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POV title

The title of the article (2019 Venezuela coup attempt) is POV and fails to account for the Constitution of Venezuela. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: I am not sure if it is a rebellion, revolt or coup d'état. Would really benefit us if we had some other eyes looking at this. The correct terminology, especially in regards to NPOV, is difficult to find.----ZiaLater (talk) 17:12, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Uprising would have been a starting place, but yes, it is hard to find the right term. But Coup isn't it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SandyGeorgia: It fits the textbook definition of a coup attempt (a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group)[1]. Almost every coup has some democratic pretense, they should still be called what they are.Zellfire999 (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d%27%C3%A9tat
The problems are in the definition of "existing government", half of the world says that is Maduro's, half says Guiado's. Neither is this "sudden"; it is part of a process that has been called for according to the Constitution of Venezuela for months. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For example: Look at the sources in the article now: while a few predictable English-language sources call it a "coup", many do not (calling it instead an "uprising"). A google search reveals that, predictably, Cuban, Russian and Venezuelan-state owned media (like Telesur) and chavistas like Eva Golinger are calling it a coup. But, looking at Spanish-language sources (where there is perhaps a better understanding of the political dynamic), El Pais (Spain), Tiempo (Colombia), and La Nacion (Argentina), along with many English-language sources, refer to it as an "uprising". This may be a WP:GLOBAL issue, where Wikipedia might want to respect some local sources and avoid gringification. Arab Spring is referred to as an uprising, not a coup; there is kind of a predisposition that exists about Latin American politics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Coup"? When Guairó is recognized by most nations and international organizations as the legitimate president of Venezuela.--SirEdimon (talk) 18:59, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Recognition of a coup leader by some external powers (US government and its allies (i.e. "most nations and international organizations" from US-centric/West-centric POV) in this case) has no relevance in determining whether the event is a coup. It only matters whether there is an active ongoing attempt to overthrow a government, regardless of the perceived legitimacy of that government and this is clearly the case here. Therefore, not calling it a coup would be extremely POV (although it would be a mainstream and a popular POV in The West, but still a POV). 109.60.38.128 (talk) 19:32, 30 April 2019 (UTC) — 109.60.38.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
First, Guaidó is recognized by almost all the important and democratic countries in the world and for important international organizations like the European Parliament and the Organization of American States. The only two important countries that recognize Maduro are Russia and China (non-democratic countries known for support dictators around the world). Second, there is not "ongoing attempt to overthrow a government" because the Venezuelan internationality recognized government is formed by Guaidó and the National Assembly.--SirEdimon (talk) 20:31, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A government is a government if it governs the country, regardless of its international recognition. An attempt to overthrow it, even if supported by the entire rest of the world, is still a coup attempt. 109.60.38.128 (talk) 21:00, 30 April 2019 (UTC) — 109.60.38.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Arab Spring uses the word coup only twice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:54, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Given that Guaido’s recognized as Acting President by 50+ countries, something like “(April) 2019 Venezuelan clashes” seems to be the most neutral title to me. However, the title should depend on what reliable sources are calling it. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 20:52, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Most Spanish sources (and many English sources) are calling it an uprising. April 2019 Venezuela uprising works for me, as there may be others. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:02, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BobNesh, that was a very disruptive thing to do, particularly when you did not engage the discussion, and did not apparently even read it. Moving a move over a redirect leaves a mess, and there was consensus. I hope you don't always edit that way; discussion on talk is always nice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) @BobNesh: There were nationwide protests, in every state. The defector soldiers didn't attempt to take over any government or power institutions, unlike previous coup attempts in Venezuela, were the presidential palace, the National Assembly or the state television channel. During the first classes the soldiers stayed in Altamira, and Guaidó made an enphasis to summon protests and to engage in non violent means. In Portuguese Wikipedia has called this an uprising, and the Spanish Wikipedia calls the article Operación Libertad. Calling the events a coup is for political means. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I support reverting BobNesh move. They cannot move article as they want. This is disruptive and pure vandalism. BobNesh is pushing their POV.--SirEdimon (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We can't just revert it; we need an admin. That's why it is a very disruptive thing to do. Now we have to round up someone who will correct the move, and probably request semi-protection. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:33, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have read the discussion. Consensus on moving the page hasn't been reached. Sorry. BobNesh (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So you just moved it again, without discussing on talk. How collegial. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How was a move revert by BobNesh disruptive, while initial move, which was (also) without consensus, wasn't disruptive? Double standards much? 109.60.38.128 (talk) 21:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC) — 109.60.38.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
(edit conflict) I cannot for the life of me understand how this is not a coup. A military plot took place and elements of the army rose up rationally in order to overthrow the established government, it's a classic coup d'etat. Even if you accept the illogical position that Guaido is the president(he is clearly not in power) then at least he is conducting an auto-coup. That news agencies stopped calling this coup a coup was clearly because of political pressure. As it stands now the title and the article in general are extremely biased. Red Greek Revolution (talk) 22:47, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Most sources aren't calling it a coup, whether US or international (Maduro allies like Russia and Cuba do call it a coup). And saying that there was "an overthrow of an established government" implies that Maduro's is the legitimate established government; the alternate and widely held view is that he has illegitimately usurped power, and Guaido is restoring constitutional order. Most sources seem to be going with that. Do you really think Trump can exert political pressure on the US media <smile>? They don't much care for him you know :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:52, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Whether Maduro is the "legitimate" president bears no weight in whether this is a coup. He is the president for all practical purposes as far as the Venezuelan state machinery goes the attempt of military cliques to overthrow him is a coup. And yes the USA definitely cares about Venezuela otherwise they wouldn't try to form a coalition to invade it. News media did initially call it a coup but after political pressure they changed it to "uprising" so pretty much the same as it happened on here. Red Greek Revolution (talk) 02:30, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that the operation is called "Operation Liberty". We may use that as an article name. Cambalachero (talk) 22:26, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the name mentioned in a few sources. However, it seems to be Guaido's name for the event, and I am in favor of the current article title. SamHolt6 (talk) 22:39, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, a military operation whose name is the name given by those who carried it out. Isn't that a standard? Operation Overlord was named so by the Allies, and nobody has a problem with that. Cambalachero (talk) 23:20, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would contend that it’s best to hold off on assigning a particular name to this event. It will likely become clearer as events proceed; I seem to recall 2018 Armenian revolution going through different names before a final one was decided upon. For now, let’s stick to the most neutral and frankly nondescript wording, because it is eminently unclear what is actually going on. Cwilson97 (talk) 00:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rebels

OK, who keeps changing "ran over civilians" to the POV "ran over rebels", and what is that about? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

APC

Someone keeps changing tank to APC: is a ballena an APC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: its blatant OR on my part, but the vehicle seen in the widely-publicized video is an APC, not a tank. Maybe describing it as an armored vehicle is best, as the term describes both tanks and APCs. SamHolt6 (talk) 19:37, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Sam ... could you make the adjustment? I don't really know the correct term. Armored vehicle might cover it ... I am struggling to get through sources so I can actually add some content! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Added.--SamHolt6 (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Check ?

Did I hear this right? If so, can be added under Events: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:56, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Defections

United States National Security Adviser John R. Bolton stated in a press conference that Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino, Supreme Court justice Maikel Moreno, and the head of Maduro's PresidentialGuard, Iván Hernández Dala, had agreed that Maduro needed to go.[1]

References

  1. ^ https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/04/30/national-security-advisor-john-bolton-on-venezuela-protests.html
This seems to shed some light on that, and there's lots of info in this source that can be added. https://www.dw.com/en/venezuela-coup-or-uprising-it-depends-on-who-you-support/a-48555362 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:05, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Saved by an IP

Oh my,[3] that was quite a mistake. Saved by an IP, and no way to thank them![4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:21, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ongoing

Should we add the article to the Main Page's Ongoing Section? Emperor Anzong of Song or The Huangdi of Song China (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is an ongoing discussion Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#2019 Venezuela coup attempt. But have in mind that "being in the news" is not enough for inclusion (there are hundreds of things in the news, all the time). Many users prefer to wait until we have a clear picture of how does this turn out. You can join the discussion, but provide strong reasons. Cambalachero (talk) 23:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should we add injured to infobox?

And if so, the BBC currently lists it as 69 Kingsif (talk) 22:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should we delete the infobox entirely, so we don't have to have this conversation about infobox bloat :) :) The BBC 69 is in the article already. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:56, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dumbass ridiculous stupid infoboxes just make work. Especially when people drive by and stick stuff in there that needs to be fixed, and don't update the article. Why exactly do we need to create double work with infobox bloat? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:38, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Disinformation

A hilariously biased article on Venezuela yet again. I expect no less from Wikipedia. If the opposition were as good at contesting elections as they are at spreading disinformation, there would be no need for a coup. 78.144.216.235 (talk) 00:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Have you a reliable source you would like included? Please see WP:V and WP:RS; otherwise, WP:NOTAFORUM may help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:17, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"But I know the truth!" 84percent (talk) 01:01, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maduro denial, Washington Post

Folks, please keep in mind that the Washington Post is paywalled, and most cannot access it. (Meaning if you stick an unformatted citation to the Washington Post saying someone died in the infobox, not everyone can clean up the mess.) This source has been added to the article, but I can't read it, and according to the title, we need to add Maduro's denial to Pompeo's statement. Might someone please do that ? If you can add his denial, just use ref name= MaduroDenies/ because it is already in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • ref name=MaduroDenies
    • Zuñiga, Mariana (30 April 2019). "Venezuela's Maduro denies Pompeo's claim that he sought to escape to Cuba after day of clashes that left 1 dead, dozens hurt". The Washington Post. Retrieved 30 April 2019.
Just FYI: If you hit the X button next to the URL as soon as the article text appears (you do need to be quick) you can read the article without giving the site the chance to load the "PLEASE INSERT PAYMENT TO READ DEMOCRACY NOT DYING IN DARKNESS" element a chance to load. 199.247.45.42 (talk) 07:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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