Talk:Easter

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2014

I find:

"The date of Easter therefore varies between 22 March and 25 April."

Please add "inclusive" at the end of that sentence, because Easter can fall on March 22 and on April 25. (It was March 22 in 1818 but that won't happen again until 2285. It was April 25 in 1943 and will be on that day again in 2038. Check list of Easter dates.)

128.63.16.20 (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Question: How about: "The date of Easter can be on any date from 22 March until 25 April."? — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 20:47, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

 Done - the phrase in the Date section was already "between 22 March and 25 April inclusive", which initially confused me - it is just the lead that needed altering and it seems sensible to use the same phraseology. Arjayay (talk) 14:25, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Christian dogmatics - vs. a full scholarly review of other-cultural roots of Easter: Eostre, Ishtar, Eos/Dawn, Vernal Equinox

As a Culture Studies PhD with some particular interests in this area, I am offended greatly by this article. Which seems clearly written by a religious dogmatist.

This article clearly to be sure announces its aim: this is an account it tells us, of the "Christian" celebration. But clearly it has left out dozens of other-cultural predecessors, the larger anthropological/mythic context, and them dozens of historical traditions that lead up to this holiday.

This is NOT a scholarly article; it is an exercise in church dogmatics, that asserts no other origin for this typical spring celebration than God, or Jahweh.

We need a few ANE historians and cultural anthropologists, to fill this account out. By looking at results from many other cultures in this area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.111.98.158 (talk) 13:59, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Seriously. This article is the biggest load of bull I've seen here, and I remember the Ellen White wars. Good luck. These dogmatists will give you hell before they give you neutral tone. --75.185.43.139 (talk) 23:22, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

La-dee-da. If you're such an awe-inspiring scholar, FIX IT and cite things with appropriate sources. Wikipedia is designed to permit this instead of only allowing empty, pointless whining.Dogface (talk) 20:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

So make an article about it's predecessors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.1.124.211 (talk) 00:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The point being made is sound - SOMEONE with the appropriate knowledge and time needs to rewrite this pretty awful and biased article. Me, I'm just here because it's Easter.. ;-) The most blatant clue to the bias is in the first sentence: "Easter"... "is a festival and holiday commemorating the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead", when clearly the very word "Easter" refers to a pre-Christian festival (as explained under etymology), and most of the things that most people in the English speaking world associate with Easter (eggs, bunnies etc), have far more to do with a fertility festival than they do with the Christian one.Spiridens (talk) 11:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Made some changes yesterday that were immediately reverted by a Christian loony. This is the problem with wikipedia - it will always have an undeclared agenda set by 1) well-organised special interest groups (such as religions) 2) the dominant cultural assumptions of the west, particularly the United States where most users are based. I give up on it, it's a joke. Perhaps someone else has time to fight the god squad here and create a decent non-biased article about Easter. I have better things to do.Spiridens (talk) 08:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, some of the Christians here don't behave in a very Christian way. I'm not sure what they feel their mission is. Lying for Jesus? Have a look at Systemic bias, and see if that helps lead you (and Wikipedia) on a healing path. HiLo48 (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Ronald Hutton & Hans Hillerbrand

Hello folks. There's been an exchange between myself and another user on the article space regarding citing Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun and Hans Hillerbrand's Encyclopedia Brittanica article as minority views against the generally accepted etymology. The problem is primarily this; neither Hutton nor Hillerbrand have the historical linguistics background necessary make a call like this and should not be cited when discussing this etymology. The Encyclopedia Brittanica article is also problematic beyond this. Right now, "generally accepted" is wording that implies that there is some dissent, but that this is the majority view. Isn't that enough for a summary? :bloodofox: (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Unless you are saying this minority view doesn't exist, the objection is invalid. The material I restored was changed to specifically say it was a minority view, and to attribute it to the scholar who reported it. This is a comprehensive encyclopedia. If there's a better source for the view, suggest and add it, rather than simply deleting an attributed view. μηδείς (talk) 20:56, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:UNDUE. Here we're essentially giving a minority position equal footing to the majority. And these are scholars, sure, but they're not linguists, and this section is about an etymology. It's an inappropriate citation, especially the Brittania source. The section is a summary where we don't need to go into any real depth. All of this is handled far more extensively at Ēostre. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:32, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd be reluctant to dismiss Hutton's generally solid historical work, just because he isn't a specialist in etymology. Although I'm not convinced by his discussion of Easter, he does present a serious minority view which should be restored. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 13:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

The issue isn't that "he isn't a specialist in etymology", the issue is that he doesn't seem to have a historical linguistics background. He's therefore a poor source for historical linguistics, which is a major problem. Historical linguistics, as a field of linguistics, is not something that can be approached simply with a background in history. He's also generally a poor source regarding Germanic paganism, and certainly a poor source when it comes to Indo-European studies. Hutton is still mentioned here, but there's really no reason for it. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:58, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Having again looked over the cited section of Hutton's Stations of the Sun, it's exactly as I recall it being. We can do better than that. The section we have right now is well referenced to authorities on the topic. Hutton appeared at the time to be unaware of some key evidence on the matter, such as the matronae Austriahenea and important comparative stuff. I've gone ahead and removed it on these grounds.There's no reason to give equal footing to Hutton's overview. If people want more information, they can always go to Ēostre. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:41, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Where's Secular Easter?

Like Christmas, and especially in America, Easter can be quite secular. Many families celebrate Easter with a gift basket of candy and an Easter egg hunt, totally devoid of mention of anything Christian. We really need a section on this. Right now the article has nothing whatsoever on it. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

So the last paragraph of the lede is "nothing"? There was a section on "secular" Easter customs a couple of years back, but discussions and multiple to and fro edits caused the decision to split it to a separate article at which point I added a hatnote pointing to the new article. I see the hatnote has been generalised since then. Would a second hatnote for Easter customs work? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 05:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

"Additional customs that have become associated with Easter and are observed by both Christians and some non-Christians include egg hunting, the Easter Bunny, and Easter parades." is next to nothing. Essentially, in its current state—whether intentionally or not—the current article whitewashes the secular element of the holiday out in favor of a purely Christian article, which is not at all the reality of the situation nowadays. In fact, in many mainstream cases, a Christian element is completely missing but it's still very much Easter. I think the article needs a sizable section discussing what Easter is in parts of the west rather than treating the article with a purely Christian lens. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:59, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I tend to agree with bloodofox. In most western nations, Easter is MORE a secular holiday period than a religious one. To have our primary article concentrate on the religious aspects is not delivering an accurate picture of Easter. HiLo48 (talk) 07:06, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with others here that the secular element of Easter needs to be expanded... the Christmas article does a pretty good job of addressing that holiday's situation, but I'd certainly concede that Christmas is much more popular amongst secular people and is more widespread into non-western non-Christian societies as such than Easter. I'll do a hunt (pun intended?) for some sources about secular celebration and try to incorporate some sourced changes into the intro and/or body, but the hard part with Easter is that the secular elements of celebration are not as widespread as those of Christmas, AFAIK, and we need the article to reflect Easter as a worldwide celebration without being geographically biased. If I make any significant edits that are disagreed with, please respond here and we can discuss further. If anyone else here wants to dedicate themselves to expanding this as well, particularly before Easter arrives, it'd be a good project to undertake. Crumpled Fire (talk) 14:20, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2014

This page needs to be edited because it contains information which is completely false. Easter is NOT a Christian festival and holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day after his crucifixion at Calvary as described in the New Testament. The Christian festival and holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day after his crucifixion at Calvary as described in the New Testament is called the Resurrection celebration or the anniversary of the Resurrection. It has nothing to do with Easter, which is a pagan holiday celebrating and worshipping the pagan Teutonic goddess Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of springtime, fertility, and motherhood. This pagan celebration has as its fertility symbol a hare in Europe and a bunny rabbit in North America, because of their rapid fertility rate, symbolized by the Easter egg. However, this is also a wrong symbol to associate together with a hare or a rabbit because they do not lay eggs. They are viviporous (like humans) not oviporous. The females have eggs, but they carry them inside their bodies full term until their water breaks and then the offspring emerges. So hares and bunny rabbits do not lay eggs! What is said in this article about the Christian festival and holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day after his crucifixion at Calvary should be listed under another article entitled "Resurrection celebration" or "anniversary celebration of the resurrection". Somebody who was very confused about these two completely separate events and festivals has mixed them together as though they were one festival or holiday. They are instead two completely separate festivals or holidays with completely separate origins and are celebrated by different groups of people. Easter is a pagan celebration which is observed by pagans and those who hold to ancient and classical mythology of polytheism. Christians, on the other hand, do not celebrate nor worship pagan idols nor the gods or goddesses of mythological polytheism. Instead, they celebrate and worship the risen Savior and Lord Jesus Christ, whose resurrection is celebrated annually on the anniversary of it in the spring. These two fetivals and holidays should not be confused as they have in this article. Kerryyarbrough (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 01:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

There are ample sources which describe Easter as a Christian holiday. Like Christmas, it now has heavily secular elements. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Starting a FAQ

Each year around this time we get the same questions regarding the etymology, origins and history of Easter, and many of us spent time hunting down previous discussions in the archives to point people to. I've added a FAQ template, and will be filling it with some of the headers I've proposed in the past, including the four mentioned in [1] as well as "This article doesn't match what I read on ReligiousTolerance.org". -Ben (talk) 13:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks like I'm nearly incapable of figuring out the FAQ template syntax. Any help would be appreciated. -Ben (talk) 14:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

You're not alone. {{FAQ row}} is either broken or needlessly convoluted, so I just bypassed it. No such user (talk) 06:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Paul's quote source

The article is protected, therefore could somebody please add the source to Paul's quote from the etymology secion ("Christ our Pascha has been sacrificed for us"). It's from 1 Cor. 5:6-8. The wording is different in different translations, people may want to check it out. Also, is there a consensus on Wikipedia which translation should be used? 37.144.73.59 (talk) 08:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC), Alexander

I have edited the section in view of your observations. There is no consensus about which Bible version to use in Wikipedia, nor is there any need for it. If a bibleverse link is given to any English version of a verse, you get to a page on which there is a link to "all English translations" included in BibleGateway. Esoglou (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2014

There is no reliable source quoted for the Ishtar origin of the word Easter. There's only a link to http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html. Please remove that or produce a reputable quote. Deroude (talk) 12:01, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

:Done -Ben (talk) 12:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

marking template as done by Ben Cannolis (talk) 13:17, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Easter - History

I can't believe that, with all the information available, some people are still attempting to downplay or even deny the obvious Jewish and pre-Christian ('pagan') roots of the European celebration of Easter. It didn't spring from the earth fully formed in AD 50 and maintain that form unchanged until today, yet that is definitely the tone of some people's writing. I have looked through a number of Easter-related Wikipedia pages, and it seems to me that this is a problem common to most of them. Heavenlyblue (talk) 23:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

There are definitely some Christians here who cannot handle the possibility that anything associated with their god is wrong, and will fight in very un-Christians ways against any such suggestions, but there are also some very reasonable Christian editors, who will discuss rationally. We are also bound by Wikipedia rules, whereby well-sourced material must be considered. So don't give up. Keep it civil, and well-sourced. HiLo48 (talk) 23:42, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

The Easter festival obviously did not spring from the earth fully formed in AD 50, but within a few decades it developed from the Jewish Passover festival (whatever that may have developed from, and this is a matter of conjecture) into something with a completely changed focus and not at all identical with the Jewish Passover. It does not seem to have developed from any "pagan" festival. Esoglou (talk) 12:46, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Really Obvious that Easter has Pagan roots, along with a lot of other Christian holidays. The name its self comes from a Eostre, a fertility Goddess. The Egg is a symbol of fertility, so is the Easter bunny. In a lot of areas if the Christians could not stop the Pagans from celebrating their holiday they incorporated those holidays into their own. Renaming a tradition Christian does not make it so. DarkMystik1 (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that those who in the second century were celebrating the feast (and disputing whether to hold it on the same date as the Jewish feast or on the following Sunday) were influenced by the fact that, centuries later, some Germanic tribes would call it by a name that some would link to a goddess, or that they were influenced by the fact that, again centuries later, people would associate eggs and bunnies with it. But it seems that others, God bless them, do hold that idea or something like it. Esoglou (talk) 07:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The Eostre article claims that Bede is the first written recording of the word 600 years after the first written mention of Pascha. The pagan roots of Christmas, in stark contrast, have substantial support for a pagan origin. I would be very much interested in a Latin source that describes pagan spring festivals before the 8th century that would indicate some sort of connection. The people who argue for a pagan origin of Easter usually cite modern sources for the idea, but where did this idea come from? Is there any indication before Bede that makes this theory more than speculation? 69.116.158.191 (talk) 13:15, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I have seen television series that link the timing of Easter to pre-Christian change of season, start of harvest season, and Spring equinox celebrations. I find it odd that this article makes no mention of that. It can't be that hard to source? Wikipedia should represent a neutral point of view (NPOV): "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." dissolve^talk 15:14, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The etymology of Pascha

This is obviously Aramaic, not Hebrew. Why does Wikipedia in various languages stubbornly say that it is Hebrew? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omegsi1 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Try the wiktionary[2]. It shows the progression from Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek and finally to Latin. I suppose you could insert the Aramaic between the Greek and Hebrew, but the word isn't Aramaic in origin. 69.116.158.191 (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps Omedgsi1 was objecting to the expression "through Aramaic from Hebrew", rather than "from Aramaic", which is in fact what it the Greek word was derived from directly. It is derived from Hebrew only if we rightly or wrongly suppose that the Aramaic word was derived from the Hebrew word and was not a parallel development. I think there is no harm in responding to the complaint by rewording as I have now done. Esoglou (talk) 15:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The word is plainly Aramaic, and unless I missed something, whatever Wiktionary has, Wikipedia in various languages says that it is Hebrew. Of course, this is a detail, and of course the Aramaic word may have been a calque on the Hebrew, but it plainly is not Hebrew. The source moreover that is repeatedly cited in Wikipedia for it being Hebrew is a survey of European history by a well-known historian (though one much criticized precisely for numerous errors of detail, and not any respectable source on Semitic languages and etymology. In short, this is a minor but I submit striking example of how Wikipedia recycles published errors. The word anyway is Aramaic, and I hope no one disputes this. It may be that its usage was influenced by Hebrew. But it wears its Aramaic origin on its face: it is NOT a Hebrew loanword in Aramaic, which is what "through Aramaic from Hebrew" would tend to suggest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.247.243.1 (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2014 (UTC) So I just sits and waits to see if anyone authorized to edit this page--since of course I am not--will ever change this error. Just saying... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.247.243.1 (talk) 12:37, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Is it OK now? Esoglou (talk) 13:38, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

92.247.243.1, no objection about Aramaic origins (I don't know personally if they're right, but wouldn't be surprised to find they are). Still, the etymologies are now getting pretty weighty for the lead sentence and paragraph, and actually they are not the critical point. This level of detail might better go later. Much more central is 1 Cor 5:7: "Christ, our Passover, is sacrificed for us". That's why the words for Passover are connected to the Greek and Latin "Pascha". Pascha is not just the day of celebration of Christ's resurrection. Pascha is Christ Himself, the one who died. In Judaism, the "Pascal" lamb was sacrificed in order to celebrate Passover, and in Christianity, Christ's sacrifice, and at the time of Passover too, leads Christians out of a life of subjugation to sin and towards the promised land of God's Heavenly Kingdom. In Orthodox language, the Jewish Passover is the representative "type", and the Christian Passover is its fulfillment in the New Covenant. The etymologies are reflective of the religious meaning, not the cause of the religious meaning. Evensteven (talk) 03:14, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I find it interesting that nonsense gets put in Wikipedia, and stays there for a very long time, and when someone (in this case me) challenges it, people either ignore this or say it does not matter. If it did not matter, then the false Hebrew "etymology" also should not have mattered and should not have been there. Yet at the time this nonsense was inserted, as the record shows, no one said that it did not matter. This goes to the very heart of whether Wikipedia can actually serve to correct commonly repeated errors or whether it is simply supposed to canonize them. Obviously, anyway, there are many people who do care about when Jews stopped speaking Hebrew and switched to Aramaic, and whether Jesus and his disciples spoke one or the other. Millions of people apparently, maybe even billions. And the possibility that some Jewish terms were borrowed from Hebrew in the Western Roman Empire but from Aramaic in the Eastern seems like something that may one day even merit a Wikipedia article of its own. But the basic point that I think we have just seen is a kind of attempt to control opinion by first making it impossible for someone like to correct such a flagrant error at all, and then, when a someone with a proper status in the Wikipedia food chain does correct it because I called it to their attention, to claim that it does not matter. Is THIS what Wikipedia is supposed to be about?

"Donahoe's magazine" -- reliable source?

This edit by User:Hazhk quotes an 1881 popular magazine as its source. Can we find a better source? Being suspicious of Mesopotamian origins for anything Easter-related, it stuck out at me. -Ben (talk) 13:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The article Easter egg gives for the same statement not only that unreliable (I would think) source but also a 2004 book by Church Publishing, Inc. that seems to be a Wikipedia-reliable source.

The information, if correct, is difficult to harmonize with the idea that Easter is really a spring festival in honour of an Indoeuropean goddess call Eostre or Ostara, with whom eggs and bunnies were associated. Which is harder to believe? Esoglou (talk) 14:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

One might not ordinarily consider "an 1881 popular magazine" to be a reliable source, but if it correctly and reliably reports something, it would seem to be reliable, at least in the one case. I would agree a verification from another source is in order (the 2004 book?).

It's not surprising that it may be difficult to harmonize the relationship of Easter to Ostara, since that whole idea is bogus from the start. The name may be derived, but pretty much only in English and German. It's "Pascha", or some derivation of it, almost everywhere else (even in the Scots dialect), and clearly the festival is Christian, and about the resurrection of Christ. The name derivation for "Easter" antedates Old German and falls into the earliest categories for "Old English" - from old Frisian really, a form of Anglian (the Angles were a clan related to the Saxons). Our only known reference is from the writings of Bede in his book on computus, written in the Northumbrian dialect, a form of early 8th century Saxon present in what is now Yorkshire. And in that reference, Bede tells of a spring festival for a Saxon goddess already defunct in its observation (at least in Northumbria, which had again been Christianized). There are no other written sources for the word, the goddess, or the festival. Old German comes later because there are no written sources in Germany as early as Bede. That only began in the century following Bede. The red-dyed eggs were a very early Christian tradition still celebrated throughout Orthodoxy, its presence clear in the history of the Byzantine empire. If you need one, perhaps I can track down a reliable Orthodox source. Let someone reconcile that to Eostre if they want to try. Bunnies: I don't know where they came from (except other bunnies) or what they're supposed to symbolize in Christianity, but they're more localized, much more recent, and much more tenuously connected with the religion (if at all). Today, they're much more closely associated with corporations peddling candy. Evensteven (talk) 18:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I have just had a long discussion at Names of Easter and on Reliable Sources/Noticeboard with someone who was insisting that the Eostre/Ostara hypothesis is fact and who was deleting information about other theories on the ground that authors cited for matters other than linguistics were not linguists. That explains my mentioning the theory and perhaps giving a false impression that I have faith in it. Esoglou (talk) 19:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

That'd be me. And actually historical linguistics shows that she's a reflex of the commonly attested Indo-European dawn goddess. And it's wrong to say the theonym was limited to Bede; there are the groups of Matronae connected to her name (which it seems the in albis theory proposer wasn't aware of—they had just been found when the theory was published), various personal names, and various toponyms that are to be considered. Sure, as with most etymologies, there have been alternatives. These alternatives have been largely ignored in the Anglosphere—so much so that they're often not even mentioned or outright rejected in general audience works on the topic—but the issue wasn't that there are alternative etymologies. The issue was, as I see it, Esoglou using unreliable/inappropriate sources. The magazine being discussed here is also an unreliable/inappropriate source.

I'll be returning when time opens up, as I have many more references to bring to the table with Ēostre. There's been much criticism of the attempt to deny Bede's attestation (Bede is demonstratively correct in various other areas discussing paganism—cf. Mōdraniht— when he's not launching attacks on it; Anglo-Saxon paganism still very much existed during Bede's time) and the comparative evidence, of which there is plenty. This curious attempt to reject comparative linguistics, a generally trustable (Christian!) medieval source, and even the archaeological record likely has something to do with a particular, Christian approach to academia and pre-Christian religion, which it appears that you're sympathetic to. That's OK; we can still work together, but it's good to know what is informing your editing decision. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't take it that you had any faith in the theory, Esoglou, just a mention as you say. Bloodofox, I'm not denying the linguistics or the theonym either, nor the existence of Anglo-Saxon paganism in Bede's time. Northumbria was pretty well Christianized in his time, though. Northern Germany, however, was not, and it didn't have any writing until it became Christianized, within about a century after. And that coincides with the first development of Old German. A lot of Old English postdates Bede too; he was on the early end, and the commonality of language on the island developed with gradual unification of its rule. But the whole lot of that is not relevant to the Christian festival of Pascha, which had already existed for over 700 years, originating in Jerusalem, celebrated in the island under the jurisdiction of the church in Rome (who called it Pascha). If you're trying to imply that Easter was a pagan festival that supplanted Pascha in England, you have a much bigger job to do than applying etymologies. Evensteven (talk) 23:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a common misperception. The Germanic peoples had an indigenous alphabet; the runic alphabet; see, for example, the Bryggen inscriptions. Anyway, that's beside the point. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Old German", probably Old Low German/Old Saxon given the region, but that's also beside the point. More on to the point: Christianity didn't pop up out of a vacuum and, as much as its bureaucracy tried to fight it, syncretism was rampant. There are many "easter"s now; there's an entirely secular Easter (which this article currently all but totally ignores) and then there are the various flavors the Christian reflex of Pascha comes in and their multitude of traditions (probably all built on or over a pre-existing foundation). Anyway, many Indo-European branches show explicitly have such a dawn goddess, and they far predate Christianity, and therefore various activities involving her recognition may as well. It would not be in the slightest bit strange if eggs, hares, or other notions of fertility were involved in this, as they're clearly straightforwardly associated with spring/the return of the sun (compare, for example, the Roman Floralia). That said, obviously Christianity brought with it Pascha, but it's unclear what it met and mingled with in there region—pre-Anglo-Saxon migration, post-Anglo-Saxon, and/or during the migration of Norse to the island. This topic really hasn't seen the degree of modern study that it deserves. As we see with Yule/Christmas, ancient traditions can sometimes have a habit of dying hard. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:13, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have the misconception that only linguists understand a language, and also that pre-dating is more significant than it is. I don't deny the mingling of cultures either, as Christianity spread into new regions. It has always been a Christian practice to bless and incorporate local traditions insofar as they are compatible with Christianity itself. That doesn't imply that it accepted or incorporated pagan rites. But creating a fire around which the community could celebrate Christmas, using the local convention of the Yule log, sure. The Yule log had one context in paganism, another in Christianity. Contexts also shift with time; we don't build our Christmas fires outside these days, and the communities tend to be simply families now. Your whole tone and approach are designed to be critical in some way, to imply a corruption of Christianity or the like. But the problem is that you aren't speaking Christian; to you it's a language, a context, a faith, and a way of life that are foreign, and you don't know how to translate. In this realm, it is the Christians who understand better. Science itself is not at odds with the Christian faith (though there are some who would say so). But scientists may or may not have understanding of Christianity, and that's not their expertise. All scientific evidence requires interpretation, and scientists themselves do not interpret everything the same way, just as Christians don't. I am Orthodox Christian. It may surprise you to find out just how very unconventional that can sound in the west. As for eggs, it is hardly a surprise how they are connected to life. Why do you think they were associated with fertility in paganism? Why are you surprised that they are symbolic of life in Christianity? And why do you think that the earthly and physical are unrelated to the spiritual? At Pascha, the eggs symbolize the Christian life, with God, made possible in the physical death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They do not symbolize the same thing as you will find in a pagan fertility belief. But the Church never had to accept the pagan belief in order to use the egg as a well-suited symbol, and doesn't care who first thought of using it as a symbol. It used the Sun in the same way at Christmas as a symbol for the Son of God whose birth is celebrated then - certainly not original, but also not inappropriate. This is not Orthodox doctrine exactly, but it goes against no Orthodox doctrine, and in fact it is related to the Incarnation of Christ. Good luck figuring that out unless you're willing to do some extensive exploration of the practice of Orthodoxy as well as its theology. Some other Christians may object, but not Orthodoxy. The whole huge controversy about this stuff in the west just stems from argumentativeness about points that don't matter. That leaves you with your criticisms of the Church, for what they're worth. Is that satisfying? Evensteven (talk) 01:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

What I'm hoping for in my request--to put my cards on the table--is a reliable source on the origin of the modern practices related to Easter Eggs as understood by the English-language wikipedia audience. I think that most of us are very willing to accept totally independent origins for the word "Easter", the ecclesiastical history of the Christian religious feast Easter, individual relgious or secular pratices observed during Easter, as well as perspectives from comparative religion or comparative theology, even when those may contradict each other. (For example, I'd love to see the Easter<Ishtar theory covered from the perspective of the history of 19th-century sectarian controversy--in which it was important enough to leave echoes to this day--while seeing it denied as anything having to do with the actual origin of or [pre-19th-century] history of Easter.)

I am not clear on the earlist attestation of "Easter Eggs" as a term, and am skeptical (without any contrary facts) that the 17th-century papal quote wasn't a 19th-century fabrication. I'd love to see firmer substantiation of that quote, and don't feel like the quoted source leaves us any breadcrumbs, as it doesn't cite any sources itself. --Ben (talk) 02:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I can sympathize with your intent, but "the English-language wikipedia audience" are worldwide, and "modern practices related to Easter Eggs" seem to have multiplied with ever-increasing complexity, often ever-more divergent from anything religious. I'm just not sure how many sources and how much article space would be required to cover it. As to the term "Easter Eggs", I'm afraid I haven't a clue. I only know the practice of using eggs symbolically at Pascha is very old, but not when or where they came to be called "Easter Eggs". Maybe there's a reliable source that reports on "firsts", in a country that uses "Easter", of course. But the ones I've tried don't even get close. Evensteven (talk) 06:25, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

To Ben: Properly speaking, it isn't a "papal quote". It is just one of the prayers of blessing in the Roman Ritual, prayers with a longer history than that of the 1610 book. I have put in Easter egg (which is not on my watchlist) a more modern translation of the prayer. I think that on this Easter page there should be no more than the briefest mention of Easter eggs. Esoglou (talk) 11:08, 25 April 2014 (UTC)