Talk:Holodomor

Ukrainian Genocide of 1932-33

This is the most widely-used name for the genocide today. (AlexanderShatolv (talk) 17:46, 30 September 2016 (UTC))

A statement by a band new account without a proper analysis of references is not really credible.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely not a common phrasing, highly POV. "Holodomor" has a nationalist flavor; "Famine of 1932-33 in the Ukraine" would be a truly NPOV phrasing. Nearly 1 million people died in Kazakhstan and more in other parts of Russia. "Genocide" does not describe this event. Carrite (talk) 01:21, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

That reflects nothing other than your opinion. RS treat it as a serious genocide topic, whether you like it or not. It doesn't seem that you've cultivated your sense of taste beyond your personal taste. Given that you've been around Wikipedia for a long time, you know that talk pages are not for your political advocacy. Given, also, that you've neither been involved with the editing of this article, nor any form of discussion of this article's content on this talk page, I suggest that you familiarise yourself as to why this, and surrounding articles, are on the ARBEE sanctions list... --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:58, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

The Holodomor is officially recognised as a genocide. Stalin murdered more people than anyone in history. (AlexanderShatolv (talk) 13:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC))

It is recognized by a handful of countries and not recognized by other countries.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:20, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Please read the article, familiarise yourself with the scholarly debate, and read through the talk page archives before making such proclamations. It is an area of dispute as to whether it was genocide or not. No editor's personal opinion is of consequence, and you're using this talk page as a soapbox. Thank you for your attention. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Only Russia denies that the genocide in Ukraine was intentional. (AlexanderShatolv (talk) 11:56, 5 November 2016 (UTC))

This is bullshit. Stop soapboxing and do something useful.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:58, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

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Russia cant deny a genocide which did not take place. There was no Genocide and actually Russia is not the only country that rejects the Thesis that this was a genocide. Israel for example take the line that this was only a Famine which was ait and abet by the Soviet Government just like the Government of Great Britain did that during the Famine in Ireland in 1845-1852.--SBC Guy (talk) 18:23, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Sources please.Xx236 (talk) 11:58, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

It was a crime against humanity but not a genocide of Ukrainians. Israel reject the Thesis that the Soviet Famine of 1932/1933 which killed not only ethnic Ukrainians was a genocide.--SBC Guy (talk) 18:59, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Enough WP:SOAP, SBC Guy. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:34, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

I promote nothing there is no consensus that the Holodomor was a genocide.--SBC Guy (talk) 10:05, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

What do you mean, "I promote nothing"? You don't seem to be aware of the fact that you've countered your own argument, as "There is no consensus that the Holodomor was a genocide" can just as well be met with "there is no consensus that the Holodomor was not a genocide." There is serious debate over the issue as attested to by high profile historians, and damning evidence. Prior perestroika, this famine was not even acknowledged as having taken place by the Soviet Union... so, yes, you're not only promoting your POV, but are pushing it with edits such as this. You also appear keen to tell an entirely different version of other events than what is attested to by reliable sources when you try to refactor content like this. Every editor is entitled to have their own opinion on any given subject, but we are WP:HERE to ensure as best we can that articles reflect what reliable sources have to say (whether we personally agree or not). Wikipedia is not your vehicle for promoting what you believe to be the "Truth". --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Closing discussion initiated by banned User:HarveyCarter.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Largest genocide? Was the Holodomor the largest single genocide in history? (2A00:23C4:6388:7300:D543:BE5C:72B6:62DE (talk) 08:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)) See List of genocides by death toll. It is currently second, with estimated casualties of between 1,800,000 and 7,500,000 people. The first is the Holocaust, with estimated casualties of between 4,200,000 and 11,000,000 people. Both are relatively small in comparison to the World War II casualties. Estimated to between 65,000,000 and 85,000,000 million people. Dimadick (talk) 10:25, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Alternate names

It is not usually known as the Holodomor in the Western world. (Marrsly (talk) 12:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC))

It's usually referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide or the Soviet Genocide in Ukraine. (2A00:23C4:638F:5000:45E5:4437:80D3:D2CF (talk) 17:02, 6 February 2017 (UTC))

If you live in a part of the western world where the Holodomor is discussed you'll find it is called the Holodomor. Although I'm British, I live in Winnipeg, Canada, home to a huge number of ethnic Ukrainians. It is called the Holodomor here. And it is called the Holodomor specifically because it was not a natural famine, and none of the survivors want Russian propagandists implying it was a natural famine. Holodomor means an artificial famine, which is what it was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.71.169.56 (talk) 05:06, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

While that may be the common term among some in the Ukrainian diaspora, it is not the common term in English. It was chosen because of its similarity (in English) to the term "Holocaust," which is why it is controversial. TFD (talk) 07:00, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Misuse of the Davies & Wheatcroft source for POV

Currently in the article, the "Genocide question" section kicks off by using an early Conquest claim that he believed the famine to be a "deliberate act of mass murder" and then uses a quote by Davies and Wheatcroft to seemingly confirm this assessment since they believed rapid industrialization to be an underlying cause of the famine. However, in the same article Davies and Wheatcroft make it clear that they do not support the idea that the famine was "deliberate":

"However, we have found no evidence, either direct or indirect, that Stalin sought deliberately to starve the peasants. The top-secret decisions of the Politburo, endorsed by Stalin, never hint at a policy of deliberate starvation."

Additionally, the same article points out that Conquest himself no longer holds the view that the famine was intentionally caused or "genocidal", but rather policy decisions contributed to exasperating it:

"Our view of Stalin and the famine is close to that of Robert Conquest, who would earlier have been considered the champion of the argument that Stalin had intentionally caused the famine and had acted in a genocidal manner. In 2003, Dr Conquest wrote to us explaining that he does not hold the view that 'Stalin purposefully inflicted the 1933 famine. No. What I argue is that with the resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put "Soviet interest" other than feeding the starving first - thus consciously abetting it'."

To use both of these people to make the claim that the famine was a "deliberate act of mass murder" seems dishonest. In light of the content of the source actually used, perhaps it would be appropriate to clean the section up to make the ideas of the scholars quoted clearer? Aerdil (talk) 21:57, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

That view still supports the idea that the Holodomor was a genocide. (2A00:23C4:638F:5000:45E5:4437:80D3:D2CF (talk) 13:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC))

Source revision

Ludo Martens, in his book "Un autre regard sur Staline", states that Thomas Walker (also known as Robert Green), the reporter who first "discovered" the famine while visiting Ukraine in 1934, did not actually visit the country at all. The pictures he used in Heart's Chicago American 25th of February's (1935) front page were not even from that period. The picture with the dead horse is, for example, from the First World War. Furthermore, he used other pictures from 1922 too. Thomas Walker arrived in the USSR on the 12th of October of 1934, stayed in Moscow from the 13th until the 18th and then he traveled to Manchuria. He got there on the 25h of October of 1934.

Douglas Tottle discovered that in 1934, William Randolph Hearst contacted Adolf Hitler. During this period, Hitler had already began an anticommunist propaganda based on the "Ukranian genocide".

The german book "Muss Russland hungern?" written in 1935 by Dr. Ewald Ammende and backed by the nazis, contained some of the same pictures that Thomas Walker had used in his Chicago American front page. Some of the same ones that weren't even from that time. Ammende had worked in the Volga region in 1913. During the Russian civil war, he sided with the pro-Germans and was against the bolshevik revolution. This book was then re-edited in 1984 under Reagan's government called "Human Life in Russia".

The Great Famine in Ukraine: The Unknown Holocaust, published in 1983, was also revised by Douglas Tottle who discovered that most of the pictures were actually from 1922.

All these sources have been used and are being used constantly (even in this article) up until today to prove the existence of this "genocide".

In the 1983 campaign of the 50th anniversary of the "genocide", Reagan asked James E. Mace and Walter Dushnyk to write a book related to the topic: "50 years ago: the famine holocaust in Ukraine". This book gives the notorious number of 7,500,000 people killed in the "genocide", based on the calculation of the increasing population before the colectivization (2,36% a year) in relation to the population in 1926 and then in 1939. One doesn't have to be a genius to see that this calculation has no scientific value. Even so, the 7,500,000 deaths are constantly used as an official number when referring to the "genocide".

All this information that was once nothing more than propaganda has been continuously modified and thus stagnated in society for the last 80 years. I believe it would be interesting to revise most of the sources in order to give a more objective point of view on the subject.Engalazillo (talk) 11:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)