forces during barbarossa.

Thanks

Mercenary2k

I removed the map because that section had too many images and was overflowing into following sections. I agree that it's a good map though, so perhaps removing one of the photos might have been better. My thought was that campaign specific maps can be got from the relevant article and general maps are more appropriate here though. As far as image sizing goes, my understanding is that by using |thumb| the images always go to a size determined by the reader's preferences, so there isn't a need to size them individually. Leithp 18:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought giving every section a photo was nice. It does require follow up, as changing the article requires changing the photos. Drogo Underburrow 15:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Bismarck

scuttled at sea on May 24 after having been crippled by an unlucky aerial torpedo hit

This is an idiomatic expression, not a POV statement of luck. It describes that the hit was one that was of a freak nature, not normal. The Bismarck was hit in the rudder. That alone is highly improbable, for a warship to get hit in the rudder. But to make it even more a freak occurrance, the hit occured when the rudder was hard over, as the Bismarck was turning to avoid torpedos. The hit jammed the rudder in the hard over position, and that was fatal to the entire ship. Had it been hit in the rudder while the rudder was straight, the ship could still turn by using its engines alone. But with the rudder kicked hard over, the ship was doomed to sail in a circle, no amount of engine differential could compensate. Now, how do you want to communicate this briefly? By saying it suffered a lucky or (unlucky) hit. This is not about POV, or from whose point of view the luck is. Its an idiomatic expression, not a literal one. Technically, its unlucky from the Bismarck's point of view, since the sentence is describing the ship. Had the sentence been refering to the aircraft firing the torpedo, it would properly be called a "lucky" hit. Would you prefer it being called a "lucky" hit? That's fine with me. Drogo Underburrow 15:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Comments on Featured Article voting page

People are complaining about the size and detail of the table of contents. They don't seem to realise that the table makes it easy to go directly to whatever section of the war one is interested in. Once at that section, its easy to find the link to the main article....the purpose of this page. People are treating this article in isolation from the rest of Wikipedia as if its designed to stand alone. Drogo Underburrow 09:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Largest and deadliest war in history

That WWII was the largest and deadliest war in history is a fact. Therefore, we should say so in the introduction, without qualifiers like "It is widely considered". -- Drogo Underburrow 02:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the main reason that verbiage was there was for reasons of prose style. The first paragraph now feels very clunky. I am tempted to move the phrase down to the casualties paragraph, but then that would leave the first paragraph rather barren. Redquark 02:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It is beyond me how adding a useless qualifier to a simple sentence improves prose style. - Drogo Underburrow 03:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

What more needs to be done

Before this article had many sub-headers, a choice which I agreed with due to the complex nature of the war and each battle and offensive getting its due.

But on the recent commnets in the FAC, other editors removed all the sub-headers. This made the article very confusing to read through. I have decided to seperate the article based on European and Pacific theatre. All battles that took place in Wester/Eastern Europe, Mediterranean, Atlantic, Africa are all now in European theatre. All battles that took place in Central Pacific, South-West Pacific, South East Asia, and Far East are now in Pacific theatre. Bascially all battles with Germany are in European, all battles with Japan are in Pacific. I think this is the best way to satisfy all parties and keeping the article in good shape.

Also, the main articles links needs to be added. There were a few missing and I tried filling those up. But more needs to be done on that part.

Mercenary2k

UK and Commonwealth

The UK was a part of the British Commonwealth during WWII. Therefore, it is redundant to list "UK and Commonwealth" in the article. It is like saying "California and the United States". Drogo Underburrow 17:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Order of countries in the infobox

The order I recommend is chronological order of entry to the war. This eliminates POV problems of trying to decide which country is "more important" than the others and to be listed first. -- Drogo Underburrow 19:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

World War II documents

Hello Everyone,

I run a large internet archive of government documents, and have just expanded the World War II section by thousands of pages. I am very concerned to link to these documents, or write about them, in fear of it considered as Spam.

I talked with one of the administrators on Wikipedia, and they suggested I use the talk page to see if others would find it a useful resource.

You can see the documents here:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/content-10.html

I hope this may be of interest, and may be considered to be added as a link/resource on the World War II page. What do you think?

--Blackvault 22:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure, its cool with me. Mercenary2k 12:04 AM april 19 2006

Me, too. kevin_b 3:11 PM April 24 2006

Add Smithsonian Education link?

Hello! I am a writer for the Smithsonian Institution's Center for Education and Museum Studies, which publishes Smithsonian in Your Classroom, a magazine for teachers. An online version of an issue titled "Letters from the Japanese American Internment" is available for free at this address:

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/japanese_internment/index.html

The issue tells the story of San Diego librarian Clara Breed and her correspondence with young San Diegans sent to the internment camp at Poston, Arizona. In lesson plans, students compare letters from internees. They consider the prismatic nature of the historic record and the value of primary sources in understanding history.

If you think your audience would find this valuable, I wish to invite you to include it as an external link. We would be most grateful.

Thank you so much for your attention.

Images

It seems like this article has an excessive number of imaes. At least 5 of them could probably go. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions as to which ones should go? --Hetar 17:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The images look good. Why mess with it? Drogo Underburrow 22:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --[user:kevin_b]

There's an image in the 'Aftermath' section that says it is a map of the occupation zones but is a photo of a modern British tank. If I follow the link it goes to the map. I can't work out what's happening. Would someone else like to take a look? DJ Clayworth 13:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I see a map of the occupation zone. Maybe it's a problem at your end, have you tried clearing the cache of your browser? Leithp 13:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

What more needs to be done with this article

Ok Guys,

So far things look good.

But, we still need to fix up the Pacific War theatre.

We only have a passing refernce to the Sino-Japanese War, 60% of all Japanese forces were tied up in China, so we need to expand upon that and like some of the paragraphs to the Sino-Japanese battles...

I am gonna start on it.

But I could use your help

Mercenary2k April 22, 2006, 10:06 PM

Ok, I did my self. I added info about the Sino-Japanese war and all the missing links are complete on this article. Mercenary2k April 23, 2006, 1:58 AM

60% were did you get that from and during what time frame is that? (Deng 16:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC))

Semiprotecting

The amount of IP vandalism is getting ridiculous. I have semiprotected for a breathing-space. Bishonen | talk 18:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC).

Ah, yes, one can always vandalize the talkpage

Apparently one throwaway IP, 70.171.217.201, was so upset to find the article s-protected that s/he blanked the talkpage instead. Please help revert talkpage vandalism, folks, so we don't have to s-protect that as well. Bishonen | talk 19:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC).

Battle of Rostov Image too dark

I find it hard to tell the differences between the colours on my monitor. I used GIMP to darken the image, and uploaded it. Anyone who has better image editting ability than me, feel free to step in. New version is here; [1]

Shite. Just noticed there are loads of images based of the same map that are too bright. I'm gonna try and contact the author instead of changing all these pictures. This was probably a mistake. Sorry! I'll leave my altered image on this page for the time being in the hopes of gathering opinion. --CalPaterson 11:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Intro wording

Germany betrayed and invaded its partner, the Soviet Union, forcing the Soviets into the Allied camp

I think that sentance makes it seem as if the Soviets were not preparing for war with Hitler. Myciconia 09:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Who says they were? -- Drogo Underburrow 14:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Russian historians for starters! Wikipedia mentions directly Viktor Suvorov, Mikhail Meltyukhov (Stalin's Missed Chance), Edvard Radzinsky. The USSR was obviously in a massive military build up, and Mein Kampf outlines Hitlers goal to destroy bolshevism and make a slave state out of the east. I believe Stalin claimed the invasion was necessary to create a buffer zone, although that is part propoganda, it does make strategic sense. Hitler could secure the eastern boarder until western europe was conquered, and Stalin could let the capitialists fight it out while the soviets built up their forces. Myciconia 21:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Preparing for war? Armies are always preparing for war. The U.S. has plans for invading lots of other countries; but that doesn't mean the United States has decided to go to war. I'm sure the Soviets had plans to invade Germany; but that doesn't mean Stalin intended to carry out those plans. Plans are contingent. Plans mean nothing. Now if you say that Stalin intended to go to war, there's no proof of that. Drogo Underburrow 02:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what the above comment refers to. Myciconia 03:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The existence of invasion plans doesnt mean that the Soviets were preparing for war with Hitler. As an example, the U.S. drew up War Plan Red against the possibility of war with Canada, at the same time maintaining a large army. You can't put those two facts together and say that the U.S. was actively preparing for war with its northern neighbor, though. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 21:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I am sure Stalin had plans to invade Germany! But what does that have to do with the wording of the sentance at the top? Myciconia 19:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I erased my own post after informing myself more. --A Sunshade Lust

Broken references

The links in the references section appear to be somewhat messed up. There are two completely different "war8" notes and the notes "war", "war2", "war3", "war4", "war6" and "war7" aren't actually referenced from anywhere in the article. I wouldn't be surprised if the material they were referencing has been moved off into one of the sub-articles, I've seen that happen on other large articles, but I'm not up to the size of the sleuthing mission an article group this big and complicated would entail to find them right now. Does anyone know offhand where these references belong? Bryan 07:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Reason for Democratization of Japan

The article reads "the United States's military occupation of Japan led to Japan's democratization.". I believe this should be changed as it suggests that if the U.S. had not occupied Japan for the two years in between the surrender and the adoption of the consitution, Japan would not have a constitution as it has. I really can't say this is true in any way, as even during WWII the Japanese people were not exactly supportive of their government and would of most likely made a government as they have now, if they had the chance. With the defeat of Japan, it was to be expected that a more democratic government would take place, and it has.

If anyone knows how the sentence should be replaced, go ahead, as I'm not sure we can write in just one sentence the reason why Japan became as it is. I have to leave and will do the change myself when I get back, unless someone has a valid reason to disagree or unless it was changed properly. --A Sunshade Lust 17:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that the sentence suggests that, although I think it is highly unlikely Japan would have the constitution it has now without the occupation. Japan was in a very perilous position when occupied, as one would expect, and without the occupation and the efforts of MacCarthur (a man of whom I am NOT a fan) among others, Japan would likely be a very different place today. Perhaps other factors in other circumstances could have led to a modern Japan similar to what we see today, but togo down the road of that type of speculation is endless. The fact remains, for good or bad, it was the occupation that led to Japan's modern form.

It is wrong however to say "the United States's military occupation of Japan". As the wikipedia article on Occupied Japan says, the Allied powers occupied Japan, with the United States military taking the leading role.

I guess you could say something like "Following the Allied occupation, the modern, democratic Japan emerged." Although I actually think my sentence is worse. aussietiger 15:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

First land defeat for Japan

I have just a small correction perhaps. The first defeat for the Japanese army occured at Milne Bay in PNG, not on the Kokoda track. Although it isn't clear if the article is talking about defeat in a battle or a campaign (how do you classify each anyway?). I guess that some one may well come up with an earlier, more obscure defeat possibly, but Milne Bay is regerded as the first defeat as far as I know.