Talk:Climate change denial

...in climate science is associated with neoliberal free market ideology backed by industrial interests...

I'm dubious that the version we have now is correct (it might be supported by sources, I don't know, that's a different matter). "Backed by industrial interests" seems fair: there's a lot of coal money at stake; and Exxon certainly in the past. That money may or may not be flowing mainly to right-wing pols; but "free market"? Not really. Carbon taxes are entirely compatible with free markets William M. Connolley (talk) 18:55, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

That's true, but among the regulatory options available, only a few are, cap and share, carbon credit the others.

It is not the case that the recent regulation on cola burning plants encompass an exchange mechanism, however, and the opposition to regulating CO2 emissions is more centered on those types of regulations and involves private sector entities as opposed to governments.

Here's a link to the section of the Wikipedia article on neoliberal economics Neoliberalism#Neoliberal_economics. --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 19:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's definitely a link. But its not obviously of any relevance. the opposition... involves private sector entities. Yes, it does. But why would you describe coal interests as "neoliberal"? They don't seem at all liberal, or at all neo, to me. They are just straight forward old-fashioned special interests, influencing government in their favour. That's not at all neolib, and not at all free market William M. Connolley (talk) 20:02, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree with that. Libertarian and conservative would be about right I think but neoliberal isn't near that degree of libertarianism.. Neoliberals believe in taking notice of the possible consequences of actions. Dmcq (talk) 20:18, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

The cited source for that sentence[1] calls them 'the right' and 'right-wingers' more often than anything else. Why not just say " ...in climate science is associated with right-wing ideologies backed by industrial interests..." rather than trying to WP:OR exactly which brand and sub-brand of right-wing they are? --Nigelj (talk) 21:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

That's not quite right either. I'm acquainted with a number of prominent deniers, of which only a very small minority (one, maybe two) are "backed by industrial interests." Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

@Nigelj: "Right-wing" would be better than "free market", without a doubt, but neoliberal is far more precise and informative, as I'm trying to present in the body. There are three main aspects that are relevant here: anti-regulation, opposition to government intervention in markets, and supply-side economics.

"Neoliberal market fundamentalism" would be another candidate.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@Nigelj: I just noticed that the source you mentioned also includes mention of "market fundamentalism".

In addition to reversing the thirty-year privatization trend, a serious response to the climate threat involves recovering an art that has been relentlessly vilified during these decades of market fundamentalism [bolding added]

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 04:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The Koch brothers are the largest funders of denialism, and they are an "energy company"Climate Change ‘Denier’ Linked To Funding From Energy Companies, Including Koch whose industrial interests are at stake in the regulation of CO2 emissions. There are any sources that discuss neoliberal economic policy, etc., in this context

1. The Routledge Handbook of Environment and Communication
2. New Frontiers in Technological Literacy: Breaking with the Past
3. Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence
4. The Earth is Too Big to Fail

   Since the 1970s, our political and financial classes have been in the grip of neoliberalism, the bedrock ideology of global laissez-faire capitalism. Neoliberals are wholly committed to mass privatization, unfettered deregulation, corporate tax cuts, trade liberalization, as well as a massive reduction in the role of government. Neoliberalism, regrettably, has become the economic orthodoxy of our time, with disastrous results.
   Our non-response to the climate crisis is attributable to the institutionalization of neoliberal values, which have seeped into our collective conscience. For decades, apostles of neoliberalism have assumed, fallaciously, that the market system is the only viable mechanism capable of regulating CO2 and greenhouse gas emissions.
   art of the problem is that public discourse surrounding climate change is fraught with misinformation. This is not an accident. The Koch brothers, fossil fuel companies, and everyone else invested in the decaying industrial economy have deliberately muddied the waters. And why wouldn't they? They pioneered this model, and they profit from our predicament; it's natural that they would resist change. Their fidelity to the status quo is total. And they've taken extraordinary measures to ensure nothing changes. They've hatched think tanks, engineered elections, purchased politicians, organized PACS, and raised whole armies of propagandists whose sole mission is to manufacture doubt and slant the science. The result: a vast and woefully efficient climate denial machine.

5. Koch company buys up more oil sands licenses in Canada

   The Koch brothers fund numerous think tanks and organizations that deny climate change and promote neoliberal economic policies.

   .
   --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 23:38, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

It seems I'm behind the times in what I neoliberalism is about. Anyway reading the article on that I don't think it is a good term to use because it has different meanings and it has been used as a term of abuse. We should just use simpler terms as that just conveys heat without light. Dmcq (talk) 09:14, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

What source is your opinion based on?--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:23, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Of what in particular? I pointed at the Wikipedia article didn't I? Have you got a reason for wanting to stick in a misused and misunderstood term rather than just making things obvious and easy? Dmcq (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

If you don't have sources to counter the limited selection of those shown above, you don't have any grounds to assert your personal opinion, which is incoherent.

It doesn't matter if you don't like or understand the term, the reliable sources do.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 00:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

It most certainly does matter. The purpose of Wikipedia is to summarize things and make them readable, not duplicate authors' own specialist in--clique lingo and confuse the audience. That you have found one description in a source does not change that more uses are made of other words in those sources that are simpler and describe the situation better, and in fact just looking at the first source in the article neoliberal is just used once whereas the terms I put in were used numerous times. If you really feel the urge to stick in things like that do it in the body of articles and not the lead, the lead in particular is supposed to be readable. Dmcq (talk) 07:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest that you follow WP:RS and WP:NPOV instead of trying to dictate to others how to edit.

I've posted a small number of the numerous sources that use "neoliberal", and they do so because it defines a more specific set of specific principles and policy recommendations than the overly broad, general description of "free-market". Calling the term in--clique lingo and claiming I intend to confuse the audience is problematic. Making negative comments on other editors motivations is a violation of WP:NPA.

You have also misrepresented the fact that I have posted five sources above, not one, and three of them are peer-reviewed academic publications. Do not misrepresent other editors edits, as that is a violation of WP:TALK. Moreover, you have misrepresented the first source I presented, as the term "neoliberal" is used about ten times in the book. That is also a violation of WP:TALK.

Note that I have made some edits to the body of the article characterizing two think tanks as neoliberal, also based on scholarly sources, and I have added to the article on neoliberalism itself the concise summary of policies promoted by them according to the HP piece.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:01, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

The claim that oil companies are behind 'denial' of climate change could be countered by the observation that an extremely high proportion of the cites on pages related to climate science or renewable energy products are from wealthy interests in the renewable energy sector, or from NGOs whom we know to to be financially backed by those operations, some cases to the extent of millions of USD per year. Much of this self-quoting material is presented as fact rather than opinion, and therefore could be considered to be WP:SOAPBOX. The factual accuracy of the claims regarding dispatchable energy generation by renewables have many times been disputed by reliable sources, yet this is skilfully omitted. Even if the claims for the products turn out to be wholly accurate, there is still no verifiable proof that renewables will have any beneficial effect on climate change, yet it is assumed in such pages that they will. Somehow, these considerations are completely overlooked where renewables are concerned, whilst any similar self-congratulatory praise by fossil fuel sellers would be ruthlessly edited out. --Anteaus (talk) 15:36, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

There are good sources showing industrial interests funding denial of science, as well as ideological opposition to scientific findings, and you seem to be conflating IPCC WG1 and WG3 stuff. Your supposition of well-funded promotion of renewable skewing the science looks like original research, and your supposition that the effectiveness of renewable isn't questioned is clearly false: see WG3. . . dave souza, talk 06:49, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Scholarly sources yielded by simple google search

• The search terms are "climate change denial", neoliberal[2] (720 hits)

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I searched ""climate change denial", neoliberal and got 38700 and "climate change denial", freemarket and got 57300, and climate change denial conservative" and got 96700. RS doesn't require us to quote sources using the exact same words. The lead is supposed to be readable. Just because I believe you haven't written the lead well doesn't imply I believe you are actively trying to confuse readers. I wasn't referring to the source you provided but the citation that was in the article. Dmcq (talk) 13:46, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I have read you addition to the neoliberalism article. Adding a bit does not subtract the bits that talk about it having a number of meanings and there being a debate on the usefulness of the term in the social sciences and a bit about it being an academic catchphrase used mainly by critics as a pejorative term. I see some other user has also just now removed your addition though I thought the "unfettered deregulation" was a good description of the relevant bit needed here and would work in a lead. Dmcq (talk) 14:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I see you have now sprinkled neoliberal within the article.

The word 'neoliberal' does not appear in the article about Richard D. North or the Institute of Economic Affairs except in a see also for the institute nor does it appear in the ciitation for the sentence wiith those in where you stuck it.

The 'neoliberal' in the lead of the George C. Marshall Institute article has just been inserted by you. There was no mention of the word in any part of the article before you went there.

I would ask you to be a bit more careful about changing the sources and their references at the same time that way, it does not look good to push things like that. Dmcq (talk) 16:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you check the edit histories of the articles as well as their Talk pages. You are not referring to sources, and your opinions about my edits are inept and off topic, with an accusation of "pushing things" to boot. I have not referred to North as a neoliberal, but there is no question that the Marshal Institute and IEA are frequently referred to as neoliberal, so what is your point?

You are also wrong, again, about the source for IEA, as the statement "Keith Joseph, a very active and committed publicist and polemecist with strong connections to the neoliberal think-tank Institute of Economic Affairs...".

The fact that There was no mention of the word in any part of the article before I inserted it is a sign of the pathetic POV state of the article.

I'm beginning to have serious doubts about your competence.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes you just stuck in a link to something about neoliberalism at the start of that article about the Institute of Economic Affairs and somebody else again removed it. Just like what happened at the other article. Is that what what you are referring to? Have you considered that you might be wrong in sticking in a term into the lead of those articles for which the meaning is disputed and therefore not widely understood? Or that there might have been a reason they didn't use the term before you came along? Or like that I showed above it is not enough to get references shoring up ones point of view but also one should check other terms to get weight? Dmcq (talk) 19:26, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

You should check the other sources yourself regarding WEIGHT, if you think there is a discrepancy. Your pedantic comments here are not helpful.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 23:27, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I find this "pedantic" discussion very helpful, insightful, and revealing. Capitalismojo (talk) 23:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I got the same sort of results searching using Google Scholar, what kind of check should I be doing to quantify the results with the WEIGHT like you get? Dmcq (talk) 07:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

This is not an exercise in source counting. Produce concrete statements from RS to support the text you propose.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 09:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Extra texts would simply extend the number of descriptions with extra words. I was not proposing to make the text more verbose. My complaint all along was about the lead and your addition has been removed from the lead so that's fine. I said putting in things like that was okay in the body and that has been done by you - fine. What I was trying to get across was the basic idea of addressing the audience and determining weight. It seemed you were searching for 'climate change denial neoliberal' rather than seeing what the climate change denial articles overall said. You never addressed the problem of the meaning of neoliberal not being clear and being in dispute and being used in a perjorative way as is documented on that page which I believe makes it a bad word for the lead here. There are enough such disputes about what denial means without adding to the problems. Dmcq (talk) 12:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The meaning of hte term is clear according to the sources. That it has and continues to be used in different ways is something that is not relevant beyond the scope it is used in this context. Likewise for the assertion that it is a "pejorative". Your personal opinion does not matter, reliably sourced statements matter. The term will be re-added to the lead after I'e finished adding it to the body, then you will have no grounds to object whatsoever. Unless you have sources, I find the haranguing line of question to be disruptive, and certainly not collaborative.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

What about searching

• "climate change neofascist"?
• "climate change wiccan transgendered fiscal conservatives"?

In 20 words or less, could anyone summarize the basis for focus on "neoliberal" in this debate?

Yes that does point out a basic problem of the method used. I did a Google search of "climate change denial" fascist and it said there were 1,990,000 hits. Google Scholar even gave 133 hits.

On the point about neoliberalism being clear can I point to the article where it says with citations "Neoliberalism is a term whose usage and definition have changed over time", "This leaves some controversy as to the precise meaning of the term and its usefulness as a descriptor in the social sciences, especially as the number of different kinds of market economies have proliferated in recent years.", " In the last two decades, according to the Boas and Gans-Morse study of 148 journal articles, neoliberalism is almost never defined but used in several senses to describe ideology, economic theory, development theory, or economic reform policy. It has largely become a term of condemnation employed by critics.", "According to Boas and Gans-Morse, neoliberalism is nowadays an academic catchphrase used mainly by critics as a pejorative term, and has outpaced the use of similar terms such as monetarism, neoconservatism, the Washington Consensus and "market reform" in much scholarly writing. Daniel Stedman Jones, a historian of the concept, says the term "is too often used as a catch-all shorthand for the horrors associated with globalization and recurring financial crises""

Doesn't that all suggest it is not a clear cut term never mind one associated with a neutral point of view? Dmcq (talk) 15:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll rephrase the question. In 20 words or less why are we still talking about it on this article's talk page? BTW, that is in not meant as sarcasm to squelch discussion. It is a face value question. Is there a proposed edit someone cares enough about? What edit? Why do they care? What's the argument against. I'd like to see a triple distillation for those of eds (like myself) who think lack of concision reflects insufficient understanding of the issues. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I want to stop neoliberal being plastered all over this and related articles. It isn't clear or neutral. Dmcq (talk) 16:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

19 words, thanks, not bad. Can you add another 20-30 neutral words stating the other side?NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like he is cherry-picking sources to try and carry out his above-stated agenda of excising the word neoliberal from Wikipedia. He is violating WP:NOTFORUM and has now crossed over into obvious ACTIVISM/ADVOCACY territory with his declared agenda. --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That's AE stuff and beware of the WP:BOOMERANG effect. My question to you, Ubikwit, is "What article improvement is being discussed in this thread? In as few dispassionate words as possible... tomorrow is fine..... sleep on it.... revise it over and over to redact the personalizations..... why do you think said edit would be an improvement that meets our various policies & guidelines? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC) PS.... can you get your CRUX ARGUMENT down to 30 words, not including RS? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy: Have you checked the edit history of the article? Just look at my related edits over the past two days. The editor above started making noise about the lead, but has since revealed his actual agenda.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 18:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

When you're interested in making the sort of succinct summary of your view that would be appropriate when using the various DR tools, let me know. I'm unwilling to pick through the bitterness to try to guess what your proposal is, or the core issue in your supporting argument. If you believe it's solid, why not try a gentler WP:Dispute resolution sort of approach when a fresh ear asks for a restatement of the issue? Instead you're clobbering me for not sweating enough in the tl;dr bitterness to arrive at your conclusion that I also should join you in clobbering the other ed. I ain't gonna do that. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk)

Well I'll try the opposing side as I see it. Neoliberalism is a good clear description and sources support it. This opposition can only be based on some agenda rather than following NPOV. RS policy supports my edits and I want to see the article improved. Dmcq (talk) 20:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC) Updated Dmcq (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

As I read this, it sounds like mockery. If that's an accurate interpretation, then it isn't quite what WP:OTHERSOPINION has in mind. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

It is how I read it and was not meant as mockery. I'll cut it down a bit more and perhaps it'll sound more reasonable to you then. Dmcq (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Dmcq, I think your view is "Ubikwit wants to add 'neoliberal' to the article but has failed to identify an applicable RS or explain the term's relevance in context of the proposed edit". Is that a fair summary of your perspective? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. There are reliable sources using the term, however a quick look on the first couple of pages returned from Google for "neoliberal" will confirm what our article says, it is nearly always used in a abusive rather than descriptive manner. Plus the actual meaning is unclear.Terms like free-market, right-wing, deregulation, unfettered etc are more relevant to this article and describe the background better. It doesn't need a neoliberal economics ideology for someone to want to fight against regulation when it might reduce their profits. The term is fine in small amounts but it doesn't belong in the lead as a major factor. Dmcq (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

-arbitrary outdent - Ubikwit, assuming Dmcq's characterization of the RSs is accurate, his reasoning certainly seems persuasive. Would you like to try to convince me he's wrong, without attacking either the ed or his motives (and conciseness helps your cause, at least with me) NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

NAEG, why assume that? That is a non-starter suggestion, as it is not compliant with policy. "Neoliberal" is not a banned term; it's not even on the faulty WP:WTW list. The intricacies regarding use of the term is a borderline WP:CIR issue. I've stated above the three aspects that are relevant to discussions regarding climate change denial, right-wing think tanks, etc. There is a growing body of academic literature on the subject.

I'm not interested in wasting any more time than you, so please have a look at this one edit.

And note that I'd changed the lead to read "neoliberal economic policies" as opposed to "right-wing ideologies"[3], which I consider to be a more objective and informative as well as less inflammatory characterization, and which is a phrasing taken directly from a source. Furthermore, the use of "economic policies" constrains the scope of "neoliberal", putting the meaning in focus.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 04:04, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

What I hear Ubikwit saying

The RSs say that the forces behind climate change denial finance have three main characteristics, and they are (1) anti-regulation, (2) opposition to government intervention in markets, and (3) supply-side economics. The RSs also say that "Neoliberal" describes the confluence of those three characteristics, so we should use "Neoliberal" when talking about the forces behind climate change denial finance.

Is that a reasonable summary, Ubikwit? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 07:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Looking at that diff, I'd also be interested how you square those criteria with [4] - the citation at the end of the line in in the lead with neoliberal stuck in it. The one mention of neoliberal says "And this is true for the statist left as well as the neoliberal right.". Dmcq (talk)

@NewsAndEventsGuy: That's not exactly correct, but getting closer. It would be better to say that the sources related to climate change denial that refer to neoliberalism do so with reference to those three well-documented aspects, primarily, but that is not an exhaustive list of aspect of neoliberalism or all of the associated approaches. The converse of the anti-regulation, anti-intervention stance is that the approach promoted by neoliberals claiming that market mechanisms, such as a carbon credit exchange, and the like can solve the problem.

Incidentally, the pipe link was intended to narrow down the type of "right-wing" policies for clarification. It would be better to go with "market fundamentalism", but that would require some copy editing.

@Dmcq: The question related to that comment in that source is so off topic (related to consumerism and the generation of greenhouse gases causing climate change as opposed to climate change denial, etc.) that it deserves no further response: WP:NOTFORUM.

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:29, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

NAEG THINKS After reading the whole thread, the sources cited, and some other sources besides, I think.... (A) The word "neoliberal" is unnecessary economic/political WP:JARGON which would interfere with many readers' comprehension of climate change denial. Instead of using the single adjective "neoliberal" we could easily use a plain English sentence or two covering the high points behind the word, assuming there is consensus that the RSs support those high points in the first place. (B) In a section on responses to climate change denial I would not object to a quote just because it happened to include the word. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:22, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's correct, of course, which is why it needs a wikilink, at any rate, but you do see it used frequently in scholarly publications on this topic, primarily because all of the denialist think-tanks aim at promoting those policies. In fact, market fundamentalism represents one move in rhetorical space to make the jargon more accessible. If you read that page, you'll see it referred to as a "the neo-liberal doctrines".

In any case, the present text isn't bad, and would be easiest to understand for the least educated members of the reading audience, and neoliberals/ism is wikilinked a couple of places in the body. It might be better to link to market fundamentalism, but it seems more difficult to use "economic policy" in such a phrasing. --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 11:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit, it seems you agree that to combat the jargonish nature of "neoliberal", "it needs a wikilink". However, that's exactly what we are not supposed to do. According to WP:JARGON, "Avoid excessive wikilinking (linking within Wikipedia) as a substitute for parenthetic explanations such as the one in this sentence. Do not introduce new and specialized words simply to teach them to the reader when more common alternatives will do." NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy: No, no you're going to far. There is a difference between "wikiliniking" and "excessive wikilinking". The term is a historical term that serves as a common name for certain doctrines as much as jargon, as shown above regarding the quote on market fundamentalism by Nobel prize winner Joseph E. Stiglitz. You should not confuse technical (i.e., science/engineering) terms with terms that are in common use in public discourse. The term is used repeatedly in relation to the topic of the article in scholarly and other RS, and is also used to describe almost every single "think tank" listed in the article, so the term belongs in the article. When I used the term "jargon" above, I used it in the sense of a kind of shorthand that stands for the three commonly associated policy positions described above. It is not so difficult that it cannot be made readily intelligible in the context of the body of the article with respect to the various positions that think tank advocates have publicly taken and the critical response thereto. There just needs to be more work done in this regard.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:55, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

(A) Though the intent is appreciated, please don't Template:reply when I've obviously participating and can be assumed to have the page watchlisted. You mean well, but it just makes extra work on the other ed's end.

(B) We agree that the word is WP:JARGON; you've highlighted the word "excessively" in that guideline. Well, true, that word does exist in the guideline so a hypertechnical reading does arguably support your claim that this instance would not be one of excessive hyperlinking. In my opinion that's a hypertechnical reading that defeats the over-riding principle that we should strive for clarity by using common understandable language instead of WP:JARGON when possible.

(C) Though I could be wrong, it appears you passionately want there to be a link between this article and neoliberalism. I can live with that, but it's easily done by linking the term when it appears in a quote under the "commentary" section, instead of obfuscating the text we present in wikivoice.

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not appreciate your presumed reading into my comments, and it appears that you are not well read in the relevant topic area.

Just stick to the sources, and keep the pedantic comments to yourself, OK? The only hypertechnical reading of the policy is yours, not mine.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 20:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Personal insults don't change my opinion a whit, of course, and now I WP:DROPTHESTICK NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Feeling mea culpa a bit here, as it probably originated from me trying to summarise a source which referred to free-marked ideology. I think this article should clarify the point that individuals promoting denial commonly cite (1) anti-regulation views, (2) opposition to government intervention in markets. Their financial backing is often from businesses which share these views and have a commercial incentive to stall or block any limitations on fossil fuel use and production. Something to review, will aim to contribute on that, dave souza, talk 12:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

No no, take a bow! It appears to be guiding discussion to the nontechnical verbiage describing the highpoints so thanks for that. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@Dave souza: There was nothing "wrong" with that summary, but I thought it should go further, paralleling the statements in critical sources, to clarify the negative association with right-wing economic policies and corporate oligarchs, and not inadvertently obscure that by mis-association with the more benign use of "free market" in the general sense.

It's a bit of a tangle, but nothing that can't be straightened out, as there are ample sources. You are also right that it is those two aspects of the doctrine that critics using the term "neoliberal" in this specific context are addressing. I'm going on an extended break soon, so it will be up to you and others to build it up.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:55, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Market fundamentalism conveys the idea certainly certainly but if you look at the first line of that article it starts with "Market fundamentalism (also known as free market fundamentalism) is a pejorative term applied to a strong belief in the ability of laissez-faire or free market policies to solve most economic and social problems." Really we should try just describing things rather than applying terms that are outright pejorative. Saying something like unrestricted free-market or deregulated conveys things quite well enough without name calling. More than that I think fundamentalism implies they have some sort of thought out and firm policy whereas it isn't just one thing, there is a certain consistent attitude okay but a lot of what they come up with is incoherent - denial and clear thought tend to be a bit opposite to each other. Dmcq (talk) 08:19, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

No, it is not a pejorative term, and that was added to the article without a source, in violation of NPOV; obviously, I have deleted it and left a note at the offending editors UT page.

You are also attempting to falsely infer that denialism is incoherent, whereas the types of policies predominately promoted by denialists are consistently anti-regulatory, pro-market, etc.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 12:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The change was reverted by another person as well with the comment WP:EGG, you just edit war to stick in pejorative terms against opposition so I have marked it as vandalism. Dmcq (talk) 12:58, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I see yopu went and changed the target article to remove the bit saying it was pejorative. Could you just damn well stop changing the targets of articles at the same time as here and then claiming different about them and obscuring things like that. When your edit has had a bit of time for others to agree or disagree at the target fine but changing things that have been that way for ages and then claiming here your change is correct and immediately edit warring to stick in your change here is just being a PITA. WTF is eating you that you need to do this sort of thing, the sources have plenty of ways of describing the same thing without that sort of annoying messing around. Dmcq (talk) 13:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Apparently you haven't read the related discussions on this page and the support for "right-wing", for example. You also failed to see that the edit summary you mentioned was related to an objection to a piped link, not the term "market fundamentalism", which you are the only editor claiming is pejorative, based on an unsourced POV statement in a Wikipedia article that has been corrected. The piped link was removed, and the statement rephrased so as to be more informative without using the term "neoliberal".

There has been a lot of discussion as to whether "denialism" is pejorative, but not "market fundamentalism".

In the edit I made, "right-wing" modifies "economic policies", and "market fundamentalism" clarifies what is meant by "right-wing". It's fairly straight forward. "conservative", meanwhile, risks drawing false associations because the term has many readings that are not related to the present context, such as "fiscal conservatism", for example.

Not only are you POV pushing to remove criticism that you don't like and replacing the related terminology with terminology that serves to obscure the meaning of the assertions made in the sources, but labeling my edit "vandalism", which is a clear misrepresentation. I suppose that you did that because you could think of no valid reason to put in the edit summary, right?--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:25, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking the two you might be well served by utilizing WP:Dispute resolution or alternatively a self-imposed temporary interaction ban. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Why would you suggest that? An editor is ignoring Talk discussion and sources in order to push a whitewashing POV obfuscating the policies promoted by the "right-wing" (or "conservative") think tanks under criticism in the sources and the article, and mischaracterizing my edits as vandalism, etc.

That is conduct on the verge of meriting a misconduct report. The notion of an interaction ban is ludicrous, and the editor in question is not engaging in a GF content dispute. Meanwhile, you are an editor involved in the underlying content dispute.

Here, more specifically, since the piped link you'd complained about has been removed, it is obvious that the concern you raised has been met, and the text revised accordingly, and that is what one would assume you'd be commenting on in this context.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 18:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

some source for "market fundamentalism"

The following are from this list of returns for the search "climate change denial", "market fundamentalism"

1. Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand, Hadyn Washington, Routledge, 2011

   "Oreskes and Connway (2010) also detail the support conservative think tanks gave these scientists and ask 'What's going on?' . The link that united the tobacco industry, conservative think tanks and scientists mentioned above is that they were implacably opposed to regulation... They felt that concern about environmental problems was questioning the ideology of laissez faire economics and free market fundamentalism."

2. This Changes Everything: Capitalism Vs. The Climate, Naomi Klein

   "That feat was accomplished in large part thank to the radical and aggresive vision that called for the creation of a single global economy based on the rules of free market fundamentalism, the very rules incubated by the right-wing think tanks at the forefront of climate change denial.

3. Global Political Ecology, Richard Peet、Paul Robbins、Michael Watts, Routledge, 2011

   "Lahsen (2004) has suggested that the science of climate change denial generally was more rooted in the "paranoid style" (the word is from Hofstader) of American politics: science and environmentalism were out to get market fundamentalism.

   
   --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Choose what you think are the main sources on climate change denial without doing these special searches for phrases attached and see what they say. That is the way to get weight - not by trying to find sources with some favored phrase in. Dmcq (talk) 18:02, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, the pedantic comments trying to dictate how I should edit are not welcome, and are "off-topic posts" that are not compliant with WP:TALK.

At present, you are ignoring sources because you don't like what they say. Two of the three books listed above are scholarly books published by academic presses, which represent highly reliable sources. The other is by a high-profile author. You have yet to make a single statement based on a source, it would seem.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 18:15, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT is part of the basis WP:Neutral point of view and the second pillar in WP:5P. Searching for sources that support what one wants to stick in confers very little weight, that is simply self-justification rather than neutral assessment of the sources. If you look at the major sources on the subject itself instead you'll have a good basis for editing rather than getting into edit wars. Dmcq (talk) 18:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

What major sources are you talking about? You have produced not a single source demonstrating that the above-sourced statements are UNDUE because they lack WEIGHT.

You are being duplicitous, because you haven't referred to a single source yet in your campaign.

The text at issue has been under discussion for some time, and you are doing nothing other than disrupting that discussion.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 19:26, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay I'll take that a request to show how to find reliable sources on a subject and figure out what they say with due weight.

The best reliable sources are books and scholarly sources that have been out for a year or so then they can be reviewed and their weight assessed. A reasonable first step is to stick 'climate change denial' into Google books and google scholar, or just direct and find the ones that look like reliable sources in the first couple of pages of returns. A bad review isn't a killer, in fact it can sometimes indicate the source is indicative of one of the major weights on the subject. Tertiary sources surveying the literature can also be a good guide to weight. The WP:OR policy talks more about this. The WP:NPOV policy talks more on weight.

Assuming we don't have a tertiary source as guide we just take those sources and their introductions and summaries will probably give an indication of overall structure and weight. These should also give an indication of what should be in the lead. The lead should summarize an article and more sources can be used in the main body but it is very unlikely they have enough weight to support the lead.

Applying this to 'climate change denial' from Google scholar you get things like 'The Oxford Handbook of Climate Change and Society By John S. Dryzek, Richard B. Norgaard, David Schlosberg', over 700 pages and not a mention of market fundamentalism. "Routledge Handbook of Climate Change and Society edited by Constance Lever-Tracy", one mention of market fundamentalism on page 250 of about 480 - and by the way that paragraph starts with 'The shared conservatism...' where you disagree with conservative being in. 'Living in Denial: Climate Change, Emotions, and Everyday Life By Kari Marie Norgaard', not a single mention again. Then we have one you found 'Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand By Haydn Washington' which has one mention on page 79 of 170. Hardly a convincing case it should be in the lead paragraphs of this article. Looking at 'Heads in the Sand' again, there was just the one mention because it was talking about 'Merchants of Doubt by Oreskes and Conway'. That book actually does have a section on market fundamentalism - but doesn't actually say anything about its application in this case except to the tobacco lobby though I guess there is implication by association.

So what is reasonable to say in the lead? Can I suggest that something from the big surveys - the Oxford and Rutledge ones would be good. For instance in the Oxford one there is a chapter on Organized climate change denial by Riley Dunlap Aaron and McRight. That sounds like it is precisely aimed at what all this talk is about. Dmcq (talk) 23:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

You continue to engage in a pedantic metadiscourse about sourcing, without actually making suggestions for improving the article based on concrete statements.

The first two sources on the list below directly contradict one of your above statements, for example, and the others are obviously relevant.

1. Acceptance of climate change isn't about ideology

   Indeed, the historians Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway, in their history of climate change denial Merchants of Doubt (Bloomsbury 2010), argue that climate change denial is rooted in “free market fundamentalism,” much as creationism is rooted in religious fundamentalism.

2. "Deniergate" spells "time's up" for anti-climate change fraudsters, Energy and Environment Management

   as well documented in 'Merchants of Doubt', the book by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway which exposes how the ideology of free market fundamentalism, aided by an over-compliant media, has skewed public understanding of tobacco, acid rain, the ozone hole, global warming and DDT.

3. HOW VESTED INTERESTS DEFEATED CLIMATE SCIENCE

   Such an interpretation probably underestimates the importance of ideology – the anti-regulatory, anti-state market fundamentalism that shapes the funding agendas of the conservative foundations.
   The corporations and the conservative foundations sought to conceal their direct involvement by funding anti–global warming organisations, such as the dozens of market fundamentalist think tanks that became a vital dimension of the American political landscape during the Reagan era and beyond, and are at the centre of the climate change denial campaign.

4. Guardian, How will everything change under climate change? (excerpt from Naomi Klein book)

   Very little, however, has been written about how market fundamentalism has, from the very first moments, systematically sabotaged our collective response to climate change.

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 03:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Searching on terms that supoort your contention does not confer weight to it. Weight is in relation to the topic 'climate change denial'. What you're doing is called confirmation bias. I was trying to explain how to avoid that and get something that follows WP:Neutral point of view. I showed how to find major sources for an article, I showed a few and named a couple as being such and pointed to an example source on this point selected without using any search terms like neoliberalism market fundamentalism or whatever. If you must put in extra search terms for a more restricted part of an article put in questioning ones like basis or reasons or ones about the general area like organisation. Dmcq (talk) 08:20, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Here for example is a biased search 'best holiday destination Bulgaria' and I get things like Looking for a bargain holiday? Head to Sunny Beach, Bulgaria, but forget Italy, Bulgaria is the best destination for cheap holiday - and I just chose Bulgaria at random. Dmcq (talk) 09:11, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

I saw the discussion at ANI. I have less of an aversion to WP:JARGON than some editors, because I think it exists for a legitimate reason. Many subjects develop precise wording to help the participants communicate. However, while these terms are appropriate within a body of text squarely associated with the relevant subject, the terms are less than helpful when used elsewhere. “Neoliberal” is a term well known in the context of a political discussion. “Market fundamentalism” is less well known, but is also a political term. Looking at the categories at the bottom of the page will provide insight. Both of those terms are in categories such as political terminology and political economy.

In contrast, this article is in categories such as climate change skepticism and denial. While there is undeniably some overlap between climate issue discussions and politics, the overlap is not so complete that it would justify the use of political jargon. I am not rejecting the notion that people involved with neoliberalism and market fundamentalism have an interest in climate issues, I am rejecting the notion that we serve our readership well by using those terms.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:27, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed; we can cover their views in NPOV fashion without using the single-word jargon terms. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:35, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree with that. If jargon words appear in a major way in the first few sources for a topic then it might be okay for the lead but even then phrasing things to be readable by a general audience is very important there. The problem with these is one has to do a search for them and the Wikipedia articles about them said they were pejorative - being jargon that's a triple whammie for the lead I believe. Dmcq (talk) 15:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, fully agree that labels tend to go offtopic, and what's needed is a simple summary: essentially, belief that; freedom and the free market need less state intervention, the science indicates that uncontrolled exploitation of nature will cause problems, therefore the science must be wrong. Next task, review and summarise sources for discussion in the body text. Slightly offtopic, an optimistic view. . . dave souza, talk 09:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

sources

FYI

• 2015 "Seepage: Climate change denial and its effect on the scientific community"

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:44, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

• 2015 Same lead author, different topic; At a very superficial read and without looking at original papers, I think this author said somewhere in the literature there are numbers that breakdown climate denial motivations between conspiracy ideation (~4%) vs free market thinking (~60%). Thought that may interest eds devoting constructive time to these articles. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I haven't yet read the second paper but I read the first one and it is an astounding paper. I literally double checked the release date to see if it was in April 1 submission. There isn't enough time to list all of the questionable claims the paper so I'll limit myself to one or two.

In section 2, the author includes this statement, "This inertia, along with the well-documented tendency to discount future losses so they seem less pertinent than immediate costs (e.g., Hardisty and Weber, 2009), further mutes people's appetite for action." I agree that it is well documented. This is fundamental economic theory. While in economics as in climate science, there are areas in which even the experts debate the facts, there is a core of statements which are agreed to by virtually all experts in the field. The time value of money, the fact that a gain or loss at a future point in time is worth less than that gain or loss at the present time is one of these truths. (Careful readers can construct artificial exceptions, but these usually illustrate the underlying truth more strongly as opposed to undermining the truth of the statement.) Are there any Wikipedia editors that seriously disagree with the concept of present value? One can certainly challenge the discount rate used and there is ample literature on open questions about the appropriate interest rate, but these are all arguments about the exact value of the interest rate, not whether the concept is fundamentally flawed.

At this point, you may be wondering why am bringing this up. The author has simply stated a well-known economic fact. I agree. However, read on to two section 3 where the author states "Scientists might think that they are not susceptible to such common errors of reasoning," (emphasis added). The author is literally labeling a fundamental economic truth as an error of reasoning. This is truly astounding.

My second point relates to uncertainty which is the core theme in this paper. As is well known, scientists often avoid making definitive statement and couch things in terms of error bars and uncertainty measures. This is often misunderstood by the public and exploited by pontificators who triumphantly but incorrectly suggest that the scientist are not certain as to their conclusions. This is a legitimate disconnect in public conversations. In my opinion the pedagogical coverage of uncertainty in the high school and even college curricula is insufficient, and many members of the public under-appreciate the role of uncertainty in science. On this general point I suspect I am in large agreement with the author who is making a similar point. Unfortunately, the author goes on to label discussions about uncertainty as “Scientific Certainty Argumentation Methods” or SCAM. Science ought to be about discussions of facts and evidence; presentation of hypotheses, designs of experiments to test hypotheses and related issues. It should not be in the business of deliberately choosing value-laden terms. The choice of that acronym is not accidental and it should be excoriated in the strongest terms.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:03, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sphilbrick, nice to know that psychological and historical analysis aligns with fundamental economic theory, perhaps you could give a link to a published source discussing this economic theory in relation to avoidance behaviour?
Re SCAM, your complaint is not against the paper under discussion, it's against William Freudenburg's "Scientific certainty argumentation methods (SCAMs): Science and the politics of doubt, Sociological Inquiry (2008) pp. 2–38, doi 10.1.1.330.1130. Perhaps you could write to that journal complaining about the pun. . dave souza, talk 17:00, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Actually, my complaint is directed at the paper under discussion. I wasn’t under the assumption that the authors invented the term. It was quite obvious that it came from elsewhere. However, the authors are responsible for using a term which has obvious connotations. They could easily have discussed the challenges of analyzing uncertainty without reference to the term. The fact that they deliberately used it means they are either abject idiots (unlikely) or trying to make a point.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for your personal assessment: perhaps the authors agreed with the point[s] made in the paper they cited. I make no claim to expertise on how to write papers on social and psychological issues. . . dave souza, talk 21:48, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

While looking for a source supporting the notion of discounting future costs and benefits, I found an article in the economist talking specifically about the issue in the context of climate change. The editorial “Is it worth it?” Specifically discusses some of the issues surrounding the well-known Stern report. As is often the case the editorial emphasizes areas where experts differ, and least unstated the implied areas where there is no difference of opinion. So, for example, it talks about the discount rate used by Stern and competing experts such as Nordhaus, Klemperer and Weitzman who would make different choices about discount rates. But that’s rather the point – not one of these experts argues that one should not discount they simply have different theories about how to choose the appropriate discount rate. (If someone really wants to get into the weeds they would argue that discounting is not the perfect solution. In fact, a better solution is utility theory but in practice no one has figured out how to satisfactorily choose utility curves, and discount rates serve as a crude but adequate surrogate in most situations. And if utility theory cannot be directly used, it lends credence to the observation made not in this article but in others that the discount rate should not be a single value but a set of values which might vary over time frames, and over scenarios.)

In fact, discounting is so basic I suspect that if the authors were explicitly asked, they’d realize that they aired in suggesting that it was an error of reasoning. They are simply wrong. I welcome anyone who can find a source supporting their position.-S Philbrick(Talk) 00:42, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Sphilbrick, think I've spotted your error. You reason that in section 2 the authors discuss a series of points, including the contributory factor of choosing a discount rate, which you describe as "a well-known economic fact", then in section 3 they say "Scientists might think that they are not susceptible to such common errors of reasoning". From that you assume that they're calling every point in section two an "error of reasoning", but that's not what they're saying: that statement refers to the summary: "In sum, uncertainty is effective as a strategy to delay action because it resonates with human tendencies towards preference for preservation of the status quo. Uncertainty arising out of perceived expert disagreement is particularly effective at generating public doubt about an issue."
Your link to The Economist highlights the point that discounting is both a well known economic technique, and a subjective decision as to the discount rate: see the point made by Ken Caldeira. The authors aren't disputing the basic technique, they refer to the subjective decision making examined in D.J. Hardisty, E.U. Weber. "Discounting future green: money versus the environment" J. Exp. Psychol. Gen., 138 (2009), pp. 329–340 pdf.
In summary, your reasoning is simply wrong: they're not referring to the principle of economic discounting as a fallacy, they refer to public uncertainty exaggerated by [wrongly] perceived expert disagreement as a fallacious basis for delay, and in building their case note psychological research on the subjective choice of discount rate. Hope that's clearer. . dave souza, talk 02:41, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I hope you are right but I wouldn’t call it an error, I’d say I made a plausible inference and it was their inability to write clearly. As I already stated, I don’t believe the authors think that discounting is an error. However, as you noted, then made some points in one section and then a subsequent section refer to such common errors of reasoning. They could use some pointers and how to effectively write. If for example someone wrote process A coupled with fact B leads to error of reasoning C, and then refers to such an error of reasoning no one would make the mistake of thinking that fact B was being identified as an error. If however you write is they did, and say process A couple with process B leads to process C, and never use the term error in the set up, then the reference to such errors is ambiguous.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:15, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Another new source: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/22/opinions/cook-techniques-climate-change-denial/ William M. Connolley (talk) 13:16, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for split of climate change skepticism

I came across these pages several days ago when searching for climate change skepticism on my favourite search engine. I was surprised that there wasn't a page for it on Wikipedia since it's a big thing. Having read through this talk page, it seems like there is an ongoing debate regarding skepticism and denialism. Without going into the details of the debate which have been done to death, I think a reasonable compromise might be reached by splitting skepticism from denial. We could split the pages in the following manner:

Climate change skepticism noting that climate change skepticism is generally seen as a form of climate change denial and psuedoskepticism. It can discuss the relationship between climate skepticism and true skepticism, and how the term has been co-opted by people who wish to dismiss the science. This article would be short enough to not need sections. Any aspects of climate skepticism that are generally relevant to denialism can be confined to....

Climate change denial discussing the relationship between the various names used to describe denial, the history of denial, denial arguments, lobbying etc. (essentially most of this page).

Ongoing care would need to be take to ensure minimal information duplication on these pages (i.e. forking) and this would need to be suitably noted in the talk pages. This would have the advantage of simplifying the information on both pages, which would make it easier to manage them, and keep them clean. At the moment the denial page is quite messy, I suspect in part because it is being used to play out the denial-skeptic argument at the same time as trying to discuss denial in general.Mozzie (talk) 14:21, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment As I mentioned on Talk:Climate change skeptic, I don't see these terms discussed as separate entities in reliable sources. They are almost always used to refer to the same thing, and are sometimes used as synonyms. Do we have any reliable sources which show a clear distinction between the two, and give us a unique definition for each label?   — Jess· Δ♥ 14:55, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Why do we have an article Global warming controversy, with two talk pages:

1. Talk:Global warming controversy
2. Talk:Climate change skeptic--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:37, 8 July 2015 (UTC)e/c

Huh? I don't follow. The latter is a redirect, not a second talk page...   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I know that. But new discussions belong at the proper talk page. I added the relevant template.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Part of the problem I suspect is activism spilling out onto several pages. I proposed this split because I thought it would be a pragmatic way to solve differences and improve Wikipedia. Bottling several issues up in one page with strong activism, and editing based on a rule (reliable sources) just makes ugly confused pages like this one that are ongoing editor battles. Separating the issues might help to separate the issues, and minimise wasting editor time going over the same issues. Mozzie (talk) 03:14, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

• Opposed Far too many RSs use the terms without specific distinguishing criteria; Still more RSs say some use the terms synonymously and other RSs say deniers try to "reframe" their views as skeptical; Those RSs that do attempt to distinguish between these terms with something akin to analyzable criteria do so as a matter of compare-and-contrast. This article should cover all of that; having done so, this article should link legitimate climate change skepticism to the article that is (or at least used to be) designated for that discussion, i.e., Global warming controversy. As for the RS coverage of illegitimate use of "skepticism", that's just another word for denial, so that belongs here also. As for which article the Climate change skepticism redir should point to, I think it should point here. Then people can read about the criteria for distinguishing between the two types of climate skepticism (the part that's true to scientific endeavor and the part that is just denial) and move on, if need be, to Global warming controversy. Alternative idea I'd be fine with changing title here to "climate change denial and skepticism", and carrying on much like we are already doing. Doing that should quell objections that the redir Climate change skepticism pointing here is intolerably biased. The objection to rename is likely to be "that suggests they are equal". No, they are not equal. Our text needs to compare-and-contrast; report RSs that provide analyzable criteria; explain that climate science skepticism is redundant (since all science is skeptical); for intellectually honest scientific skepticism, link to Global warming controversy; for the other kind of purported skepticism carry on just like we are. If the text does that, expanding the title to include both terms would be a reasonable solution, IMO. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:08, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The whole point is that there is no legitimate stance of 'skepticism' when it comes to the three basic tenets of global warming - it's happening, human activity is causing it, and it's a bad thing. Anyone saying that they have found a fault in that science either deserves a Nobel prize for finding the most amazing overlooked thing, or they are denying the existing literature. Creating a separate-reality article in which they are still right, despite all the science, makes no sense. Global warming controversy is badly named. The title seems to imply there is a controversy about global warming itself. As the article text makes clear, there is only a controversy about what to do about it, and that is mostly going on in the US where special interest groups can buy mainstream media coverage to confuse the public. Many of the references there are dated around 2006-7, so maybe it's in need of an update. The only reason this article is complicated at the moment is because a handful of people are still having trouble accepting the fact that things have moved on, and the game has been called. --Nigelj (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed Global warming controversy should be replaced with a navigation list related to the open scientific questions being subjected to the most skepticism via research and professional debate. These are the open questions flagged by IPCC. All the stuff about culture and media war "debate" or "controversy" should get axed or exported to the articles about those views, i.e., Media coverage of climate change. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• I support Mozzie's proposal. First step would be to review & update the old page, deleted some years ago. Does anyone have a copy, or a pointer? TIA, Pete Tillman (talk) 16:59, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

(@Nigekj) Your list of tenets of global warming sound as if you are trying to invoke the Ramsdorf taxonomy (trend sceptics, attribution sceptics, impact sceptics). However, it is quite possible for an individual to accept that the world is warming, agree that the cause is predominantly anthropological and agree that on balance, impacts will be negative yet still strongly disagree with some of the mitigation proposals. If you are correct that “ article text makes clear, there is only a controversy about what to do about it,” then we have some work to do because that is not close to the truth. There is substantial uncertainty about the expected temperature trend, primarily because there is substantial uncertainty regarding the climate sensitivity variable. There are quite a number of other open issues but the climate sensitivity is a big one. The reason this article is complicated is because there are many open issues in the community has not yet even agreed on the terminology for those who are questioning some aspects of climate science itself or the climate engineering proposals.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:30, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

There is a big difference between uncertainty and controversy. Uncertainty as to whether a place will be uninhabitable in 50 or 100 years, whether 2 billion or 5 billion humans will die by a certain date, whether 100 species or 200 are going extinct per day, these may be open issues, but only the most die-hard deniers will claim that these are reasons that there is a controversy about global warming. --Nigelj (talk) 17:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Your suggestion that there is no controversy about global warming is simply astounding. Have you read any of the literature? Do you need pointers to it? What is your basis for denying that a controversy exists?--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Not to True believers. Perhaps we need a new article on "CAGW as religion" -- see forex Jerry Brown's [climate science mixes with religion]. Ah, Gov. Moonbeam.... Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:19, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

You two should acquaint yourselves with WP:CIVIL: Someone puts up a proposal, I !vote, and straight away I am having my intelligence, my religion, and my mental stability abused by random people. Your tactics will not drive me away, or make me withdraw my !vote. Please focus on article content, and your own !votes, not on me personally. --Nigelj (talk) 20:30, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• oppose: There is substantial uncertainty about the expected temperature trend (and so on): indeed there is; but discussion of that belongs on the global warming page and indeed already is. So what does that leave for a "skepticism" page? All the genuine (scientific) skepticism is already covered there. All that's left over is denialism, or so it seems to me William M. Connolley (talk) 19:00, 8 July 2015 (UTC) (upgrading my comment to oppose) William M. Connolley (talk) 09:56, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:10, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

We're not fighting here over the details of "genuine (scientific) skepticism", but about the nature of it versus the fake kind that is synonymous with climate change denial. The technical distinction between these terms made by some RSs, the failure of many RSs to distinguish at all, and the way that various sides try to use the terms all should be covered in a single article.... such as this one. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• STRONGLY Disagree: this article has been a mess from day 1, and (sadly) survived 4 AfDs. What hope is there for an article that starts with a slur, then goes to mealy-mouth extremes to say: "No, we don't mean it. You nigras er, DENIALISTS are just too sensitive, and who cares what you Fringers think, anyway?"

OK, over the top, but not by much. But there is (IMO) No Hope that this will ever turn into a decent NPOV article. Better to leave it fester, and try again. Pete Tillman (talk) 20:29, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Pete vacuous venom of that sort isn't really helpful since it does not identify specific shortcomings much less any RS based logic that demonstrates existence of problems. Since you admit it's over the top, please try again? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

(upgrading my comment to oppose): PT, I don't think your comments really make sense. Your disagreement with practically everyone else is over substance, not form. Splitting the article wouldn't solve the disagreement, merely smear it out, which would help no-one William M. Connolley (talk) 09:56, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Pete,

Just so there’s no confusion, I think Wikipedia would be better off if we had an article on climate change skepticism and on denialism. Probably two articles, however, if a single article the title should not simply be climate change denialism.

When I said I agreed with WMC, I did, but I was agreeing with the observation that a discussion of uncertainty about the expected set temperature trend is on the global warming page and that’s an appropriate location for it. I haven’t formally weighed in on the proposal at the beginning of this section, because I see it as a hopeless task to accomplish. Some days I’m a pragmatist and some days I like to tilt at windmills but this one looks like a loser.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:17, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

[convenience break in Wall of Text]

• Well, I see I touched a nerve with my "vacuous venom"....  ;-] Heh. "vacuous Vicious Vermin is sous venom:, anyone? And I still can't figure out how to turn off the idiot auto-correct! [Verminous, I say]

Comments, in no particular order: we don't need anyones permission to re-create a CC Skeptic page, just the editorial muscle to get it past the inevitable AfD. A preview of abolitionist votes available here.

Yes, there will be a fight over the content, and yes, there is some relationship between CC skepticsnd deniers. But Deniers remains primarily a political pejorative, intende to isolate and denigrate the users opponents. A moments thought will determine that the pious pronouncements that "we don't mean it to be a Bad Name" are just smoke and bullshit: see Giggle test. Disappointing (but unsurprising) that the CC Denial page has virtually nothing on the politics involved. Yes, academics have politics too, and yes, it's in their peer reviewed sociological treatises. Use a bit of common sense, folks. Don't insult the intelligence of our readers! AS the present page does.

Yes, we should recreate a "CC Alarmist" page, to balance this one. Someone else can do that. Plenty of candidates for a Wall of Shame. Unlike skeptics, these clowns kill people! (by wasting resources that might otherwise save lives). Cites on RQ.

If no-one beats me to it, I'll dig up a copy of the old page, userify it, and post a link here to a draft page. Might have time this weekend, but I have a trip booked for early Tue. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

When I asked you to rephrase the vacuous venom you yourself admitted was "over the top", I meant with RS-based logic demonstrating an idea for article improvement. This last post is at least more polite, but still lacks a single tangible RS-based bit of reasoning. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:59, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

---

• Question do articles by climate change skeptics count as reliable sources? Mozzie (talk) 03:14, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Some do, some don't. Reliable sources are described in WP:RS. We should follow the guidelines in selecting reliable sources. Finding sources which satisfy the criteria in WP:RS and then saying they are not reliable because we disagree with them is against WP:NPOV. Dmcq (talk) 09:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

climate change skeptics is not a well defined term, per all the endless discussion, and so your question is ill-defined. climate change "skeptics", or climate change pseudo-skeptics, are well defined terms William M. Connolley (talk) 09:59, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

• Against a split. The two are too closely linked and not distinguished enough in the literature, such a split would be a WP:POVFORK. I used to think that climate change skeptic should redirect to global warming controversy on the basis that if they were actual skeptics it had the details they were looking for. I'm staying away from that now as skepticism is very close to denial nowadays so I'll leave that for others to argue. But I see no good reason to split this article up on that basis. Global warming controversy is the place for skeptics to look up the arguments against global warming. Dmcq (talk) 09:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

• oppose: As pointed out above, both terms are mostly used to describe the same. Besides this there is the fact that scientists are natural sceptics (unless they are not following scientific methods, or act with bad faith), thus pretty much redundant to have a niche article on something which could be explained on the article about scientists. prokaryotes (talk) 08:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• oppose: Referring to deniers as "skeptics" at all just adds to confusion. Skeptics themselves have been working hard to distinguish themselves from deniers. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy#cite_note-63 The best way to disambiguate the word "skeptic" would be to define it carefully every time it is used, or to not use it at all. When "skeptic" is used in the traditional way (normal scientific skepticism) the Wikipedia article on scientific skepticism can be linked. When it is used as a euphemism for climate change denial, then climate change denial can be linked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.198.17 (talk) 15:12, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Although I lack any authority on the matter, it does bother me that both the main article and this page strongly imply that it is impossible for any credible source to hold scientific skepticism against climate change. In fact, due to the scale of the global climate, and the inability to create small-scale climates that account for all of the variables the Earth's atmosphere is regularly exposed to, in addition to a lack of empirically collected data on past temperature trends (predictions and estimates based on condition assessments, while reliable, are still too fallible and cannot account for unreported variable environmental conditions that may result in deviations, are therefore too reliant on assumption to be accepted as definitive evidence), there is an inherent lack of reproducibility that more than justifies scientific skepticism by definition alone. If anything, the refusal to acknowledge the inherent uncertainty of large-scale scientific theory is in and of itself deeply concerning, as that is the hallmark of potential pseudoscience going unchallenged by appeal to authority and peer pressure to not even remotely suggest anything disputing the "absolute certainty" of the consensus for fear of being accused of being an "industrialist lackey" and having their professional credibility severely damaged, if not outright destroyed. 216.121.240.209 (talk) 23:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• '"STRONGLY oppose'": There is absolutely no difference between "skeptic" and "denier" in the context of climate change. 174.29.81.203 (talk) 00:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

That's an opinion, which you are entitled to hold, but you ought not to write it as if it's a universal truth, as many respected sources take a different view.--S Philbrick(Talk) 02:52, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Edit suggestion

I identified some challenges a couple sections upthread. Dave souza responded, with what I read as largely a recapitulation of my observations. I was troubled by one word, but in view of the substantial agreement I initially didn’t want to dwell on a single word. However, I see that the word was taken from the lead paragraph, so I must comment on it as I think it is not the best word choice. The second sentence currently reads:

Climate skepticism commonly means climate denialism;[3] they form an overlapping range of views, and generally have the same characteristics; both reject to a greater or lesser extent current scientific opinion on climate change.

I see two problems, one minor one more substantive. The minor point is the awkward English (more details if anyone cares). The substantive issue is the choice of the word “commonly”. I don’t believe the literature will support that the equating of the two terms can accurately be characterized as “common”. As has been discussed above some writers do so. However, doing something on occasion does not qualify as common. Of course, if a reliable source says it is common, then we have to accept it or review enough sources to make sure the usage is appropriate.

The quote in the footnote supporting the term starts off with “"Climate scepticism in the sense of climate denialism or contrarianism is not a new phenomenon”. We could discuss whether this supports the term even though it doesn’t use the term but we don’t need to. The author includes a footnote in the original article which is also included in our footnote: “ I shall use 'climate sceptics' here in the sense of 'climate deniers', although there are obvious differences between scepticism and denial”. This could hardly be clearer; while this author may use the terms interchangeably in this article she explicitly notes obvious differences which means they are not the same.

In fact, the rest of our sentence does a decent job of articulating the issues. The two terms do have an overlapping range of views. We should retain that sense and remove the opening clause which makes an inconsistent point. My suggestion follows:

Climate skepticism and climate denialism[3] form an overlapping range of views, and generally have the same characteristics; both reject to a greater or lesser extent current scientific opinion on climate change.

We might consider expanding and adding language suggesting that the two terms are sometimes used as if they are synonyms and sometimes not. I’m open to other that elaboration is necessary.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:41, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Will review and discuss this in more detail, but initially note that you've left out part of the quote from the 2010 paper as cited inline: "However, 'climate sceptic' and 'climate scepticism' were commonly used during the 'climategate' debate as meaning 'climate denier'." Everyone agrees that skepticism is not the same as denial, the issue is that "skeptic" is misused as a euphemism for denial.
That was written while the debate continued, since then there's no evidence the usage changed: on the contrary, as Deniers are not Skeptics discusses, the NYT of 10 November 2014 described "Senator James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma, a prominent skeptic of climate change" as having "gained headlines throughout his career for asserting that the science of human-caused climate change has been falsified. He is the author of “The Greatest Hoax: How the Global Warming Conspiracy Threatens Your Future.” " – the CSI point to a contemporary report describing Inhofe as “one of the leading climate change deniers in Congress", and the NYT has since agreed with them to reconsider its terminology. . . dave souza, talk 19:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

As Lewandowski (Recurrent Fury: Conspiratorial Discourse in the Blogosphere Triggered by Research on the Role of Conspiracist Ideation in Climate Denial) points out, “For example, whereas the public quickly lost interest in the “climategate” imbroglio involving scientists’ stolen e-mail correspondence in 2009 (Anderegg & Goldsmith, 2014), the opposite trend has been observed in the blogosphere which has seen increasingly more “climategate”-related content since 2009 (Lewandowsky, 2014a).” So while it may be true for a short period of time, in a small subset of the universe, that doesn’t justify the broad term “commonly”.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:44, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Aside: from the blog of a topic expert, Dr. Katharine Blackwell, "Assistant Professor of Psychology at a small liberal arts college, specializing in cognitive science and child development", the online reactions to the initial paper – "accusing Lewandowsky of running a scam, lying, and faking results in one way or another – were in themselves a treasure trove of what climate change deniers believe." When he quoted these comments in the original version of the paper you cite, the blog commentators complained and the publisher withdrew on the grounds that "“the article categorizes the behaviour of identifiable individuals within the context of psychopathological characteristics”. She comments, "the claims aren’t actually psychopathological. Believing in a conspiracy theory is not a psychological disorder, any more than a religious belief is. .... The difference is whether it’s a label they would like to have or not, but neither one is a mental disorder." In some ways pertinent to this article, but perhaps too complex to cover in a brief note. . . dave souza, talk 21:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Taking this on board, and acknowledging the awkward phrasing, I've tried adopting your suggested wording of the sentence concerned, while reorganising other aspects to separate out the initial definition from the manufactured controversy and the dispute about terminology. What to editors think of this approach? . dave souza, talk 08:25, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes it seems okay to me. I used to think the main emphasis should be on the denial machinery but I didn't quite realize the depth and extent of the psychological denial. Dmcq (talk) 10:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)