Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies

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Transgender marriage is not Same-sex marriage

We should split this article. --Sharouser (talk) 05:05, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I think for a majority of people, it’s considered the same, or close enough to be treated the same. Gleeanon409 (talk) 05:35, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

@Sharouser: Do you have a significant chunk of sources on transgender marriage that aren't about the implications, for couples where one or both parties are trans, of same-sex marriage being legal or illegal? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:57, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

@Roscelese and *Treker: There are many academic articles or newses about transgender marriage. --Sharouser (talk) 10:24, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

What the majority of laymen think doesn't really mater. There is an abundance of coverage on the topic of transgender marriage, therefore it is notable and can have its own article.★Trekker (talk) 10:56, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I was going by what seemed to an absence of anything in the article on the subject. If there is an abundance of reliable sources available then by all means have at it! Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:58, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't going to comment here, but I decided to after seeing the sourcing and WP:Notability claims above. Sharouser states, "There are many academic articles or newses about transgender marriage." *Treker states, "There is an abundance of coverage on the topic of transgender marriage." Where? I've looked. There certainly are not many on regular Google, Google Books, or Google Scholar. There are barely any. All I see are brief mentions using the term "transgender marriage" and usually talking about it in the context of same-sex marriage. This 2012 "Transgender 101: A Simple Guide to a Complex Issue" source, from Columbia University Press, page 27, asks if transgender marriage is the same as gay marriage. It says it depends, and goes on to state why. This 2005 "New York City Law Review, Volumes 9-10" source, from City University of New York School of Law, page 212, states, "Although transgender marriage is not necessarily homosexual marriage, the two are often collapsed, especially when the original birth-sex of the transgender spouse is the same as the sex of the non-transgender spouse. However, this conception of transgender marriage is limited." It then goes on to state why it thinks this.

Where are the sources speaking of "transgender marriage" as its own entity? How does one define "transgender marriage"? Who says that it's a marriage where at least one transgender person is the spouse, as opposed to both being transgender, like this incarnation stated? What if one or both partners do not consider it a transgender marriage, but rather a heterosexual marriage or a gay marriage? Also, the Same-sex marriage article having a section on transgender and intersex people is not stating that "transgender marriage"or "intersex marriage" is necessarily the same thing as same-sex marriage. Poor content aside, that content is in the article because it's relevant to the topic, whether or not the topics should have their own Wikipedia articles. And while we're on the subject, I don't see anyone trying to create an Intersex marriage article. What is an intersex marriage?

No need to ping me if you reply. In fact, please don't ping me. I can check back. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Flyer. @Sharouser: where is this "abundance of coverage" of transgender marriage that isn't just "how are trans people affected by the legality or illegality of same-sex marriage"? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:06, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

In many jurifications, transgender people can sustain their marriage if their partner still love them and if he or she gives up legal gender change. However, many married transgenders suffer divorces. ([1]). In Nikki Araguz case, Thomas' two sons claimed that their father didn't knew Nikki's transgender status when Nikki married. ([2]) --Sharouser (talk) 12:51, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

@Sharouser: The source about Nikki explicitly points out that the reason for the legal trouble was that same-sex marriage was not legal in Texas and that therefore two people who were legally considered men could not marry. If this were about whether or not suddenly learning your spouse was trans were grounds for an annulment or something because of deception, that might be another matter, but this case is literally just about how same-sex marriage law affects trans people. The first source you linked is better, and does go further into the social dynamics of a married person transitioning. I'm still not sure, however, that this in itself is sufficient to support an article on "transgender marriage". Do you have other sources on this, ideally not just news? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:40, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

@Roscelese: The reason for the legal trouble included that the firefighter's heirs thought that their father didn't know that his wife is transsexual. There are many articles about gender history and cancellability or divorce of transgender marriage by "deception". See Transgender Marriage and the Legal Obligation to Disclose Gender History --Sharouser (talk) 14:41, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

@Roscelese: Because I provided enough evidence, I will retore the article. This legal article in JSTOR is an enough evidence. --Sharouser (talk) 06:16, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sharouser: That's also a potentially usable source. You seem to be on the right track, as far as finding sources is concerned - are there more? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:22, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

@Roscelese: Can this marriage be saved? Addressing male-to-female transgender issues in couples therapy. I found another article. --Sharouser (talk) 14:25, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Roscelese: Because I provided enough evidences, I will retore the article. --Sharouser (talk) 01:38, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Sharouser, you shouldn't. WP:GNG is still not met, no consensus for it has appeared, and the version you keep trying to restore is mostly WP:OR and has a mere two sentences with sources - the rest cannot be restored per WP:BURDEN. Crossroads ^-talk- 02:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I found a source about "In some cases, a non-transgender spouse wants to cancel their marriage when they noticed their spouse is transgender and the spouse had hidden their identity at the wedding.". Other sentences do not need references. The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged. --Sharouser (talk) 15:10, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

And I challenged it, and so you cannot restore it. Don't refer to WP:V out of context; it also states, Wikipedia does not publish original research....Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. Again, WP:BURDEN (part of WP:V) says, The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. WP:OR is absolutely not allowed, no matter how "common sense" you think it is, or even if it is true, because readers need it to be verifiable. And you ignored the issue with WP:GNG. You need to first find multiple reliable secondary sources with non-trivial coverage of this as a distinct topic to demonstrate that WP:GNG is met. Then write based on that. Crossroads ^-talk- 17:08, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Why do you think WP:GNG is still not met? --Sharouser (talk) 01:07, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Why do you think that some sentences are unverified? --Sharouser (talk) 14:48, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I will restore this article in May. I will insert more references. --Sharouser (talk) 12:23, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

It would certainly be possible to write an article about transgender marriage as a separate topic from same-sex marriage — but what's less clear is that the last version of a separate article about transgender marriage was actually doing enough to justify a standalone article. The key to making a topic notable enough for an article, in most circumstances, is not just to write the bare minimum required to demonstrate that the topic exists — for a separate article to be justified, it would be necessary to write considerably more about the topic than its current subsection in the same-sex marriage article already says, and to cite considerably more referencing than just three anecdotal news stories. It's true that they're not precisely the same thing, but they do have a fair amount of overlap, particularly in the way institutional recognition or non-recognition of gender impacts whether a transgender person's marriage is considered to be "opposite sex" or "same sex" for legal purposes — so even if it's not ideal, the current situation isn't bad. But to justify a standalone article about transgender marriage, you have to put more effort into a standalone article than you actually did. Bearcat (talk) 16:23, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

The linked section in same-sex marriage begins: The legal status of same-sex marriage may have implications for the marriages of couples in which one or both parties are transgender, depending on how sex is defined within a jurisdiction. To me, this is not an implication that marriage involving a transgender person is same-sex (and of course such an implication would be false). These implications seem relevant to discuss at same-sex marriage, at least to some degree, but the topic should also get some coverage at transgender rights. I don't oppose the creation of a new article transgender marriage if there is sufficient sourcing—and I would expect that there is. Or perhaps the article could be titled Gender identity and marriage, particularly if there is enough material about marriage in historical cultures which recognised a third gender. — Bilorv (talk) 08:14, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Coronavirus

I'm inviting project members to help improve Impact of the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic on the LGBT community.

Stay safe, and happy editing, --Another Believer _(Talk) 03:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

User:Another Believer: I think we may need to add more about the increased risk of homelessness. Are there enough RS about it to add a subsection or a paragraph please?Zigzig20s (talk) 15:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Transgender and transsexual scientists

I think that we should restore this category. --Sharouser (talk) 14:48, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Is there any other opinion? --Sharouser (talk) 12:23, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Is Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality a B-class article?

I believe that Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality meets this WikiProject's C-class criteria, but not B-class. Two other editors disagree. I am therefore posting this question at the three WikiProjects with interest in the article—the other two are WP:PSYCH and WP:BOOK. Please weigh in at Talk:Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality#Article rating. Thank you   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 22:19, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Y Another topic has superseded this one. Please contribute your insights at Talk: Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality#Request for Comments (RfC) - Stalemate regarding undue weight. Thanks   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 18:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Shahin Shahablou

I'm begging you all please to help improve this new stub. Bearian (talk) 00:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

RFC at Oscar Wilde

There's an RFC underway at Talk:Oscar Wilde:

What is the best option for the lead image (See mos:LEADIMAGE)?

Your participation would be welcome! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter

This article seems, understandably, to attract opinionated edits and could probably benefit from being watchlisted a little more widely. XOR'easter (talk) 04:32, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

BiNet USA and the Bisexual pride flag

Hello! Please be advised that Twitter account @BiNetUSA is very interested in changes to Wikipedia that would state that their organization owns legal rights to the bisexual pride flag. See here. I have attempted to direct them here, that they may effectively be put in touch with community contributors who can swiftly assess the validity of these claims and offer them a candid assessment on the viability of this request. -Fennec 19:04, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• Never mind, it appears the backlash has made them realize the speciousness of their claim without a need for further intervention. But keep an eye out for shenanigans :) — Fennec 22:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
  • They'd need strong proof of copyright, followed by an excellent argument why they’ve never worked to protect their alleged copyright until now. Gleeanon409 (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject RuPaul Drag Race's Collaboration for May 2020: RuPaul's Secret Celebrity Drag Race

WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race's Collaboration of the Month for May 2020: RuPaul's Secret Celebrity Drag Race

Happy editing! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Dorian Electra

Does this person identify as trans? I noticed this when one editor flagged it as needing citation (with a somewhat off-base edit summary) and another editor undid that, but the citations in the article contain no explicit self-ID as trans, and indeed a source from a couple years go has an explicit self-ID as cis ([3]); if that's changed beyond the self-ID as genderfluid, I would expect a clear statement but haven't spotted one in a reliable source yet). So, additional eyes / help sorting this out would be helpful. -sche (talk) 14:35, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

RfC opened for Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality

Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality is within the scope of WP:LGBT.

 Question: To what extent should this article discuss the scientific consensus on reparative/conversion therapy's potential harms and benefits?

→ Share your insights and suggestions at Request for Comments (RfC) - Stalemate regarding undue weight.

Thank you!   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 18:30, 1 May 2020 (UTC)   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 18:11, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Personal story published, also summarize in The Signpost?

• Stein, Abby (26 April 2020). "'I prayed to God to make me a girl'". BBC News.

In this personal story a person talks about how Wikipedia gave them info about LGBT culture.

In The Signpost every issue gives a summary of Wikipedia in third-party media. Would anyone here care to revise my suggested summary of this article for the next issue? 1-2 sentences is appropriate. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Next_issue/In_the_media. Thanks. Also, anyone can submit content to The Signpost, which is always looking for stories. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

New LGBT related movie

Bit (film) - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:26, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Corey Johnson (politician) vs. Samaritan’s Purse

I could use some help and more eyes on a POV wonky section currently named “Descrimination in healthcare”. A newer Wikipedian wants to position it as a freedom of religion issue but I think the sources support a different reading. Also the section title might need amending but I’m not sure what’s best. Gleeanon409 (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Massive removal of properties in Wikidata affecting redlinks list

Just as a FYI, Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Missing biographies of LGBQ people have lost a few items due to a undiscussed and unexpected "cleanup" of wikidata related to sexual orientations, resulting in the removal of 1500 entries out of 3000 (if I am not wrong). The local LGBTQ project is working on adding the items back and checking them, but this is quite slow and take time. So all help is welcome, see the discussion here, and phabricator. We are also working on making sure the same do not happen to the gender property (P21). --Misc (talk) 15:09, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

RfC at Alliance Defending Freedom

This RfC may be of interest to the members of this group. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:55, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Help LGBTYS address page vandalism

Hello team, I wonder if I might be able to ask for some advice and support. I manage the website for LGBT Youth Scotland - the biggest youth organisation for LGBT young people in Scotland. We're a thriving youth work organisation with a good reputation.

The last edits our staff made to [Wikipedia page] were way back in 2007, so it's been rather neglected for years. We were recently alerted that our Wikipedia page has been edited at some length by a user whose goal appears to be discrediting our organisation by repeatedly featuring uncensored details of a serious crime committed by a staff member in 2009. They have added references to this individual and their crime, in graphic detail, in multiple places on our Wiki page. They have also misrepresented multiple other facts that we can refute, and added lots of small incorrect details (like misspelling our Chief Exec's name and getting our funding details wrong). Most of all, I'm concerned that the graphic descriptions of sexual assault that were added are really unsuitable for the Wiki page of a young people's organisation.

I'm very aware that any edits I now make to this page have the potential of being reverted by that user. With input from my colleagues, I'll be adding substantial (accurate!) new content to the page over the next few weeks and addressing the factual errors. I wonder if there is any advice or support you could offer me in undertaking this? We're new to Wikipedia editing and I am conscious that our page will always be a target of malicious users. As trans rights have been questioned and put at risk recently in the UK, we have increasingly been the target of people who disagree with our mission of supporting trans young people. It's entirely possible that the motivation for these malicious page edits has been driven by that movement. Your help is gratefully received.

LGBTYS2020 (talk) 16:00, 12 May 2020 (UTC)