Talk:Quentin Crisp

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Transgender

Crisp came out as transgender in a posthumously published biography - thus, shouldn't pronouns used in the article be changed to reflect this in accordance with MOS:GENDERID? Penguinsexploring (talk) 15:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

He was a man. That means we do not call him a woman. -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 15:19, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Crisp came out as transgender. If Crisp was still alive, then the pronouns would undoubtedly be changed; my question is whether or not the policy is different for someone who came out posthumously. Penguinsexploring (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Penguinsexploring, only if Crisp himself started referring to himself using female pronouns, which as far as I can tell he never did. He never lived as a woman, never self-identified publicly as one, and mentions the issue only briefly in a reflection which is mainly about his life as a gay man. In short: you need more and better sources, and they need to use female pronouns, otherwise this is a novel synthesis. Guy (help!) 17:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

JzG I am not sure how someone saying "I’m transgender." and "I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. I don’t actually see myself as a man"and "the only thing I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret." and "in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body." makes one think they use he/him pronouns (those lines are quoted from chapter one of her last memoir and can be viewed easily at this address - https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/21/quentin-crisp-reflects-on-trans-identity-in-exclusive-final-autobiography/). If Crisp says she's a woman with no other explanation then it is to be inferred that we are to use the pronouns most women use when referring to Crisp. Ergo, it makes most sense to refer to her - as someone who came out as a trans woman, admittedly posthumously - with she/her. Yes in that chapter she says that she relates to and can be related to by gay men, but she also says that she is not one. She lived the life of a gay man because it was only at the end of her life that she embraced who she really was. That doesn't mean we should only look at her past to say who she was. Surely her latest self-identification is the most important thing? - Lacybi

We should certainly mention this in the lead, which we don't now. What pronouns to use I leave to wiki-theologians. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

No objection to putting this in the body text somewhere, and letting consensus decide if it should go in the lead. Lets see what reliable sources say with regard to this, so that we can reflect this properly. (+ + + Searches for sources + + +) Yep, reliable sources still dont call him a woman, so neither should we. The mass changes to the text are disruptive and should be treated that way. -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 16:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

That's big of you Roxy! It is in the text, right at the bottom, but is significant enough for the (too short) lead. Johnbod (talk) 00:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Man, this is borderline transphobic. Saturdayopen (talk) 08:21, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Roxy the dog I'm not sure what sources can be more reliable than the latest work of the person in question but do go on Lacybi — Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Crisp obviously identifies as a trans woman and thus the pronouns should be she/her. Wheeln4444 (talk) 02:17, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

That's not necessarily true. Trans women do not necessarily have she/her pronouns - as they can choose to have whatever pronouns they want - or none at all. The article should only be amended if a source is found saying that Crisp had she/her pronouns. Otherwise, they should be kept as he/him. Additionally, since Crisp was a trans woman - and the article says this - I think it should be amended to reflect this (changing the description of him as a 'rent boy' to him as a 'prostitute' since he was female, editing the categories at the bottom to include his transness, amending the descriptions of him as a gay man etc). A lot of editors have left comments here saying that the article should be amended to describe Crisp's transness, and therefore @Roxy the dog should take this into account, rather than ignoring people like they did with @Wheeln4444 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:31, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I should have clarified before that while it is true that gender identify doesn't always equal pronouns, that is something that Crisp likely never considered because such a thing wasn't as considered. She might've not felt the need to specify pronouns because it may have not seen necessary. She's probably understand that saying you're a woman would lead people to refer to you with female pronouns and if she wanted to be called male ones, she would've specified so. Wheeln4444 (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

That's true, but I think it's best to keep the pronouns as he/him unless we find a source saying that he specified other/no pronouns. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

If you agree with me, then how can you deny using she/her? Wheeln4444 (talk) 03:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I already explained (also I'm a trans woman just to be clear, not a transphobe trying to be rude) 92.0.35.8 (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

But you said you agree with me. Wheeln4444 (talk) 03:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

You know what, you're right. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:03, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I have amended the article to include her pronouns in accordance with WP:MOS:DEADNAME 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:16, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@Discospinster keeps edit warring - despite the fact that we have already reached a consensus. They keep on saying there is no source for Crisp's pronouns and that she only came out as transgender - despite WP:MOS:DEADNAME, despite the fact we already reached a consensus, despite the fact that the bottom of the article literally already stated that Crisp realised she was "a trans woman, not a gay man" at the end and despite the fact that the sources already describe Crisp's own account of talking about being female. @Firefangledfeathers I've noticed that you edit gender-related articles a lot and seem to be extremely professional regarding these matters - would you mind mediating this? I am trying to be calm and polite. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:34, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Please stop reading things into the article that aren't there. Crisp did not anywhere say he was a transwoman. He said he was transgender. He did not say that he preferred feminine pronouns. Besides, there is no consensus here, only you and one other editor decided that he was a transwoman and should be referred to with she/her pronouns. ... discospinster _talk 02:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

That is not true. In chapter 1 of their autobiography "The Last Word" Crisp said I never came ‘out’ as transgender or gay because I was never ‘in’ and I’ve never known anything except the life I have. I either lived in the dream world in which I was a woman or else I lived awkwardly in the outside world where I was inadequate. The only difference is that now I live my whole life unified by the fact that I can live in the outer world the way I live in my head. Emphasis mine. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi 92. I don't think I can substantively weigh in here without worsening a potential WP:CANVASS issue. This is a tough enough call that you might post a neutral invitation to this discussion at WT:LGBT. I'd be happy to help craft the notice if you post at my user talk or yours (ping me). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:45, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, thank you very much. I will do that when I wake up. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

The latest work of the person literally says that Crisp was a trans woman. It is in the article already 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

He said he was transgender, not a transwoman. ... discospinster _talk 02:22, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that... I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman... Now, for the rest of this book you will have to forgive me. Having labeled myself homosexual and having been labeled as such by the wider world, I have effectively lived a ‘gay’ life for most of my years. Consequently, I can relate to gay men because I have more or less been one for so long in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body.[1]

Saying that my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body, I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman, and I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender, seems to me to mean that Crisp is saying that they are a transgender woman. I will note though that recent sources (even LGBT-focused ones) still seem to go with "he", so I suppose that is what we should do too: [2][3][4]. Endwise (talk) 13:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

The MOS's guidance is that the article should use she/her pronouns, "even if it does not match what is most common in sources". I agree, a straight-forward interpretation of the autobiography excerpt makes it very clear that Crisp had a female gender identity, and desired to have a female gender presentation. Thus she should be gendered using female pronouns. Someone will inevitably propose "no pronouns" as a "compromise" (ala James Barry), something I'd strongly oppose applying here. Wikipedia editors should not take it upon ourselves to determine who is "really" trans. Notified via WT:LGBT. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 16:03, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm still not so sure. Crisp did actually stop just shy of explicitly saying "I identify as a woman" or something of the sort; even in PinkNews's extract of the autobiography, they still went with "he". We have secondary reliable sources which use "he", and a primary source which requires us to make some (admittedly relatively minor) leaps to get from the text of the source to she/her pronouns. Secondly, I would imagine that in writing even if it does not match what is most common in sources they presumably didn't mean even if it does not match any sources at all, right? Endwise (talk) 16:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I have found this: Although Crisp identifies as a trans woman in The Last Word, he also continues to refer to himself as a homosexual man, in line with the way he has lived his life, and does not specify any preference for an alternate pronoun. For that reason, I have continued to use the male pronoun in this review.[5] I haven't read The Last Word, but I'm willing to trust the author of this review on what's in it. Endwise (talk) 16:32, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

The Last Word is included within Kindle Unlimited. It'll take me a short while to read it fully, but I'll report back after doing so. Hopefully with useful quotes that weren't covered in existing extracts or reviews. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:40, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Should Template:MOS-TW be added here? — Tazuco 16:23, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Added, as well as a separate ds/talk notice, just in case it is felt that MOS-TW is unneeded. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Also notified by WT:LGBT. I agree with RoxySaunders reading of MOS:GENDERID, the guidance is clear that we should use she/her pronouns. Likewise I agree with Roxy's analysis of the autobiography excerpt based on my own reading of it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:32, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Please note that not all people who identify as transgender use gendered pronouns. As far as we know Crisp might have gone with they/them or a neopronoun. There is too much original research going on here. ... discospinster _talk 20:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I've just finished reading all bar the final chapters of The Last Word. I've included quotations and paraphrases from it below.

While I can see why you've linked to WP:NOR, respectfully the words that Quentin did use in the autobiography are crystal clear. Quentin did not ever see themselves as a man, their internal state from childhood was consistently that of a woman, and they explicitly rejected that label when describing themselves. While we do not have an explicit statement as to whether Quentin used, or would go on to use either she/her, they/them, or a neopronoun, I think we do have to nonetheless give substantial weight to how Quentin described themselves; as a woman. That internal sense of self coloured all of their interactions throughout their life.

That said, I am in two minds at the moment whether to use she/her or they/them pronouns. While Quentin knew from a child they wanted to be a woman, they did not have the vocabulary to express it until shortly before their death. I think we are doing a disservice to our readers though by using he/him pronouns, especially when Quentin's latest (and last) expressed gender self-identification was that of a woman. While after reading the words in the autobiography I am leaning more towards she/her, I also recognise the ambiguity as we do not have an explicit statement "I use X pronouns now". As such I would also not be opposed to using they/them as a gender neutral option, in lieu of a definitive statement. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

It is a disservice to the readers to assume that Crisp would use she/her pronouns even if that vocabulary was known, being that not all transgender people, transwomen, or even cisgender women use she/her. I've seen in other articles about people who have stated that they are trans, there is a mad rush to change all the pronouns, despite that the subject did not state a preference. This is a textbook example of original research. Unless Crisp explicitly preferred feminine or neutral pronouns, it is presumptuous (and possibly misgendering) for Wikipedia editors to assign them. ... discospinster _talk 21:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Then how do you propose we proceed, as it is abundantly clear from the text in The Last Word that Quentin did not see themselves as a man? If it is presumption to assume she/her pronouns despite seeing themselves as a woman internally, then it is also presumption to continue to use he/him pronouns despite the rejection of masculinity. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

In Portuguese Wikipedia, it's recommended that gendered language should be avoided in cases of non-binary people. It's not uncommon to use the individual's name in the place of the pronoun in English, a phenomenon called nullpronominal. Another way is using one/one's.— Tazuco 00:09, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

The same we do with every article where the person's pronouns are not explicitly stated with a reliable source: keep it as it is. 14:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC) ... discospinster _talk 14:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

The idea that the existence of people whose pronouns don't align with their binary gender means we should avoid using she/her is absolutely ridiculous. That is an edge case - the overwhelming majority of both cis and trans woman primarily use she/her pronouns. In lack of hard evidence the idea that a situation that applies in something like 1% (and I'm being generous with that, I'd wager) of cases is a reason to avoid the situation that applies in the other 99% has no reasonable basis. I recognize the desire to be inclusive of people with non-conforming pronouns - but this is activism gone too far and the suggestion it's better to use he/him for a trans woman than possibly risk them not actually using she/her is absolutely self-defeating if we're aiming for respect. Continuing to use he/him for a known trans woman is unacceptable, and against MOS:GENDERID. Given the state of sourcing, they/them and avoidance of pronouns when possible seems amicable as a solution, though I think we'd be plenty justified using she/her. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 03:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention users use she/her in articles of many cisgender drag queens. — Tazuco 13:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not upset at you but please bear in mind that 'transwomen' is a transphobic term, and that 'trans women' is the correct phrase to use in circumstances like the one you were talking about here. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 00:41, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Really? that's silly imho. potato potato. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 07:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

A lot of transphobia is. There's a paragraph in Trans woman#Terminology that explains why 'transwoman' is seen as transphobic. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

By your logic, shouldn't everyone on Wikipedia have their pronouns removed unless they specifically specified theirs? Wheeln4444 (talk) 17:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Notes from The Last Word

So I've read through all but the last couple of chapters of the book. Those final chapters I will complete tomorrow, as my focus is waning. To avoid this being struck by a WP:CCI, while I will include some direct quotes, a large portion of my reply will be paraphrased from the original source.

The most relevant content to the discussion above is from Chapter 1: Sex, Sexuality and Identity. That is not to say that transgender content is contained solely within that chapter. It is abundantly clear that Quentin was cognisant of being trans from a very young age, as early as 5 or 6, and that they lacked the vocabulary to express it until the final years of their life. Accordingly, a lot of the experiences in later chapters are told through this lens, with a lot of subtle and not so subtle comparisons drawn between Quentin's experiences and those of men and women around him. A rather large emphasis is placed in several parts upon how Quentin felt they could not live up to the expectations put upon them by virtue of being perceived as a man.

Throughout it all, it is very clear that Quentin's identity is very complex. Quentin describes themself as having only a single daydream a as a child; My daydream as a child was of growing up to be a very worldly, very beautiful woman. This daydream is later framed as a regret of sorts; The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn't get was to be a woman.. This regret, this yearning, of not being able to be a woman, repeats itself multiple times throughout the text, not only of Chapter 1, but also in other chapters. However, Quentin also goes to great pains to state that they do not consider themselves a man; I don't actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I'm not physically a woman.

When reading the remainder of the book, you could be forgiven for thinking that this "revelation" as being trans is something that is not reflected in the vast majority of the text. However, there is a fantastic paragraph, which appears in the main article, that addresses this: Now, for the rest of this book you will have to forgive me. Having labelled myself homosexual and having been labelled as such by the wider world, I have effectively lived a 'gay' life for most of my years. Consequently, I can relate to gay men because I have more or less been one for so long in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man's body. I refer to myself as homosexual without thinking because of how I have lived my life.

When it comes to how to describe themselves, Quentin is quite clear that they reject being called a man. Despite a lifetime of being called as such by those around them, internally Quentin always thought of themselves as a woman, while externally they thought of themselves as "inadequate". It was only after being informed as to what transgender means that they were able to reconcile the difference between their internal and external states, something that is all to common for trans and non-binary people.

When it comes to what pronouns to use in this article, unfortunately there is not much clarity in the text. Due to the nature of this being an autobiography, in particular one that was dictated due to a physical frailty preventing use of a typewriter or computer, the text reads as a long form monologue interview. As such, the bulk of the text, outside of the fore and afterword uses first person pronouns. I suspect, though it is not definitively stated either way in the text, that the revelation that they were trans, came particularly close to the end of their life. The dictation process for the book took a period of approximately two years, and it is not made clear as to when in relation to that the revelation occurred. Had Quentin lived longer, as they died four months after finishing dictation of the autobiography, there may have been greater chance for statements to be made as to what pronouns to use.

So where does that leave us? I feel as though using he/him pronouns in the article is wrong. As I've said above, it is abundantly clear in the text that Quentin did not consider themselves a man, and only referred to themselves as such due to a lifetime of inertia and familiarity. There are many occasions where Quentin describes or alludes to themselves as a woman, dating back to some of their earliest childhood memories and dreams. However I also cannot refuse to acknowledge that both the fore and afterwords use he/him pronouns, and that we don't seem to have any statements made in the final year(s) of Quentin's life that definitively state which pronouns to use. However I feel as though his persistent desire to be a woman, and refusal to consider themselves a man needs to be acknowledged. As such, I am in two minds as to whether to use they/them, as a form of gender neutral pronouns, or she/her as it most closely matches how Quentin describes themselves internally.

There is also another elephant in the room to discuss, and one that is not mentioned in the article at all presently. Sexual identity. Quentin was celibate from age thirty, describing themself as having given up sex at that time. Quentin also explicitly describes themselves as asexual When it comes to sex, these days I'm asexual., and states I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. As such, I will open a separate talk section for how to address this in the article, as it is a major inaccuracy in our current version. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this considered analysis. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Asexuality

While I don't want to distract from the conversation above with respect to which pronouns to use in the article, there was one additional thing that became clear when reading The Last Word. Sexuality. Specifically, Quentin described themselves as being asexual, having been celibate from age thirty. In addition Quentin rejected the label of homosexual, stating I no longer see myself as a homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandable used to describe me. At present we do not mention this at all in the article, however I think it is important that we include it. As it does not look like it would fit into any of the existing sections in the article, we may wish to incorporate a new section, where we can discuss both Quentin's sexuality and gender identity. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but would like to judge support for/against before embarking upon it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm incredibly tired now - so tomorrow I will read all of the edits made to this article which I haven't already - before making a judgement about this. Although of course if other editors reach a consensus before me that's completely fair. Thank you so much! 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to read them today because I slept in. I'll read them tomorrow morning. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:14, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Transgender category removal

Hi Roxy. I'm assuming when you said Already in cats that exclude these in this edit summary, you're referring to the English Male set of categories? If so, as Quentin was transgender, as is discussed in the article lead and body as cited to his last published work, why did you not remove the other set instead? Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I left the older established categories because they are well sourced and are an honest reflection of his life as a gay man. A 20+ year posthoumously published autobiography hasn't yet changed the way the world sees him. To indulge in historical revisionism in this manner isn't right. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 00:47, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

That goes against MOS:GENDERID, MOS:IDINFO and WP:GENDERID. With regards to common use in sources, the guidance explicitly states that we should use the person's person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. While the work was published posthumously, it still represents Quentin's latest expressed gender self-identification. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:58, 25 May 2022 (UTC)