Talk:Cold fusion

This article was the subject of mediation during 2009 at User_talk:Cryptic C62/Cold fusion.

Huizenga's reasoning to Nernst equation missinterpretation

One of the critics (J Huizenga) of cold fusion said something about F&P missinterpreting Nernst equation. Some details should added concerning the kind of missinterpretation involved according to Huizenga's view.--5.15.200.238 (talk) 18:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

That's from Huizenga 1993, pp. 33, 47. From page 33. "Based on his interpretation of the Nernst equation (taught in college freshman chemistry courses), Pons concluded that the deuterium pressure in the palladium cathode was equivalent to a hydrostatic pressure of approximately 10²⁷ atmospheres! It seems that it was this incorrect conclusion which led Fleischmann and Pons to believe that, in a palladium cathode, the deuterium nuclei would be forced together close enough to fuse. The Nernst equation, applicable under equilibrium conditions, was used to relate the overpotential in an electrochemical cell to deuterium fugacity. If this simple, but erroneous procedure is followed, a large overpotential does give a high deuterium fugacity. The use of the Nernst equation, however, for the overall deuterium evaporation reaction under conditions of large values of the overpotential for estimation of the pressure of deuterium in the palladium is inappropriate [J. Y. Huot, J. Electroche. Soc 136 631 (1989)] The actual hydrostatic pressure of deuterium in the palladium is many orders of magnitude less than estimated by this faulty procedure."

Another book cites this paragraph from Huizenga, and adds: "'The general message is clear: in using our pre-equilibrium arguments to establish Eq. (2.43), we must ensure that the pre-equilibrium is actually operative if the equation is to be meaningful. If large currents are being drawn, this may not be the case. Accordingly, the reader might note the need for caution in applying the analysis derived in Section 2.8. He/she might also wish to review he discussion of the Nernst equation in Chapter 1 of this book."

There was a comentary in a German journal[1] (search "Nernst")

Ebert K; Nachr. Chem. Tech. Lab. 37 (1989) 470 (in German).

"Elektrochemisch induzierte Fusion von Deuterium" (Electrochemically induced

fusion of deuterium).

** Early comment, reporting on the initial F&P press conference and the paper

in JEC. The article is not very critical, raising only a slight doubt as to

the applicability of the Nernst equation to an overvoltage (the famous 0.8eV).

I don't know how to summarize this in the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I've now looked up the paper by Huot that Huizenga cites, and there seems to be a big gap between what he says and any assertion in the paper itself. If Huizenga thought there was some implication from the paper such as he asserts, he didn't go to any trouble to spell out his reasoning.

The conclusion from all this would appear to be that Huizenga's assertion is overblown, and I suggest that instead of trying to summarise what people think about it as EN suggests that assertion simply be deleted from the article as having insufficient support.--Brian Josephson (talk) 16:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

It could be deleted or at least rephrased with according to Huizenga, a critic of cold fusion. I have added the sentence (The equation has been involved in the scientific controversy of denying the reality of cold fusion phenomena) to the article of the equation.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 14:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Currently, the article is so biased against the possibility that CF might be real that addressing a single issue (viz. whether Huizenga's criticism would in fact stand up if one looked properly into the details) seems hardly worth the trouble. This article should really be re-written from the start, with a view to including the totality of the evidence on both sides. --Brian Josephson (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

"Currently, the article is so biased against the possibility that CF might be real" because the reliable sources overwhelmingly say it is not real. As has been mentioned, we summarise what the reliable sources say. We are not aiming to balance minority views with the mainstream. Fringe theories are put into perspective with the mainstream. I won't link the policies and guidelines as you have already admitted you have no intention of familiarising yourself with them, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:37, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

It seems that there is an unsettled issue from the hastily archived sections about who asseses the reliability of the sources. Which are those reliable and those unreliable and who decides that and the related issue of mainstream vs fringe. In this case it is extremely important who makes this assertions.5.15.195.190 (talk) 15:15, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

text from user talk Brian Josephson about the mainstream vs fringe

Perhaps the situation could be summarised by saying it is pretty well mainstream by now but most scientists go round wearing blinkers and haven't noticed. Of course the fact that people still go on referring to it as if it is all an error has something to do with it. --Brian Josephson (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.15.195.190 (talk)

It would be interesting to know just what article of the Wikicreed legitimises the extent of bias that is apparent in this article. --Brian Josephson (talk) 14:06, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The relevant section on minority views is at Wikipedia:Undue_weight#Due_and_undue_weight. - MrOllie (talk) 15:01, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference. Yes indeed; it is very easy of course to interpret wikicreed in a biased way (metabias one might call this). This is an important point and I will start a separate section for it.--Brian Josephson (talk) 15:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

For fringe views specifically: WP:FRINGE, IRWolfie- (talk) 16:24, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Use of the equation to deny the hypothesized fusion of the deuterons

Huizenga seems to have used the mentioned equation to say that the fusion of the deuterons due to the lattice efect in metal hydrogen systems is improbable due to enormous pressure calculated by F&P.--5.15.178.93 (talk) 21:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The equation cannot be used to deny the fusion of the deuterons.--5.15.50.78 (talk) 21:53, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Reliability of journals articles

What journals that publish articles in the field are reliable and what are not?--5.15.176.81 (talk) 15:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, reliability of sources depends on context. You can't affirm that a given source will always be reliable in all contexts for all purposes.

We have a noticeboard for discussing the reliability of sources. The usual reply to this type of question is: "This is too general. Propose a specific source to support a specific content in a specific article, and then we can discuss it." --Enric Naval (talk) 11:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

There seem to be echoes of Humpty Dumpty here: When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less. And again, The question is, which is to be master—that's all. Perhaps I'm being naive, but that's how it looks to me at least since some of the RS judgements deviate from what I'd consider to be reasonable. But then I'm only a scientist and I gather that doesn't count.--Brian Josephson (talk) 18:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

For instance some articles from the journals mentioned in the section Publications like International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, Naturwissenschaften, European Physical Journal, etc. Some of this journals articles should be analyzed and cited in text.--5.15.192.70 (talk) 20:23, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Favorable

I found the following articles that gave a favorable opinion of cold fusion:

• [2] “What If Cold Fusion Is Real?” Wired magazine.

• [3] “Finally! Independent Testing Of Rossi's E-Cat Cold Fusion Device: Maybe The World Will Change After All”.

• [4] “Cornell University Library: Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device”. 7 Jun 2013.

• [5] “Cold fusion reactor independently verified, has 10,000 times the energy density of gas”

• [6] “Falls Church News-Press: The Peak Oil Crisis: Update on ‘Cold Fusion’”

What makes these articles somewhat credible is that they are from sources not specializing in unorthodox ideas like CF, so a major source of bias is removed. (It is not clear if any of these sources openly say that CF has been “proven” to work; I would have to check.) Should these sources be cited? If so, how would they be integrated into the article? The Wired article is a little questionable because the name Wired sounds cheesy; also, it is a hippie magazine, so it may have the bias of being oriented toward unorthodox ideas. The other sources seem more serious.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 05:28, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the Wired article is the best of the bunch, and it's speculative. We cannot use arXiv as a source, even if the article were good. There seems little evidence that ExtremeTech is intended to be credible. Forbes would be the best if we could verify that it was subject to editorial review, even though the scientists clearly are not independent of Rossi; columnists are generally permitted to write whatever they want if not libelous. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:46, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Reproducibility (again)

This edit cites this paper:

• Bodyagin, N.V.; et al. "Structural and Behavioural Irreproducibility of Solid Materals". Russian microelectronics. Springer. Retrieved 2 October 2013. {{cite web}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |last= (help)

I can't access the text. But I can see the list of references, and they are all unrelated to cold fusion? Does this paper even mention cold fusion in its text? Can we have a quote of the relevant sentence(s)? --Enric Naval (talk) 14:50, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The words and phrases "Cold fusion", "fusion", "nuclear energy", "nuclear reaction", "nuclear", and "energy" do not appear anywhere in the text of the paper. The emphasis is on the manufacturing of microelectronic devices (the stuff often colloquially referred to as 'silicon chips'), not on (putative) macroscopic fusion reactors. Leaving aside potential WP:WEIGHT issues, the way the paper is used in that edit is clearly a bit of WP:SYNTH intended to bolster a somewhat dodgy implied syllogism (which could be paraphrased as "Variations in microscopic processes can cause some electronic devices to fail to perform as expected; cold fusion devices fail to perform as expected, therefore variations in microscopic processes are responsible.") TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:54, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

ToaT disingenuously avoids quoting actual text from the article, such as this:

"In the context of materials technology, reproducibility is usually defined as the accuracy to which a value that characterizes the material can be repeated in successive runs if all the process variables are kept constant to a maximum possible accuracy."

The fact that no specific reference to CF etc. is made in the article is a red herring, the issue at hand being the fact that irreproducibility is a generic property of materials (which distinguishes claimed cold fusion from thermonuclear fusion, which occurs in a plasma). --Brian Josephson (talk) 11:09, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The issue at hand is the lack of any reference to cold fusion, processes that resemble nuclear fusion, electrolytic cells, special properties of palladium, etc. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

That is true, but irrelevant. Perhaps you cannot see the rather obvious connection between the italicised extract and the CF article, but your own failure to do so in no way proves that this is the case. And connections that are obvious to any reasonably competent person cannot legitimately be characterised as original research, even if people would very much like to do this in order to have an excuse to revert. --Brian Josephson (talk) 09:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

There are some obvious connections that Wikipedia can make without a source, but I can't see this as one of them. If there were a Wikipedia article on microscopic irreproducibility, then the Russian microelectronics article might be a good source for that article. However, that article has been deleted twice as not being notable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

An example of microscopic irreproducibility is the previous mention of an individual nuclear fission event. It had to be reminded in case some editors here have forgotten. There is no reason that individual fusion events should not be irreproducibile since this is the case for fission. Failure to see the connection could mean either tendentious/biased attitude or the lack of understanding required to asses the suitability of the quote. (I have to repeat myself concerning the lack of understanding.)--5.15.176.133 (talk) 23:23, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

(re comment by Rubin above) Someone once famously said 'he would say that, wouldn't he?' -- very relevant and how predictable! Sorry to be so cynical about this, but that's about all one can do when people bring up this sort of argument which wouldn't convince any knowledgeable person. By the way, someone has sent me a link to a very interesting analysis of w'pedia editing re this kind of topic, but as this isn't supposed to be a forum I won't go into details here. --Brian Josephson (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

To rephrase my comment: It's clear (to any knowledgeable person) that it (anything related to the alleged contents of the Russian article) cannot be added under the current Wikipedia policies. Whether the policies should be changed is another matter, which should not be discussed here. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:52, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Really? What policies support the assertion alleged contents of the Russian article) cannot be added under the current Wikipedia policies.?--5.15.176.133 (talk) 23:07, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

No Original Research. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? In what way do you think that policy applies here? What are specific aspects that would allow the conclusion that using this source is OR? Whithout the specific aspects your answer is evasive and not convincing.--5.15.207.101 (talk) 12:47, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

In Wikipedia:No original research you can find, for example: "(...) and summarize what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly". I am sure you can find more sentences that would apply here. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:21, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Makes the statement explicitly? What is that supposed to mean? That if a w'pedia article contains a sentence X then some RS must contain the exact same sentence? --Brian Josephson (talk) 14:46, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

And furthermore my b*ll***t detector is flashing, telling me it has picked up a truly shocking case of what they call 'economy with the truth'. The article quoted states in full: Best practice is to research the most reliable sources on the topic and summarize what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly. Omitting mention of the words in boldface above appears to be an attempt to hoodwink readers into thinking that what is merely recommended as 'best practice' is compulsory. Retraction would appear to be in order. --Brian Josephson (talk) 16:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

You're correct, that approach is not required for all statements. However, if you read on, you will see that the policy says 'Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by a reliable source.' This statement has been challenged - and on an article such as Cold fusion with a contentious history, it is best to assume that every statement you put into the article will be challenged. - MrOllie (talk) 16:25, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right, every statement will be challenged. Whether such challenges are reasonable or not is another matter, as the above 'economy with the truth' very well demonstrates. You may have noticed that I have not added anything to the article for some time, as I know from experience that would be a waste of my professional skills, which can be better applied elsewhere. --Brian Josephson (talk) 16:30, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

By and large, the policies make good sense. It is only the way they are applied by some editors that creates the (widely recognised) problem.--Brian Josephson (talk) 08:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The source just straight up doesn't mention cold fusion. There is absolutely nothing surprising about it being removed. It seems what you don't like is that we are following the no original research policy and you are doing it to try and rebut a source. Clearly using OR to rebut a source is never going to be acceptable, IRWolfie- (talk) 21:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I've already pointed out the irrelevance of your first sentence. Please look at what I said! --Brian Josephson (talk) 21:07, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

In the context of the reproducibility it is interesting to notice another domain with problems in this regard, but not so controversial, the field of bioelectromagnetic studies. This has had many failures to replicate the results as pointed out by the book Biological effects of electric and magnetic fields (vol I) edited by David O. C(arpenter?), Academic Press, 1994.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 10:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

In fact, the problem seems to be a very general one -- I've been reading that a sizeable fraction of all published papers are wrong. --Brian Josephson (talk) 10:14, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems that the ireproducibility of materials is a feature of complex systems through chaotic behaviour (as stated at least by Kozima).--5.15.53.183 (talk) 18:25, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Impurities favorable and unfavorable to reproducibility

In Pd systems it is claimed by McKubre etal that Al and Si on the surface of Pd enhances reproducibility.--5.15.0.43 (talk) 11:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Some metals can lower the reproducibility, like Zn or Cu.--5.15.50.78 (talk) 21:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Content suggestions that don't provide any source

Alternating current electrolytic experiments

I suggest inclusion in the article of the answer to next question (rephrased comment): Are there some experiments performed with alternating current in electrolytic enviroments?--5.15.207.101 (talk) 12:53, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Please note that this is an article talk page and not a general page for discussion (see WP:NOTFORUM), IRWolfie- (talk) 21:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

This aspect is self-evident. You need not repeat this statement as a buzzword. I brought this up in order for some experiments reports of this type to be included in article , if there are some.--5.15.195.97 (talk) 21:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to rephrase your initial comment so as to make its relevance more obvious to people. --Brian Josephson (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed a rephrase is appropriate (to underly that this not forum) to contrast with direct current electrolytic environment experiment (F&P). Perhaps a suggestion of rephrase would be helpful.--5.15.196.40 (talk) 21:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you study a source such as the Library at lenr.org and then come up with specific suggestions as to what might be included in the article. --Brian Josephson (talk) 21:34, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Excellent content-based suggestion. I have browsed the mentioned repository an I have noticed some works with content related to some aspects I was considering to raise for discussion of inclusion.--5.15.202.119 (talk) 12:12, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

lenr.org is not a reliable source and the papers it includes are generally fringe views and minority positions (WP:UNDUE), IRWolfie- (talk) 07:38, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

lenr.org is a repository of articles (many of them) which have been published in reliable journals. As for the fringe labelling, it is just a pure subjective assertion of some wikieditors who insist on their biased POV despite the evidence to contrary.--5.15.208.179 (talk) 09:39, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

No source is inherently reliable (some are fairly close, like Nature and Science). Also bear in mind that WP:DUE weight applies, particularly with regard to WP:FRINGE positions. Minority views, even when published in peer reviewed journals, should not be confused or misrepresented as the mainstream position. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

A pretty confused response! You don't ask of a library of physical books whether it is a reliable source or not; it is a collection of sources (books) some of which are reliable and others not. Likewise some of the items in the lenr.org library are published in reputable journals with good refereeing procedures and can thus be considered reliable. It is a nonsense asking how reliable the library as such is. --Brian Josephson (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The topic of this subsection is the inclusion in the article of the answer to the question if there are any reported experiments in which the cold fusion phenomena occurs in systems containing only heavy water subjected to an alternating electric field through electrodes, considering that the Reported results section in the article begins with the enumeration of the constituents and conditions for experiments: metal/electrodes, deuterium/heavy water, type of system (gas contact, electroytic, etc) and excitation (fields, acustic waves etc)--5.15.177.181 (talk) 20:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems that the work of Bockris and Sundaresan reports results of such kind with carbon electrodes in simple water.--5.15.53.183 (talk) 18:17, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Biased views - Gary Taubes

Clearly Taubes book has a biased attitude focused on the emotions of scientists he interviewed rather than on scientific aspects. Thus the reliability of this source should be reassesed.

It seems that Taubes and Huizenga are the pillars of the biased attitude on cold fusion present in the article--5.15.198.54 (talk) 20:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Taubes accused Bockris of contaminating electrolysis cells with tritium, allegation disproved.--5.15.0.43 (talk) 11:19, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Appeal to the scientific method

Robert Duncan

Robert Duncan should be quoted in the article about the need to apply the scientific method to cold fusion. Or perhaps someone from the editors on this page would want to cast doubt on his reliability?--5.15.197.212 (talk) 21:06, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion, but I'm sure no bookmaker will give you good odds concerning how the editors on this page will respond. --Brian Josephson (talk) 21:13, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Browsing the archives of this talk page (for example Archive 41) one can find a sample of totally inappropriate attitude/response of some editors on this page illustrated by a small quote about Robert Duncan by user Greg L : --5.15.202.138 (talk) 07:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

You asked me if I know who Robert Duncan©™® is (honestly, a mental image of a dog with its tail wagging came to mind with that). I am exceedingly pleased to respond, “F--k no, and proud of it.” So I just now googled his name and stopped at the first site that wasn’t Wikipedia (*queue “eye rolling” clip from B‑roll*) or (literally) Cold Fusion Now-dot-com, and looked at this blog about the fellow, where there were individuals who seemed to be less-than-impressed with His Highness Of Cold Fusion. As for what “LENR” means, it’s just one of the many—as Sarah Palin might say—*sciency*-sounding pseudonyms to avoid saying “cold fusion”; an effort to put lipstick on a pig and pass it off as a prom date.

Their (expected biased) reaction should not be taken seriously, if it contains fallacies.--5.15.195.97 (talk) 21:20, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

And is the kind of language used in the above consistent with WP best practice? If it is, it should not be. --Brian Josephson (talk) 12:27, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Collapse per WP:NOTFORUM - no edit proposed. This is not the place for a discussion about editors, or a forum for general discussion about cold fusion.

subsection with another quote hastily removed by IRWolfie.--5.15.198.117 (talk) 08:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Not sure where that is from in the archive, but be aware of the fallacy fallacy. If you want to make a suggestion, then make it, but don't use it as an opportunity to attack random editors. I reverted one of your additions which amounted to a pointless personal attack on an individual. Picking quotes and declaring them ignorant without further reasoning is also incredibly authoritarian (I assume Brian will speak out against attacks on scientists based on authority, right?) and also fallacious. Digging up past utterly unrelated comments also adds nothing to the current discussion. IRWolfie- (talk) 07:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC) The quote has not the intention to attack some individual user but to underline some reasoning unawareness from some editors who make hazardous assertions here concerning the reliability of some sources they do not like, among other aspects.--5.15.198.117 (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC) You have shown no such thing. Please focus on making your own arguments for inclusion of specific content rather than creating straw men from the archives, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC) What a hasty reaction from a user! I was about to give details about the relevance of the second quote when a user hastily intervened and caused an edit conflict. So I will restore the second quote with details.--5.15.194.94 (talk) 07:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC) You have provided no relevance at all. We aren't here to discuss your beliefs or anyone beliefs about the scientific method. They are irrelevant to this article. We do not base our articles on original research, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Really? No relevance at all? You have not pointed out any argument supporting this assertion. It is not about belief in the collapsed content, it is about noticing a modus operandi of some editors who, by lacking deep understanding of the scientific method pointed out by their edits, have a pattern of editing in this talk page of disregarding anything that opposes their views about the topic of cold fusion and the sources which support it by misconceived appeal to wikipolicies of NOR and UNDUE using them as buzzwords ad nauseam. Such editors are not able to asses the reliability of sources and to appreciate what is OR and what is not OR. Using the collapsable box is also a sign of disrespect to counterarguments which they do not like.--5.15.206.0 (talk) 14:00, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The subtleties of the scientific method

I have found quotes in the archive of this page which indicate that some wikieditors are not very aware of the subtleties of the scientific method. The entire subsection has been hastily removed by another user who has interpreted the use of that quotes as a personal attack.

The removed quote contains assertions about the correctness of theories and the acceptance by scientists. These aspects are contrary to the scientific method because their insist to much on present models and assumptions on (thermo)nuclear fusion and the so-called scientific consensus and thus denying the validity of the cold fusion experiments due to contradiction to current models. Current models and assumptions have not an absolute status which would allow the categorical conclusion that cold fusion results are necessarily an error. The current models and assumptions are perfectible. Using them as premises to categorically deny the reality of cold fusion is a great reasoning error and thus a serious deviation from the scientific method.

I^ll restore the quotes later when I^ll find time.--5.15.195.89 (talk) 08:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Quote by Brian Josephson

The lecture Pathological Disbelief could be cited regarding the deviation from the scientific method in the case of cold fusion in comparison to other cases.--5.15.196.180 (talk) 21:21, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

For instance, in the case of the origin of meteorites there has been little scientific base to object to the non-terrestrial origin of meteorites as pointed out by Max von Laue in his History of Physics (Geschichte der Physik, 1958). Some newtonian disciples considered that meteorites could not have come from outer space because this was seen a disturbance of cosmic harmony.--5.15.198.26 (talk) 08:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe I've read somewhere of a different objection to non-terrestrial origin. As all planetary orbits are elliptical, it was thought meteorite orbits must also be elliptical, but an elliptical orbit would have hit the earth some time in the past. --Brian Josephson (talk) 09:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Although Max von Laue does not specify explicitly what kind of disturbance to cosmic order was involved, it seems this must be it, the cosmic order consisted in the assumption of the same type of orbits for both planets and meteorites (whether or not with the same eccentricities).--5.15.210.172 (talk) 12:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps this discussion should be continued elsewhere or the cabal will become restless ;-) I just wanted to make the point though that surely Newton at least was aware that hyperbolic orbits were equally in conformance with his laws? --Brian Josephson (talk) 12:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course the discussion could be continued elsewhere to prevent allegations of irrelevance. I was trying last night to post something similar on your talk page, but the content has at some moment suddenly disappeared. I′ve posted a rephrased version of the lost content here this morning.--5.15.197.78 (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The concept of cosmic harmony is an influence from Plato, as pointed out by John Desmond Bernal in his Science in History.--5.15.7.76 (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Incompatibilities with conventional fusion

What is the scientific base of the reasoning that cold fusion must have the exact mechanism as conventional fusion in free space, otherwise its existence is denied? (the answer should be specified in the article)--86.125.163.60 (talk) 21:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not that familiar with this subject, but I see the article on the subject has a section Limitations, and it looks from this that it may not be correct to apply the Nernst equation. The article states specifically:

In dilute solutions, the Nernst equation can be expressed directly in terms of concentrations (since activity coefficients are close to unity). But at higher concentrations, the true activities of the ions must be used. This complicates the use of the Nernst equation, since estimation of non-ideal activities of ions generally requires experimental measurements. The Nernst equation also only applies when there is no net current flow through the electrode. The activity of ions at the electrode surface changes when there is current flow, and there are additional overpotential and resistive loss terms which contribute to the measured potential.

The situation I believe is that Fleischmann was aware that the naive application of the Nernst equation indicated that fusion should not occur at an appreciable rate, but in view of the uncertainties he thought it worth trying the experiment just to see if anything happened -- and the meltdown showed that it certainly did and he hastily checked for radioactivity and used smaller amounts of Pd in future experiments. The latter part is in Beaudette's book and there are no doubt lectures by Fleischmann somewhere that would confirm the rest of what I have said.

In any event, the article would be improved by including the fact that the Nernst equation becomes more complicated at high concentrations and if there is an electric current, as that will indicate that Huizenga might not have been right in his criticism. Ideally someone would look at his book and see what exactly he said. If I have time I'll ask the experts to check on this rather important point. --Brian Josephson (talk) 22:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I have noticed this page and the controversial aspects (especially those concerning Nernst equation) presented here. It seems there have been many omissions of important aspects in the history of this topic. Nernst equation is one of them. It has stated by its author originally appealing only to concentrations (thus considering tacitly ideal solutions) and at zero net current (thermodynamic equilibrium of electric and osmotic force).

Its original formulation appealed to a doubtful concept - the dissolution tension of metals - which had implausibly high values and has been dropped being replaced with the notion of activity due to non-ideal solutions (ionic solutions being non-ideal from start). The nature of ionic solutions has been pointed out firstly by Arhenius and then by Max Born with his simplified version of the heat of solution of solid salts, thus underlying the presence of mobile ions.-

The relevance of the equation to the present topic seems to be in whether or not some factors could trigger the fusion of deuterons in solid lattice of transition metal hydrides, perhaps differently from the mechanisms in conventional fusion.-- 188.27.144.144(talk) 12:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Shortcomings of the DOE report conclusions

As some editors complained about the lack of a specific edit proposal, I suggest that the shortcomings of the DOE report should specified in the article (of course using sources in order that some editor not say that could be OR).--5.15.209.114 (talk) 08:20, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

As you can see, there are 186 footnote references and a lengthy bibliography for this article. If you want to argue for a change, you'll need to provide sources to back up your claims.Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of the DoE report, its 2004 report included the following text (page 4):

Evaluations by the reviewers ranged from: 1) evidence for excess power is compelling, to 2) there is no convincing evidence that excess power is produced when integrated over the life of an experiment. The reviewers were split approximately evenly on this topic. Those reviewers who accepted the production of excess power typically suggest that the effect seen often, and under some understood conditions, is compelling.

In conformity with requests by some editors, I should like to ask, before including it in the article, whether there is a legitimate reason why this quote should not be included? --Brian Josephson (talk) 11:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Because the article already discusses the 2004 DOE review. We should be careful to avoid giving it too much weight. Olorinish (talk) 22:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your logic, I'm afraid. It would be different if that short quote was similar to something already there, but that isn't the case -- in fact what little reference there is to the 2004 review is a little misleading (see below). And one might characterise my suggestion by saying that the sentences quoted fill a gap in what is there at present.

If you think too much is there re DoE reviews, the answer would seem to be to remove some of the material regarding the 1989 review, which was less searching than the 2004 review and therefore deserving of less weight. And it isn't exactly right to say 'reviewers found that cold fusion evidence was still not convincing 15 years later'; rather it was some reviewers (roughly a half) that was not convinced by the excess heat measurement. Would you like me to try and improve the article in that respect? --Brian Josephson (talk) 22:44, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Keep in mind that this is an article about cold fusion, not excess heat. Olorinish (talk) 14:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The subject of cold fusion is intimately bound up with experimental evidence that it is occurring, and heat in excess of what can be explained in conventional terms is one of the main lines of evidence. In addition excess heat is one reason for the subject being of general interest, since if it can be produced on the scale claimed by Rossi and Defkalion it would have important practical implications in regard to energy production. Therefore there is an intimate connection between the two.

However, searching suggests that quite often in WP the means of detection of something such as 'nuclear reactions' do not appear in the main article on the subject, which perhaps suggests a separate article describing the methods of testing the cold fusion claims, including measurement of excess heat. However, if there were such an article people would probably be immediately suggesting its removal, and so I would favour this aspect being included in the main article, perhaps with a more logical organisation than at present. --Brian Josephson (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It is stated in the article that DOE considers the theoretical proposals to be the weakest part of CF reports. What is the scientific base of such assertions about theoretical models? The answer is important to be specified in the article.--5.15.62.129 (talk) 11:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Collapsable text box - abusive use

It is becoming a habit for some editors on this page to abusively use the collapsable textbox under various pretexts when they lack other meaningful replies. The most recent example is from the section above which adress the situation of some users who lack the understanding needed to make good suggestion for improving the actual content of the article. The abusive and thus annoying use of the collapsable textbox will be removed.--5.15.179.182 (talk) 07:57, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It's appropriate to use when it's completely off topic and disrupting the page. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.15.192.114 (talk)

Of course it would be justified in cases that are really as you say but here it is not the case, your labeling as off-topic and disrupting the page has little base and is just the opinion of some editor lacking convincing other reply to the pointed facts/deficiencies.--5.15.213.209 (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Yep. This sure looks like censorship to me, and I think it would be wise for editors not to act in ways that may give rise to a suspicion that censorship in some form is involved in their actions. The problem is augmented by the fact that a certain degree of expertise is sometimes needed to judge whether something is irrelevant in the context or not, and editors do not always have the expertise that is required. --Brian Josephson (talk) 21:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the expertise of some editors who complain of supposedly irrelevant archives search and attack when it comes to their shown (lack of) expertise pointed out by previous comments, there is some wikirule which underlies the necessity of some expertise in fields where is needed and the lack of it would a problem. This wikirule is WP:Competence#Lack of technical expertise.--5.15.193.118 (talk) 21:47, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Use of archives′ content

From the previous section the appeal to content of the archives in present discussions comes into questioning by some editors. It is a rather general issue which could apply to any talk page, not just this one. What other users think about this use of the archives, when it is appropriate and when not to use archived content in present discussions?--5.15.178.192 (talk) 08:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Only when it's relevant for making specific changes to the article (when a specific source was discussed in the past, when the merits of including a specific fact were discussed, etc).

Sometimes it's used for discussing the behaviour of a specific editor. But a talk page is not the place for this type of discussion. If there is some merit to the discussion, it gets bumped to a specialized noticeboard. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Neutron involvement in triggering cold fusion

Another aspect which should be presented in article is the role of neutrons, as there are some claims that lacking background neutron cold fusion does not occur (experiments done with Kamiokande machine in an isolated cave at high depth).--5.15.206.146 (talk) 08:29, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you be more specific about what and who these claims are? Then they can be evaluated. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:51, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Claims for instance, by T. Ishida 1992 Study of the anomalous nuclear effects in solid-deuterium systems, Thesis, Tokio University in coperation with S.E.Jones.--5.15.21.236 (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

TNCF model

It would be useful to mention the Trapped neutron catalyzed fusion (by Kozima) in the subsection Proposed mechanisms.--5.15.205.255 (talk) 15:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

This model assumes the existence of stable trapped neutrons in some solids connected to triggering of cold fusion.--5.15.37.249 (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The source of initial neutrons is from the background neutrons.--5.15.50.78 (talk) 21:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Rewrite proposal

It has been suggested above (by user Brian Josephson) that a rewritten version of the entire article (with details on both sides) is needed, not just patching it in some places. Perhaps this rewriting could be done on an auxiliary page of this talk page like Talk:Cold fusion/Rewritten version.--5.15.177.58 (talk) 12:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

No, that rather sounds like it would end up as a POV fork. I think the real issue is that you and Brian don't like what the secondary sources say. It is also unnecessary, IRWolfie- (talk) 13:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I think some of us are capable of being sufficiently objective. But you and others would find reasons to dispute an objective article, and on account of that alone I'm rather inclined to consider user@5.15.177.58's suggestion not that useful. --Brian Josephson (talk) 13:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding secondary sources, those like Huizenga and Taubes are clearly given undue weight. Also finding unreasonable reasons to dispute an objective article is tendentious editing. Perhaps there are lesser to no objections to a user space rewrite/draft.--5.15.200.250 (talk) 13:49, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Reported helium generation - competing hypothesized mechanisms

How can different hypothesized mechanisms of helium generations be discerned on from another? Is the helium generated by the fusion of deuterons or by other reaction? Or both by deuteron fusion and other reaction(s)?--5.15.206.234 (talk) 16:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Err ... do bear in mind that 'This is not a forum for general discussion about cold fusion'. There's a time and a place for everything! But if you have a specific proposal for this article, do go ahead and make it. --Brian Josephson (talk) 17:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I consider that the statement about not forum can be tacitly assumed. The answer to the asked question about competing reactions, assuming its existence, should be specified in the article.--5.15.212.24 (talk) 19:49, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Baym & Legett 1989, and Ichimaru 1989 mention some theoretical objections to helium generation by deuteron fusion.--5.15.41.17 (talk) 20:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

It has been discussed whether helium is generated by fusion of deuterons or by reaction of Li-6 with neutron.--5.15.63.120 (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Excess heat as due to difference in conductivity of heavy water/water with lithium salts

There is a claim present in the article (by G Taubes) that requires clarification: the excess heat in FP experiments could be attributed to difference in conductivities of ionic solution of lithium salts in heavy water vs water, the heavy water solutions having much lower conductivity and thus producing a higher ohmic heating.--5.15.62.129 (talk) 10:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Taubes can be cited as according to Taubes....--5.15.50.78 (talk) 21:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Archiving the talk page

There no good reason to archive the talk page with time between archiving of 1 month for unreplied sections. The archiving settings could be changed.--5.15.41.17 (talk) 20:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Who has made the setting of archiving this page of 1 month since the last unreplied comment in sections?--5.15.63.120 (talk) 21:03, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Quality of experiments

Something should be inserted in article about the quality of experiments and experimental design in regards to reproducibility, like the following text:

After the announcement of the Cold Fusion by Fleischmann and Pons in 1989, there has been great debate between the deniers and the believers of the science of cold fusion phenomena. The debate continues to this day after two decades since the announcement. In other sciences, this situation is rare typically due to the fact that experiments are either reproducible or not. In this particular situation, the poor reproducibility of the experiment has been a major issue. As a result, the truth about whether or not cold fusion is even possible has been questioned. The purpose of this paper is to clarify why this unique situation occurred. We divide the process of experiment into four phases to analyze why "poor reproducibility" occurred. (1)Setting up the hypothesis, (2) Planning of experimental design, (3) Implementation of the experiment and (4) Verification of experiment. We would like to discuss what the problems have been in each phase.We interviewed the scholars in the field of Cold Fusion and found that the following problems have occurred in the four phases. (1) Hypotheses: There have been a number of hypotheses. Therefore, it has been difficult to get specific, measurable feed back. What one believes theoretical plays outs quite differently in experimental form (2) Experimental design: Each experiment may appear to have been carried out under the same conditions. However, variations appeared in the experimental results. It is possible that there were unknown conditions in metal, gas, and other components. Such unknown conditions might have not been considered in the experimental design. (3) Implementation of the experiment: Preventing the dispersion of the gas such as nano-structure of the metal as well as the gas such as hydrogen is very difficult. Hence, it has been difficult to control the experiment perfectly. (4) Verification of experiment: There has been some uncertainty about the various hypothesis and experimental conditions. It is difficult to write specifically about all the experimental conditions in the papers. Therefore, reproducing the experiments have been difficult for other researchers. In this study, we focused on the quality of the "implementation of experiment". In particular, we analyzed the prototype of the venture companies outside of Japan. We looked at the photos and the data of the prototype. We also analyzed the structure of the prototype, material, gas, and the method of heat measurement from the photos. We came to the conclusion that the results and outputs that the company claims are quite different from what they appear to be. Moreover, the data and the information which contained a lot of noise were announced without peer-reviews. In conclusion, "the lack of clear hypothesis", "difficulty in controlling the experimental conditions" and "uncertainty of information" led to the current controversy of Cold Fusion. It is important to solve these problems in order for the society of Cold Fusion to be in the main stream of the scientific society.

by E. Igari, T. Mizuno--5.15.41.17 (talk) 21:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I believe the current scientific consensus is that many of the experiments, specifically a subset of the negative ones that conclude no cold fusion exists, are quite robustly reproducible under controlled conditions. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 22:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I believe it is equally the case that many experiments require a lot of expertise to reproduce the effects under investigation, which means it is strikingly easy (though uninformative scientifically) to reproduce a null result! --Brian Josephson (talk) 22:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

You may be right for what little I care; I was speaking merely to what the scientific consensus appears to be. As always, the scientific consensus may be wrong, but it's not Wikipedia's place to attempt to overturn it. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 23:10, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The scientific consensus may be wrong or even lacking, especially in the case of CF. From the above probabilistic approach follows necessarily: the probability of reproducing a result and the probability of the complementary event, namely of not reproducing the result(s) must be considered.--5.15.191.89 (talk) 06:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Other aspect concerns the factorial design approach to experiments, considering the rather loose connection between theories of CF and experimental results.--5.15.191.89 (talk) 06:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The influence of alloys electrodes can be tested.--5.15.50.78 (talk) 21:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Types of models

Several types of models, considering or avoiding the potential barrier to fusion of deuterons are reviewed by Chechin&Tsarev Int. J. Theor Phys. (1993)--5.15.41.228 (talk) 21:37, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The models which avoid the barrier resort to hypotheses concerning forces that could facilitate the fusion of deuterons thus making the barrier concept unnecessary.--5.15.63.120 (talk) 21:17, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Connection with bubble fusion and sonoluminescense

It should be specified what are the connections between the two types of fusion.--5.15.41.228 (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

They have their own articles and are mentioned in the parent article of Nuclear Fusion. They were mentioned in passing in an older version of this article, but as their hypothesized mechanism involves localized pockets of very high energy (temperatures) it was argued that they were not part of this topic and the mention was removed. Personally, I rather liked the old section describing other things that are sometimes incorrectly called cold fusion, but I would have to concede that this article is already quite long. I do see that someone has added an 'in popular culture' section again this time as 'cultural references'- such a section seems to get recreated and then redeleted every few years here.--Noren (talk) 01:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Hopefully, the "popular culture" section will survive if we only allow mention with high-quality sources. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The Navy SPAWAR researchers are in a 1 hour and 3 minute video on YouTube claiming that the reaction is highly repeatable, makes gamma rays, neutrons, and transmutes metals into other metals, and creates Tritium. The talk was filmed at the U of Missouri. NASA has 2 videos on YouTube, both saying the reaction is a real thing, that it creates heat, that NASA is contracting for a space plane built around the Nickel-Hydrogen LENR reactor ,, that the Windom Larsen theory fits most of the observed phenomena in the reaction. I question the glaring omissions of these items from this Wiki. NASA slideshows on presentations that NASA Langley made at other NASA facilities are also on YouTube, they discuss the space plane, and aircraft with "unlimited hover". Why do we seriously consider that Navy Space and Naval Warfare Systems (Pacific), and Langley, don't know a nuclear reaction when they see one? We shouldn't be bitter, but re-consider. 98.30.129.141 (talk) 04:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Search for relevant videos on → Youtube.com. — Loadmaster (talk) 01:00, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

As the last three NASA-related papers that I checked stated essentially that "cold fusion would be extremely useful if it worked, so more research is recommended." Although quoted by editors as saying that it worked, they did not. Hence, if you can provide a specific NASA paper which actually said that it works, I might consider it worthy of addition. As it stands, .... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Biased language

The article now partly shows language that goes beyond neutral and encyclopedic attitude. Exmaple:

Many years after the 1989 experiment, cold fusion researchers still haven't agreed on a single theoretical explanation or on a single experimental method that can produce replicable results and continue to offer new proposals, which also fail to convince mainstream scientists.

Why should all researches agree on any one explanation? Are they all working together or following the same (hidden) agenda? How does a scientist achieve the classification of being "mainstream"? The whole field continues to be worked on, for whatever motives, multiple they may be, and it is WPs job to document that work, not to take side, or even support that decision to be made by the reader, for one or another side. --Bernd.Brincken (talk) 13:57, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed the excerpt must be rephrased. The demand of only one explanation is somewhat Procustesean and not very well-founded given, for example, the complexity of the phenomena and the possible generation of helium by deuteron fusion but also by other reactions .--5.15.53.120 (talk) 15:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)