Talk:United States soccer league system

Level 2 vs. Level 3

The pyramid currently lists level two as NASL and level three as USL. Where is a source stating that the USSF has sanctioned the leagues in that manner. While people may believe that the NASL is a better league, it deals completely with sanctioning and until the source is present they are both Division 2 leagues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.42.247 (talk) 17:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

This is not a matter of opinion; as of right now, the NASL has applied for and received provisional Division 2 ranking, and the USL-Pro has only applied for Division 3. There's a blog post describing the USSF press release here; don't know if that's an appropriate source for the article but someone should be able to find the original release. 38.126.149.234 (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

And now that same blog wrote yesterday that the provisional sanctioning will not translate into official sanctioning for 2011, according to USSF sources in this post.

Dohertypenguin (talk) 22:01, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

2009 Reorganization

Reflecting the comments below and in the spirit of Wikipedia:Be bold, I have entirely reworked the men's pyramid, in the process:

• Replacing the "1, 2, 3" levels with the actual levels recognized by the USSF
• Removing the USASA "divisions" 5-13, since there didn't seem to be any real basis for these distinctions
• Removed the comprehensive list of USASA leagues, which seems to me to fit better on the USASA page
• Removing the PCSL entirely, as it no longer has American teams or is recognized by the USSF, and therefore should be on the Canadian soccer pyramid page instead.

Comments and edits welcome, of course. --Chapka (talk) 21:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Moved the information on individual USASA teams to an already existing page and linked--Chapka (talk) 17:06, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Returned the "levels" designation to match both the women's chart and the English pyramid not to mention the references in several other related wiki pages.

Also returned USASA to level 5 to differentiate between it and the PDL/NPSL. USASA's own website says regional/national leagues promote a higher level of competition (http://www.usasa.com/About/Structure/index_E.html) plus Donnelly Cup is only for USASA in-state leagues. It may be worth discussing whether to separate out the two regional leagues into their own level. Dtrowe (talk) 14:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Refernces in other wiki pages an arbitrary numbering system aren't good enough to justify the system. The fact is, there is no American "pyramid" in the English sense (in the men's or women's game) and I don't see the point of pretending there is. There is no reference for calling the USASA "Level 5"; at best it's a matter of opinion where the various leagues sit on any "pyramid," and that doesn't seem appropriate for Wikipedia. If you have to discuss where to put them on the pyramid, you're making a judgment call, not a factual entry. As for the USASA, there's a case for splitting them up into USASA national leagues (the PDL and NPSL), regional, and state leagues, but it seems to me these should be labeled as such and not arbitrarily assigned numbers 4 through 6.--Chapka (talk) 17:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

By your definition, this page shouldn't even exist. I don't believe there is an official English pyramid either, not that I was able to find on the FA website. If you look at the references for that pyramid, it's from another website that states it collects information from the FA and other leagues and assumes there are feeders between the leagues. It seems that the English pyramid is based on research of all the different regional leagues and how they relate to one another, using the generic term "level" to show placement in the scheme of things. Same goes for the American pyramid. We could ask if amateur leagues should logically be placed below the pro leagues on the pyramid, or a separate pyramid all together. I'd say there's general consensus that amateur falls below pro in sports in general. I believe the intent of this page and others like it is to show a single pyramid consistent with other country's pyramids, and to provide a comparable view. In any case, the term "level" is used extensively throughout this wiki in reference to soccer, both American and other. Any decisions to change that term here should ideally be weighed against making the changes in all related pages. Your mileage may vary :) Dtrowe (talk) 19:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

NPSL

What level is the NPSL? It's amateur and draws from largely the same pool of players as the PDL. As such, it seems to be clearly below the USL Second Division and at the fourth level along with the PDL. --Balerion 22:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Does this exist?

This is a fine article and I think that it definitely provides clarity for the American soccer system, but I feel that the article is an imposition of the structure of European soccer associations onto the American soccer leagues.

I think the article should be more clear on the fact that many of these leagues are completely and wholly separate and that this pyramid is in no way official. 49giantsharks 05:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What you refer to in regards to imposing European flair into the article is correct. HOWEVER, the "levels" on the pyramid look like they follow FIFA sanctioned guidelines for competitive levels (USL-1 is classified by FIFA as a Tier-2 league, USL-2 as Tier 3, MLS as Tier-1, etc etc etc). But this clearly needs to be noted. Burdman 17:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think having small separations (if possible) between separate leagues would be good, and it may not affect the overall shape of the pyramid. For example, MLS would be at the top, followed by a small space, the USL-1. The third tier would look weird though. It would have no space between USL-1 and USL-2, but the space between USL-1 and the other 2 leagues. Greecepwns (#1 Red Bulls Supporter) (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I am suspicious as to the 'officialness' of the PCSL & NPSL being level IV (see my posts on the relevant talk pages). If they are not, and we could confirm that, we could drop them down to level 5 with the USASA (or move the USASA to a 6th level) and institute the small breaks between MLS and USL-1 and between USL-PDL and etc., without problem. Gecko G (talk) 10:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Globalise Tag

I fail to understand how a league that fields teams from multiple countries is only an "American league" or pyramid of "American leagues". There are no references to support the claim that the league(s), despite including international clubs, are solely American (USA). —Muckapædia 15^e mai 2007, 1h00 (UTC+0900) 머크백과 TALK/ CONTRIBS

I believe the intention was "North American," not necessarily "American." But that said, American is a very broad term and does not refer to the United States. America refers to all the countries of North, South, and Central America. Now, even with this, Mexico has a different structure. This purely encompasses Canada and the United States. The usage of the word "American" is partially correct, but incorrectly included Mexico. However, there are teams from the Caribbean as well. I would advocate "North American Soccer Pyramid," but, again, Mexico would be unfairly included.

That is, unless the entire page is edited to include the Mexican leagues.

A better name is needed. Burdman 17:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think American soccer pyramid is fine, and that American does in fact refer to the United States. Ask anybody around the world, except possibly Mexico, and they'd know that American means from the USA. There's only one Canadian team in the MLS, and as far as I know the Canadian leagues are separate. If you really want to, we could change it to United States Soccer Pyramid. --AW 20:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Muckapædia- I believe the intent was originally to have the article be American and [some] Canadian. The Puerto Rico and Bermuda references are only for a single team each, much like how there is a welsh team in the english pyramid and I belive some teams ignore which side of the border they are on in England/Scotland and Ireland/Northern Ireland IIRC (and since Puerto Rico is an American Commonwealth, the point could be argued to be moot in it's case, but that's an aside).

Given the confused state of professional soccer in the US and Canada before the 1990's, no clear system nor heirarchy arose in either country. Sure, some organizations and leagues came and went (ie NASL) but no long lasting heirarchy nor system emerged until the consolidation of the USL from the merging of the USISL and the A-League. And the USISL and A-League (and later the USL) both followed the example of most major sports in US & Canada (ie Baseball, Basketball, Hockey) and included teams from both sides of the border. Thus Canadian soccer was in the partially merged situation where its 'officially' top teams played in the USL even though a good argument could be that the best Canadian competition was one or another of the local (solely Canadian), chaotic (in terms of organization/heirarchy) competitons. As this consolidation was taking place, the MLS was created in the US, officially above the USL. Now Canada was in the very odd situation where it's official top division was the American lower division, but still unofficially the local chaotic situation could of been considered unofficially equal (or even higher). Starting this season, a single Canadian team has been created within the MLS (and there are rumors of more in the future) so now they are back to the previous situation. For more examples, see the discussion they are having at Talk:Canadian_soccer_pyramid where they are having trouble determining the Canadian Pyramid since the CSL has some (de-facto or official, I'm not sure) recognition from FIFA as "the national league" (despite it only being in 2 of the provinces) but at the same time the USL-1 was previously (or is currently) rated as the Canadian Div I. (FIFA has not yet addressed the issue of the creation of a Canadian MLS team). Meanwhile, the CONCACAF website even reads that there is "no division one championship" and last I had checked the Canadian Confederation website only made indirect references to the provincial teams as the top level.

This is also a big part of why when Canada was given a spot in the new Champions League they had to create a special tournament to determine Canada's entrant to it whereas all the other countries entrants appear to be determined based on domestic Div I league results (or the Caribbean championship for which entry into it is in turn based on caribbean domestic Div I league results). Previously I think Canada was considered part of the unofficial "Northern Zone" of CONCACAF but in actuality had no representation in international club competitions (I had hoped that this new Superliga would emerge in this kind of role but that now appears unlikely).

It should also be noted that in Canada and the US, the national federations have a more hands off approach to organizing professional competitions than I believe is the case in other countries. Thus seperate organizations (not directly responsible to FIFA's organizational scheme) arose which followed the common northern North American sports economic model which "ignores" the American/Canadian border.

Burdman- In the past, wasn't there a couple of northern Mexican teams in one of the shortlived American leagues? Or was that in Indoor Soccer?

AW- Actually, in many parts of the america's outside of the US, the common confusion between American (meaning of the North or South America Continents) and American (meaning of the United States of America) can be a touchy subject, and they view it that we Americans (meaning of the USA) have usurped and horded the noun. Hence, on here on the 'globalized' Wikipedia, both America and American take you to what are effectively little more than disambiguation pages. But in general, depending on the context, yes it is usually understood which is meant.

all- sorry for rambling on for so long. I hope my words are coherent. Gecko G (talk) 11:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

USASA entry

Rather than having a woefully incomplete and partial listing of a few leagues from the USASA, wouldn't it be better to just list something like "4 Geographic regions" or such? Or perhaps mention that it is organized into 55 state associtiations? Though that latter would exclude the two Region I "Regional Leagues" (CLS & MSSL). Gecko G (talk) 10:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the English Football League System article, there is a list of every league at every level and mention that they run in parallel (although they actually have promotion and relegation). You think we should do the same? Greecepwns (#1 Red Bulls Supporter) (talk) 17:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Greetings. It would be great if we could get that level of detail, but as it is now it makes it look like there is only 17 leagues at level 5. If we could get a complete list from all 55 USASA state associations AND keep that list updated, that would be excellent, but I do not think it is possible to do... in some states the structure is constantly in flux. Since we can't do that, I am suggesting that instead we simply list one or another of the subdivisions that the USASA is broken into (either the 4 regions or the 55 state assoc.). Alternately we could keep it as is but then we need to put some note or explanation that the 17 (or however many) listed leagues are only a sampling of the many leagues at this level. Thank you, Gecko G (talk) 07:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Greetings again. Let me try again to explain more clearly. If we could fully develop the level V entry like in the English Football League System article, that would be great, be we don't have enough information to do so. Therefore, I propose that we follow the examples of some of the other league system articles like Romania level IV or Sweden levels IV-X and list something like "level V and lower: Various leagues run by USASA entities". Alternatively, perhaps we could develop something like the French system article. Gecko G (talk) 10:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Well I've just added complete information of every USASA affiliated league and their lower divisions. Now what do you think? Greecepwns (talk) 22:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Cup Eligibily Secition

What do you think of this as another section?

US Open Cup: All levels
George F. Donnelly Cup: Level 5

Greecepwns (#1 Red Bulls Supporter) (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Good job on this --Ceezmad (talk) 21:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

USASA Multi-Division Leagues

Some of the USASA leagues have more than one division. Should we have an extra step for these divisions or just leave it as is?Greecepwns (talk) 18:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The term "pyramid"

I'm concerned that the article (and indeed the comments above) seem to indicate that there's no actual pyramid system in place in the US, and that this is an imposition of an English term to refer to the collective football leagues in the Americas. If this is the case (and the disparity of the various league organisations, together with the lack of a serious promotion system, strongly indicates that it is) then these articles (both this one and the Canadian soccer pyramid) should be retitled and reorganised to reflect this. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Given the fact that the article relating to the English "soccer pyramid" is located at English football league system, I would suggest that this article be moved to American soccer league system. – PeeJay 11:30, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not just that, though: the whole article is based around fitting the various leagues into a hierarchy which arguably doesn't really exist. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with PeeJay's renaming to American soccer league system / Candian soccer league system. As noted before it's a non-exsistant heirachy as there is no promotion/relegation, so therefore teams cannot progress to the top level of the pyramid. In England, a team from the bottom of the pyramid can technically reach the top. --Jimbo^[online] 12:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

There may be no promotion and relegation, but surely there is a general consensus as to the relative levels of the various leagues, no? – PeeJay 12:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

How do you prove MLS is a higher tier than the USL-1? After all they're both national divisions, but the MLS is split into regional leagues, whereas the USL-1 just has the one? Obviously the USD is a feeder a should be below either, but is it really on par with the NPSL and PCSL? --Jimbo^[online] 12:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

If that helps, the MLS Cup champions and runners-up, as well as the MLS Supporters' Shield champions and runners-up competes in the Champions League, while no USL-1 teams is granted a spot in that competition. --Carioca (talk) 20:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Whether there is "consensus" or not, if it isn't an official designation then we shouldn't go presenting it as factual. This article strongly implies that there is a hierarchy. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

For many years previous to the 1980s, If I'm not mistaken, there was a de facto understanding that though teams from the Football Conference could theoretically be elected and promoted to the Football League, unless one of the League sides folded or underwent some similar crisis, the 92 teams in the Football League had a monopoly on professional football in England. Despite this situation, the entire English league setup has always been considered part of the same system. In this same light, though there is no system by which an MLS side can be relegated to USL-1 as of now, there is a standing agreement that if a USL team has a proper stadium agreement and enough cash (lower than the standard franchise fee) MLS will accept them into the league and give them extra benefits from a normal expansion side. AFAIK parts of this deal will go into effect when Seattle Sounders FC join the league and any Seattle Sounders player from the USL-1 team's roster can be contracted by the MLS team without having to go through the allocation system as with all other acquisitions. I would also point out that U.S. Soccer recognizes MLS as the country's top league with USL (USL-1, USL-2, and the PDL) being just below them in the league system. Some of this is simply an informal agreement, and other parts are just de facto situations, but to deny that this system has a lot in common with the league systems present in virtually every other footballing nation in the world is preposterous, and for no other purpose than to use the most common terminology available, the articles should remain at their current locations, and should be referred to in this and other article as such. -- Grant.Alpaugh 19:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with PeeJay's renaming, but to United States soccer league system and Canadian soccer league system. Are there any external references to an "American Soccer Pyramid"? FJM (talk) 15:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There are three official levels to the American soccer pyramid for men and women: these are Division I, Division II, and Division III, which are set by the United States Soccer Federation and correspond to levels 1, 2, and 3 as they exist now; see Policy 202 in this PDF. The remaining levels are all amateur, and are divided into categories based on participation by US Soccer. Divisions I-III are definitely U.S. designations and not North American designations. They may contain teams from other countries and be certified by other nations as well, but the U.S. soccer pyramid consists of those leagues recognized by U.S. Soccer and I think that's a meaningful distinction There is a separate Canadian soccer pyramid article that includes many of the same leagues, which seems like the right solution to me.--Chapka (talk) 20:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Pyramid vs League system

I'd like to restart discussion concerning the name of the article. Should this page be renamed United States soccer league system or be kept as is? The term "league system" seems to be a generic name for a hierarchy of leagues run by a federation. I'd assume this consensus exists all over Wikipedia as the United States and Canadian articles are the only ones using the pyramid term. Is there a reason for this? --Blackbox77 (talk) 04:16, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

MSL Reserve League

Where in the pyramid should we include the MLS Reserve Division? Maybe 2nd along with NASL?--Coquidragon (talk) 06:25, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Nowhere. It's not part of the pyramid. JonBroxton (talk) 16:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

In what sense? As far as I can tell the "pyramid" is something pulled out of thin air to make up this article! While the top 3 leagues can arguably be ranked, everything below that (including which teams are or are not included) seem arbitrary. Kevinatilusa

2012 revision

I've moved the content here from the American soccer pyramid article. This naming is consistent with all of the soccer league system articles from around the world, many of which more resemble a "pyramid" (with promotion and relegation) than the United States does.

I've rewritten the introduction to reflect the new name, renamed most of the sections, and made updates and stylistic changes to the content where appropriate. I've also removed references to the old 15-tier or so division that was on this page before the last overhaul.Chapka (talk) 15:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I completed the above move by deleting the page/moving the pyramid page here and then undeleting the edits in order to fully merge the histories in compliance with WP:CUTPASTE and WP:COPYWITHIN --Trödel 18:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this. I looks like the only other country that used the pyramid name in its article was Canada. We may need to change Canadian soccer pyramid too. --Blackbox77 (talk) 01:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Complete --Trödel 13:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Classifying USASA Elite Amateur Leagues

I think the table revision placing the USASA Elite Amateur Leagues at the same level as the fourth-division nationwide leagues, while well-intentioned, probably made the lower portion of the pyramid less accurate than before. It's commonly held that the level of play in the PDL and NPSL is higher than that of the EALs, which is in turn somewhat higher than that in USCS and the USASA state leagues (the latter assertion is supported by the fact that USASA gave the EALs special classification to begin with). I'm not aware of any recent change in how any of these leagues are classified (or not) by USSF or USASA.

The prior version of the table that featured the EALs as spanning the fourth and fifth divisions was probably more accurate, given the somewhat ambiguous classifications of these leagues. I'll probably revert this revision in the near future unless there's some objection. --Strongpoint (talk) 04:12, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know how to judge the USCS in relation to others, but I definately agree about the PDL/NPSL vs. the EAL's. However, the previous version had the EAL's at the same level (at least overlapping) as the USASA state leagues. Are not the EAL's considered higher than the state leagues?

just spit ballin' here but maybe move the EAL's to level 5*, have USCS span 5* & 6*, and have the USASA State League's span 6* and a new collum labeled something like ">6*"? I had tried to figure it all out years ago, but never did. Gecko G (talk) 05:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, what about this. PDL/NPSL at level 4*, and a ≥5* row with EALs spanning across the top, and USCS and USASA State Leagues below? I could mock something up, but you appear to have a better grasp of table construction in Wiki markup than I do (I can figure it out, but it would take me a while).--Strongpoint (talk) 22:00, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

It sounds like you are describing something like this:

<! COPY PASTE WIKICODE BELOW THIS POINT IF THIS GET'S USED>

4*	Affiliated through United States Adult Soccer Association (USASA)
	United Soccer Leagues Premier Development League (PDL) 56 clubs (in 4 conferences) (plus 8 Canadian clubs) Central Conference Eastern Conference Southern Conference Western Conference	National Premier Soccer League (NPSL) 78 clubs (in 4 regions) Northeast Region South Region Midwest Region West Region
≥5*	USASA Elite Amateur Leagues 11 State & Regional Leagues Coast Soccer League (South California) Cosmopolitan Soccer League (New Jersey, East New York) Long Island Soccer Football League Maryland Major Soccer League Mighican Premier Soccer League Rochester District Soccer League San Francisco Soccer Football League United Soccer League of Pennsylvania United Premier Soccer League (South California) Washington Premier Soccer League (Metro DC, Virginia, & Maryland) Evergreen Premier League (Washington State)
	US Club Soccer (USCS) 39 leagues in 4 regions East Region Midwest Region South Region West Region	United States Adult Soccer Association state leagues 55 state associations in 4 regions See List of USASA affiliated leagues for complete list Region I Region II Region III Region IV

 * The tiers or levels here are approximate and not specifically so designated by USSF.

<! END OF COPY PASTE SECTION>

Is that what you mean? I supose that could work, but I'd like to hear feedback from others. Cheers, Gecko G (talk) 01:04, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's almost exactly what I was envisioning. Let's see how it flies.--Strongpoint (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

US CLUB SOCCER - THE NATIONAL ADULT LEAGUES IS 4TH TIER OF SOCCER IN THE UNITED STATES, NOT 5TH. PLEASE CHANGE. THANK YOU.

For somereason a signbot is not coming around to mention that the above was by One100ton. In any event, @One100ton: - are you saying the USCS is level 4 or that the National Adult League specifically is 4th tier? In either case, got a source for that? Gecko G (talk) 03:46, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to need some convincing on that one, especially since USCS didn't even receive a full U.S. Open Cup bid before 2013, compared with eight for the NPSL and 16 for the USL-PDL in the current format. Even the USASA regional leagues receive eight bids. And as far as I can tell, USCS doesn't even sanction a nationwide league.--Strongpoint (talk) 04:37, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Without any substantive disagreement for some time, I'm implementing this new table. Please let me know if there are any issues. Strongpoint (talk) 19:24, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Leagues/Divisions table

Shouldn't the last level be "≤5*" and not "≥5*"? The current label says that the teams are no lower than 5th level, when what is meant is that they rank no higher than 5th level. --Khajidha (talk) 13:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I took it to mean "a number equal to or greater than 5," but I can certainly see how it could be read either way. Strongpoint (talk) 00:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

hmm... you're right, it can be confusing. It's that the number of the level is 5 or Higher, meaning a league of 5 or Lower. Is the current "5+" any clearer in that regard? Gecko G (talk) 11:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that will be fine. --Khajidha (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

ASL's place in the pyramid

So after allowing for a long discussion period about implementing revisions to the Men's Leagues table, I went ahead and put the new version into play ... and soon afterward, Trödel went ahead and added the American Soccer League to the table without any discussion.

I don't want to just jump in with a reversion, especially as there's some room for discussion about where ASL actually stands. Apparently it's a pro league that aspires to third-division status -- equal to USL Pro -- which if implemented would certainly put it above the NPSL and the USL-PDL, but that's not the case at the moment. Right now, it's a small (geographically as well as numerically) regional league with an indirect sanction through USASA, not directly from USSF, which would seem to place it below the NPSL and USL-PDL.

Thoughts? --Strongpoint (talk) 01:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Made changes that I think will address your concerns --Trödel 17:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks to me like it's in the same boat as the National Adult League (see discussion above). Like with the NAL, the only apparent source for it's standing is a dead link to it's own website. The only thing I can find is a passing mention on the Mass United FC website about the ASL being a "sanctioned league" of the USASA, but I have no clue what that means (if anything, or if it's even true). Until there's some confirmation or more established history and recognition of these two leagues, I wouldn't put them in the body of the table - perhaps in a footnote, or perhaps in the text of the article, but not in the body of the table. Gecko G (talk) 11:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

While I appreciate Trödel's effort, it doesn't address the underlying problem -- the ASL's position is neither definitely above nor below the USL-PDL and the NPSL, but is instead indeterminate at this time. We should keep this conversation open, as its position will become more clear over time, but until then I think Gecko G's approach is probably the most prudent. Strongpoint (talk) 20:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

If we want to change it to a footnote because of lack of references that is fine with me, and I think we should include the NAL also. However, as to the argument that it's place is indeterminate that is true for all the leagues at level "4 and below" as none of them have an official place in the league system, and most of the news articles referring to both the PDL and NPSL as in level 4 provide no documentation for that and I suspect they are relying on Wikipedia as I can find no sources for PDL being in the 4th tier prior to 2006. It was first included in the Wikipedia article as being at the fourth level in May 2005 and the first article I can find referring to PDL as the 4th tier is in July 2006 from SoccerTimes.com. It is similar for NSPL: first added to the Wikipedia article in May 2006, and no news articles referring to it as 4th tier until February 2011 in a newspaper sponsored blog. It would be nice if we could find a reliable source that talks about ranking the leagues that is clearly researched without relying on Wikipedia.

In the meantime - I think we should leave PDL/NPSL at the 4th level as that is the clear convention among followers of US Soccer. Not so sure about what should be 5th level and below. Perhaps we should just list that in the "pyramid" as "Other Adult Leagues" or something. There is clearly a defined hierarchy within USASA for the Elite Amateur Leagues vs the standard Adult leagues, but placing US Club Soccer leagues and other leagues like the NAL and ASL seems problematic and completely original research --Trödel 15:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Another thought - why not have a separate table for USASA affiliated leagues and order them by the number of US Cup entries they get (or % of clubs that qualify). This is a verifiable standard that could be the basis for the table and resolve the OR issue. I know that the play at PDL and NPSL is generally thought of as being similar, but adopting a standard based on US Cup entries is a neutral standard that isn't dependent on what Wikipedians think. Based on 2014 entries we would have:

USASA affiliated leagues (amateur and semi-pro)
US PDL (19 entries / 34%)
NPSL (11 entries / 14% )		USASA Elite Leagues (10 entries / ??% )
US Club Soccer (1 entry)	USSSA (1 entry)	USASA State Leagues
Other Leagues
ASL	NAL	others?

PS - partially implemented - but left NPSL and PDL on the same level - moved ASL to the bottom under "other leagues" and added NAL - BTW - if you don't like it just be bold and change it :)

My view of the balance between be bold and discussion is that you should be bold and implement what you think is the consensus (including writing for the other side), while using the talk page to explain your edits. It is quicker than discussing everything first and is more clear to those following the discussion what the current compromise is. Of course if there is a hard fast disagreement - editing the page should stop and the controversial material should be restored to where it was before the discussion until a true consensus is reached. Also, it has the advantage that, if the discussion dies out, the article reflects a reasonable approximation of the current consensus. Please feel free to do the same. --Trödel 18:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

PPS I am also letting some frequent editors of the lower division league/club pages know about this page. Per the Canvassing rules, I am letting editors know that are interested in this subject; however I am unaware of their positions on the matter. --Trödel 20:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Another question for those in the know - what is the difference between US Club Soccer and NAL - it appears to me that NAL is the adult league of US Club Soccer. --Trödel 16:35, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Still not satisfied with the Amateur table - there is no inclusion of the USSSA leagues even though they get a 1 team entry into the US Cup - and there is very little information about them and their leagues. --Trödel 18:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Updating professional team map

Atlanta United 2

Austin (2019)

Bethlehem Steel

Birmingham Legion (2019)

Charleston Battery

Charlotte Independence

Chicago (2020)

Colorado Springs Switchbacks

East Bay (2021)

El Paso (2019)

FC Cincinnati

Fresno FC

Indy Eleven

      LA Galaxy II

Las Vegas Lights

Louisville City FC

Memphis (2019)

NYC RB II

Nashville SC

North Carolina FC

OKC Energy

    Orange County

Orlando City B

Ottawa Fury

Penn FC

Phoenix Rising

Pittsburgh Riverhounds

Portland Timbers 2

Real Monarchs

Reno 1868

Richmond Kickers

Rio Grande Valley FC Toros

Rochester Rhinos

Sacramento Republic

St. Louis FC

San Antonio FC

San Diego 1904 (2019)

Seattle Sounders 2

Swope Park Rangers

Tampa Bay Rowdies

Toronto FC II

Tulsa Roughnecks

California United (TBA)

Jacksonville Armada

Miami FC

NY Cosmos

Puerto Rico↓

Chicago Red Stars

Houston Dash

NC Courage

  Orlando Pride

Portland Thorns

Seattle Reign

    Sky Blue

Utah Royals

Washington Spirit

Atlanta United

Chicago Fire

Colorado Rapids

Columbus Crew

DC United

FC Dallas 

Houston Dynamo

LA FC

LA Galaxy

Minnesota United

Montréal Impact

New England Revolution

NYC FC

NYC Red Bulls 

Orlando City

Philadelphia Union

Portland Timbers

Real Salt Lake

San Jose Earthquakes

Seattle Sounders

Sporting Kansas City

Toronto FC

Vancouver Whitecaps

Major League Soccer (MLS)

North American Soccer League (NASL)

United Soccer League (USL)

National Women's Soccer League (NWSL)

The map from 2013 was made with an unknown program and would be difficult to edit. I considered using the Template:Location map+ to show all the teams and add all the new ones; however, I don't like that you can't easily view a full size picture from the thumbnail (if someone knows how to do this please let me know. So I created User:Trödel/soccer_map using Location map+ and then took a screenshot of the results so we could at least have a good size picture. Not perfectly happy with it so feel free to edit if you have some suggestions. Also the User:Trödel/soccer_map can be transcluded if you don't like the image - (see image to right - I've done a little editing adding parameters to make that work but if it's going to be transcluded it needs more work). --Trödel 19:34, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Updated map for 2017 teams and the announced 2018 and 2019 teams as of now. Left all other teams in current leagues despite info RE NASL teams going to new Canadian Premier League and uncertainty around San Francisco and NC. --Trödel 03:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

League requirements

What the requirements for a league to be Division I, II or III. I know NASL are unhappy about changes to the Division I requirements, and other leagues want to 'move up'. I think it would be useful to add the requirements to the article. Red Jay (talk) 19:08, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Pro Soccer Teams Table

I restructured this table to include the years back to when teams first started being sanctioned under the current Division I, Division II, and Division III sanctioning scheme (although I recognize that the requirements for sanctioning have changed over these years.) It didn't make sense to me to continue to list USL teams in the third column when they have Div II provisional sanctioning. There is plenty of information regarding the teams in each league already elsewhere in the article and the table really is about the loss and growth of professional teams since hosting the world cup in 1994. (IMNSHO - the loss of professional teams from over extending directly led to a lack of development of US players and contributed to the recent failure to qualify for the World Cup).

We should also include a 4th column for professional teams (or teams made up of players who are being paid a salary to play soccer) that are not playing in a league sanctioned as Div I, II, or III. The only league I can think of in this situation would be the MLS Reserve teams. As the change from MLS Reserve league to USL explains the growth from 14 to 24 teams and would better reflect the actual growth and loss of Professional teams in the US.

Pyramid and League Stats

Can somebody please separate the pyramid and league stats into to different tables? It makes no sense what so ever for them to be combined. SportsFan007(talk) 13:54, 25 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007

I assume you're referring to the giant monstrosity that includes the "Professional League Standards." I don't even think that section of the table is even entirely necessary, and it certainly needs to be separated. Jay eyem (talk) 14:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

You assume correctly SportsFan007(talk) 14:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007

I have created the following table based off the one in the German football league system article. I think it more closely resembles the table that existed before all of the "Professional League Standards" stuff was inserted. Jay eyem (talk) 16:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Level	Division
1	Major League Soccer 19 U.S. teams, 3 Canadian teams Western Conference 10 U.S. teams and 1 Canadian team Eastern Conference 9 U.S. teams and 2 Canadian teams
2	North American Soccer League 6 U.S. teams, 1 Canadian team, and 1 Puerto Rican team				United Soccer League 27 U.S. teams and 3 Canadian teams Western Conference 14 U.S. teams, 1 Canadian team Eastern Conference 13 U.S. teams, 2 Canadian teams
3	No officially sanctioned league currently at this level

This is what it should look like: SportsFan007(talk) 18:33, 26 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007
<! COPY PASTE WIKICODE BELOW THIS POINT IF THIS GET'S USED>

Tier	Leagues/divisions
	Sanctioned by USSF as professional leagues
USSF Division I	Major League Soccer (MLS) 19 U.S. clubs and 3 Canadian clubs
		Western Conference 10 U.S. clubs and 1 Canadian club				Eastern Conference 9 U.S. clubs and 2 Canadian clubs
USSF Division II	North American Soccer League (NASL) 6 U.S. clubs, 1 Canadian club and 1 Puerto Rican club		United Soccer League (USL) 27 U.S. clubs and 3 Canadian clubs
				Western Conference (USL) 14 U.S. clubs and 1 Canadian club		Eastern Conference (USL) 13 U.S. clubs and 2 Canadian clubs
USSF Division III	National Independent Soccer Association (NISA) (starts in 2018)		USL Division III (USL D3) (tentative name - starts in 2019)

Thanks SportsFan007 - I agree the other stuff was too much. --Trödel 00:30, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

UPSL place in the amateur table

Hi everyone,

An edit was made to add two levels of the UPSL to the amateur table, a top level in parallel with PDL and NPSL and a second level in parallel with the USASA elite amateur leagues. My view has been that UPSL is not parallel with PDL or NPSL (not that this couldn't change) for a couple of reasons, one of which is the berth status of UPSL teams in the open cup, and another of which is that UPSL is explicitly an elite amateur league (in addition to being a national affiliate), unlike the PDL or NPSL. I am starting this discussion to have the conversation of what the fairest current status of the UPSL is. I would also preface this discussion by noting that I have seen several UPSL related edits in the UPSL page and on team pages that I would describe as promotional, and the league and teams would have a vested interest in relative equity with the two de-facto division 4 leagues (I believe the edits I'm recalling would best be described as self-promotional, but that is just speculation). Let's have this discussion to establish a consensus view of the UPSL. Loftybunch1 (talk) 03:44, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I honestly am not even sure that it's that important, since there is no official sanctioning past the third division. I do think it is a mistake to consider them on the equivalent level as NPSL and PDL, especially in regards to the Open Cup entrance. It might merit some inclusion in the table, but not where it was before. Jay eyem (talk) 15:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Tried to address your concerns - would suggest you edit it rather than revert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrlandoCityFan (talk • contribs) 15:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Finally - looks like their will be structure to the Amatuer Leagues

USASA to institute new standards

“This tier system will break groups up into national, regional and local leagues. We also want to get all the amateur leagues together in January at the coaches’ meeting to discuss the possibility of promotion-relegation across the tiers.” Motta explained that the tiered system is already being drafted for “hopefully 2018” while the promotion/relegation component would take much more planning and debate.

Side note - this is the only way Pro/Rel will ever get traction in the US - if it is built from the lower leagues up rather than trying to push it on MLS to avoid the MLS entry fee.

Tier 4

The amateur league pyramid has changed for 2020. The UPSL have themselves stated this; https://twitter.com/upslsoccer/status/1235697833304420352. The main difference to the structrue shown; is the UPSL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Premier_Soccer_League) are level 4 not 5. Level 5 should be: The USASA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Adult_Soccer_Association The NAIA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIA_Men%27s_Soccer_Championship The NCAA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I_Men%27s_Soccer_Tournament US Club Soccer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Club_Soccer US Youth Soccer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Youth_Soccer_Association SAY Soccer - no wiki link at present. AYSO - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Youth_Soccer_Organization

I have tried to amend this, but it keeps being edited back despite this being correct and evidence shown. Please can you edit the table to show the correct amateur levels.

Please also see NBC Sports declare UPSL level 4 - https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2020/05/15/united-premier-soccer-league-returns-june-20-coronavirus-pandemic/

@Blaixx: USL League Two IS NOT an amatuer league, it is a developmental league, and NPSL is equal with it. SportsFan007 (talk) 00:33, 23 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

Any league that does not pay its players is an amateur league. Regardless, could you explain in more detail why it should be listed along with the professionally sanctioned leagues, in addition to in the table with the leagues sanctioned by USASA. BLAIXX 00:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@Blaixx: If the canadian pyramids lists them, why shouldn't the us pyramid? SportsFan007 (talk) 00:46, 23 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

That's not really the best logic you should use when editing Wikipedia. Just because you see something in one place, does not necessarily mean it's correct – Wikipedia does have errors. In this specific case, the Canadian and US pyramid articles have different layouts. The Canadian article has a single table where the US article is subdivided into professional and amateur sections. In general it is best to use an article format appropriate to the specific topic rather than forcing the style of another topic. In the future, be sure that when you make edits to Wikipedia, you are able to defend your rational when challenged. BLAIXX 00:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I relocated the pyramid so it makes more sense. SportsFan007 (talk) 20:07, 23 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

The way you have arranged it still seems illogical to me. Why separate USL2 and NPSL from the other amateur leagues? I have asked you several times but you have still not provided any substantial explanation. I encourage you to continue discussion on this talk page until we can reach a consensus. BLAIXX 00:43, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

When PDL was acquired by United Soccer Leagues and because USL League Two it became professional and if NPSL is equal with it, then it should be listed as well. SportsFan007 (talk) 02:20, 24 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

Also, USL League Two and NPSL have unnoffical tiers, which the other amatuer leagues don't have tiers at all. SportsFan007 (talk) 02:40, 24 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

My issue is that those claims are unsourced and speculative. As per WP:Verifiability, information should be backed up by a reliable source and there does not appear to be one that says USL League 2 is professional or "Tier 4" or that NPSL and USL2 are equivalent. Indicating it as such, even as "unofficial" would constitute WP:OR which states that content should not be original research. BLAIXX 03:20, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Blaixx: So should Tier 4 be removed from the Canadian pyramid? SportsFan007 (talk) 03:28, 24 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

I made some attempts to address this issue and provide sources for the structure. I don't know why USL and NPSL don't apply to be members of the USSF directly instead of continuing to be sanctioned to play through USASA but that's the way it is so that is the way it makes sense to identify them. USSF does recognize the difference between those two leagues and the other leagues sanctioned by USASA as they have designated them as "Open Division National League" in the US Open Cup Handbook and qualifying criteria separate from what is referenced as "Open Division Local Qualifiers". I believe (though I can't find the handbook documenting this), that this practice was formalized with the major changes made to the US Open Cup in 2012 when all MLS teams were asked to participate (it had been 8 teams before then) (see https://web.archive.org/web/20130516075122/http://www.ussoccer.com/news/lamar-hunt-u-s-open-cup/2012/01/2012-open-cup.aspx). However, in 2011, NPLS also received invitations to participate separately from USASA (it appears from my research that in 2009 and 2010, NPSL teams qualified by taking USASA slots). So who knows when USSF began to make the distinction between national and regional leagues. Regardless, the PDL has consistently been given a significant number of berths, and as NPSL has grown they have received a similar number of berths. I also agree with Blaixx in that PDL and NPSL pay some players and are not strictly amateur leagues - although I had trouble finding a reference clearly stating this. OrlandoCityFan (talk) 13:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Counting NISA Teams

I oppose counting 8 teams from NISA even though the sanctioning lists 8 teams. At this point these teams don't exist - they have no named city and the ownership group doesn't appear to be listed yet. I propose listing only those teams that have been publicly announced. Making the change but opening up discussion here. Wikipedia principle I think applies: WP:FUTURE. We should wait at the least until they have names, if not on an official schedule. If NISA delivers on their promise that should be soon "In an announcement published Monday, NISA stated that the inaugural season will include teams in at least eight markets and that the remaining clubs are “expected to go public in the coming days.”[1] --Trödel 23:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Continuing to include 8 teams when even the website hasn't officially announced them - see http://nisaofficial.com/news - is not in keeping with the WP:FUTURE guidelines. Although the general markets now appear on the website in the left navigation, just general information is included and no details of ownership, name, playing location, etc. I could find no news in Orlando regarding the future NISA team - not even that Central Florida is one of the 8 markets that NISA will compete in). Removing all references to 8 teams until they are announced and there are reliable secondary sources documenting the existence of those teams. --Trödel 00:04, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Links to Canadian soccer league system

Why were the links to the Canadian Soccer league system in the pyramids section of this page and the infoboxes of other pages (such as MLS and USLC)? I have no objection to it, I'm just curious as to why it was done. SportsFan007 (talk) 08:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

This was done because there are no sources to suggest MLS or USLC have been given any sanctioning or "tier" by Canada Soccer. The CSA does allow teams in those league to participate in the Canadian Championship but leagues themselves don't fall anywhere in the Canadian system. BLAIXX 12:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)