This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Erich von Manstein article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Erich von Manstein article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Archives:1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 90 days
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First though - was it really necessary to attck my IP, after I already had appologized for not notecing that I wasn't logged in ? And the warring warning not warranted ! I reverted back the text, since no explination was given to the rejection.
I have attempted to improve what's necessary - Hitler and OKH chose von Mansteins plan, not Halders. There were no further strategical changes to von Manstein's plan. Of cource matters as "which division here and there, or which officers that should lead the attacks" were not made up by von Manstein. But the main strategical plan, to both make an attack that remainded of the Schlieffen-plan and to cross the Ardennes was von Manstein's. I still oppose the formulation "He was one of the planners of Fall Gelb (Case Yellow), an offensive through the Ardennes during the invasion of France in 1940." Fall Gelb/Case Yellow isn't importaint, this name came from Halder (who as cheif of the OKH-staff, held the position that mostly remainded about how the old German Imperial army had been strategically lead during WW1). But several versions was rejected by Hitler. But through von Rundstedt, von Manstein's plan got to Hitler. There is much to say about how and why Hitler chose von Manstein's strategy, but Hitler did chose von Manstein's strategy in the end. For this article Halder's affect to the plan is next to none. And I do then reffer to the overall strategy. (More importaint than Halder, would be what and who that inspired him. Like Guderian, von Tresckow and possibly von Rundstedt).
We have safe well written sources from William L Shirer to Mungo Melvin and Guido Knopp. And the result of the battle of France cannot be disregarded from, depending of point of view, it was astonishing or horrific. Overwhealming. Something not even the Germans themselves could believe. But von Manstein found all the weakness in the French defence stategy (which de Gaulle also had done, by the way) Boeing720 (talk) 20:17, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that it's fair to say that Manstein inspired or originated Sickelschnitt in the lede, and that can be expanded to mention the refinement of the plan done by others after he left Army Group A in the mainbody.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, first only - I have never used any specific terminology like "Fall Gelb" or "Sickelschnitt", and I have no perticular suggestion what to call it. Secondly, it was far from obvious to choose von Mantein's stategy at the offensive. But a series of events led to the choice of von Manstein's strategy. (Including the officer that was shot down in Belgium etc, but the Why ? reg. choice of von Manstein's strategy, doesn't belong in the lead, I feel). And I'm strictly talking about the basic strategy behind the offensive, only. We could debate what inspired von Manstein (like Guderians ideas of how to use panzer troups, discussions with von Trescow and von Rundstedt etc) but fact remains. The basic strategy as presented to, and eventually used by Hitler, "belongs" to von Manstein. Article currently states "He was one of the planners of Fall Gelb (Case Yellow),.." - if "planner" includes the refinement during March and April 1940, then I feel lots of unnecessary stuff becomes included, for a lead. How about changing the centance to
suggestion - "After May 1940, he become famous as the strategist behind the large German offensive in the west, although he didn't participate himself in the Battle of France during its imperative initial phase" - or something like that ?
I have removed your new section Nazism and the "New Order" in Russia. The sourcing is not very good; we have no way of knowing who wrote the article at the Jewish Virtual Library or what sources they used, so I don't think I would consider it a reliable source in this instance. You cite one sentence to "Carver, p231", which is inadequate. Book sources require full author name, title of the book, ISBN number, name of publisher, location of publisher. The last sentence had no source at all. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looking closer at your edit, I see that it was copied word-for-word from the source material at Jewish Virtual Library, and therefore is a copyright violation. I have left more information on your talk page as to why it is not okay to do that. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well for instance according to Swedish law atleast three centances can be used. For non-commercial use even a few pages. But I actually made some rephrasing, and had done even more so, if I first had not read the Trial of Erich von Manstein article, and there noted that some parts was copyed letter by letter from the Erich von Manstein article. I don't by who though. But that article has two main contributers, of which You are one. You may say, "Yes but that was within this Wikipedia". That may be so (?). But from a pure moral aspect - and from the perspective of the article credentials, which many contributers feels are importaint - then I humbly would say that it's seldom wise to teach one thing, but doing the opposite.
You seem to dislike not only von Manstein, but me aswell. This is not the other way around. For instance I think the "Trial of von Manstein" is good reading. And well done by its authors. I only had to point out that Paget [at 1948]was a King's Council, KC. This I've lerned through BBC and ITV, is importaint in England and Wales. Around 13% of all currently active barristers recieve this title. Barristers are the only ones that are allowed to plead in a court, while soliciters help their clients during interrogations and prepare the case for a barrister. Unlike soliciters, barristers can be serving a client in one case but serve the crown (as prosecutor) in another case. I think perticulary British readers can react againt "lawyer" (In Scotland advocates are used insted, but I'm not familiar with those.)
I would never stand up for changes in an article like von Manstein, without having a good knowlidge about what I contribute to. The reason I had a look at the article was simply a BBC-documentary about the so called "phoney war", battle of France - and von Manstein. But I've previously read f.i. Shirer "Fall & Rise", Bullock "Hitler en studie i tyranni" (its Swedish title, sorry) , Churchill's annual books of the war (for which he recieved Nobel's prize in litterature) and more modern stuff as Knopp ("Hitler's Henchmen" and "SS - tool of evil"), HH Kirst "20th of July" (which is a sourced novel). I've read pretty much of WW2, and the most mentioned of Hitler's generals either are Rommel or von Manstein. The article must reflect the truth, as far as we can come. I've also read some more military stuff, and here von Manstein also occures, like no other general in the war. And I also do not see every general in black or white. It's typical American to ignore other perspectives. The "Who are the bad guyes ?" -perspective, if I so may label it. But Wikipedia must stand above such things, and hence also former enemies ought to be given a fair article. And I find it interesting that a Jewish webb page doesn't think of him as a Hitler or a Himmler. To so lightly removing an interesting view & source [it build on other sources], must be questioned. And similar contence can be found elsewhere. Why on earth would Winston Churchill else stand up for him ? The BBC-documantary suggested that he was (decided to become) prosecuted only due to Stalin's wishes. After his release he helped the new Germany and its Bundeswehr to become a part of NATO. And general Hans Speidel even become chief of the entire alliance. Until his death in 1973, von Manstein was a popular person, also among his former enemies. Boeing720 (talk) 11:58, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've also noticed that this article once has been feutured, so good reading is as step down. Anyone that can explain this ? Boeing720 (talk) 12:02, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Prose in Wikipedia is available for use under the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license (CC-BY-SA) license. This means that prose is available for re-use, as long as it is properly attributed. How we do this is to specify the source of the prose in the edit summary when the material is moved. The Trial of Erich von Manstein was created using material from this article, so the edit summary when that article was created reads "Create article using content from main article". The edit summary for the removal of the content from the main article reads "Remove the majority of the content to new article: Trial of Erich von Manstein". In addition, templates were placed on the talk page of each article to provide documentation and attribution. The templates appear at the top of each talk page, right below the wikiproject templates.
Regarding copyright law, we have to follow the laws of the United States, as that's the country where the servers are located for this wiki. The rules are quite strict under United States law. There's more information at Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing and Wikipedia:Copyright violations.
Regarding this article's status as a former featured article, it was promoted to Featured Article in 2004, when standards were much lower, and was demoted in 2006, when Featured Article standards were beginning to be raised. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:33, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should attempt to make the article featured again then, according to the new standard ? And we could perhaps start with his Surname/Family name/Last name ? You cannot compare a name given at birth (I know Erich was adopted, but I hope we atleast can agree on that) with the honnourific system in the UK. In a sense "von Manstein" is honnourific, since the German "von" like French "de", Dutch "van" or "van der" or Scandinavian "av" or "af", indicates a noblemen family. However it is a part of the name and is inherited from ones parents. Today the nobleman system doesn't exist as it used to. Such surenames has nothing to do with honnourific appointment in the UK, like "Sir". (I'm not an expert on British knighthood, best to add.) But "von" is indeed included in, a part of, the family name. Boeing720 (talk) 04:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What about f.i. Marco van Basten, should he be referred to as "Basten" only ? Generally speaking. To Diannaa, the name is no big deal as I see it, but it's not to be compared with British knighthood. More importaint - I'm rather tired of this article now. But whatever You or I think about this military man, we cannot disregard from the fact that Hitler eventually "bought" his basic idea of how to make the offensive in the west in 1940. The result also came down to the old and conservative French generals. (And Your efforts in the trial article seriously is very well done.) Boeing720 (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Dutch 'van' is not used in the same way as German 'von', it is not generally a marker of nobility and it is never omitted. See the German Wikipedia article on Manstein, which uses the honorific the first time the name is mentioned, and then omits it throughout. Martijn Meijering (talk) 17:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Anti-Semite?
The current version of the article states: "there is no clear evidence that Manstein objected to the racial policy of Nazi Germany". Not only is this claim, as stated in the article, based on the fact anti-Semitism was common throughout Europe in those times, but I have a source here in which Ulrich de Mazière, at the 2:54 minute mark, says: "Manstein was not a Nazi. Not at all. There were irreconcilable differences between Hitler and Manstein, on both sides. But in the tradition in which he was educated he felt he had to do his duty. You may condemn him as a failure or you may see his behavior as the outcome of tradition in a historical context. He belonged to a generation of generals who were brought up in the tradition of a 1000-year-old empire." I think we should reformulate the current wording. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 00:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that it is too strongly worded. It's not the version that passed GA. The version that passed GA can be viewed here: Previous revision of Erich von Manstein. The content was added since that time and I was disinclined to insist on its removal. There's previous discussion on this topic at Talk:Erich von Manstein/Archive 4. Please consider posting a suggested wording for the section, or perhaps we could revert back to the version that passed GA (for this one paragraph). -- Diannaa (talk) 01:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
While Manstein only argued with Hitler on military factors and his memoirs ignore political questions, he's views concerning the racial policies of Nazi Germany have been the subject of speculation. Upon hearing of the Severity Order of Reichenau issued by Manstein, Bernd Freytag von Loringhoven, a friend and colleague, exclaimed: "I can't conceive of that. To me, that ins't Manstein." People like historian Wolfram Wette, on the other hand, argue there is no clear evidence that Manstein objected to the racial policies of his country.
I think it's too mildly worded; we know Manstein did nothing to stop the killings by the Einsatzgruppen in his area, and mulitple sources tell the story about the wristwatches. I'd rather go with the prose from the version that passed GA, which has a lot more detail. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:07, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We should probably also mention that Manstein took the highly unusual step of protesting the expulsion and discrimination of serving Jewish officers and veterans in the early years of Naizsm, though not a ban on appointing new Jewish officers. This got him into trouble. We should also mention that his protest may have been partially motivated by the fact that it affected two Jewish relatives. Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Jonas, the old version is very much the same as the present version. What I am suggesting is that the material added since the GA review be removed. Regarding Jewish officers, on page 66-68 of Melvin, it says that he protested that there was to be a requirement for pure Aryan descent for soldiers, and suggested in writing that they instead be honour bound by conviction and behavior alone (he was the only officer to oppose this clause). -- Diannaa (talk) 14:24, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Diannaa, now I'm very confused! I started this new section because I felt "there is no clear evidence that Manstein objected to the racial policy of Nazi Germany" was too strong a wording and that it should be reformulated. And since the particular part in question is virtually the same in the GA-version as it is now, how is removing information adding since then going to help? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 13:16, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't mean to be unclear. My opinion is that we should not over-emphasise his antisemitism, because he was not strongly antisemitic. The section could be made shorter, perhaps by using the version from when the article passed GA. But your suggested wording is too short, and leaves out too much detail. I have no objection to the removal of the phrase "there is no clear evidence that Manstein objected to the racial policy of Nazi Germany". -- Diannaa (talk) 15:20, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Manstein opposed the introduction of the "Aryan paragraph" into the army for two reasons: losing good German officers and fear of his own ancestry.
A letter was sent in 1934 from Manstein to Beck about losing potentially good German officers because their ancestry might not be "Aryan", for the full text see Erich Von Manstein: Hitler's Master Strategist, Benoît Lemay pp. 34-35).
Regarding his own possible Jewish ancestry, Lemay writes: "Without ever being completely certain, Manstein himself worried that his great-great grandfather Lewi could have been a rabbinical leader in Warsaw." Although a great-great grandfather would not have made Manstein be considered "non-Aryan", his own ancestry possibly played a part in his refusal to introduce the "Aryan paragraph" into the army (same book pp. 36-37).--Mahia Zatrung (talk) 00:27, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The way you worded it was to say "Lemay believes the most probable reason why Manstein refused to introduce the "Aryan paragraph" into the army was due to his own fear that he had Jewish ancestry", and Lemay does not actually say that. What LeMay says is that the most likely reason Manstein objected to the Aryan paragraph was to protect not himself but his two grand-nephews, who were members or the Reichswehr and were both Mischlinge. This information is on the bottom of page 36. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've added into the article: "Despite adhering to National Socialism racial ideology, Manstein was the only Reichswehr officer who opposed the idea of introducing the "Aryan paragraph" into the armed forces; he personally sent a letter in 1934 to General Ludwig Beck protesting in the defense that it would result in losing good German officers, how much his fears about his own possible Jewish ancestry also contributed to this defiance will never be certain."
"Manstein was the only Reichswehr officer who opposed the introduction of the Aryan paragraph into the armed forces; in 1934 he sent a letter of protest to General Beck, commenting that anyone who had volunteered to serve in the armed forces had already proven their worth and should not be expelled even if their ancestry was not completely "Aryan". Lemay speculates Manstein may have been hostile to the induction of it to protect his two grandnephews who were classified as Mischlinge but were already serving in the Reichswehr. Although it cannot be made for certain, he may have also been concerned about the possibility that he himself had distant Jewish ancestry."
No, that would not be an improvement, in fact it is not as good. You're using semicolons to string together material that stands alone better as independent sentences. This makes the sentences too long, unwieldy, and more difficult to understand, because the material you are combining is on slightly different topics. Simple, direct prose is what we are looking for. "Although it cannot be made for certain" is not grammatically correct. "hostile to the induction of it" is not grammatically correct. There's no reason to put Aryan in scare quotes. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Battle of Kursk not one of the largest tank battles, the largest
Whoever wrote this has the Battle of Kursk wrong, it isn't one of the largest tank battles in history it is the largest tank battle in history.
Much of what was written about the battle of Prokhorovka is now known to be a myth. The story put forward by Soviet historians was that of two large tank forces colliding, with the Soviets annihilating the Germans, though with heavy losses to their own forces. The truth is that the Germans badly defeated the Soviets, mainly due to Soviet ineptitude, while suffering small losses themselves overall, though with severe losses in some units. In particular the Germans lost very few tanks. Martijn Meijering (talk) 10:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wehrmachtbericht report
I reverted to prior version, which is IMO superior: "Eight mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht: 11, 12 and 31 October 1941; 19 and 20 May 1942; 2 July 1942; 20 March 1943; 4 August 1943."
The section itself was citing from the OKW propaganda report, the Wehrmachtbericht. This appears to be either WP:OR or extensive quoting from a WP:Primary source. In either case, the section is citing verbatim (including in German) a piece of propagana that has no informative value; all such reports were approved by the Reich Propaganda Ministry and were meant solely to instill optimism in the German population.
Sample of the text removed:
The troops of the Army and the Waffen-SS, under the command of Field Marshal von Manstein, in excellent cooperation with units of the Luftwaffe under the supreme command of Field Marshal von Richthofen, during the German counter-offensive between the Donets and the Dnieper, which led to the re-conquest of the city Kharkov and Bielgorod, inflicted heavy losses in men and material to the enemy.
Per WP:BRD, editors are not supposed to reinstate a contentious edit, while the discussion is ongoing on the Talk page. I would recommend letting consensus develop instead, as you have suggested on my Talk page: User_talk:K.e.coffman#Wehrmachtbericht, and go from there. WP:Consensus applies to both removal and addition of content, as I understand it. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed it. I think the material should stay out, as it consists of OKW press releases; it's Nazi propaganda. — Diannaa (talk) 19:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So, I have been watching this unfold over the day. MisterBee1966, your high handed attitude does not serve you well...repeatedly restoring the content that two different established users took out and calling their edits vandalism to boot is definitely a no-no. So be warned that a block might be looming if you insist in continuing your behaviour. I have undone your last edit; restore it again, but at your own peril. All involved parties are invited to hash out a consensus here. Lectonar (talk) 20:02, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, the Wehrmachtbericht was no more propaganda than equivalent Allied broadcasts. I fail to see why they cannot be included with the proviso that they are noted as being such. These mentions are equivalent to someone being mentioned in dispatches, and are therefore notable information about the subject. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:14, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Would you please give us an example of a Wikipedia biography about an Allied top commander who has a radio mention listed prominently along with his 'Decorations and awards'? Poeticbenttalk03:44, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One can always use more propaganda! Photo of smiling Russian soldier wearing helmet, with rifle, 1942. US government material (public domain). (Image of a war-time U.S. propaganda poster added to lighten the mood. The American propagandists did not quite get it right: the file description notes that "the soldier is wearing the obsolescent French-style Adrian helmet, which was already being replaced by the iconic Ssh-39 and 40s".). K.e.coffman (talk) 05:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why these Wehrmachtberichte here, on a page dedicated to one German top general? And why these specific three reports and not some more about Leningrad or Operation Zitadelle, and why not also some Soviet reports? Don't be limited to one general, be bold; all top generals' pages should have some, and, please, invade World War II page with an inundation of German, English, American and Russian propaganda material. The presentation of these Wehrmachtberichte could be warranted in an opus so deep and detailed that the publishing of any crap of primary source may be justified. This page is not such a work. Any encyclopedic page is not. Carlotm (talk) 04:28, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
