Talk:Islamic banking and finance

COI

Per the box at the top of this page, this article has been edited by a person with a conflict of interest. I have placed a COI tag on the article. Independent editors need to review the article for NPOV and sourcing. Once the article is clean, the tag can be removed. Please leave a note here, if you do that cleaning and remove the tag. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:24, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

could you provide more detail? --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:38, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

see case at COIN case here, and updated link in connected contributor tag above

Requested move 14 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Islamic banking and finance. Jenks24 (talk) 15:40, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

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Islamic banking → Islamic finance – Much of this article is broader in scope than just banking. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 08:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC) BoogaLouie (talk) 02:26, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Examples: Islamic_banking#Other_Sharia-compliant_financing,
Islamic_banking#Takaful_.28Islamic_insurance.29,

Anyone agree?

BoogaLouie (talk) 02:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: the content and sections not realating to this article can be modified/deleted or move elsewhere e.g. Islamic economics. Khestwol (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

But there is so much overlap. Profit-sharing accounts of Islamic Banks are similar to conventional stock mutual funds, which are not banking, except that Investment banks are involved in issuing stocks, bonds ...

In essence, investment banks are a bridge between large enterprises and the investor. Their main roles are to advise businesses and governments on how to meet their financial challenges and to help them procure financing, whether it be from stock offerings, bond issues or derivative products. (from http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/111114/whats-role-investment-bank.asp#ixzz3fsmicI00

As an alternative, we could change the name to Islamic finance and banking --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:11, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I hope everyone agrees Islamic banking is a subset of Islamic finance. (see: Since the modern birth of Islamic banking in the 1970s in Egypt, it has expanded rapidly across the globe. ... Islamic finance has spread beyond commercial banks, and now spans investment banks, insurance companies, as well as investment (e.g. asset management) and financial companies (e.g. leasing). The development of new products, such as sukuks (Islamic bonds), has also broadened the range of products available. - from Is Islamic Banking Good for Growth? Patrick Imam and Kangni Kpodar).
Islamic finance currently redirects to Islamic Banking. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:25, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Can't this article be split into 2 articles in that case? In that way the current title "Islamic banking" will be kept, but we will also have a new article "Islamic finance". Khestwol (talk) 16:35, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Sure it can be, but with all the overlap wouldn't it be better to change the name to Islamic finance or Islamic finance and banking? --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:10, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Here is an example: http://www.citibank.com/uae/corporate/markets_banking/islamic_banking.htm The title is "Islamic banking" but then it says: "We have provided Islamic finance solutions to our cliens for over three decades, and played an instrumental role in the development of the industry." Note it lists "Structured Investments", and "Sukuk" (which are bonds, not savings accounts). It's investment banking not just commercial banking. Does it belong in Islamic Banking or Islamic Finance? --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Another problem. Try googling something like "Islamic banking differs from Islamic finance". Good luck finding anything useful. --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:47, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

BoogaLouie: Your alternative solution ("Islamic finance and banking") is good, but I suggest the wording for the title as "Islamic banking and finance". This phrase appear more often in RS. Khestwol (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment made having not read the above so apols. I just wanted to observe that, in page searches the word part "bank" was found 228 times while the word part "financ" was found 95 times. However in a sets and subsets way of thinking banking can be considered as a part of finance. In a general websearch the phrase "banking and finance" gave a spanking "About 44,700,000 results". "Banking" on its own only gets seven times as many results. GregKaye 17:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support move to "Islamic banking and finance". GregKaye has convinced me. Also, Google Books search gets about 1,280 results for "Islamic banking and finance" and about 2,410 resuls for "Islamic finance". So "Islamic banking and finance", as a phrase, is common enough in usage, and it covers the scope of this article well. Khestwol (talk) 19:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Alright, Islamic banking and finance it is. I'll wait a short time longer for any other comments. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:05, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

islamicfinance.com is not a reliable source

Just noting it needs to be removed/replaced. --Ronz (talk) 17:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

what is the background of its unreliability? --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:05, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. Websites are not deemed reliable unless we've evidence that they are, not the reverse. --Ronz (talk) 19:18, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

This is bordering on the uncivil. You have pronounced islamicfinance.com "not a realiable source". What leads you to think it is unreliable? This is a straightforward question. Please do not say you "don't understand" it. --BoogaLouie (talk) 00:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Please WP:FOC. "Websites are not deemed reliable unless we've evidence that they are, not the reverse." Perhaps we need to expand WP:RS a bit to make this clearer? Why should I believe that it's reliable? It's self-published by someone looking for publicity who was unable to make any case whatsoever for it's reliability. --Ronz (talk) 14:49, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

That's better. Back to the question: why cannot information from islamicfinance.com be included with the qualifier "according to the Islamic Finance Industry website islamicfinance.com" ?

It's self-published by someone looking for publicity who was unable to make any case whatsoever for it's reliability

Well here is what its homepage says:

IslamicFinance.com is an authoritative platform for the Islamic Finance industry recognised by the World Bank and IMF Library as a leading organisation within the Sharia compliant banking and finance industry. IslamicFinance.com and Sukuk.com are initiatives for the development of the Sharia compliant financial sector [1] by means of free access to a comprehensive Sukuk database [2], market news [3], trends and industry standards as well as a database of qualified industry professionals and services firms.

I'll say this, if "It's self-published by someone looking for publicity", they sure have a lot of time, money and connections! --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:58, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

You could raise the issue at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and see what other editors think. Nearly all of the articles are by a single author, Naveed Mohammed, which puts it in blog territory, and there doesn't appear to be an editor or editorial board, both of which are strikes against reliability, but not conclusively.Dialectric (talk) 15:48, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Naveed Mohammed is the guy from the COI sukuk dispute you were in. Now I get it. Despite his attitude I will try Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard ... when I have time. I think adding "according to the Islamic Finance Industry website islamicfinance.com" or "according to Islamic finance activist Naveed Mohammed", ought to cover the problem. --17:13, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

sources in article from islamicfinance.com

I think this is all:

• As of 2014, sharia compliant financial institutions represented approximately 1% of total world assets.
• While secular historians and Islamic modernists see Islamic Banking as a modern phenomenon, revivalists like Mohammed Naveed insist it is "as old as the religion itself with its principles primarily derived from the Quran".
• ... following the collapse of Lehman Brothers, Islamic institutions were impacted from drops in valuation of real estate and private equity, two segments heavily invested by Islamic firms.
• ''Sukuk, plural of صك Sakk, is the Arabic name for financial certificates that share some similarities with conventional bonds hence are also commonly referred to as Islamic Bonds. A major difference between conventional bonds and sukuk is the structure of sukuk removes interest based elements which is replaced by an asset based income structure using most typically Ijara or Wakala contracts. Similarities are found at the issuance stage where Sukuk issuance
• According to data published by the Islamic Financial Services Board, total outstanding sukuk as of end of 2014 was $294 Billion, of which $188 Billion was from Asia, and 95.5 Billion from the countries of the Gulf Cooperation Council.

--BoogaLouie (talk) 17:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Hope to change the Sukuk part with something better. --17:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

deletion of list of apparently non-notable institutions in Islamic banking

I'm contesting Ronz deletion of a list of the "most prominent" research and training institutions "exclusively devoted to Islamic economics and finance", drawn up by one Muhammad Akram Khan in his book What Is Wrong with Islamic Economics?: Analysing the Present State and ...
In the west a lot of people don't know much about who's who in "Islamic economics and finance". And the source used is NOT promoting Islamic economics and finance. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
[pasted from Ronz talkpage]

So you want a list of non-notable institutions there? Start a discussion on the talk page. Is it possible to get a better source? --Ronz (talk) 20:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Well the goal is notable not non-notable. What's wrong with the source? It's fairly academic and no-nonsense. (Here is the source: What Is Wrong with Islamic Economics?: Analysing the Present State and ... By Muhammad Akram Khan) --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:59, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I didn't recognize the publisher. Extremely high-priced academic books. OK.

The author's expertise isn't what I'd hoped, but I'm not sure what is available when it comes to the subject matter.

What is the context, as I cannot access the page?

If the institutions are notable, please demonstrate it rather than trying to reverse the burden. --Ronz (talk) 14:59, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, let me get this straight. The source is an almost 500 page long detailed examination of Islamic economics and finance by one Muhammad Akran Khan,

"The author's expertise isn't what I'd hoped."
The author self-identifies as the "former deputy auditor General of Pakistan (until 2003)and Chief Resident Auditor, UN Peacekeeping Missions (2003-2007)". He also identifies himself as having "been actively involved in thinking about, writing about and advocating Islamic economics as a distinct branch of knowledge for over four decades." (p.xiv)

As to whether the author is some kind of a shill for Islamic economics note what he has to say here: "However, over the last decade, my thinking has gradually moved away from mainstream thinking on the subject." (p.xiv)

and here: "The entire effort in the name of Islamic finance requires rethinking on the criteria of economic efficiency and risk mitigation. In the name of Islamic finance, Muslims have devised a mechanism of banking which does exactly what conventional banks are doing but in more inefficient and riskier ways." (p.xvi)

"What is the context, as I cannot access the page?"
The book is on available on google books. It is straightforward to access at: https://books.google.com/books?id=Fr36Gd1X_rcC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=what+is+wrong+with+islamic+economics+1.2.7+Research+and+Training+Institutions%22&source=bl&ots=QokRprg9bC&sig=MwJYfsI81iigDjFZ_HLWY7qlKfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIwKbi44TvxgIVECiICh0Y3QJY#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20wrong%20with%20islamic%20economics%201.2.7%20Research%20and%20Training%20Institutions%22&f=false

On page 10 of the book "1.2.7 Research and Training Institutions" the author writes: "There are now several research and training institutions exclusively devoted to Islamic economics and finance. A list of the most prominent ones is a follows in random order:" before listing the institutions that Ronz deleted from the article. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I put it to you that if every deletionist went through wikipedia deleting text on the grounds you have and then telling editors "please demonstrate [notability] rather than trying to reverse the burden", there wouldn't be much left! Nobody would have time for this!--BoogaLouie (talk) 15:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Please WP:FOC.

What we don't have near enough time for is managing all the SOAP problems.

Thanks for explaining what's on page 10. Let's add it back (adding any internal links that exist) and keep any additional institutions from being added without similar sourcing. --Ronz (talk) 17:23, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

unsourced, needs sourcing

The following was added and is currently unsourced WP:OR Jytdog (talk) 15:51, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Islamic financial product holding

According to the World Islamic Banking Competitiveness Report 2013–14 by EY, Islamic banking product holding globally is significantly lower (2.1) than the class leading average of 4.9. This low product holding may be due to several factors which include expensive and complex financial products, a failure to pass on meaningful returns to savers, distorted regulatory and tax incentives, and perhaps a disconnect with the real economy.

From a technology perspective, complex and expensive products can be avoided when a bank is operating on a functionally rich system which supports all Islamic banking lines of business. Now that Islamic banking is established there is a growing expectation from customers to experience the same level of service as conventional banking products. It is therefore essential that the solution is sufficiently agile to launch the right new products quickly and easily (thus keeping the costs down and passing these on to their customers), offering banks the control to create products themselves through a product builder tool.

mostly unsourced and promotional

The following was added and has promotional, NPOV language and needs sourcing:

The large population of unbanked Muslims presents a significant opportunity for the Islamic banking sector. A recent opinion piece by Temenos explains that an estimated 72% of people living in Muslim-majority countries can be defined as unbanked, because they shy away from financial services that do not conform to their faith. Research by IDC suggests that of the world’s approximately 1.7 billion people who live below the poverty line, 44% reside in Muslim countries. While conventional microfinance institutions have succeeded in reaching impoverished people worldwide, the vast majority of Muslims across the globe refrain from using their products because the element of interest is considered unacceptable to Sharia. According to market studies commissioned by IFC, in Algeria and Jordan approximately 20% of the poor cite religious reasons for not seeking conventional microfinance, while in Yemen and Syria, this percentage rises to 40%. In a survey by research institution CGAP, local practitioners and key informants found similar trends in Indonesia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Palestinian territories, and also in the Muslim majority areas of India, Sri Lanka, Brunei, Cambodia and the Philippines.

The CGAP survey also revealed that global Islamic microfinance supply is very limited and concentrated in only a few countries (80% of the 380,000 clients of Islamic microfinance worldwide are in Bangladesh, Indonesia and Afghanistan). Moreover, Islamic microfinance does not exceed more than 0.05% of total microfinance outreach. In the Arab territories microfinance institutions that have been in the market for seven to ten years typically only reach between 2,000-7,000 active borrowers using Islamic microfinance. In direct contrast, microfinance institutions of similar age operating in the same region reach tens and hundreds of thousands active borrowers using conventional microfinance.If an effective business model could be achieved, there are millions of people who could benefit from Islamic microfinance. This presents a fantastic opportunity for both new local banks and more established players who would like to enter the market.

References

Jytdog (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

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Missing content about Shia's version of Islamic Banking

I will use content from Banking in Iran (and many Iran economy related articles) that I have edited over years in order to make this article more complete (as per WP guidelines about completeness). 69.125.116.243 (talk) 23:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Table under "Industry >size/location" gives WP:undue weight to one source. Iran is ranked 1st in most other cited sources (including Moody's & Reuters). 69.125.116.243 (talk) 14:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Non-muslim reference

There is a reference to a story about a Malaysian bank with a reference. This reference points to a completely different story. Also, the link does not work. It should point to http://www.dawn.com/news/394844/govt-accused-of-fudging-figures-poverty-reduction instead. I could not find an article on the net with this story, so I doubt this reference has any value. I suggest to delete it and replace it with a better reference. Lafeber (talk) 19:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)