Talk:Demeter

Feedback on the article

This is not a nice article. Reading it was really painful. This article needs to be written in a more elegant style. The "Titles and roles" section is very ugly. It needs a decent amount of work.

The article says: "In an alternate version, Hecate rescued Persephone. In other alternative versions, Persephone was not tricked into eating the pomegranate seeds but chose to eat them herself. In the latter version it is claimed that Ascalaphus, one of Hades' gardeners, claimed to have witnessed her do so, at the moment that she was preparing to return with Hermes." Is it possible to provide sources for such "alternate versions"? ICE77 (talk) 06:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Needs more

Anthele. The Malian town had a temple of Demeter on par with Apollo's at Delphi and which with it helped form the Great Amphictyonic League that united the Hellenes. Pretty important stuff to be missing... — LlywelynII 04:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

demeter is the goddess of corn and harvest and her symbols are lion,torch,wheat,cornucopia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.135.44 (talk) 00:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Goddess of 'hardness'?

Uh, goddess of the hardness? Should hardness be replaced with harvest?

Johnjstanton (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Just another of those "editing tests" (so named when we assume good faith. Now reverted. Haploidavey (talk) 20:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Infobox

This edit summary made me laugh (and by the way have been watching the progress here - nice!). Did you know that the infobox isn't necessary? I wouldn't mind seeing the article with an image and no infobox - too much junk in the infobox. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Hey, thanks. I'll be bold, then. The current image should go back to the dressing-up box but alas, I've found no substitute of adequate quality. Haploidavey (talk) 12:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Have you looked on Commons? Or a new one can be uploaded if we don't have a good one. Adding: I had a quick look there and the description for the current image says it's Hera, so should probably be changed. Here's one of Demeter. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

That seems a better option than the one we have, which is Hera/Juno rebuilt as Demeter. Labeling at Commons isn't always too hot; there are several images of Ceres that might be copies of Greek Demeters, a la Graeco-Roman syncretism. I guess genuine Greek Demeter statuary would be inscribed with her name, or hail from the 3rd century BC or before. Our authentic Demeters at Commons seem sadly defaced and crumbly, or not terribly well-photographed. I thought of using the vase-painting image (currently further down in the article) but another good, clean image of something authentic and reasonably intact would be great. Haploidavey (talk) 15:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that they're all crumbly and not great. I think the one from the vase is quite beautiful and it would work as the lead image. When I have a chance I'll dig around a bit to see whether I can find anything better and report back. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

All I can find is this bowl which maybe we can use anyway. I think the vase is nicer. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:25, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm with you there. I've replaced the main image with the one you linked previously. And I've done away with the infobox format entirely, partly because I don't know how to adjust image sizes within them, partly because this article had no less than four boxes of various kinds, and... um, that's it, really. I agree with you on the relative merits of the vase paintings. What we already have seems a better bet (and more gorgeous) than t'other; but on the other hand, it might be rather too myth-specific for an introductory lead-in. What d'you reckon? Haploidavey (talk) 19:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree - it's a gorgeous piece, but too myth specific. It's better without the infobox because it prevents people from adding stuff that's unwanted. I laughed at some of the things you pulled out. Oh and btw - the link to the bowl, links to a good website with a fairly good set of sources. I haven't been watching this too closely, only noticed the work that was going into it and happy to see it because it's one of those pages that's on my watchlist that I always think I'll get to but never do. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in this subject area, they (infoboxes) fall someplace between useless and misleading. We've managed (quite happily) to avoid them in articles on Roman religion - a far less popular area, if the visit counters are anything to go by. Haploidavey (talk) 20:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree. We've avoided them on article relating to Germanic religion for exactly the reasons you mention. In fact, I say they should go from all mythology articles, including Greek. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Commons description: Demeter and Metanira. Detail of the belly of an Apulian red-figure hydria, ca. 340 BC.

I'm arriving late and fairly randomly to this party, but what was the gorgeous image from a Greek vase painting again? Demeter and the Eleusinian Mysteries are MUCH better and more extensively and characteristically documented on vase paintings than in sculpture, and I'd rather see a distinctively Greek image at the top rather than a "Roman copy". (Completely agree that descriptions at Commons suck. Not only are they often missing most info, so that I'm always finding great and strange examples of ancient art with no ID, but when descriptions do appear they're often inaccurate. They call war gods in Pompeiian wall painting "Ares", that kind of thing.) Cynwolfe (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Life interrupted my reply here. The vase-image is currently under "Titles and functions"... and well, even with the unfortunate lighting flare, it's gorgeous. On the article in general; I see:bloodofox: has tagged it for a rewrite. Maybe I wouldn't have gone quite that far - and I wouldn't have moved the etymology section back to pride of place - but maybe that's no big deal when the article's so very thin on practices. Sourcing's a problem in mystery religions, of course. Haploidavey (talk) 10:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

You're not allowed to have one of those, Davey. Life, that is. Here's the image of Demeter I would advocate for, given the strangely limited resources at Commons. She's characteristically seated, with characteristic headdress, and although it refers to a specific myth and also shows Metaneira, look at what M. is holding and compare the wall painting used at mola salsa: the triune wheat's an image of great longevity. And I'm enthralled by Demeter's benediction gesture. Kneeling was a part of the mysteries, I seem to recall, so M.'s posture is also informative. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:45, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Where did that come from? Seems bang to rights on the aforesaid three counts, yer honour. And ever so culty. Let's try it. Haploidavey (talk) 21:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Well-done Cynwolfe. It's very nice and I like it much better than others I've seen. Perfect with Metaneira holding the sheaf of wheat. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:55, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and make the change then. Thanks. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:31, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Hm. Slight delay. I had hoped to find a source that describes the elements here, but so far no luck online. I used Kevin Clinton's book for Pluto (mythology)#In Eleusinian scenes and remember reading about this vase, but Google Books offers it only in snippets, and not preview. I'll see whether I have notes. If not, I'll just settle for a less-informative caption. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:36, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Nice work. And the image looks very good. Even better than I thought it would. Those two little fingers are very intriguing. Nothing to do with anyone else's two fingers, of course. Haploidavey (talk) 13:12, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

See also Sabazios, hand of. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

No Corn in Ancient Greece

The section entitled Demeter and Persephone includes reference to the goddess Kore as the "Greek Corn-Maiden" and the storage of corn in underground silos. This is impossible. From the Wiki article on maize (or corn), ..."corn, is a grain domesticated by indigenous peoples in Mesoamerica in prehistoric times". Corn was imported to Europe after the colonization of the Americas. To the best of my knowledge this is correct. Therefore corn or maize could not have been part of the Greek diet, or any Eastern Hemisphere diet before 1492.

It is not clear what information sources were used by the author of this article, and how it was determined that Kore is the Greek Corn Maiden, and certainly the similarities of Kore and corn are tempting, but historically the connection is impossible. The Wiki article on Kore makes no reference to corn, and I believe this is correct.

So, I don't know what grain the Greeks were storing in the underground silos, but assuredly it was not corn. Nor was it potatoes or tobacco, which were also domesticated by Natives of the Western Hemisphere and exported to the Eastern Hemisphere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dianasbow (talk • contribs) 19:39, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The term "Corm Maiden" or "corn spirit" is synonymous to vegetation deity. Suggested by mythographers of the 19th and 20th centuries as a technical term. And as our article on vegetation deity states on this synonym: " " "corn" in this sense meaning grain in general". --Dimadick (talk) 05:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Question

Why are the words "WOOP WOOP" in the "Myths and Legends" section? I know that it might be vandalism but I tried to edit it and take the words out but the words didn't show up so I canceled my edits and all and yet, the words are STILL there! I don't really know how to take them out so...um, can anyone tell me how that's possible and all? Just wondering. 24.155.192.88 (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The page needed to be purged, for some reason, in order to show it's latest, post-vandal version. If ever you run into that sort of situation again, you can just past ?action=purge to the end of the URL and press enter to request that the server rebuild the page.  davidiad { t } 15:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. :) 24.155.192.88 (talk) 22:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)