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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sonrisas1 (talk | contribs) at 12:50, 1 January 2018 (→‎Protected edit request on 31 December 2017). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Glad this page was created

I have thought of creating it before but decided not to due to reduced sources. Now it has become global trending topic on Twitter, has made it to national news and most politicans have felt the need to comment on it there is no reason not to have an article: The Tabarnia movement is a reality. There is a lot that can be included here included rationale, demographics, the charnego issue and elections etc. Sonrisas1 (talk) 14:11, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]


I have to strongly disagree with the fact of stating that it is a satirical political project it is as serious as it can be, and it would be a reality if the indenpendentist process does not stop. We want to remain Spanish and all this separatist movement is making us unhappier and poorer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.9.158.13 (talk) 20:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure the picture is correct

Some municipalities which have constitutionalist majorities are shown as having pro-independence majority. The picture seems taken from pro-independence twitter propaganda so should be taken with caution. Sonrisas1 (talk) 15:32, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Which ones? --Panotxa (talk) 17:56, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Panotxa L'Arboc, Banyeres del Penedes, Cubelles, Cunit, Bellvei etc. among others.Sonrisas1 (talk) 18:39, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As Darth vader 92 is a catalan wiki user, I'll point him your concerns, and note it in commons. Thanks --Panotxa (talk) 18:53, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments placed, and while the map is not changed, better remove it. --Panotxa (talk) 19:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, tanks. I'll check and correct it. It's not taken from tweeter,I just forgot some Garraf municipalities. Greetings.--Darth vader 92 (talk) 09:48, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done! I think it's all right now, can you check it? Thank you Sonrisas1.--Darth vader 92 (talk) 09:49, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Darth vader 92 Thanks! Can you send me the link? Or put it up yourself.Sonrisas1 (talk) 17:27, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just updated a new version of the file.--Darth vader 92 (talk) 21:29, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tabarnia does not exist

This term has been coined by the people behind www.bcnisnotcat.es website. Yesterday it became a trending topic in tweeter. That's all about it. Filiprino (talk) 00:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Freddy Hill (talk) 03:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC)I beg to differ. Tabarnia may not exist as a geographical entity - yet. But it clearly exists as a concept. Many concepts deserve an entry in Wikipedia. The question is, is the concept of Tabarnia pervasive enough/important enough/trendy enough to deserve an entry? I'd say, the jury is out, but it's very possible that Tabarnia may be remembered in history as the idea, the concept that will have turned the tide of Catalan secessionism. Or altenatively, the last stand of Catalan constitutionalism. In either case, it may become of historical importance. I vote to keep it for a while.[reply]

Catalan countries do not exist either but they have a pretty extensive article on Wikipedia. Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:09, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletions

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... (it is indeed becoming a very important subject in Spain as time passes by. Interest by very many people is clearly shown by 115155 votes in support of Tabarnia registered at Change.org at 0149 CET, 0049 UTC on Thursday, 28 December, 2017) --87.218.61.98 (talk) 00:37, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... (your reason here) --

Freddy Hill (talk) 03:16, 28 December 2017 (UTC)Tabarnia may not exist as a geographical entity - yet. But it clearly exists as a concept. Many concepts deserve an entry in Wikipedia. The question is, is the concept of Tabarnia pervasive enough/important enough/trendy enough to deserve an entry? I'd say, the jury is out, but it's very possible that Tabarnia may be remembered in history as the idea, the concept that will have turned the tide of Catalan secessionism. Or altenatively, the last stand of Catalan constitutionalism. In either case, it may become of historical importance, either in the mainline of future history or as a footnote. I vote to keep it for a while.[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... the notion of Tabarnia and the Tabarnia campaign is currently receiving international (mainstream) mediacoverage (for instance [1] (German), [2]/[3] (German), [4] (Austrian), [5] (Euronews/English), [6] (Austrian)). One can certainly argue that current international reporting might not be enough (yet) to provide notability, but it certainly seems enough to require a regular AfD rather than a speedy deletion. -Kmhkmh (talk) 06:18, 28 December 2017 (UTC) ,[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... I certainly did not "invent" this, nor did the original article's creator in the Spanish Wikipedia. It is a concept that dates back to at least 2012 and has been covered by multiple reliable sources, commented on by major politicians, and reached international press. The fact that it is a fictional topic does not mean it's not notable or unworthy of an inclusion in Wikipedia (see similar articles such as North Gyeonggi Province), and it certainly does not mean it passes the criteria for speedy deletion. --WPancake (talk) 06:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... (your reason here) --88.6.222.189 (talk) 07:34, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested DeletionSome die-hard catalonian separatits claim this to be no more than an internet trolling .

It is not the case

The Tabarnia movement is very real.Not only has been WORLD-Trending topic , it is also a very ongoing political movement . The freedom of tabarnia from the Rural Catalonia is aknowledged in the Spanish Constitution, stating very clear the protocol to create /partitionate a new autonomous region.

A serious movement ( signature petition ongoing ) , flags, anthems, etc.. to create a new autonomous region in Spain . This by all means deserves its own wikipedia page.

I suggest to leave the page as it is , while the ongoing debate continues.

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... (your reason here) --Tcguy999 (talk) 07:45, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a made up story or an invented issue. Tabarnia began as a parody against Catalan separatists and has gained increasing popularity. It is a real thing and stories about it have been all over the main Spanish newspapers in the last few days since the recent Catalan regional elections.

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because i) the term has become very widely used recently (the last few days, being one of the main hashtags in Twitter, and with international press coverage following) but it was created some years ago (2015); ii) as said, it has become a live issue, and it's therefore likely that people will search Wikipedia to know more about the subject; iii) given that the page has been created during the time this has become a topical agenda, it is really unlikely that the article has been written by the inventer/coiner of the term or someome they know personally; iv) the fact that the term was initially coined to be used in a humorous sense doens't diminish its encyclopedical value, as doesn't either for the Flying Spaghetti Monster --Diotime (talk) 07:46, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because it hasn't been "invented" by a bored Wikipedia user. It is a real topic. It is all over the news in Spain. It is a very real conversation topic. It shouldn' be deleted just because it offends separatists or because it started as irony. Things about Tabarnia are happening now, they are real news, not just on Twitter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.110.3 (talk) 09:28, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... (the idea of a new Autonomous Community that beleives in and stays in Spain while leaving Catalonia is the only pacific way found so far by very many peaceful people that wants to avoid a civil war in northeastern Spain, probably planned and instigated by those politicians who do not follow the rules they were elected for and, on the contrary, pretend to do simply what they feel like now and then as if they were the owners of that spanish land) --87.218.61.98 (talk) 09:42, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... (Support for Tabarnia reached as many as 130155 votes (and counting) at 1101 CET, 1001 UTC, on Thursday, December 28, 2017, as reflected at the polling page in The world's platform for change, Change.org

Moreover, the matter is of such importance in Spain that I think perhaps more than one million votes will be reached in support of Tabarnia.) --87.218.61.98 (talk) 10:02, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contested Deletion This article should not be speedy deleted as being about a subject that was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally and for lack of asserted importance, because... Obviously it is notable it is on Washington Post, New York Times, the front page of every single newspaper in Spain and is global trending topic. It is also a becoming a major movement in the anti-independence grass-roots movement in Catalonia. --Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:08, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a total breakdown of votes in elections for Tabarnia?

I can't find a source for it, although it easy possible to calculate based on election results. The results for Barcelones is 40.7% support independence, 48.0% are clearly against and 11.2% other options without clear stance on issue. It would be good if we could get the results for each Comarca of Tabarnia in a table. Only way I can do it for now is by aggregating results by municipality.Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:42, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sonrisas1 You can look at https://resultats.parlament2017.cat/09AU/DAU09000CR.htm?lang=es

In last general elections (June 2016), in Barcelona province , 28,82% support independence options (ERC+CDC): https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2016/generales/congreso/09/08.html

In Tarragona province , 33,39% support independence options: https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2016/generales/congreso/09/43.html

The small radical party for independence CUP, did not participate. Aprox. 5%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.168.126 (talk) 22:34, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok the total for Tabarnia region as a whole according to source given is 1,562,821 votes for unionist parties (48.29%) and 1,355,406 votes for separatist parties (41.88%) and another 317,945 votes (9.82%) for parties without a clear position on the matter such as En Comu Podem.
The total turnout for Tabarnia (minimum definition of 10 whole comarques) was 3,236,163. That is a significant majority of the total turnout for Catalonia which is 4,371,991.Sonrisas1 (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Satirical?

Please give arguments here. It is not a satirical movement although it has been used on twitter to make fun of Catalan nationalists. It exists since 2015 and is very much a serious movement, likely to grow in the coming months.Sonrisas1 (talk) 23:59, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources, including Spanish public broadcaster, call it satirical. It's neither a proposal nor a movement. No political party has expressed support and even Catalonia unionist parties call it a "joke". And no, it doesn't exist since 2015. It was created long before, because we can find satirical posts about it in Spanish forum Forocohes since 2013 (here and here), where they call it a "troll idea". Other Wikipedia editions are considering removing the article, due to is lack of relevancy. --Beethoven (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OF COURSE NOT, Tabernia has been seen as a satirical project by a part of the population and the media, including PP that is against the separation of Catalonia, but it is a political project and the media (even RAE) have recognised this

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/12/29/actualidad/1514549719_409900.html http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171228/rae-propone-tabarnes-como-gentilicio-tabarnia-6521206 https://blogs.elconfidencial.com/alma-corazon-vida/tribuna/2017-12-28/tabarnia-real-globalizacion-megaciudades-cataluna-independencia_1498815/

Thank you Beethoven. It is a grassroots movement which has caught many politicians off-guard, and initially many thought it was a joke since they had not even heard of it. It is rapidly gaining traction and as you know is gaining mass support within Tabarnia proper. Demonstrations for Tabarnia are scheduled for January in Barcelona. I know it is a source of extreme anguish for Catalan nationalists but I would request we keep a cool head. It won't go away by attempting to discredit it on English language wikipedia. One thing I agree with you, the concept has been widely used satirically to poke fun at catalan nationalists. But that does not mean the movement itself is satirical. Its proponents have made it clear it is not. Sonrisas1 (talk) 00:17, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it definitely isn't a grassroots movement. And no, it definitely isn't gaining "mass support within Tabarnia proper". As I explained you before, there are 0 political parties supporting it and no serious organization has showed support for it. As a satirical joke, it became really popular in Twitter last days, but that's it. If one day it becomes a real movement (something unlikely as for now), then this Wikipedia article will be consequently updated. The proponents of this satire ("Barcelona is not Catalonia" organization) are the first ones to take it as a satire/joke. Here you have one article from their website, for instance: In Barcelona we don't speak Catalan, we speak Barcelonian language. Another one of its publications here. --Beethoven (talk) 02:41, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You contradict yourself: You say 1) there are zero political parties supporting it and 2) it is not a grassroots movement. The fact that no organization is supporting it and it is spreading like wildfire is the very definition of a grassroots movement.Sonrisas1 (talk) 13:58, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's obviously not "spreading like wildfire". You don't have any reference to support this absurd claim. Remember this is Wikipedia. Regarding the satirical Tabarnia, I suggest you read the interview to its spokesman (Jaume Vives)[1]. The objective is not a real proposal to create an Autonomous Community, but a satirical proposal created to campaign against Catalonia independence. The real objective is to campaign for Catalonia to remain in Spain--Beethoven (talk) 14:33, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Blanking/Vandalism

As expected Catalan independence activists have started vandalizing blanking the article. I note it has been protected from their attacks in the Spanish language version already. Perhaps it should be protected here as well until they pop a couple of valiums?Sonrisas1 (talk) 00:20, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why it has to be protected? Tabarnia is a fictional creation by a part of radical unionist spaniards in a massive campaign started on some forums, and specially Twitter, just AFTER the results of catalan elections on December 21st 2017 (4 or 5 days ago) won by independentist catalan movement parties. The name seems to be in use in an extreme little scale by some ultra unionists, 1 or perhaps 2 years ago, never as a real idea to create a recognized region, and much less, to be based on any historic region (as it was appointed on the article, just hours before).
There are too many news explaining how this idea is satyrical by the creators of it, but if you insist this is now (just from 4 days ago or less) a real political movement petition, without any real support of any real parties or organizations yet, and if you try to use the extention of English wikipedia in social life to gain some favors or credibility, you have to explain the truth about it, and of course, be more polite (I'm referring to your last phrase). I'm pretty sure ultra spanish nationalists can transform an initial satyrical idea to a "Leitmotif" by its own, with of course, disastrous turn out (like as usual) if they have the opportunity (specially for themselves), but all has to be explained. At least, make a references to Catabàrnia, another imaginary region trying to secede from Tabarnia in any municipality where catalan independentist won last Sunday (before even the creation of imaginary Tabarnia), created just hours later of the other. It will be more complete.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DR_5Kb3WAAA41_B.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSCmE9RX0AAGs50.jpg
PS:If you are an editor of Wikipedia, of any other country than Spain, and you are reading this, you can thank all of that "interesting" stuff to M. Rajoy, Prime Minister of Spain. That **** never existed without his authentic disastrous administration, and his absolute inabilities to manage a country without even not breaking it up. And 3 more years remain! (presumably). Edvard (talk) 04:43, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's lots of different versions being thrown around here. The version I reverted to sounds very not-WP:NPOV, whereas the other version of the lede by Stuka93 says something completely different. What we should achieve here, ideally, is a lead section which represents, in due weight, all opinions of reliable sources. This is a contentious matter, clearly. I have applied for full protection. Ping Sergio Ramos 93 to join in with the discussion as well. Thank you. !dave 10:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Fine, alright, it's been reverted by WPancake. Still, I would invite the involved parties to discuss what should or should not be in the lede, and refrain from calling content vandalism unless it really is 'I like poop'. !dave 11:17, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi !dave, first of all, thank you for revert and demand a protection.
I will try to explain what is happening with this "Tabarnia" thing. Of course, from my point of view, but, I'm very quite sure many catalans will agree in many parts.
Actually, in Spain, specially in Catalonia, there is an authentic constitutional problem of BIG consequences. Just a week ago, an election to elect the catalan parliament was celebrated. Before this, a referendum of independence "illegalized" by spanish government, brutal police charges versus civil unarmed people, and weeks later, a declaration of independence declared in the Parliament of Catalonia, happened.
Ok, simply, the government of Catalonia, who has a democratic mandate from the past elections of 2015, in septembre 27, and the referendum, was jailed or has to go to exile in Belgium, to avoid the jail.
In that situation, spanish government forced a regional election (without any power to do that, but ok, no technicalities here). This was saw as an opportunitty to win the catalan regional government by unionists forces. Unfortunately for them, they lost. Independentists won again, with ALL of the problems they had, to made a "normal" campaign.
So, this is a brief summary of what happened, until, in a very explosive way, the "Tabernian issue" appeared. I think it was in Sunday? perhaps Monday? Tuesday? (Can't remember now) of this week, twitter was exploding with "tabernian secessionism". OK, there is NO region called Tabernia, never existed. Tabernia i a neologism mixing the words of a cities of Tarragona, Barcelona, and, yep, Narnia. Created years ago, in a famous internet forum called ForoCohes. They have an article in spanish Wikipedia, if you understand spanish.
Forocoches is the most important internet forum in Spain, and very very controversial in its own. As I posted, exists a thFread, form years ago, explaining what is "Tabernia", explicitly talking for the case Catalonia secede from Spain (catalans secessionist movement was already very strong that days).
Tabernia has evolved during lasts months (went independentist movement is really strong, in spite of authentic persecutions to every person the can persecute in any way, in a very surrealist way, the last YEARS (example: this man, a local politician, was judged to only say, literally, a popular phrase like "to break eggs", and was judged in the capital of Spain, Madrid, like a terrorist! "https://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/123573/video/fiscal/insisteix/violencia/trencar/ous/interrogatori/joan/com, but many many many more, things like that) in a real idea to break Catalonia using, specially, the important percentage of population in metropolitan area of Barcelona who has roots in other parts of Spain.
It exists a great part of population who migrated from other regions of Spain in the Franco dictatorship. Years, searching a better life in more economic evolved regions. A important part of them go to Catalonia. Part (just a PART) of this immigration, now, are heavy pro-Spain, and also, part of their descendants. Spanish social networks are full of messages of hate to catalan language, and independentist, or even catalans, from them. Even the unionists parties, can launch a hate speeches without any problems. No persecution from spanish judiciary system.
https://www.efe.com/efe/espana/politica/albiol-si-alguien-ha-comprado-urnas-o-las-devuelve-se-va-a-comer/10002-3339607
It's a real scandal, so much uncovered by international media, beyond days like the past October 1st brutal aggressions.
Media of Spain are VERY biased to defend this points of view, and when this thing of Tabarnia appeared on twitter, they dedicate many many hours like this article explains https://www.elnacional.cat/enblau/es/television/espejo-publico-tabarnia-antena3_224877_102.html
This, is happening NOW, nowadays, this week.
Tabarnia is nothing more of what Spain hides: it exist a real part of its population with very undemocratic behaviors, product of 40 years of Francoism, and 40 more years of NOT CONDEMN EXPLICITLY the FRANCOISM. In fact, the GIANT tomb of the dictator, constructed with republican slaves, are continuosly mantained by public money, even today!: El Valle de los Caidos, search fot it. The only mention of this situation, exalts the behaviour of ultra spanish antionalists, but in the reality never was a real retribution for the victims of the dictatorship.
Tabarnia, is, exactly, ANOTHER EXAMPLE of what happened in October the 1st of 2017 when the world surprised to see Spain beating a young people an older ones,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqDYQQ9tIZo
just for expressing his opinion in a PACIFIC vote, LEGAL OR NOT, doesn't matter. The civil population all over the world surprised, but more surprising was the fact, many spaniard celebrated that. I repeat, CE-LE-BRA-TED. in fact, they celebrated the fact even before happened, celebrating the departing of civil guards and police to Catalonia (to beat people).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA1Sw-szU6w
Tabarnia is just another aggression of spanish undemocratic right fascism, based on castelianist ultra nationalist: nothing in Spain can be really Spanish, if it is not in castilian language (called spanish for political reasons centuries ago), or castilain, and of course, not catalans. Catalanophobia is real in Spain, and it has been many centuries ago. But never so strong like in last decades. Tabarnia pretends to broke apart Catalonia, because, after election, unionists see they CANNOT win in all Catalonia. The only option they have, instead of accept the defeat, is broke the "enemy", and of course, try to sell this invention with any absurd argument (Like they are the county of Barcelona? WTF? the county of Barcelona evolved to actual Catalonia centuries ago). Wikipedia has a special place in this invention, and specially tne ENGLISH wikipedia, for its importance on a global society: every one searches things in Wikipedia to be "fast informed".
This is a very fast summary, ii s much much more. You can search in Twitter to see what I try to tell. It's important to watch out very much with this article, I will recommend very strongly a very very cautious politic edition of it. In fact, I reccomend, obviosly to erase it, but I know this is my opinion. My opinions has to serve to put on guard everyone in english wikipedia to activate all the alarms in catalan topics, not only this. They are a real movements to create acolonial catalonia, or in spite of this, just to broke apart. Please, ask to catalan editors, even if they do not thing like me.
Tabarnia, i'm very very sure about this, is a project to do in Catalonia what happened in Bosnia with Republika Srpska (1991–95) in the way the public international opinion let them do, if they can. It is a bully situation, with many international media not informing very much.
Oh, and I can tell you. they will try to hack my account. In fact, they tried.
Thanks for your attention. And I wish Wikipedia will put a severe control on that article, but, who knows what connections some people have to try to prevent this. (¿?) We'll continue to discuss the matter, all that we can, but it is important for Wikipedia to ask many people living in Catalonia who edit articles in Wikipedia, to have a general and plural idea of what is happening, because things like "Tabarnia" pretend to use Wikipedia as a form of "legitimize" "their way" in front of the world. Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 12:51, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sergio Ramos 93: your version was perhaps the most controversial, and has been reverted to something more fact-like for the time being. However, it is clear that there is some credible controversy that should not be whitewashed, and also that other users are welcome to join this talk page and involve themselves with this discussion, to allow for (as I said) a lede that summarises the subject in due weight. I think I have seen about four versions of the lede for this article submitted by various users, and the article was only created two days ago.
Nobody, including you, should be using Wikipedia to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, and I must remind all that the holy grail of this due weight is how reliable sources report on this matter. Nevertheless, it's not just me and you, so I await for the opinions of other editors, such as WPancake and Stuka93. !dave 13:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My name is not dave, well why did you invite this crazy guy to join the discussion?! Sonrisas1 (talk) 14:05, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise then. !dave 15:45, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my goodness... XD
1 Tabarnia is NOT a historic region or based on a historical region of any kind. No, IT IS NOT BASED on County of Barcelona.
2 Tabarnia has appeared, from nowhere this F···· week, in spanish media, after a "trending topic storm" on twitter. Just days after a catalan election won by independentists.
3 My version of the article included more citations, all of them true, including THE ORIGIN of the idea, in a spanish forum, 5 years ago.
4 The article contains things like "The rise of this movement creates tension among the Catalan separatist movement because of argumental contradiction and geostrategic risk."
This is a fucking stupid opinion, probably from the creators of the Tabarnia idea. Plus: "Geostrategic risk?" WTF? What "Geostrategic Risk"?
So, this article has to be VERY CONTROLLED, ok? SO VERY FUCKING CONTROLLED.
Better? Thank you.
Sorry for the use of the "fucking" word.
And I have to apologise to you, sir !dave. The only person who has to apologise here is me, to you, nobody else. Sorry. The topic of Catalonia, indeed, is very important for some. Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 17:31, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SPA

We could add to this list Sonrisas1 (and its IP), that has been editing and vandalizing same set of articles for the last weeks; all related with Catalonia politics (such as: Catalan independence movement, TV3 (Catalonia), Catalan Countries, Societat Civil Catalana or Tabarnia). Usually all his contributions end up being reverted by other users.

All these users have contributed writing the unencyclopaedic sections "Political Claims" and "Hypothetical Territory and Historical Revisionism" of this article. These sections have no references/citations other than does of the same satirical platform behind "Tabarnia" (www.bcnisnotcat.es). --Beethoven (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Beethoven: I applied for full protection at WP:RFPP, but haven't got a reply back 6 and a half hours later. Might worth going to WP:ANI, Admin eyes needed or whatever. !dave 16:46, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Beethoven Can you please relax? Trying to get people banned from wikipedia because you don't like an article is not a correct approach. I suggest you tone down your crazed political activism on Wikipedia.Sonrisas1 (talk) 17:23, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Impressive. You have balls "my friend". I refered precisely to this type of things when I said before: "And I wish Wikipedia will put a severe control on that article, but, who knows what connections some people have to try to prevent this.(¿?)" Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Section of "See Also""

There are some incorrections in the comparations. I will list them:

1) Community of Madrid was created by a political reasons: government wanted to have a Community for the capital, remembering things like Ille-de-France, Washington DC or Distroto federal of some countries. This, used a HISTORICAL pronvince of Madrid as a base, much more older. This is not the case of Tabarnia, IN ANY CASE.

2) La Rioja was the historical Province of Logroño. The creation of a Community just for it was very "curious". In fact, never well explained. But equally, is not the same of what the people who defends Tabarnia demand, Logroño was a province before. And in fact, it is.

3) The region of Murcia received a Community by their own, after the decision to include Albacete in Castilla-la Mancha Community, but in fact IT WAS A PROVINCE BY THEIR OWN, from much before. So it is also NOT the same example. The 3 examples are in fact, bad examples to this section, all were provinces before, provinces exist today, and in the same form they existed centuries ago. Tabarnia do not pretend to be a province, but an Autonomous Community, a much greater level of autonomy

The example of Quebec, must to be pointed, accepts the fact that Quebec can secede from Canada, like people supporting Tabarnia repetedly remember (when they accept the case as a type of analogy), a right actual spanish state doesn't recognize to Catalonia. So, the comparation is incorrect. Spain recognizes in fact, in some way, the word nation, in the actual Statute of autonommy of Catalonia. It was not especifically cuted out of this, in the reform of Tribunal Constitucional demanded by Partido Popular, one of the parties who doesn't want the independence in Catalonia. http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Admin/lo6-2006.html#i

And it recognizes this nation, in the word "nationality" in the actual Spanish Constitution. Catalonia is formed by 4 provinces, officially recognized. And of course, not divided, like demand the invented project of Tabarnia. Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 20:39, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Section Movement

Citation: "The movement has a legal basis in the Canadian Clarity Act, according to which regions opposed to Quebecois separatism are to remain within Canada in case of a secession, as well as Articles 143 and 144 of the Spanish Constitution, which allows the formation of autonomous communities."

This is a fail, and a poor comprension of law.

"the movement", as they say (perhaps francoist implications in the definition? Movimiento Nacional) can not be, can never be "legally based" on a legislation of another country. So if it is true, it is simple an error of base. The only similar real thing similar to this is on the topic of severe human rights vulnerations, by the Universal jurisdiction in penal law: when a international court can't intervene, a national jurisdiction can intervene, to supply it. Not the case.Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 20:54, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize you are literally rambling nonsense, right? It is not even a coherent argument one can respond to or oppose. Its a childish "I hate all of this, make it go away." rant. Sonrisas1 (talk) 22:36, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Spain is not part of Canada, ill-bred.Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 20:53, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, it makes sense. A Spanish movement may be “inspired by” a Canadian law, but not have a “legal basis” in that law. Sabbut (talk) 09:20, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. Thanks. The difference is really important. Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 21:00, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. --Beethoven (talk) 20:36, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Major errors in the article re Canadian Act of Clarity and International Law

    The articles reads: 'The movement has a legal basis in the Canadian Clarity Act, according to which regions opposed to Quebecois separatism are to remain within Canada in case of a secession....'.
   This is completely wrong.  The Canadian Clarity Act says nothing of the sort, making no reference to boundaries at all.  as anyone can read for themselves here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C-31.8.pdf.  This will only take a few minutes; the Act only has two pages of text in The English language version.
     The reason that the Act makes no reference to boundaries is that the Canadian government had, some years earlier, sought advice from a panel of international law experts regarding this very question and was advised that international law would support the territorial integrity of Quebec in the event of secession. (You can read more here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Quebec.
       This article is 'Protected to prevent vandalism', so I cannot edit.  Whoever has control should either correct this error or tell me how to do so and I will.  In the case of such a contentious matter, it is imperative for the credibility of Wikipedia that the article be factually correct.   Nakashchit (talk) 05:32, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nakashchit It is not completely wrong, it is partly wrong. The law says that the referendum will be the basis for negotiations on territorial borders etc. and rights of minorities. So it is implied in the Clarity law. A referendum would be the beginning of a long process whereby the territorial integrity in Quebec is in no way guaranteed. Needs some rewording.Sonrisas1 (talk) 09:30, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nakashchit Not to mention that it was the Quebec government which commissioned that report (i.e. to support its position), not the Canadian government - and it is unlikely to have had any impact on the drafting of the law. Evidently, Quebec has no more right to territorial integrity than Canada does and changes to its borders would be made prior to independence not after. The Canadian government made it clear that Quebec's borders would not be the same in case of a hypothetical independence, and the way for this change of borders was opened in the Clarity law. Sonrisas1 (talk) 09:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Sonrisa, firstly, I thank you for your prompt response. I hope that my comments will receive the same attention from your friends (as I assume that they are) who control the corresponding French language article. Secondly. I apologise for my error in referring to the international experts' report on borders, which I conflated with the Supreme Court report to Minister. You are quite right to draw attention to this error. I am afraid that I conflated this report with the Supreme Court Report to Minister Dion, which forms the basis for the drafting of the Clarity Act, which does indeed mention potential changes to borders resulting reference to borders in the context of negotiations arising from a clear expression of the people's will, which it is understood impose upon the Canadian Government the duty to negotiate independence whilst at the same time protecting the rights of minorities. The Supreme Court did not reject the earlier report to the Quebec government of the expert panel, but effectively qualified it with reference to the proctection of the rights of minorities. Quite rightly, it follows that, even though the presumption may be against any border changes, they may be necessary to exercise this duty towards minorities. If you report this in its entirety I shall be satisfied as to the appropriate balance of this paragraph of the article. Yours faithfully, Nakashchit (talk) 16:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nakashchit You are welcome. And no, I have no relationship nor contact with any creators or editors of this article on this wikipedia or projects in other languages.Sonrisas1 (talk) 18:15, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Sonrisa, In response to your second reply, you should not underestimate the maturity and civility of both sides of this debate in Canada since its inception fifty years ago. It goes without saying that the views of both the Panel of Experts and those of the Quebec government were carefully considered by the Canadian government in drafting the Act, in order to ensure that the government discharged its responsibility to all of its citizens, including those who wished to separate. Canadians expect no less. At a press conference in English in 1968, an American reporter asked then-leader of the Parti Qubecois, René Lévesque, whether a vote for separation would mean civil war. Mr Lévesque was visibly taken aback and then scoffed: 'Of course not. English Canadians are civilised people.' Fifty years later, the Canadian justice system has yet to use the police against separatists or to incarcerate a single separatist politician. The result has been that the steam has finally more or less gone out of the issue. There is much else in the article that requires more balance. For example, it simply will not do to allege historical revisionism without any detail whatever. You can quite easily make the (correct) point that the proposed division of Spain raises the issue of the divisibility of Catalonia without tendentious reference to historical revisionism at all. Let it suffice to say that there are different views of history. One cannot interpret medieval history in terms of anachronistic modern concepts of 'state' and 'nation'; it is not a matter of historical revisionism as much as historical fantasy. If the exposition can be made without entering this minefield then you should do so. If you edit accordingly, you should introduce the arguments for and against division of Catalonia. For consistency, should not Barcelona proper, the metropolis of the Catalan people for over 1,000 years, which largely supports independence, remain in Catalonia? If western Quebec were to be partitioned, should not too parts of eastern and northern Ontario, together with northern New Brunswick? What about the Franja Oriental of Aragon? Where does it stop? The Panel of Experts was right to emphasise the principle of historical continuity and succession in international law. The Canadian Supreme Court did right to shift the emphasis towards the duty of the Canadian government to protect the human rights of all of its citizens. I believe that most thinking Canadians accept that. If you tell that story, you will add light to, and possibly remove some of the heat from, the debate. Que vaya con dios. Tiene un cargo importante. Nakashchit (talk) 18:55, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nakashchit True. Then again, Quebec never declared independence on the basis of a low-turn out kangaroo referendum held against the Quebec law and Canadian law. I'm pretty sure that if they had, its leaders would have been incarcerated. You have to understand that, under the Spanish constitution, it is perfectly legal to establish new regions if there is a strong popular will to do so within them. Spanish regions don't have a "natural right to territorial integrity", only internationally recognized nation states do. Many regions in Spain have been divided in recent history. Madrid for example was separated from Castile and this has led to opposition from Castilian nationalists. Cantabria also separated from Castile because there was a strong desire by its population to do so. Tabarnia is no different, particularly if it is to avoid the social, political and economic risks linked to independence movements. Sonrisas1 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Eliminate adjectives like "satirical" and bring some other real issues

Tabarnia is a real political project so qualifying adjectives like "satirical" do not belong in the description, whether one agrees or disagrees with the project. Certainly the pro-independent Catalonia would like to frame this as a joke but it is NOT a joke: around half of the population wishes to remain as part of Spain and the majority of that population is concentrated within the metro area of Barcelona and surrounding "comarcas" or counties, roughly the area outlined in the Tabarnia project. Similarly, it is not a joke the linguistic discrimination suffered by Spanish-speaking population within Catalonia that can not use it in any official business (government and official documents, healthcare, etc). Moreover, the Spanish-speaking population within Catalonia does not have the right to choose educating their children in their native tongue, which is a violation not only of the Spanish constitution (which establishes as co-official the use of Spanish and the autonomous community language) but also of the United Nation's rights of children: to be educated in their mother tongue. Finally, it is not a joke the use of insults and hurtful words like "charnegos" or "xarnegos" (a word with similar connotations than the "n" word in the US) to refer to the Spanish speaking minorities within Catalonia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfernandezcastro (talk • contribs) 14:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And you can see now, how this message put much credibility to that edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tabarnia&oldid=817591632
Tabarnia, as that edit explains, is a project of ultra right castilianist spaniards living in Catalonia (and also other parts of Spain) to create a excluding ethnicist region in Catalonia, based in no historic region at all, lying about that, but using Wikipedia to win credibility, and pretending to create social tensions if it is needed. The inclusion in this discusion of the word "charnegos" or "xarnegos", in a very unjustified manner, seems to seek this. For clarifying purposes I think is a very good idea to explain the meaning of that word: "Xarnego" is an old word to describe someone result of the union of one parent catalan and another from outside of Catalonia. The origen of this word seems to be in the massive inmigration of french people (specially from the south of France) to Catalonia in XVI- XVII centuries. The word has been used specially in the 60's or 70's as a pejorative way (specially in that years, perhaps also the 80's) to refer to the massive immigration from the rest of Spain in the Franco's fascist dictadorship years. Nowadays this word has changed in some way their meaning and is even used with proud by catalans who want to show their non-catalans roots, without rejecting their "Catalanity" (their good feelings about Catalonia).
Examples:
"Proud to be Xarnegos" (in catalan)
Xarnego's Proud! (in catalan)
It has to be cleared some people (specially older ultra nationalists catalan people) uses with the old meaning even today, but that use is seeing as very repulsive by the majority of modern catalan society. Also has to be said last years far right spanish nationalists movements in Catalonia promoted the original use to create new tensions.
Pejorative words to refer to catalans with NO recent migration roots are also used, like "Polacos", or specially last years "catalufos", but this is enough to explain the idea.
Tabarnia new idea/project seems to clearly seek the way and the results of Republika Srpska derived directly from the self-proclaimed Republika Srpska (1991–95) during Yugoslav wars, in Bosnia, and it seems to use Wikipedia to promote it: Trying to create a new political entity using ethnic caracteristics majorities. Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 30 December 2017

Tabarnia is a real political project so qualifying adjectives like "satirical" do not belong in the description, whether one agrees or disagrees with the project. Certainly the pro-independent Catalonia would like to frame this as a joke but it is NOT a joke: around half of the population wishes to remain as part of Spain and the majority of that population is concentrated within the metro area of Barcelona and surrounding "comarcas" or counties, roughly the area outlined in the Tabarnia project. Similarly, it is not a joke the linguistic discrimination suffered by Spanish-speaking population within Catalonia that can not use it in any official business (government and official documents, healthcare, etc). Moreover, the Spanish-speaking population within Catalonia does not have the right to choose educating their children in their native tongue, which is a violation not only of the Spanish constitution (which establishes as co-official the use of Spanish and the autonomous community language) but also of the United Nation's rights of children: to be educated in their mother tongue. Finally, it is not a joke the use of insults and hurtful words like "charnegos" or "xarnegos" (a word with similar connotations than the "n" word in the US) to refer to the Spanish speaking minorities within Catalonia. Jfernandezcastro (talk) 14:53, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, the project is not satirical. There is an organization promoting this autonomous community quite seriously. However, numerous media initially interpreted it as satirical, since it was widely used to make fun of nationalists by seeing how they responded to their own arguments. Perhaps more sources are required to demonstrate that it is a serious grassroots movement. Sonrisas1 (talk) 18:31, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please, refrain from throwing political propaganda User:Jfernandezcastro, and similar others single-purpose accounts that have been vandalizing this article non-stop for the last days. Regarding the satirical "Tabarnia", you have more information here. It's a satirical proposition (not real at all) created by a small Spanish nationalist organization campaigning against Catalonia independence. The satire itself is to pretend it's a "real political project", despite the real objective being to push for Catalonia to remain in Spain. A quick visit through the organization humorous website makes it clear enough; for instance this article, suggesting in Barcelona people don't speak Catalan but a different language named "Barcelonian". Right now "Tabarnia" is nothing more than a meme that became a Twitter's trending topic some days ago, but nothing more than that. And nothing else tells us this will change in the future. Notice all political parties against Catalonia independence, when asked a few days ago about the Tabarnia meme, called it a "funny joke". Nobody referred to Tabarnia as a "real project". Finally User:Sonrisas1, when you say "Perhaps more sources are required to demonstrate that it is a serious grassroots movement", let me tell you that no, you don't need "more" sources. What you really first need is at least 1 source, because you haven't provided yet any single source that proves Tabarnia is a "grassroots movement". And let me tell you, as for now, you won't find a single one. Real examples of grassroots organizations are, for example, Assemblea Nacional Catalana (more info here). Just in case you didn't know the meaning of "grassroots movement". Nice day to you all! --Beethoven (talk) 20:08, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven Now that is the most hilarious comment of the week. ANC a grassroots movement???? After having received millions of euros in MY taxes from the Catalan government for years? Its like calling the Pasdaran a "grassroots" movement. It is one of the main subsidized instruments of controlling society with public money by nationalist parties. Tabarnia, on the other hand, is the EXACT DEFINITION of a grassroots movement since it developed without the support of any government or political party or funding. The exact opposite of the ANC Omnium neo-fascist QUANGOs. Stop your trolling here, Beethoven. We all know you just want to destroy this article for your extremist political views. Sonrisas1 (talk) 20:22, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thought catalans were russians, not nazis or islamists! (rolling my eyes).
The Government notes the intervention in Catalonia of 'hackers' from Russia and Venezuela (in spanish)
Russian pranksters convince Spain's defence minister that Catalonia's president is a secret Kremlin spy codenamed 'Cipollino'
And your taxes are payed to Spanish Central Government.
Try to demostrate this accusations to ANC, specially the fascists accusations, after 6 years without a single incident in 6 massive demostrations on streets (the most massives in Europe), every National Day of Catalonia.
This is for you a fascist organization? Where is the violence or hate-messages? The ultra militarist messages and behaviours? Nowhere
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNtgcvojWPQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmxMnLz738o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPghq4lqrq8
You can say what you want about Tabarnia, but... NO secessionist movilization is created in just 4 days and can be defined as "grassroots" even if they win the simpathy of part of the population, by promoting it everywhere, like TV shows, in one week.
And THIS is a real FASCIST movement: Falange demostration in Madrid, 2017, to remember the day of the death of Franco. And Spain don't persecute that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLo66bEPzsE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKwlmDmcAS4
Every day more foreign people knows the actual political poor situation in Spain: has clearly connection with what happened 80 years ago, in Spanish Civil War. This time there will be no Hitler or Mussolini to help a fascist Spain like in the 30's, or catalans to try to defend your poor democracy. You clearly don't deserve them. Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You were right !dave. It seems there's neither goodwill nor cooperation here. Single-purpose accounts like User:Jfernandezcastro are not even trying to discuss. He keeps spamming political propaganda on the discussion page that has nothing to do with the article, without even bothering to answer to the real discussions taking place here to improve the article. Same with User:Sonrisas1, that keeps spreading political/ideological propaganda that is totally unrelated with the article. User:Scolaire, since you already had to deal with him in other Catalonia-related articles, probably you can also help here if that's OK with you. WP:SOAP and WP:NPOV. Regarding User:Sergio Ramos 93, don't even try to engage in a political propaganda war with User:Sonrisas1, because that's probably what he exactly wants. We all know that ANC is not "neo-fascist" and that most of his propaganda rants don't make much sense. So there's no need to reply him, just ignore him and focus on the discussion related with this article. Finally, I also believe User:Only should take a look at this. Because I'm afraid once the page protection expires, SPA will come back to vandalize the article. --Beethoven (talk) 00:42, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven, I have already told Sonrisas that I don't think it's appropriate to try and drag me into stupid POV wars on pages that I have no involvement in. It's even more inappropriate coming from you, who has never interacted with me before. Scolaire (talk) 10:10, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: There is no consensus for this request to be carried out at this time, discussion should continue amongst the participants that are not blocked, and if/when consensus emerges, a fresh request should be made. I'm also noting that the requesting user has been blocked. Nick (talk) 01:50, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 30 December 2017

More than 200,000 signatures in change.org requesting the creation of a new Autonomous Community that included mainly the metropolitan area of Barcelona and surrounding counties where the majority of the population support to remain within Spain are enough evidence that Tabarnia is a real political project proposal supported by a grass roots social movement. Please, check the change.org website for Tabarnia. Moreover, Spain is a constitutional democracy since 1977/78. Jfernandezcastro (talk) 22:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: There is clearly not consensus for this request at this time. The requesting account has also been blocked. Nick (talk) 01:48, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hypothetical Territory and Historical Revisionism

Quote:

"Tabarnia is a fictional territorial proposal that does not correspond to any present political or administrative unit. However, following a similar logic of Historical Revisionism that Catalan separatists use"

This is an infamy for Wikipedia project, but at very least, needs a "citation needed" label URGENTLY, and from a very very very GOOD AND OBJECTIVE SOURCE.

This article is full of gratuitous catalanophobia. And the most repulsive is: THE EDITOR WHO WROTE THAT, ACCEPTS TABARNIA IS USING A REVISIONISM ARGUMENTS, with a supposed excuse based on "others do the same". RE-PUL-SI-VE!!! Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 22:28, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 30 December 2017

Tabarnia is a political project within Catalonia advocating to create a new autonomous community that would decide to remain part of Spain in case of a hypothetical Catalonian independence. This would be a new Spanish autonomous community encompassing the current Catalan comarques of Tarragonés, Baix Camp, Baix Penedès, Alt Penedès, Garraf, Baix Llobregat, Barcelonès, Vallès Oriental, Vallès Occidental and Maresme. 83.39.220.219 (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:56, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bias.

Some Spanish nationalist (because yeah, there are nationalists everywhere, and, those who accuse people of any nationality of being nationalists are usually nationalist themselves which think that only the other side can be nationalists) posted the Spanish version of the article in the comments section of a digital Catalan newspaper in Facebook. Not happy with Spanish Wikipedia having the disguisting attitude of translating Catalan and Basque names to Spanish (but they do not translate Düsseldorf, for example) in all their articles, they now resort to a massive trolling campaign regarding Catalonia.

Regarding the use of the word "xarnego", its meaning was used pejoratively when there was the massive emigration wave to Catalonia from the rest of Spain, which the Spanish government pretended to manipulate and turn into "settlers" which will hispanize Catalonia. Well, that went wrong, because most of this people wanted to integrate here and become Catalans. And most of them ended up doing it. That is a fact that Spanish nationalists such as the one who wrote the article (entry) can't stand because their project of cultural genocide and assimilation F-A-I-L-E-D. The fear to the newcomers was understandable, and it dissapeared as long as they did integrate in our society. I descend from them.

However, in the metropolitan area of Barcelona, a quite big minority did not integrate (like 30% of that emigration in thar area) and to this day they live in Catalonia hating everything related with it, whether it is language, culture, or the same land where they live. In the 70's the neighbourhoods where they lived were considered the most dangerous in the whole city.

Now that neighbourhoods are not dangerous anymore due to the improving of living conditions, but discussing with some of them I have been told that "You are not Catalan" "You can not be in favour of independence because you do not have Catalan surnames"

They have an insane obsession with blood. By them, not by any Catalan independentist or nationalist.

Also, this people are now showing their hypocrisy criticizing our "obsession" with language and identity. Well. At least we do not tell anyone that he or she can not be one of us because they do not have Catalan blood.

They also seem to have an obsession against rural people.

Besides, they do not have their own language, culture, or conscience UNLIKE the Occitan speaking valley of Val d'Aran, which in case of independence has been granted self determination by the Catalan government.

Regarding the point of "reductio ad absurdum", I can counter attac that. If cultures and languages having their own countries is so bad, why do we do not return back to the age of empires? Let's restablish the Roman Empire! Let's restablish the Rashidun Caliphate! Let's restablish the British Empire!

Also, that "you can not be independent because you never were before" theory does not have any sense. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and more had never been independent before 1918 so according to Sonrisas or jfernandez they should not be independent today or what?

It is perfectly legitimal to be against independence, but do not spread hate. And do not even dare to call us xenophobes or obsessed with identity because Falange and philo-nazi parties are still legal in Spain. Also, some news outlets take the idea seriously and some of them satirically.They both seem unable to look at the results of last elections.Breizhcatalonia1993 (talk) 03:17, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see.

Insults on Twitter against Pro-Spain Catalans in period surrounding 2017 Catalan regional elections

Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Recent source proving it is NOT satirical

Spokesman of Tabarnia movement "If the independence process continues, we will have an referendum for Tabarnia in October 2019. Please remove "satirical" from lead. http://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2017/12/31/5a47d93e468aeb56238b4587.html

Pro-independence editors here are so petrified of this movement they want to misconstrue it as something it is not and make it go away.Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 31 December 2017

Small edit: in the third paragraph it would be relevant to make the following subsitution:

Change "Catalan regional election of the 21st December 2017, which provoked renewed interest" to "Catalan regional election of the 21st December 2017, which provoked renewed interest after the popular vote yielded 47.5% in favour of parties containing independence in their platforms, and 52.5% in favour of parties opposing Catalan independence in some form.


This is important in order to understand the context in which this movement appeared. 2.137.35.37 (talk) 19:33, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NO. It will be a very biased edit: Unionists parties had a 43,5% of total votes, not 52,5% like you said. There is a 7,46% of votes to non-positioned candidacy: Catalunya en Comú–Podem. The media outside Spain ("curiously") uses to be much more clear than spanish non-catalan media in this topic: This coalition has a no clear position about this political conflict, so its voters cannot be added to any of two blocks.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/21/europe/catalonia-election-results-independence-spain-intl/index.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34372548
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/21/catalonia-election-set-to-give-victory-to-pro-independence-parties

Sergio Ramos 93 (talk) 21:08, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Sergio Ramos 93 The majority of En Comu voters are against independence and the party expelled two members for supporting the independence declaration. So no, it is pretty much contrary to independence. It does have an ambivalent discourse and is against the PP government, but that is a separate matter. Sonrisas1 (talk) 12:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ "Jaume Vives, portavoz oficial de Tabarnia: "Está empezando a conseguir su objetivo: que los propios independentistas se desmonten sus argumentos"" (in Spanish). Antena 3. 28 December 2017.
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