Talk:Immigration and crime in Germany

Possible rename and inclusion of other European attacks

Perhaps we could generalize this article a bit further and have it encompass attacks across Europe known to be committed by asylum-seekers let in during the European migrant crisis? It is to my knowledge that some of the perpetrators in the November 2015 Paris attacks were asylum-seekers (or disguised themselves as asylum-seekers), so that article could be listed. Just a suggestion. Parsley Man (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I think there's enough on the topic for this article to be valid - Germany has by far the highest number of immigrants of all European countries. Immigration and crime in France and/or Immigration and crime in Europe should be created and include the info you mention. Many criminals pose as refugees or migrant workers. Jim Michael (talk) 07:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Split out by immigration group and cause

The article as of now only describes a possible link between immigration and crime, failing to mention that many of these fears are mainly associated with particular groups of immigrants, which can also be split out in economic migrants, refugees, seasonal workers, etc etc.

A recent report by Pew Research may be of interest for this.

Europeans Fear Wave of Refugees Will Mean More Terrorism, Fewer Jobs

Pieceofmetalwork (talk) 20:17, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

General scope - possible merge

Looking at Immigration and crime, it seems as though Germany is one of the only countries with an article focusing on the link between Immigration and crime. Almost every country has crime coming from immigrants - including the United States, which immigrant crime is focused in Immigration to the United States#Crime. Why not merge this article into Crime in Germany with a section titled Immigrant criminality (similar to Crime in Switzerland#Immigrant criminality), or merge this article into Immigration to Germany with a section titled Crime (similar to Immigration to Norway#Crime or Immigration to the United States#Crime)? When is the proper time to create a separate article focusing on the link of immigration and crime? —SomeoneNamedDerek (talk) 16:37, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

The word "or" in your post shows the problem: It is related to both articles, but is a phenomenon that wouldn't only fit in one of the articles you named. Also there is by far enough material to justify a new article. It will probably just take some time to evaluate it.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I did say "or", because I don't seem to see any problem with the Crime section being placed in the Immigration to the United States article instead of the Crime in the United States article. A search for "immigrant" in the latter article produces zero results. What justifies that aspect? If there is enough material for a new article just talking about the connection between immigration and crime, I think the article should be renamed as "Immigration criminality in Germany" or "Immigrant crime in Germany" (similar to Crime in Switzerland#Immigrant criminality). The current title could be considered misleading. However, at the current state that the article is in right now, I think it's best to merge this article into Immigration to Germany OR Crime in Germany, depending on the consensus. —SomeoneNamedDerek (talk) 20:29, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, as I wrote I wouldn't support this proposal, it would be much more constructive if we give the article some time and wait if it will grow.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:42, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Agreed this could be expanded to wider geographic areas, as crimes, terrorist attacks, and terrorist style attacks by immigrants and children of recent immigrants such a Major Hassan and Anwar al Awlaki who have made international headlines, and some major crimes by persons of Muslim heritage such as the McDonalds munich shooter and the machete mass stabber who nevertheless have no direct links to religious belief, or membership in terrorist organizations as an obvious motive but otherwise are indistinguishable from major terrorist attacks. This is a good place to put such non-jihad attacks as there are always editors who routinely AFD major atrocities which receive international publicity as non-notable and delete them. An even wider topic are ethnic minorities or occupied territories such as Palestinians and Uyghurs who routinely make headlines with atrocity attacks in the name of nationalist justice. Sometimes nation states use ethnic immigrants or minorities to carry out clandestine warfare using personal quarrels and mental illness as cover stories to cover up what are actually terrorist attacks. It makes it difficult to note such attacks when so many editors bury mass atrocities and high profile murders as "routine" and erase them with AFDs Bachcell (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Merkel responds

twitter Conflict News BREAKING: German Chancellor Angela Merkel says refugees carrying out attacks 'mock the country that took them in' - @AP Bachcell (talk) 12:54, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Gatestone Institute

Gatestone Institute:
During the first six months of 2016, migrants committed 142,500 crimes, according to the Federal Criminal Police Office. This is equivalent to 780 crimes committed by migrants every day, an increase of nearly 40% over 2015. The data includes only those crimes in which a suspect has been caught. --89.204.153.124 (talk) 18:21, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Added this, thank you.--Gerry1214 (talk) 19:44, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

That info is useless when the the number of additional "immigrants" is not also mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:45:5960:F4DC:179:25E7:E64E:2D2B (talk) 22:35, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I don't think it is useless, but surely facts about the total number of immigrants in the recent time should be also added. I'm going to see what I can do.--Gerry1214 (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Bad sources, biased article, should be brought in line with the german language equivalent of this article

German language equivalent: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BCchtlingskrise_in_Deutschland_ab_2015

Gatestone institute and Breitbart should not be used as sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.64.50.131 (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Surely this is not the "equivalent". I recommend to re-read the topic. Gatestone Institute refers among others to a Bundeskriminalamt source.--Gerry1214 (talk) 19:52, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

The equivalent to this article on the German Wikipedia is here.

And yes, this English article is extremely biased. Even though it states a supposed ambiguity on its matter in the first place it is only followed by doubtful third-party number games and a list of crimes to point fingers on immigrants as such. Based on which facts or analysis? Please do take a look at the references of this article, they're only taken out of newspapers, not even a link the official criminal statistics of the BKA, let alone a study about this subject.

The German Wikipedia entry, on the other hand, is quoting reliable sources and depicts more accurately the relationship between immigration and crime.

For those reasons I invoke the 'POV' and 'unreliable sources' templates.

~ Spielkalb (talk) 23:00, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

This article exists since several month; discussions at its time of creation can be found above, and its topic was discussed back then, not only today when you discovered it. For these reasons, please refer to the previous discussions first. If you want to add sources, feel free to do so. The sources used are all compliant to WP:RS. No guideline says that an article needs to refer to certain statistics. You may add content if you like, but to come in as a new user and stick two templates on top of an article leads us nowhere. Above that, the German article equivalent was "Ausländerkriminalität in Deutschland". It doesn't exist. The equivalent to the German article "Ausländerkriminalität" is Immigration and crime, so you are definitely wrong. And no arguments for the alleged "biasing" were mentioned by you, just your personal opinion which one may share or not. For that I'm reverting your edit.--Gerry1214 (talk) 23:40, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree, this is a highly POV article. I've restored the tags. Toddst1 (talk) 23:45, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh you did? And I reverted it because no factual argument was given by you.--Gerry1214 (talk) 23:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

You've got a clear consensus here that it's biased. That's enough, you should revert. Toddst1 (talk) 23:47, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Again, name a single argument before sticking templates.--Gerry1214 (talk) 23:48, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

There are highly biased statements throughout the article. For example,

. 46% of all immigrants who came from the Maghreb states went on to commit crimes in the state.[9]

The use of the word "all" paints the entire group. Gerry is clearly an outlier with a POV here. Toddst1 (talk) 23:59, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Article name

I think the name of the article itself is highly biased (among many other things). The article appears to be about crimes committed by immigrants, but the title assumes a correlation. Toddst1 (talk) 23:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Ownership

This is truly a mess and appears to be WP:OWNed by one editor to the point that he is preventing anyone from even questioning whether the article is biased by adding tags when there is a clear consensus for such above. Toddst1 (talk) 23:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

I do not own any article. But an experienced user as you should know that it's recommended to use the talk page before sticking templates, as many aspects were often discussed before. But some users, especially some brandnew accounts, seem to have accidentally discovered the philosopher's stone here today. There are users that work here longer, so it's a question of respect and style how to join them.--Gerry1214 (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2016 (UTC)