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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 82.141.126.28 (talk) at 21:22, 7 June 2014 (→matero?: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Requested Move: → Maté

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: article not moved Armbrust, B.Ed. WrestleMania XXVIII The Undertaker 20–0 07:42, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mate (beverage) → Maté – When a subject is not primary topic for the term that it is most commonly called, WP:PRECISION instructs us to, "choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English." Parenthetical disambiguation should be used only if this is "not possible." Random House Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary, Oxford, Merriam-Webster, Columbia, and Britannica, all give the name of this subject with the diacritic as their preferred variant. This diacritic is not from Spanish, but rather clarifies that the word is pronounced as two syllables, unlike "mate" with a silent e. It's same idea as café or résumé, where a diacritic is retained to show pronunciation. Kauffner (talk) 14:28, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Addendum. I just noticed that maté and mate are currently two separate DAB pages, which is quite irregular. If this proposal is approved, they will have to be merged at "mate". Not only that, but the pages should be merged regardless of what happens to this proposal. Kauffner (talk) 16:47, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose. It's the wrong term. It has no diacritics in the original language. In the original language it means I killed. There is a great deal of discussion at Talk:Yerba mate/Archive 1 about this. Second, and not yet mentioned, the pronunciation is wrong. The final e is short and the accent makes it sound out as "ma-tay", which is also wrong. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:48, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In English, mäˌtā (ma tay) is the correct pronunciation, according to Oxford and American Heritage. If you google this word, the results are about people in English-speaking countries drinking this item on account of supposed health benefits. There is no reason to think that our readers are greatly concerned with this item's place in the culture of Argentina or Paraguay. The proposed spelling is quite common in published English material, especially if you compare it to most other diacritics that get put on Wiki titles. Published reference works don't use disambiguators, so removing them makes a title look more professional. Disambiguators often confuse readers as well, although that's not necessarily the case here. Kauffner (talk) 15:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The point is it's the wrong pronunciation. If you go to the region and say you want to drink a mäˌtā you will get looks of puzzlement. And unlike your recent example, resume is correct spelling in English while résumé is correct in French. Your suggested spelling is I killed in the original and for some reason, some English lexicographers have decided to insert the diacritics incorrectly. If you are asking to go against consensus, please canvas all those who discussed this in the past. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:19, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you say any English-language word to a non-English speaking person in Paraguay, you might get "looks of puzzlement." Words are spelled and pronounced differently in different languages, and so what? As for "résumé", the correct English-language spelling is "ré·su·mé or re·su·me", according to Merriam-Webster. Kauffner (talk) 16:47, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The point is not saying an English word to a Castilian-speaking population, it's speaking what is supposed to be an exonym to them. The correct spelling in English is not resume since English officially has no diacritics. Webster is incorrect on so many other fronts I wonder how the colonies manage to communicate with the rest of the English speaking world. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • support I actually came here with intent to make a similar nomination. The DAB argument is good, and while I agree with Gorlitz in that this may be viewed as incorrect, but the usage is frequent in English media in order to accent the last letter - the point (in english) is to distinguish it from the word mate, which obviously has a different meaning.--KarlB (talk) 21:48, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose; I have serious concerns about using only a diacritic for disambiguation. Capital letters are one thing; accent marks another thing entirely, IMO. I think it would be too confusing, and needlessly complicate linking and searching. I would support Maté (beverage), if the accent proves to be used more often than not. Powers T 18:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • From the archives of the talk:Yerba mate article: Both the spellings "mate" and "maté" are used in English. Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged, 2002, shows the main entry for the word as ma·té or ma·te. The explanatory material for main entries on page 14a, headed 1.71, says "When a main entry is followed by the word or and another spelling or form, the two spellings or forms are equal variants. Their order is usually alphabetical, and the first is no more to be preferred than the second..." The New Oxford American Dictionary. The Oxford English Dictionary, American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary The acute accent on the final letter is likely added as a hypercorrection, and serves to indicate that the word and its pronunciation are distinct from the common English word "mate". However, the Yerba Mate Association of the Americas states that it is always improper to accent the second syllable, since doing so confuses the word with an unrelated Spanish word for killing "FAQs: Pronunciation and Spelling". Yerba Mate Association of the Americas. Retrieved 2008-11-27. ("Maté" literally means "I killed" in Spanish).
  • Comment: Kauffner, you were part of the discussion of the earlier move at Talk:Yerba mate/Archive 1, and you know how it turned out. If you have new evidence/rationale for why this spelling should now be accepted even though it wasn't before, you should bring that up explicitly. Otherwise I don't see any reason it would make sense to intentionally make the two articles have inconsistent spelling. - Afiler (talk) 05:02, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose (with details and a TL;DR at the end): This has been discussed in the past, and I don't see a reason to discuss it again. Still, if one must ask the same questions again, I shall do the same. I am going to, once again, ask everyone in favor of the change to explain why English should insert diacritics the English language itself doesn't even have in the first place on words from foreign languages. I'll subsequently (and sarcastically) request that we put diacritics on words such as anime, which, unlike how most English speakers would read it, is pronounced with emphasis on me (as in "amends", not as in "meaning", and much less as maid -- most English speakers would read it "ah-nee-may"), and is technically an English-derived word in the first place (the Japanese shortened it from the English animation, as they like so much to do, and changed its pronunciation in the process; English speakers eventually imported it back meaning Japanese (and sometimes also Chinese, Korean, etc) -style animation). Then, I'll mention en passant how both "animé" and "maté" are cases of hypercorrection, and as such incorrect. I'll also take the time to mention how emphasis in mate is on ma, and not on te as the diacritic would incorrectly suggest for a word coming from the West Iberian languages (and, as far as I recall, with its origin being traceable to the Tupi-Guarani peoples, but I digress). I'll finally sigh at all those people giving as examples French words that kept their diacritics, such as (the now quite ancient) née (female form for born) for the family name a married woman had when she was single, given those diacritics were already part of the word in the source language, and I'll also mention how the diacritics on résumé (for a CV; not to be confused with the opposite of "pause" :P) are also found in French but the most common English form actually removes them, and I'll seize the opportunity and state once again that that's not the case here. Conclusions (TL;DR STARTS HERE): There are way too many arguments against the change; I've listed a few of the strongest. They are more or less the reason why it was decided that the article wouldn't have accents in the past, when we already had one such discussion. I believe we can all play this rehash game, but the result isn't going to change, and I suspect all Wikipedia contributors (even those who do fairly little here such as myself) have something better to do. :) -- Vítor Cassol (talk) 10:42, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If I'm understanding the situation correctly, I feel like this is an argument to be had with the English language itself. It likes to steal words and mash them up and doesn't give a whit for making them consistent with other words, so sometimes mate is mate and sometimes it's mate. We aren't here to fix English, so just leave the word as what it is. Darryl from Mars (talk) 12:59, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment While I agree with Vitor Sassol, in that this is indeed likely a case of hypercorrection, we have to follow how the sources use the word. Dictionaries seem to prefer the word with a diacritic; do we have evidence on how other sources use this? Regardless of how *wrong* it is, it's still correct because of broad use.--KarlB (talk) 15:02, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
comment As indicated above, dictionaries don't prefer the word with a diacritic, they simply include it as an option. Other evidence is given above in the paragraph that starts "From the archives of the". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Vítor Cassol. "Mate" is the correct spelling, and (as Powers mentions) using only a diacritic -- especially an incorrect one -- for disambiguation isn't quite enough. CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Incorrect" -- There's a bold claim. In the nomination, I gave a list of references that indicate that the proposed form is their first choice. The list would be even longer if I included dictionaries that give it as second choice. Britannica uses the form of the name with a diacritic exclusively. It's disambiguation not only in the sense of allowing the software to bring up the correct article, but also to help the reader differentiate "mate" from "maté" and to be aware of the difference in pronunciation. Kauffner (talk) 16:39, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Instead of moving just added additional English spelling to lede, as the article already contains a special sections that also explains the alternative spellings of the word in English and possible reasons for them. warshytalk 16:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I have nothing against including the additional English spelling, but give some context. As you put it there, it sounds like it's a correct form. It should mention that is is "sometimes also spelled "maté" in English, although that is a case of hypercorrection". I would simply be bold and add it myself, but I want to avoid things that may lead to edit wars. --Vítor Cassol (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose, and IMO it should be Yerba mate (beverage). (I know "yerba" is technically the plant, but yerba mate is the normal English name for the beverage too.) — kwami (talk) 19:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment No, it's not. --Vítor Cassol (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment The loose tea is yerba or yerba mate. If the hot tea is called yerba mate, it's simply incorrect. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. By "loose tea", do you mean the unprepared (dry) leaves? These are yerba mate (erva mate in Portuguese), often referred to simply as yerba (erva in Portuguese). The very idea of calling the beverage yerba mate is completely nonsensical, and laughable at best. --Vítor Cassol (talk) 22:08, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, the unprepared leaves. In terms that a tea drinker would understand: "loose tea". And yes, I would never ask to purchase "yerba mate" at the local Mennonite grocer, simply yerba. However, if I go to an upscale tea shop, I would ask for yerba mate, since that's what they would call it. And I agree, no one drinks "yerba mate". Time to make some tereré. Too hot for anything else. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:41, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mate / maté

I see you undid my change to the Mate (beverage) page, when I said that "maté" is only considered a correct spelling in English; you said, when undoing it, that it's also a valid spelling in other languages. Could you please confirm if that's really the case, and if so which languages you are referring to? I read a good part of the discussions about this spelling issue (in both that article's talk page and Yerba mate's) and couldn't find a reference to anything like that (granted, though, I didn't read fully through every single discussion). I was also further surprised by your change because in the above-mentioned discussions the contributions by you which I saw would indicate that, if anything, you'd be more willing to eliminate the "maté" spelling all together :)

Thanks! --Cotoco (talk) 12:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I can.
And the slight variant: lt:Matė and I would still like to eliminate the incorrect spelling and keep the correct transliteration. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks! --Cotoco (talk) 03:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have been drinking mate for a while now, and I have a problem with how exhaustive the process comes off as being. , whoever wrote all the BS preparation really went overboard to the point where somebody might think that it's a complicated process when in reality it is not at all. The whole preparation and brewing section could be replaced by, put some yerba in the gourd, pour hot (but not boiling water) drink with provided bombilla. All the BS about how to drink it in groups, it's just too detailed unnecessarily. I've shown the article to longtime native mate drinkers, and the ideas expressed in the article seem trivial even to them. I don't know how to correct the article to reflect that, as it is well written by somebody who obviously cares about the subject (a little too much). It's almost like as if an alien species took meticulous notes about how to do something very simple like making a tea. I bet this was written by an american sociology student looking to justify their trip to Argentina taking something simple and explaining the heck out of it to impress an american professor. It's harmless unless somebody comes to this page after buying some yerba and wondering how to prepare it, and being turned off. anyhow . . . I'll try to make an edit that reflects my point of view . . Paul

"Mate" is an English word, rhymes with "bait," means lots of things, none of them beverage. Hence, it is ambiguous and confusing every time the "mate" spelling is used without "yerba." The spelling "maté" causes no ambiguity problems in English (it might if used in the Spanish Wikipedia, but so what)? Here, in English, "mate" is ambiguous and leads to mispronunciation, and maté is unambiguous. The maté spelling prompts English speakers to pronounce the word in a manner similar to its correct pronunciation in Spanish. The word should therefore be spelled maté everywhere the full "yerba maté" phrase is not used, and especially in the article title. However if not that, then use the full name, yerba mate, every time. "Yerba mate" can be argued as a way to spell yerba maté, while "mate" by itself just spells the unrelated English word pronounced as "mait," making the article a jarring read to those who know the correct pronunciation, and creating a source of sad but comical pronunciation errors by readers who do not. Ocdnctx (talk) 23:31, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Exports From Argentina

I deleted this. It was entirely unsourced, and read like an advert for a company, who's own Wikipedia page also reads like it was written by their PR company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.110.206.53 (talk) 23:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

matero?

I just got (Redirected from Matero), but the article has no mention about "matero". I would be nice to know the reason for the redirect. And I can't think a reason what should not be mentioned in the actual article. 82.141.126.28 (talk) 21:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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