Jump to content

User talk:Kautilya3

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ashvawiki (talk | contribs) at 11:35, 28 September 2015 (New talk section: Shramana , Jainism). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Indo-Aryan peoples

Kautilya, I have enough knowledge about this subject, it's important to explain how ANI and ASI came to be as South Asia are product of ANI and ASI admixture which is known as 'Indian cline'.

It's not good to having early 20th century racial-type categorization in topic, it's out-dated. Genetics gives much more detailed understanding of the topic.

Is there any reason it was revered? Today, I added how ASI, Proto East Asia and Andamaese split with the appearance of Y-DNA CF haplogroup and later F haplogroup and it's decedents. M mtdna is oldest Haplogroup in South Asia and related to Andamanese M mtna, as are all M mtdnas in the world. However all Y-DNA AND R U mtdna in South Asia are not found in Andamanese due to their isolation after the split some 50,000 to 40,500 ybp. They are ASI related group through M mtdna.

Here is chart of splitting of Eurasians, I'll try to get this chart in Wikicommons in the future after getting permission from Reich et al but at movement it gives a basic idea on how 'Indian cline' was formed. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/11/reich1.png - The chart is from Reich et al study, Reconstruction of Indian population. Pebble101 (talk)

I understand your concern, i'll be removing ANI and ASI topic from the Indo-Aryan page atm as one can find more detailed information in Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia.
I will only add this for now - as it will give basic information about Indo-Aryan people, migration and Indo-Aryan associated haplogroup R1a1
article text

The genetic analysis of two Y chromosome variants, Hgr9 and Hgr3 provides insightful data. Microsatellite variation of Hgr9 among Iranians, Indians and Pakistanis indicate an expansion of populations to around 9000 YBP in Iran and then to 6,000 YBP in India. This migration originated in what was historically termed Elam in south-west Iran to the Indus valley, and may have been associated with the spread of Dravidian speakers from south-west Iran[1][2][3] Subsequently, the Indo-European migration into subcontinent from Sintashta culture about 4,000 ybp.[2][4][5] and the Tibeto-Burmans and Austroasiatics via the Himalayan and north-eastern borders of the subcontinent.[6]

The most frequent mtDNA haplogroups in the Indian subcontinent are M, R and U.[7]

All major Y chromosome DNA haplogroups in the subcontinent are Haplogroup F's descendant haplogroups R (mostly R2a, R2 and R1a1), L, H and J (mostly J2).[8] other minor but notable haplogroups include O3 among Tibeto-Burman speakers, O2a among Austroasiatic speakers, G and T.

Haplogroup R1a1 in particular is associated with Indo-Aryans in South Asia. In South Asia R1a1 has been observed often with high frequency in a number of demographic groups, especially among Indo-Aryans.[9][10] Its parent clade Haplogroup R1a is believed to have its origins in the South Asia or the Eurasian Steppe,[11] whereas its successor clade R1a1 has the highest frequency and time depth in South Asia, making it a possible locus of origin.[12][13][14] However, the uneven distribution of this haplogroup among South Asian castes and tribal populations makes a Central Eurasian origin of this lineage a strong possibility as well.[15][16]

References

  1. ^ Tamil Literature Society (1963), Tamil Culture, vol. 10, Academy of Tamil Culture, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... together with the evidence of archaeology would seem to suggest that the original Dravidian-speakers entered India from Iran in the fourth millennium BC ...
  2. ^ a b Namita Mukherjee, Almut Nebel, Ariella Oppenheim and Partha P. Majumder (December 2001), "High-resolution analysis of Y-chromosomal polymorphisms reveals signatures of population movements from central Asia and West Asia into India" (PDF), Journal of Genetics, 80 (3), Springer India, doi:10.1007/BF02717908, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... More recently, about 15,000-10,000 years before present (ybp), when agriculture developed in the Fertile Crescent region that extends from Israel through northern Syria to western Iran, there was another eastward wave of human migration (Cavalli-Sforza et al., 1994; Renfrew 1987), a part of which also appears to have entered India. This wave has been postulated to have brought the Dravidian languages into India (Renfrew 1987). Subsequently, the Indo-European (Aryan) language family was introduced into India about 4,000 ybp ...{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  3. ^ Dhavendra Kumar (2004), Genetic Disorders of the Indian Subcontinent, Springer, ISBN 1-4020-1215-2, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... The analysis of two Y chromosome variants, Hgr9 and Hgr3 provides interesting data (Quintan-Murci et al., 2001). Microsatellite variation of Hgr9 among Iranians, Pakistanis and Indians indicate an expansion of populations to around 9000 YBP in Iran and then to 6,000 YBP in India. This migration originated in what was historically termed Elam in south-west Iran to the Indus valley, and may have been associated with the spread of Dravidian languages from south-west Iran (Quintan-Murci et al., 2001). ...
  4. ^ Frank Raymond Allchin and George Erdosy (1995), The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia: The Emergence of Cities and States, Cambridge University Press, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... There has also been a fairly general agreement that the Proto-Indoaryan speakers at one time lived on the steppes of Central Asia and that at a certain time they moved southwards through Bactria and Afghanistan, and perhaps the Caucasus, into Iran and India-Pakistan (Burrow 1973; Harmatta 1992) ...
  5. ^ Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund (1998), High-resolution analysis of Y-chromosomal polymorphisms reveals signatures of population movements from central Asia and West Asia into India, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-15482-0, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... During the last decades intensive archaeological research in Russia and the Central Asian Republics of the former Soviet Union as well as in Pakistan and northern India has considerably enlarged our knowledge about the potential ancestors of the Indo-Aryans and their relationship with cultures in west, central and south Asia. Previous excavations in southern Russia and Central Asia could not confirm that the Eurasian steppes had once been the original home of the speakers of Indo-European language ...
  6. ^ Richard Cordaux , Gunter Weiss, Nilmani Saha and Mark Stoneking (2004), "The Northeast Indian Passageway: A Barrier or Corridor for Human Migrations?", Molecular Biology and Evolution, Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution, doi:10.1093/molbev/msh151, PMID 15128876, retrieved 2008-11-25, ... Our coalescence analysis suggests that the expansion of Tibeto-Burman speakers to northeast India most likely took place within the past 4,200 years ...{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  7. ^ Y Haplogroups of the World, 2005, McDonald
  8. ^ Y Haplogroups of the World
  9. ^ Sengupta et al. (2005)
  10. ^ Sahoo et al. (2006)
  11. ^ ISOGG 2012 Y-DNA Haplogroup R
  12. ^ Underhill, Peter A; Myres, Natalie M; Rootsi, Siiri; Metspalu, Mait; Zhivotovsky, Lev A; King, Roy J; Lin, Alice A; Chow, Cheryl-Emiliane T; Semino, Ornella; Battaglia, Vincenza; Kutuev, Ildus; Järve, Mari; Chaubey, Gyaneshwer; Ayub, Qasim; Mohyuddin, Aisha; Mehdi, S Qasim; Sengupta, Sanghamitra; Rogaev, Evgeny I; Khusnutdinova, Elza K; Pshenichnov, Andrey; Balanovsky, Oleg; Balanovska, Elena; Jeran, Nina; Augustin, Dubravka Havas; Baldovic, Marian; Herrera, Rene J; Thangaraj, Kumarasamy; Singh, Vijay; Singh, Lalji; Majumder, Partha (2009). "Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a". European Journal of Human Genetics. 18 (4): 479–84. doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.194. PMC 2987245. PMID 19888303.
  13. ^ Sharma, Swarkar; Rai, Ekta; Sharma, Prithviraj; Jena, Mamata; Singh, Shweta; Darvishi, Katayoon; Bhat, Audesh K; Bhanwer, A J S; Tiwari, Pramod Kumar; Bamezai, Rameshwar N K (2009). "The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system". Journal of Human Genetics. 54 (1): 47–55. doi:10.1038/jhg.2008.2. PMID 19158816.
  14. ^ Mirabal, Sheyla; Regueiro, Maria; Cadenas, Alicia M; Cavalli-Sforza, L Luca; Underhill, Peter A; Verbenko, Dmitry A; Limborska, Svetlana A; Herrera, Rene J (2009). "Y-Chromosome distribution within the geo-linguistic landscape of northwestern Russia". European Journal of Human Genetics. 17 (10): 1260–73. doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.6. PMC 2986641. PMID 19259129.
  15. ^ Cite error: The named reference biomedcentral.com was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  16. ^ Zhao, Zhongming; Khan, Faisal; Borkar, Minal; Herrera, Rene; Agrawal, Suraksha (2009). "Presence of three different paternal lineages among North Indians: A study of 560 Y chromosomes". Annals of Human Biology. 36 (1): 46–59. doi:10.1080/03014460802558522. PMC 2755252. PMID 19058044.
Would this be okay? it gives all basic information Pebble101 (talk)
@Pebble101: I am glad you are knowledgeable about the subject. However, you are still new to Wikipedia, and you need to better understand the policies and protocols here. First of all WP:BRD tells you that if a "bold edit" is reverted, you should discuss the matter on the article's talk page. Re-reverting constitutes edit-warring and it is frowned upon. Your contribution is not lost. It is still in the edit history, and we can go back and retrieve it after consensus is reached.
As for the matter at dispute, I have three concerns: (1) The section you are editing is not about genetics. There is a separate section for it at the bottom. So that is where any new material on genetic evidence should go. (2) The section titled "Early migrations..." is a quick summary of what people might have lived in India before the arrival of Indo-Aryans. It should not be expanded to become an entire article of its own. (3) The material you add in this section should be understandable by a non-specialist, and it should relate to people rather than DNA markers. Do you think you can do that? - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please note also that the material you removed from the first section is sourced to Basu et al (2003), except for the first sentence. I find nothing wrong with it. So please state clearly what your objection is. - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your reply, I do try to fix basic information on here as most people get their first-hand information from wikipedia before doing any major research work. Early Migrations - The current version we have covers it as "Haplogroup F and it's descendant Haplogroups" which makes up modern South-Asians from 40,000 ybp, link to F covers this. Previously existing Y-DNA haplgoroups (Pre-F Haplogroups) does not exist in South Asia anymore. M mtdna is oldest linage in South Asia, link to M covers this as well. So, we have all basics covered here that makes up modern South Asians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebble101 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry. I don't understand. I am not interested in your version yet. The old version that you overwrote [1] is sourced to Basu et al (2003). What is wrong with it? Why is there a need to change it? - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1) Y-DNA F and mtDNA-M represents the oldest linage in South Asian, as modern population are decedent of these two specific haplogroups and it's sub-clads. 2) Basu et al is good but some of those have been debunked (no mention of time-period of major migrations either) in newer studies as earliest arrivals are Adivasi F and M, we do not know what language they spoke before adopting Dravidian, Indo-European or Austro-Asiatic languages but there is 'Vedda langauge' in Sri Lanka which is linguistic isolate and they predominantly carry Haplogroup F like Adivasi tribals so they could have spoken a language related to that. 3)Rice-farming appears during Late Harrapa period and is associated with Austro-Asiatic speakers (Y-DNA O2a) in South Asia, so they are not earliest arrivals.
I have simplified the reich et al study for easier understanding in Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia, According to the study "ASI" is not found in South Asia since split happened 40,500 ybp but mtDNA-M represents this old linage in South Asia.
article text

According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of Y-DNA haplogroup F and mtDNA Haplogroup M might have originated in South Asia.[1] The presence of several haplogroup F, Haplogroup M and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.[2] Studies based on mtDNA variation have reported genetic unity across various Indian sub–populations.[3][4][5][6] Conclusions of studies based on Y Chromosome variation and Autosomal DNA variation have been varied, although many researchers argue that most of the ancestral nodes of the phylogenetic tree of all the mtDNA types originated in the subcontinent. Recent genome studies appear to show evidence in support of the notion that modern south Asians (both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians) are a hybrid population descending from two genetically divergent populations referred to as the 'Ancestral North Indians' related to western eurasians and the 'Ancestral South Indians' who are not closely related to groups outside the subcontinent. [7] [8] [8] [9][7][10] [11]

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Sengupta2006 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Kivisild, T.; Rootsi, S.; Metspalu, M.; Mastana, S.; Kaldma, K.; Parik, J.; Metspalu, E.; Adojaan, M.; Tolk, H.-V.; Stepanov, V.; Gölge, M.; Usanga, E.; Papiha, S.S.; Cinnioğlu, C.; King, R.; Cavalli-Sforza, L.; Underhill, P.A.; Villems, R. (1 February 2003). "The genetic heritage of the earliest settlers persists both in Indian tribal and caste populations". The American Journal of Human Genetics. 72 (2): 313–332. doi:10.1086/346068. PMC 379225. PMID 12536373.
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kivisild1999 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference Baig was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kumar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Trends in Molecular Anthropological Studies in India, Vikal Tripathy, A. Nirmala and B. Mohan Reddy, 2008
  7. ^ a b Moorjani, Priya; Kumarasamy Thangaraj; Nick Patterson; Alkes L. Price; Lalji Singh; David Reich (5 September 2013). "Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India". Cell. 93 (3): p422–438. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); |pages= has extra text (help)
  8. ^ a b Reich, David; Kumarasamy Thangaraj; Nick Patterson; Alkes L. Price; Lalji Singh (24 September 2009). "Reconstructing Indian Population History". Nature. 461 (7263): 489–494. doi:10.1038/nature08365. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
  9. ^ M. Phillip Endicott, Thomas P. Gilbert, Chris Stringer, Carles Lalueza-Fox, Eske Willerslev, Anders J. Hansen, Alan Cooper (2003), "The Genetic Origins of the Andaman Islanders" (PDF), American Journal of Human Genetics, 72 (1): 178–184, doi:10.1086/345487, PMC 378623, PMID 12478481, retrieved 2009-04-21, ... The HVR-1 data separate them into two lineages, identified on the Indian mainland (Bamshad et al. 2001) as M4 and M2 ... The Andamanese M2 contains two haplotypes ... developed in situ, after an early colonization ... Alternatively, it is possible that the haplotypes have become extinct in India or are present at a low frequency and have not yet been sampled, but, in each case, an early settlement of the Andaman Islands by an M2-bearing population is implied ... The Andaman M4 haplotype ... is still present among populations in India, suggesting it was subject to the late Pleistocene population expansions ...{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  10. ^ Reich, David; Thangaraj, Kumarasamy; Patterson, Nick; Price, Alkes L.; Singh, Lalji (2009). "Reconstructing Indian population history". Nature. 461 (7263): 489–94. Bibcode:2009Natur.461..489R. doi:10.1038/nature08365. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  11. ^ Reich, David; Thangaraj, Kumarasamy; Patterson, Nick; Price, Alkes L.; Singh, Lalji (2009). "Reconstructing Indian population history". Nature. 461 (7263): 489–94. Bibcode:2009Natur.461..489R. doi:10.1038/nature08365. PMC 2842210. PMID 19779445. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
This covers all basics of early migration and making of modern South Asians. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebble101 (talk • contribs)

I'll be adding this part in earliest migration in Indo-Aryan peoples.

article text

According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of Y-DNA haplogroup F and mtDNA Haplogroup M might have originated in South Asia.[1] The presence of several haplogroup F, Haplogroup M and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.[2] Studies based on mtDNA variation have reported genetic unity across various Indian sub–populations.[3][4][5][6]

It should explain basic information about earliest migration into South Asia during Paleolithic era. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pebble101 (talk • contribs)

@Pebble101:Sorry, none of your versions are as informative as the Basu et al (2003) version. They are still couched in genetic terminology and don't speak of populations. I am not sure why you are so bent on deleting the Basu-based text. You haven't answered that to my satisfaction. Please expect further objections if you replace the text. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 14:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Sengupta2006 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Kivisild, T.; Rootsi, S.; Metspalu, M.; Mastana, S.; Kaldma, K.; Parik, J.; Metspalu, E.; Adojaan, M.; Tolk, H.-V.; Stepanov, V.; Gölge, M.; Usanga, E.; Papiha, S.S.; Cinnioğlu, C.; King, R.; Cavalli-Sforza, L.; Underhill, P.A.; Villems, R. (1 February 2003). "The genetic heritage of the earliest settlers persists both in Indian tribal and caste populations". The American Journal of Human Genetics. 72 (2): 313–332. doi:10.1086/346068. PMC 379225. PMID 12536373.
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kivisild1999 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference Baig was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kumar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Trends in Molecular Anthropological Studies in India, Vikal Tripathy, A. Nirmala and B. Mohan Reddy, 2008

Please comment on Talk:Warminster Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Warminster Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Legobot (talk) 00:04, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indra's web of misrepresentations

Ah, you're reading along. I can recommen the original 1970 article.Please also read my comments at the talkpage. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am finding it tough reading. Can't even understand what he means by "apologetic". - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:02, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Helaas... Anyway, it proves again that it's good to read the original sources (but when you can't get through to it, well, ehm - just believe me! I'm a pretty cheap guru; no feas at all!) Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning 2002 Gujarat Riots 2, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Sir

Thank you for your guidence Sir. 39.47.75.200 (talk) 16:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi

Due to Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics#Undiscussed moves of articles' growth into a know-nothing mob, I feel little choice but to retire as it's clear I am not wanted. Ogress 18:17, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on Talk:Hijra

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Hijra. Legobot (talk) 00:02, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

COI editing

When I saw this edit I couldn't help but think that this would be COI editing :) —SpacemanSpiff 16:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in Indian folklore, Chanakya was the good guy that repelled the Greek invaders, and Kautilya was the bad guy that subverted Brahmanism. I am the bad guy :-) - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:14, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so، you are not a Bad Guy. HIAS (talk) 14:46, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I didn't mean it seriously. On another note, the ball is in your court on Talk:Indo-Pakistani wars and conflicts. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on Talk:Mizrahi Jews

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Mizrahi Jews. Legobot (talk) 00:02, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indra

Hi Kautilya, I actually did explain in great detail why I removed the "Appearance" section from the "Indra" wiki page. My reasoning was based on the fact that the description was based in an imperialist, racist, and (most importantly, in regards to the wiki page itself) historical revisionist analysis. I ask that you undo your changes, and remove the section. I can provide scholarly sources that would back all of what I've mentioned, if you'd like. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chanakya Volume 2 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) Those sources would be vey welcome! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Chanakya Volume 2: Welcome to Wikipedia. Please note that all content on Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. Please read through the policy pages posted on your talk page to get an understanding of Wikipedia works. You need to produce reliable sources for your claims and, once you do so, you can add the other scholarly points of view on to the pages respecting WP:DUE weight. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 12:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

De-communalising Indian history

Hi Kautilya3, I'm Abdulmc. Nice to meet you. It seems we disagree and are beginning to enter an edit war. This is of course a highly sensitive topic so let me tell you why I made the changes that I did.

The Reddy page had several statements about 'Muslim invaders'. This is a deeply damaging hangover from colonial rule where the British wrote history books in a way to divide Hindus and Muslims on the lines of religion. Therefore they paid deep attention to ensuring that it was written in a highly inflammatory manner. This framework is still being used today by the Hindutva right. Therefore the language of Muslim invaders, Hindu resistance, etc. The correct term to use is Delhi Sultanate, Mughals, etc instead of 'Muslim invaders'. Hardly anyone calls the British, Dutch, Portugese and French as 'Christian invaders'!

Also this framework is highly fallacious. It ensures that the Muslims of today are blamed for the activities of the Mughals or Delhi Sultanate. It only works to deepen hatred and hostilities and deaths between Hindus and Muslims in India. In interest of academic rigor and social peace, this framework of viewing history in communal terms should be completely eliminated. Therefore I made those edits. Kindly cooperate with me and let us work together to make history more neutral.Abdulmc (talk) 09:40, 22 September 2015 (UTC)Abdul[reply]

@Abdulmc: Welcome to Wikipedia. Please take it slow while you are still getting used to editing here. I guess you haven't looked at the Wikipedia adventure tour that was posted on your talk page. I will post another welcome message that you gives you easier links that explain how Wikipedia works. As far policies are concerned, (1) you cannot delete sourced content without achieving consensus first. See WP:RS and WP:OR. (2) when an edit gets reverted, you should not keep reinstating it without achieving consensus. So, I suggest that you self-revert the last edit until consensus is reached. There is no hurry. You can always re-make the edit after agreement is reached.
As for the issues here are concerned, as I pointed out the term "Muslim sultans" etc. are used in the sources cited. I know that the historical sources would have called them turuq, turuka or turushka. But it is not easy to explain what that term means, because all people that converted to Islam were also called turuka. We can't simply translate it as "Turk." We are still trying to figure out how to address these historical issues. See the recent edits to the page Hindu. So, for the time being, it is best to leave the Reddy page as it was, because the content is sourced and there are no aspersions cast on Muslims. There is nothing unusual about Telugu people rebelling against "Muslim invaders" who followed different language, culture and religion. That is how history works. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:20, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Abdulmc: Your edit on Telangana [2] was even worse because you simply deleted key content, claiming you were making it "neutral." If you persist in this way, you are liable to get blocked. Please be warned. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:30, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And politically, white-washing history is playing into the hands of Hindu nationalists. It is entirely counter-productive. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:32, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3: Thanks for the guidance. Indeed I am new here. I'll go through the material you've posted and familiarise myself with them. Till then i've done as you requested and removed the last revert on the Reddy page (but not on Telangana). I've done this only as we can discuss the issue and reach a consensus.
I'll go through the references and see what they say. Will also see whether any and all references can be accepted. We can then discuss the issue threadbare. I disagree with what your last statement about Telugus vs Muslim invaders who followed different language, culture, etc. The right term to use is Delhi Sultanate/Qutub Shahis/Asaf Jahis etc and not Muslim invaders. That is because it is unclear who you refer to by Muslim invaders. Is it the Sayyids (Arabs), Lodis (Turks) or the Mughals (Afghans)? They all had different cultures from each other.

Besides, as already pointed out it is a communally charged term inappropriate in the current context. Anyway, this isn't about our personal thoughts. I'll examine the source and get back to you.

Thanks for the passive-aggressive warning. What key content was deleted? I've already said what's wrong with the term "Muslim invaders". That's why it was deleted. And MK Vellodi and the other ICS officers were trained in BRITISH and not Indian systems of administration. The Indian system btw was BRITISH which it took over wholescale after Independence.
Indeed. The only whitewashing is using blanket and communal terms like Muslim invaders and Hindu resistance. It is this that truly counter-productive and I intend to see it removed wherever I find it. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by abdulmc (talk • contribs)
The problem in the Telangana edit was that you deleted the sentence "Later the region was ruled by many Muslim rulers." Simply gone! This is presumably due to your POV that any reference to "Muslim" is "communal." Yet scholars tell us that "Muslim" or "Musalamana" at best meant a jati or an endogamous ethnic group in the Indian context [3].
Replacing "Indian" by "British" is a smaller problem, but it is also misleading because it is not making it clear that the administrative system under question is the one that is prevalent in India (inherited from British of course). - Kautilya3 (talk) 11:30, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3: Using the framework of "Muslim rule over Hindus" is what is communal, not what you said. Don't waste time trying to presume my POV and simply respond to the points I am making. One of the Wiki guidelines is not to make these discussions personal, so you might do well to follow them yourself before preaching.
What is not misleading but downright false is saying that MK Vellodi and co were trained in Indian systems of administration. What might these be? The ones used by the Mughals? Princely States? The Chogyul of Sikkim which wasn't even a part of India then? The fact is that as ICS officers they were trained in the British system plain and simple and I have simply corrected a factual error.Abdulmc (talk) 11:44, 22 September 2015 (UTC)abdulmc[reply]
Please note that WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS is not a successful strategy for editing Wikipedia. - Kautilya3 (talk) 11:55, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Abdulmc: I took care of the Reddy page. But similar locutions appear on all Telugu-related pages. I suspect it is because turuk and Muslim are synonymous in Telugu and those writers would tend to use "Muslim" when they write in English. If you search for "Kakatiya Muslim" you will find a lot of hits. You are welcome to fix them all in the same way. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Chandragupta Maurya

Kautilya3 there is no proof that Chandragupta Maurya converted from Hinduism to Jainism. All the texts say that he became Jaina Muni. None of the texts say he converted his religion. It means he was Jain originally. Also the name of a Ganadhar of Tirthankara Mahavira was called Maurya. He was indeed descended from him. Why don't you give proof that Chandragupta Maurya followed Hinduism before converting to Jainism. If you can't provide proof it means Chandragupta Maurya was originally lay Jain and later in his life he became Jaina Muni. Ashvawiki (talk) 18:36, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let us keep this discussion on the article talk page. I will copy it there and respond. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:38, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Avestan

You're wrong. It doesn't matter if the article about Avestan language was referred to another article about indo-iranians in Wikipedia. Just because one article in wikipedia is referred to another in wikipedia, doesn't make them right. Your factually wrong. The word Iran is derived from Airya/Arya. So indo-aryan languages is the correct word and not indo-iranian. Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan didn't exist when Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit were spoken. Aryans lived west of the river Indus and the Hindus lived east of the river. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarena (talk • contribs) 14:46, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But who and what decides which editor is eventually right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarena (talk • contribs) 16:47, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Then both persons who revert 3 times will get suspended right? Not just one of them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarena (talk • contribs) 16:51, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Haverna: The answer to the first question is simple. Whoever is working according to Wikipedia policies is "right". So I suggest that you start reading the links to policies I posted on your welcome message, especially the "Five pillars." As for the second question, I am glad that you are beginning to do calculations as to who will get blocked. Normally, neither will. But, if you think things through, you can calculate that you can't win by edit warring. So it is best not to do it. You destroy your own reputation by doing it. And, it will come back to bite you in the long run. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 19:37, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on Talk:2015 Thalys train attack

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:2015 Thalys train attack. Legobot (talk) 00:01, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request to take a look over my addition to Cattle in religion

I added about the Quran's Surah Al-Baqarah and sacrifice of a yellow cow by Jews in the Surah under the Islam section in the article Cattle in religion. However it might not be completely up to publishing standards. If you can please do a favor and have a look upon it and correct any mistake and reword if need be. Thank you. KahnJohn27 (talk) 08:11, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@KahnJohn27: I am afraid you need better sources. One of them is a 19th century "dictionary" and the other one is saying here is the verse of Quran and it is mysterious. If you can find better sources, I can help with copy editing the text to be encyclopedic. (It has to be at a high level and give real information about what the practice and situation is within Islam.) Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 09:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3: As far as I know there's no problem with using an older source. I don't think there's any Wikipedia policy that forbids from using an old source and Thomas Hughes is a significanf authority on Islam. As for the "mysterious" part of other source it's about the exegesis of the verses. However I've written about the incident as it is in the verses. KahnJohn27 (talk) 12:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your Problem

I don't know what you're crazy obsession is with Yasin Malik and continuing to expound biased information about him and about Kashmiris and Pakistanis in general.

Furthermore, after reading your talk page, just in case you labour under this delusion: you and your people are NOT Aryan! There is no such thing. It is a myth created by Nazis and continued by Neo-Nazis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Futuremind123 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Futuremind123, welcome to Wikipedia. We welcome your contributions as long as you follow the Wikipedia policies. Please try to master them, and if you need any help or suggestions, please feel free to ask. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't see any obsession, at least not at Kautilya's part. Kautilya3, please tell us: did the Nazi's say that you're an Aryan? How old are you? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:55, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, don't worry Joshua. Let us not bite the newbies. I hope Futuremind123 will be able to contribute constructively. We need some good Kashmiris (or pro-Kashmiris) around here. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:11, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Where are the Wikipedia policies? I have noticed that almost all of the controversial statements on the Kashmir dispute are referenced with Indian media sources. What about Pakistani sources? Kashmiri sources? or best of all objective western sources such as the BBC?!!!Futuremind123 (talk) 22:31, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Futuremind123: The links to the policies were posted on your talk page in the welcome message. They are also pointed out to you whenever we revert or comment on your edits.
We don't make distinctions between Indian/Pakistani/Western sources. Trying to be nationalistic or racist about sources is frowned upon. People contribute with whatever sources they have available. You are welcome to bring other sources if you need them. News media can be used for only news, not analysis or opinions. To cite analysis/opinions, you need to find scholarly sources. See RS. - Kautilya3 (talk) 22:59, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's nice to hear the teacher at work here :) Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:55, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clementin-Ojha

Nice find and very interesting read. Thanks. Abecedare (talk) 17:06, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Shramana , Jainism

The paragraph in Shramana is showing wrong information about Jainism. Every Jaina Scriptures starts as said by Gautama Ganadhar to the question asked by King Shrenika, Just like Buddhist scriptures begin as I heard, that is Ananda heard the Buddha. Like Valmiki Ramayana begins as said but Narada to Valmiki. The latest manuscript of Valmiki is after 14th century AD. Then is Valmiki Ramayana invented in after 14th century AD. The same way every Jaina scriptures is as passed by from Acharyas before. In Ancient times Jains ruled in the south. Chalukyas, Gangas, Rashtrakutas, Hoysalas, early pallavas, were all Jains. Jains don't have to fear the Brahmanas at that time. In that time the Brahmanic God's like Krishna and Shiva are in hell according to Jainism. Brahmanas knew about this at that time. About the Varna system it is always said that Kshatriyas are above Brahmanas According to Jainism. According to Hinduism Brahmanas are above Kshatriyas. Jaina point is already shown in Kalpasutra in the story of Tirthankara Mahavira. So delete that paragraph. 

Ashvawiki (talk) 11:35, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kautilya3&oldid=683138898"