Talk:Edward Snowden

CIA's Ex-No. 2 Says ISIS ‘Learned From Snowden’

• Ex-No. 2 Says ISIS ‘Learned From Snowden’ • Arch♦Reader 04:31, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

This page doesn't exist according to google. The FISA court had to be restrained after we learned ( via Federal Courts) that they had wandered from the law. Right now on TV an idiot from NC is arguing " aw what's the problem". If Snowden hadn't blown the whistle on this criminals(FISA court) we would be well on the way to a dictator - maybe he only slowed it down.

Question- NSA uses a list of words ( bomb, Al*****,etc) to search all messages for - so they say. This same idiot says they only collect time, duration, and location of calls. Then what good is the word list. It appears he is lying or doesn't know what he is talking about. By the way after they search the content, what do they do with the content. Maybe they erase it, but logically they collected the content at least for a moment. 73.149.116.253 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

IP 73.149.116.253, the link in ArchReader's comment seems to have been improperly formatted. Please try this: CIA's Ex-No. 2 Says ISIS 'Learned From Snowden'. Kent Krupa (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Russia contact in lead section - undue?

The sentence about Snowden having contact with Russian diplomats in Hong Kong is non-neutral and a BLP violation. Putin is not a reliable source, and its awkward inclusion in the lead section implies some sort of broader connection with Russia without reliable sourcing. From the beginning there have been rumors, spread mostly by defense hawks, that Snowden is a Russian spy. But including that is pure unsourced conjecture and is plainly contrary to our policies. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:09, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to remove it. petrarchan47คุก 04:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Now that you have removed this bit, and have made no mention of further POV violations, and since the Lede is not too long per WP:LEADLENGTH, I am removing the tags. Obviously if I am mistaken, revert me and let us know specifically what prompted the tag. petrarchan47คุก 19:17, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Size of lead

Sparked by Dr. Fleischman's 23:57, 4 June 2015‎ edit summary: "lead too long - too much detail," there is now renewed interest in reducing the size of our intro. Before making additional changes, I recommend that we await editorial consensus on my recent edits, which cut the lead from 555 words to 349 words—a 37% reduction. Kent Krupa (talk) 04:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Your removal of one paragraph - a paragraph which is the result of much debate and consensus (see earliest talk page archives) - is not the way to reduce words, if indeed the community agrees that should be a goal. I doubt DrFleischman would support this either. Ideally one would reduce by more tightly summarizing all of the content. Perception of Snowden and the resulting effects of his actions was fodder for probably 90% of the reporting. It must be mentioned in the Lede per WP:LEDE given that it is extensively covered in the article. petrarchan47คุก 04:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, thanks for your comment. Of course your contributions to this article have been nonpareil. However, please let Dr. Fleischman speak for himself. He has not yet had a chance to review my edits. I appreciate your patience. Kent Krupa (talk) 04:55, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree with petrarchan47. We don't chop for chopping's sake. The impact of his actions and how they were perceived is a major part of his notability. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

[edit conflict] I'm in no way stopping him from responding, however the community consists of multiple editors. The LEDE does not violate WP:LEADLENGTH, so I am unsure what justification there is for the recent hack job/edit war. petrarchan47คุก 05:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Or why the deletion can't be proposed here and gain consensus first before being done. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Paragraphs 1 + 2 now seem about right. Paragraphs 3 and 4 should be reduced to about 1 or 2 sentences, with the details being transferred to the body of the article (though they're probably all already there, but that just needs checking). The sentence(s) left in the lead should read something like:

• 'A former analyst at the CIA [citation] and trainer at the DIA [citation] and subsequent contractor at NSA [citation], after arranging to leak the information, he fled to Hong Kong,[citation] and then to Moscow, Russia,[citation] in Month, Year, from where he has been seeking political asylum in the EU [citation], after United States federal prosecutors filed a criminal complaint against him in June 2013, charging him with theft of government property, and two counts of violating the Espionage Act through unauthorized communication of national defense information and "willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person."[22][263] Each of the three charges carries a maximum possible prison term of ten years.[23]

Tlhslobus (talk) 06:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I may make those changes myself, perhaps tomorrow (to give time to hear objections, if any), though I may get lazy or lose interest and not bother, so if anybody wants to go ahead and make those changes themselves, please go ahead and do so. Tlhslobus (talk) 07:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Tlhslobus, I object. This is a highly contentious issue that deserves full discussion. Please wait more than 24 hours to give other editors a chance to weigh in. Also, you propose that "after arranging to leak the information, he fled to Hong Kong." That is false. First, he did not finalize arrangements to leak until after he left Hawaii. Second, it's misleading to say he "fled" to Hong Kong, since on May 20 he was not a fugitive and was not being pursued. It's also misleading to state, as you propose, that from Moscow "he has been seeking political asylum in the EU." That's true as far as it goes, but since arriving in Moscow he has sought asylum in countries worldwide, not just EU. Kent Krupa (talk) 15:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I firmly object to drastic lead changes without full approval from interested editors. Period. Gandydancer (talk) 17:18, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Tlhslobus, please read WP:LEDE if you haven't seen it yet. I'm thinking your comment, "Paragraphs 3 and 4 should be reduced to about 1 or 2 sentences", is not based on any guideline I'm aware of. With many editors each having a personal view, we have to rely on the guidelines whenever possible. petrarchan47คุก 19:10, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I am offended that my {{lead too long}} tag has been used as an excuse to re-write the lead in a grossly non-neutral way. I agree with Petrarchan and Kent Krupa and strongly object to the changes of the last 24 hours, particularly the new second paragraph describing what Snowden has been called and the consequences of the disclosures. This is not productive and is contrary to hard-fought consensus that was built over the last 2 years. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Fleischman, I am somewhat confused by your post. The two editors you named are at odds at the beginning of this section and the content of the second paragraph has long existed in the lead. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Kent Krupa to the extent that he seeks the removal of the non-neutral content that Tlhslobus added. Unless I'm mistaken, this content wasn't previously in the lead. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You prefer the lead in this version over the current one? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. And now that I look more closely at the history, I can see that after I added the tag and before Tlhslobus got involved, Kent cut quite a bit of content from the lead. Some of these cuts were excessive in my view, particularly the hero/whistleblower sentence. I might have a few more quibbles--e.g. Greenwald and Poitras should probably stay in the lead as they were central to Snowden's story--but overall I don't have the strong reaction to Kent's changes that I have to Tlhslobus's. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:17, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The purpose of my tag was merely to point out that there were (and still are) too many unnecessary details in what were the third and fourth paragraphs. There is no need for us to include in the lead the specific dates Snowden did this, Snowden did that when it was all in June 2013. The fact that Snowden made his identity public 4 days after the first press stories, who cares now. The fact that he feels very secure in Russia, who cares. The fact that he faces 30 years in prison, probably overkill. Even the stuff about being stuck in the Moscow airport is excessive. The big picture is that he's stuck in Russia without a passport on a 3 year residency period and has sought asylum elsewhere. It's also sufficiently notable that he's made a number of online appearances with the West since June 2013. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Any support to change the lead back to this version and then discussing potential changes here first before making them? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:22, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Changes since then have been radical and currently lack consensus. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
• Huge Support. Going forward, editors would do well to mimic DrF's example just above this section, where he seeks consensus on one single change, with explanation, before making the change. Please stick to policy so that we aren't wasting time with arguments that are nothing more than one's personal opinion. petrarchan47คุก 21:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I apologize for exercising Wikipedia:Be bold and am disappointed that Dr. Fleischman considers my edits "radical." I remain convinced that the current version is better, but will recuse myself from editing the lead hereafter. Kent Krupa (talk) 00:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Kent Krupa, as I wrote, I didn't consider your edits radical. Please reconsider your recusal, as while I disagree with aspects of your changes I think your input is valuable. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:29, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support Tlhslobus (talk) 01:29, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Based on the above, I've restored the old lead. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:47, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks, NeilN. Tlhslobus (talk) 03:43, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, NeilN. Kent Krupa, I think this was just a misunderstanding of the guidelines, which is not a big deal, not a reason to recuse yourself, it's just a learning process. petrarchan47คุก 03:54, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Request for clarification as to lead length and NPOV

At 20:21 on 5 June 2015, Dr. Fleischman restored a Lead Too Long tag and added a POV-lead template to this article. Considering the lead's radioactive nature, I request that Dr. Fleischman specify all instances that ought to be trimmed or deleted to reduce length, and identify all violations of neutrality within this article's introduction. Once he has done so, we can await editorial consensus supporting or opposing each point, and then best decide how to proceed. If no consensus materializes, I propose removing both templates. As it stands, this prominent caveat in Wikipedia's voice represents the unsupported opinion of a single editor, and is therefore misleading. Kent Krupa (talk) 18:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Update: Forty-three minutes after I posted my request for clarification, Petrarchan47 removed the two tags in question. So apparently my request is now moot. Kent Krupa (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Unless there is justification for and consensus on the need for tagging, they should remain absent. There is open discussion on this talk page, where no arguments for the tags have yet been provided. petrarchan47คุก 20:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I provided some details about what I think should be cut from the lead, and why, right here, before this discussion thread was started. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Guess I spoke too soon about my request being moot. Eight hours to the minute after Petrarchan47 removed the Lead Too Long tag, Dr. Fleischman restored it. This is what I admire about Wikipedia. Teamwork. Kent Krupa (talk) 03:43, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Anyhow, I'd like to reformulate my request. Dr. Fleischman points to this comment as to what should be cut from the lead. Mostly his rationale consists of Who cares?

The fact that Snowden made his identity public 4 days after the first press stories…

Who cares?

The fact that he feels very secure in Russia…

Who cares?

The fact that he faces 30 years in prison…

Probably overkill.

Oh, and as for including the specific dates Snowden did this, Snowden did that…

There is no need. It was all in June 2013.

Given this carefree approach, I think it's better to pose a larger question: Do any editors besides Dr. Fleischman think the lead is too long?

Forget about what in particular ought to be cut. Let's find out first whether there's a consensus on the fundamental issue of cutting the lead at all.

I suspect there is not. Kent Krupa (talk) 05:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

What do you think? Do you agree with my suggestions? Why or why not? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:31, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Fleischman, I think it's all talk. Editors lack the will to cut this lead in any meaningful way. Kent Krupa (talk) 05:44, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean. I have the will to cut the lead if we can achieve consensus to do so. This is an opportunity for you to weigh in. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Fleischman, OK, then let me rephrase. Editors lack the will to achieve consensus to cut this lead in any meaningful way. It's not going to happen. Kent Krupa (talk) 05:57, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

So far there's a consensus of 2. You are welcome to join in. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I think almost all the fourth paragraph could be cut. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:37, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

While I don't think that the lead is too long compared to other similar articles, I agree that it would be improved with a few cuts, mostly or perhaps all in the fourth para. I've worked on several similar articles and it's quite the norm to need to go through the article and cut back on some of the more particular facts, for instance the "who cares" stuff that Dr.F speaks of, as time goes on. Would it help to present a proposal for a 4th para replacement that we could all take a look at? Gandydancer (talk) 13:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Gandydancer, thanks for your constructive response. Yes, I think it would help greatly if you would propose a revised fourth paragraph. Kent Krupa (talk) 15:38, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Kent, but that's not going to happen! :) Both Petra and Dr.F have a much better grasp of this article than I do and could do a much better job on a proposal. Also, it might well be that the lead could need some additions as well. I have been keeping the West Africa Ebola article under my wing since the epidemic began and have spent endless hours to keep it up to date, needing to go through the entire article every few weeks with a large amount of editing and I know its a big job and best left to someone that is very familiar with the topic. For Ebola, I know it up and down and back and forth and every which way there is and consider myself an expert, but here, not so much. :D Gandydancer (talk) 18:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I see no urgency in the Lede-cutting operation, but those who do are free to present a proposal. petrarchan47คุก 03:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, you are right. It is not urgent. However, it is embarrassing. The first thing visitors see is a page-width banner proclaiming our inability to get the first four paragraphs right. What are readers to infer about the rest of the article? Edward Snowden is a mature BLP, created two years ago. It has undergone 7,685 revisions by a combined 1,295 editors. You yourself made 1,330 edits—17.31% of the total. In particular, the lead has remained essentially unchanged for months. For us now to be suddenly debating its length—and its content hard won by consensus—is an admission of negligence if not incompetence. It deserves to be expeditiously addressed. Kent Krupa (talk) 04:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

DrFleischman, seeing that we have agreed on a process to trim the Lede (via proposal submissions), would you be willing to remove the tag; it's purpose to alert fellow editors has been served, and Kent makes good points. petrarchan47คุก 04:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)