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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 87.252.229.3 (talk) at 19:27, 27 November 2015 (→‎Your opinion? 2). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Turkey Support of ISIS

Infobox should have Turkey as supported of ISIS, there are undeniable evidences:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/links-between-turkey-isis-now-195700510.html http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/18/turkey-cut-islamic-state-supply-lines-erdogan-isis Dafranca (talk) 20:11, 19 November 2015 (UTC) http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/19/turkeys-informal-isis-support 179.105.82.13 (talk) 16:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You received no response, and below you a separate discussion took place about whether Turkey should be listed under support of Kurds, somehow the deccision was made to continue listing Turkey as a Kurdish support. This article like so much of wikipedia when it comes to anything controversial in geopolitics, its essentially laughable and worthless pro-USA propaganda. Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Qatar are at the very least NOT in favor of the Kurds, and a strong case can be made to list all 3 states as being more or less with ISIS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.45.52.222 (talk) 04:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Douma massacre page, call for input...

2015 Douma market air strikes, call for input/edits to get article in shape. Rename to 2015 Douma market massacre?

Turkey on same side as the Kurds?

Erdogan's "air force has mostly bombed the Kurds" rather than ISIS, according to "The Economist". Why are they on the same side in the infobox? Esn (talk) 03:42, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They're in the "coalition", though, and separation with a line should be enough. Other groups in the same columns have fought as well (FSA, Nusra, etc.). FunkMonk (talk) 09:40, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is actually happening should take precedence over what is theoretically happening. Turkey supports the Sunni rebels and opposes the Syrian Kurds. Esn (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So you'll remove Turkey from the coalition? FunkMonk (talk) 16:29, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As little sense as it makes, it makes less sense to remove Turkey from the coalition it is officially part of. I suggest we throw in a footnote and leave Turkey in column 4. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:53, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on which Kurds - the infographic here is pretty good at explaining a complex situation. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33690060 Legacypac (talk) 23:31, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's at least find a solution that does not involve splitting the coalition. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey and PKK are not allies, but opponents. Turkey and YPG, are not allies. Rojava and Turkey are not allies either. YPG has close ties with PKK, a lot of the YPG people, are saying that they are the same people, and it is from the conflict with Turkey that they have gained their experience. PKK and Turkey are opponents for 40 years now. In addition even now, Turkey is attacking PKK in Iraq and Turkey and PKK is attacking Turkey, in Turkey. It is POV to add Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK and Turkey in the same alliance. I will post a few images that show the, imprisoned in Turkey, leader and founder of PKK in banners, flags and houses of the YPG.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/files/live/sites/almonitor/files/images/almpics/2013/10/ypgocalan.jpg http://www.davidmeseguer.com/wp-content/uploads/Asayis2.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8b9sdEVnfow/VYv9x7L-HFI/AAAAAAAAASI/jy5hvwXb1Ko/s1600/ku3.jpg.

Rojava is YPG, BF is YPG plus FSA, PKK is PKK, so there are not allies with Turkey. Adding Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK and Turkey as allies, will find, neither Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK and their sources, nor, the Turkish government and its sources, to agree with.

You can add the European and North American countries plus Australia in the same side with Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK as well as FSA, but from there and on you need to check more, about who to add, and its relation with them Ron1978 (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Now it became even more POV than before, since in the same alliance a part have being named Democratic forces, with allies all the Sunni Islamic organizations, and in the same alliance you also find PKK and Turkey, which are not allies but opponents. I suggest the following:

In one column to add the NPF and its allies, something which is clear. In another to add the Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK-Iraqi Kurdistan. Keep on mind that those, are allies neither with the Islamic organizations nor the Turks. In another the FSA and its allies. FSA has some Islamic allies. In another the US-led coalition. If you prefer to add the coalition in the same side with Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK-Iraqi Kurdistan, then it is NPOV only if it contains the countries that are allies with and not opponents. In another any Islamic groups that are not allies with the FSA. In another Isis.

Keep on mind, that the main combatants are the NPF, the Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK-Iraqi Kurdistan, the FSA, the Islamic groups and Isis. Those are the ones that is NPOV to have the infobox based on them. Ron1978 (talk) 00:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I count 6 columns in that suggestion. That is too many. Forget that Turkey and Kurds in Turkey are fighting. In the context of the SYRIAN CIVIL WAR Turkey is in the NATO/EU American led group. That group is fighting against ISIL and (politically) Assad. Most of the NATO/EU support has been coordinated with the Kurds. So we have it right, within the context of a complex situation. Legacypac (talk) 06:04, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Turkey has openly admitted to intentionally shelling the YPG in Syria, acc. to the BBC. You're making it seem like Turkey is only fighting the PKK in Turkey, when in fact they are attacking U.S. allied Kurds in Syria. DylanLacey (talk) 12:54, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am just suggesting the 6 columns based on what is going on. If anyone else agree on that, you can tell it here and then we can proceed. From there and onwards, anyone can add anything that he/she wants, with the appropriate sources. DylanLacey you are right that Turkey has shelled the YPG and that BBC said it. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34645462 I haven't disagreed with that. I have just said that Turkey is at war with PKK, I haven't denied anything else. Both you and everyone else, are welcome to add any sources claiming anything, in the case Ron1978 (talk) 16:36, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The template lists them PYD & Turkey as allies, but in fact Turkish Army have targeted PYD positions in Syria. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-hits-pyd-twice-for-crossing-euphrates-pm.aspx?pageID=238&nID=90385&NewsCatID=352 Kavas But historically and as in Iraq, Peshmerga is an ally of Turkey. (talk) 23:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A fifth column should be formed to exclude the CJTF–OIR from the Rojava in the Main belligerents table, and to exlude world leaders from being listed under Rojava in the Commanders and leaders table. -Dominator1453 (talk) 05:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Including Turkey and the Kurds in the same column is the height of absurdity; however, adding a fifth column is not the answer as the infobox is complicated enough as it is. DylanLacey (talk) 08:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Turkey is fighting the Kurds in Iraq, not in Syria, so no, it isn't that absurd. They're good at playing divide and conquer with the Kurds and Arabs. The Kurds are not an unified group in any way, they have many internal conflicts. FunkMonk (talk) 13:08, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Counting Iran's casualties

Perhaps someone with more knowledge could shed some light on this situation. Currently, the infobox displays the number of Iranian KIA as 146. However, this excludes the approximately 385 Afghan and Pakistani troops who died fighting for the IRGC. How, exactly, should we categorize the Afghan and Pakistani fighters? They appear to be in a similar situation to the French Foreign Legion, and so should count as part of the Iranian military:

  • They get paid salaries by the Iranian military. Specifically they get between $500 to $1,000 a month, plus naturalization papers.
  • They undergo training in Iran, and are equipped by the IRGC.
  • They are led by IRGC officers.
  • They wear something like a uniform, even though their uniforms usually don't have IRGC insignia.
  • Some organizations (such as the Levantine Group and Washington Institute) flat-out refer to the two "auxiliary brigades" (Fatimiyun brigade [Afghans] and Zaynabiyun brigade [Pakistanis]) as IRGC formations/Iranian operatives.
  • On the other hand, sometimes (but not always) Iran denies that the Afghans are IRGC members, and they're apparently not considered citizens at the times of their deaths.
  • On the other other hand, they're still given state funerals involving uniformed IRGC personnel.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/31/world/meast/syria-afghan-fighter/ http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/shiite-combat-casualties-show-the-depth-of-irans-involvement-in-syria
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/irans-afghan-shiite-fighters-in-syria
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSkrFNBXAAAxnT6.jpg:large

So? Should the number of Iranian military KIA be listed as 146+ or 531+?-Nihlus1 (talk) 08:35, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They are equipped, trained, payed and sometimes led by the IRGC, but they are not organisationally part of the IRGC. Some have even identified them to be now part of Hezbollah Afghanistan [1]. Also, most reliable sources when pointing out IRGC dead they are referring to the Iranians and not the non-Iranians who are talked about in a separate capacity. Based on all this plus the overall vagueness, Iranian military dead need to be separate from the other non-Iranians. EkoGraf (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 01:50, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Syrian Civil War → War in Syria – There are at least three international interventions in Syria, why we call it a civil war? Jenda H. (talk) 09:36, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2000-07-01/civil-wars-and-foreign-powers-outside-intervention-intrastate
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rebel groups

Introduction section was edited to make article misleading. Introoduction part should describe the nature of the conflict and oposing forces. The information about opositioon was deleted on 1st November and introduction only describes Government forces. The follwing section should be reincluded into intrduction:

The armed opposition consists of various groups that were either formed during the course of the conflict or joined from abroad. In the north-west of the country, the main opposition faction is the al-Qaeda-affiliated al-Nusra Front allied with numerous other smaller Islamist groups, some of which operate under the umbrella of the Free Syrian Army (FSA).[1] The designation of the FSA by the West as a moderate opposition faction allows it, under the CIA-run programmes,[2][3][4] to receive sophisticated weaponry and other military support from the U.S. and some Gulf countries that effectively increases the total fighting capacity of the Islamist rebels.[5][6] In the east, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a jihadist militant group originating from Iraq, made rapid military gains in both Syria and Iraq. ISIL eventually came into conflict with other rebels, especially with Al-Nusra, leaders of which did not want to pledge allegiance to ISIL. By July 2014, ISIL controlled a third of Syria's territory and most of its oil and gas production, thus establishing itself as the principal anti-government force.[7] As of 2015, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are openly backing the Army of Conquest, an umbrella rebel group that reportedly includes an al-Qaeda linked al-Nusra Front and another Salafi coalition known as Ahrar ash-Sham, and Faylaq Al-Sham, a coalition of Muslim Brotherhood-linked rebel groups.[8][9][10] Also, in the north-east, local Kurdish militias such as the YPG have taken up arms and have fought with both rebel Islamist factions[11] and government loyalists.[12]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.70.4.126 (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2015‎ (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "FSA brigade 'joins al-Qaeda group' in Syria - Al Jazeera English". aljazeera.com. Retrieved 21 October 2015.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference larger was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference covert was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference trim was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Nabih Bulos (22 September 2015). "US-trained Division 30 rebels 'betray US and hand weapons over to al-Qaeda's affiliate in Syria'". The Telegraph. London.
  6. ^ "Syria rebels and TOW missiles - Business Insider – Saudi Arabia just replenished Syrian rebels with one of the most effective weapons against the Assad regime". businessinsider.com. Retrieved 21 October 2015.
  7. ^ Patrick Cockburn. Isis consolidates
  8. ^ Kim Sengupta (12 May 2015). "Turkey and Saudi Arabia alarm the West by backing Islamist extremists the Americans had bombed in Syria". The Independent. London.
  9. ^ "Gulf allies and ‘Army of Conquest’". Al-Ahram Weekly. 28 May 2015.
  10. ^ "'Army of Conquest' rebel alliance pressures Syria regime". Yahoo News. 28 April 2015.
  11. ^ Cite error: The named reference fr-kurdes-chassent-des-jihadistes was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  12. ^ Cite error: The named reference pydkills was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Update Summary Box

Harper is no longer Prime Minister of Canada. It should be updated to Justin Trudeau — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.3.149 (talk) 11:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done Jp16103 (talk) 16:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion ?

Please read the article and express your opinion, is there any grounds to consider these facts as supporting IS? Thank. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html

in addition http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/turkey-has-spent-years-allowing-jihadist-groups-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-shooting-a6747161.html
http://www.infowars.com/former-nato-commander-turkey-is-supporting-isis/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.252.229.3 (talk) 12:34, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2015

There is credible information regarding the list of allies ISIS has. Turkey should be listed as an ally towards ISIS, Turkey has been purchasing all of the oil ISIS is able to capture or produce. Mark Van Muur (talk) 02:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2015

Turkey has allies within the listed group of oppositions, including Saudi Arabia. It is a known fact. Mark Van Muur (talk) 02:03, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion? 2

new event - http://www.euronews.com/2015/11/27/turkey-detains-journalists-who-allege-army-lorries-carried-weapons-for-isil/ 

I still can't find the original Turkish article, in Euronews article said about "intelligence agency MIT trucks carrying weapons"...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.252.229.3 (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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