Talk:Race (human categorization)

"Social construct" removed

I stopped watchlisting this on a daily basis some time ago, for blood pressure reasons. I note that now the well-sourced scientific consensus that race is primarily a social construct has been stripped not just from the lead but from the entire article. I don't think this is a consensus change.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  07:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Can you point to a previous page revision where the social construction of race was explained well? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:46, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Having it linked in the lead, a here was of value, though I'd have to dig around in history more to see if the article body got into it well. The talk page archives from around two year ago have a huge source dump I did, fully formatted in cite templates, for anyone who wanted material. I don't personally want to work on this article much because of the drama, but I did a whole lot of leg-work for people who want to.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  07:53, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

That material is at Talk:Race (human classification)/Archive 33#"Consensus" of social construction, ff.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  07:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

It looks like the first paragraph of the lead section was rewritten in this edit. I'm not sure it necessarily has the problems you say it does - the second sentence is "Although such groupings lack a firm basis in modern biology, they continue to have a strong influence over contemporary social relations", which seems pretty straightforward, and in my opinion gets the sources across more clearly than the previous version. I did just re-add a few words that got dropped without explanation, though (the part Maunus pointed out down below.) It's a bit of a run-on sentence, so I can see why SMcCandlish trimmed it down, but as far as I can tell every part of the list is important. --Aquillion (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with SMcCandlish, that the current version is not good - it is not based on the best available sources, and is consequently overly simplistic. For example racial groups are not only based on shared physical traits, genetics or ancestry - but also on shared cultural and social traits and assumptions about correlations between those and physical traits.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:36, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• Per the #Readdition of "as a social construct" discussion above, "social construct" in the lead has repeatedly been an issue. The article has been fine without it. Aquillion recently re-added "or social relations, and the relations between those groups," but that's not the same as adding "social construct." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:12, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
  • It's repeatedly been an issue because WP suffers waves of racialist trolling and PoV pushing. It's pseudo-science, and the article has not "been fine" without leading with the real-world scientific consensus that race is primarily a social construct. The specific phrase "social construct" is sourced to the moon and back.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  09:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it was a good idea to remove the specific way the definition was worded "race, as a social construct, is" because this implied that this is only one potential way of understanding race, and that there is a parallel "race, as a biological grouping, is". When reality is that race is a socially constructed grouping of biological traits - i.e. a biocultural grouping. So while I do support removing the original wording, I do not support the current wording which simply took the article back to a previous racialist definition which is not current in any field of study.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, in the case of some editors, not seeing race as a social construct is not about those editors being racist and/or trolls. As has been noted before, there are anthropologists who disagree with simply defining race as a social construct. Maunus's point is valid. Per the continued debate about leading with "race is a social construct" or "race, as a social construct, is," I do think that the lead has been fine without it. The lead already makes it clear that "Even though there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptualizations of race are untenable, scientists around the world continue to conceptualize race in widely differing ways, some of which have essentialist implications." We can also make it clearer in the lead what the scientific consensus is without beginning with "race is a social construct" or similar. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Only the tiniest minority of anthropologists would consider race to not be primarily a social construct.[1] "Our data indicate there has been a “dramatic rejection” of race concepts among professional anthropologists regardless of subfield. We observed consensus that there are no human biological races and recognition that race exists but as lived social experiences that can have important effects on health. As such, anthropologists agree that it is important to understand the relationships among race, genetics, and health."·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:44, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

My words were "there are anthropologists who disagree with simply defining race as a social construct." The keyword is simply. And I've read a number of sources showing some anthropologists not as willing to reduce race to simply a social construct. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:49, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing simple about a social construct. Most of the things that matter most in human lives are social constructs. That something is a social construct does not mean that it is not also something else. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

That's a given. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:24, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

To elaborate on not everyone who refuses to accept that race is a social construct is a racist, look at some of the sources on the matter that make it clear that society in general is unlikely to view race as a social construct any time soon. The idea of human races is ingrained into society due to the social, political and economic meanings of race. Judging groups as a race based on the way they look is a part of that. Society doesn't seem to want to do away with the notion of race, no matter how many scientists state that it doesn't exist. I've tried to tell many people -- black, white, or other -- that race does not exist, and most are beyond skeptical when I state this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:59, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Race exists, so don't tell anyone that it doesn't. It just doesn't exist independently of how human societies choose to construct it.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I tell them it doesn't exist based on what scientists state. And those scientists do indeed use the wording "doesn't exist." Of course, they clarify, like this source you cited does. So do I. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:49, 5 October 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:00, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

You mean it doesn't exist according to those scientists selected by the newspaper editors you cite. Rupert the Frog (talk) 14:08, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Nope. But I see you have returned to WP:Sock yet again. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

But they are racialists, pursuing a set of ideas from the 1800s to the mid-20th century, and which has been debunked by genetics. It's all about haplogroups, when it comes to the biology side, and it's all about human perception and our innate need to categorize and label things on the social side. Race "exists" primarily as a set of social effects, not underlying facts. As I think I've noted here before, we know that, e.g., neighboring but endogamous peoples in Africa generally have more genetic diversity between then than is found between Spaniards and Okinawans. But human perception leads most of us to want to lump Africans together as all "the same thing", to call them all "black" or "African" as a type, a race, because of superficial similarities like dark skin (convergent evolution – there's strong pressure in the tropics to be darker, for multiple reasons covered in innumerable papers, but it hasn't been operating long enough on some populations, e.g. indigenous peoples of the tropical belt of the Americas, and various groups in India who've moved south within historical times, to have had much of an effect on them yet).

This article is always going to be difficult to maintain because it's always going to be edited sporadically by people who do not understand genetics. E.g. you'll find reasoning like "how can it be that all populations in this particular cluster are not all one real race when they all have the same anti-malaria adaptation?", and you'll find that reasoning in various non-scientific publications, not just in editors' heads. This is the Dunning–Kruger effect at work; people figure out what a "sciencey" term means, in broad strokes, and think they understand the real-world mechanisms the term refers to, but they usually do not. People on and off WP engage in massive confirmation bias, seeking out sources that agree with their pre-conceived notions, and passing over any that give them a feeling of cognitive dissonance. This problem is compounded by social "science" being pretty much completely addicted to racialism, and various other disciplines (like psychology and psychiatry in the United States) using it as a convenient short-hand. What they're dealing with is the effects of racialist thinking in society over a long span of time – i.e. they're working with race as a social construct – not with whether the underlying Victorian-era idea behind race was sound to begin with. We have to distinguish these things better on Wikipedia, the way we distinguish between a religion's doctrine and the historicity of various claims the religion makes. The belief in race is very similar to religious faith.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  22:47, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Thanks for this. I'm very impressed. Doug Weller talk 12:12, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

I do my best. :-) PS: If anyone wants to know why the anti-malarial sickle-cell anemia thing isn't proof of a single race in Africa (and a different anti-malarial adaptation doesn't prove a single race in Asia), it's because an advantageous adaptation (even one problematic in later life, as long as it enhances survival rates to breeding age) will sweep through a population geometrically in just a few generations, and stick, and will also jump (through very few interbreeding events – possibly just a single case), into a neighboring population and become dominant in it as well just as quickly, and so on, until it reaches an area where it is no longer strongly or at all advantageous; meanwhile, genetic material that does not provide such an advantage will be quickly lost in the sea of "foreign" DNA and not retained. I read some really good stuff on this (in a secondary source, not just a primary research paper) last year; I can probably dig that up if we think it will come in handy, but I'll need to go through a big book stack to find it again.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  12:30, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

• I've tweaked the changes to the definition somewhat. I think it is a really bad idea to have the definition be in the definite singular "a race" - the article is about the concept of race itself - which is the nature of how racial groups come to be. Using the definite singular contributes to reifying the idea that these groupings are units with objective construct validity of some sort, and it also flies in the face of the general practice nowadays which is to avoid pluralizing "races" and instead talk of "racial groups". The lead still needs to give much more information about the social significance of race - its links to social inequlity etc - but this is also missing from the article.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

  Good point.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  10:44, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Please remove the concept that "race is the categorization of humans into races, based on shared social or cultural traits" as per "race" @wiktionary "A large group of people distinguished from others on the basis of common physical characteristics". There is a separate page for culture - the social behavior and norms found in human societies'. This is a fringe terminology used by anthropologists and the social sciences and not a mainstream meaning. Dougmcdonell (talk) 23:15, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Um, no. It's not logically possible for the prevailing anthropological and sociological view on an anthropological and sociological topic to be WP:FRINGE. The fringe view is that the social sciences are all wrong about their own concept. This article is about that. It is not about the dictionary definition of "race"; see WP:NOTDICT and WP:NOT#DICT. There is no encyclopedic article to write about a dictionary definition of this (which varies by dictionary anyway). Dictionaries are not reliable sources for details about fields of study, only about word usage, and we're not really writing about the word usage, though we could have a section on that, covering conflicting dictionary definitions, and the shifting of them over time as anthropological conception of race has itself shifted. Even that's kind of iffy, though; it would be better to arrange the article chronologically and integrate any definitional shifts into a material on different conceptions of race in different eras.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  23:30, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

If anthropologists' terminology about groups of humans were fringe, one might well wonder what might constitute the mainstream! As SMcCandlish notes, a dictionary is not an acceptable source for this content. I'd further note that Wiktionary is not an acceptable source in any context, as far as Wikipedia articles go. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: @Rivertorch: Mainstream is really quite an easy concept, it's the view held by some large part of the six billion people that are involved in the human race. Fringe is quite easy too, it's the view held by a 100,000 western anthropologists since 1990. Surprising that the dictionary meaning of "race" is off topic, has the word been changed? A somewhat broader world view would be very helpful. Dougmcdonell (talk) 19:17, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Re-arguing that we should be going with dictionary definitions after it's been explained why we don't is just circular argument.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  04:43, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi SMcCandlish, I had some trouble with your final explanation, things like "social sciences are all wrong about their own concept", nope - racial groups is not their concept, see "history". You also tried to explain that "It is not about the dictionary definition of "race" and linked to WP:NOTDICT which says "Wikipedia articles should begin with a good definition" - was the word "not" an accident or did you mean to link to some other guidance? A further explanation was "Dictionaries are not reliable sources for details about fields of study, only about word usage" - yes "word usage" is helpful, whether "social construct" is a common description of "racial groups" is exactly this talk page topic. If we could settle that, then we would know what "details about fields of study" follow.

I would claim that the "social construct" is only found in science. I get the impression you're clearing up what racial group really means to the "social sciences", while I claim that is a fringe opinion in an article where genetics, is the only science(often used to disprove claims). I also looked for "race" at the articles on social science and Anthropology without one hit. If you would like to substantiate the claim that "racial group" is part of those sciences wouldn't that be the place? And it would probably be less contentions to use "ethnic group" which does include social. Regarding my previous comment where I brought up fringe and said "A somewhat broader world view would be very helpful", you seemed to miss that I was asking you to look beyond science, race has a huge history and the science of race does not. Dougmcdonell (talk) 20:07, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

If you don't accept my version of an answer I don't see how re-stating my version of an answer will be helpful. You also don't appear to accept Rivertorch's. So, I guess you can wait for someone else to provide a third one, or just move on.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  20:41, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I see I was pinged above, but the notification didn't work. Dougmcdonell, I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. The global population is around 7.5 billion, not 6 billion. Is the missing 1.5 billion not "involved in the human race"? I don't get it.

Wikipedia is most definitely biased towards science in its coverage of the natural world and its various components, including humans and the categories they've bestowed on themselves. Anthropology is the study of humans and humanity; it is the group of basic scientific disciplines most relevant to this topic. If you're arguing that a crowd-sourced dictionary is more useful than sources such as review articles for determining the scope of this article, then all I can say is that that's not the way Wikipedia works. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 07:45, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, "biased toward science in its coverage of the natural world and its various components" is what any encyclopedia or any other work of true non-fiction is. We're not here to attempt to document the unverifiably subjective, the assumptive and untestable. The science focus Dougmcdonell finds objectionable somehow is not what WP:BIAS refers to here. This is just properly encyclopedia writing. "I came to this article expecting to have my ideas about race covered and reaffirmed and didn't get that" isn't a valid rationale for us to rewrite this article or any article like it. Given some secondary, independently, reliable sources' analyses of various assumptions and perceptions about race, we can cover that here, in a section about it, but by its nature, it's not the actual central topic of the article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  17:29, 19 November 2017 (UTC); revised: 20:46, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Very few geneticists or biologists specializing in human physical and genetic variation will now flat out only state that race "doesn't exist", and always have to use ambiguous and verbose descriptions along with a statement if ever claiming such, because they know the enormity of genetic and physical anthropological evidence now is quite clearly the opposite. Scientists know very well that sub-species exist in most vertebrates, and the variation is similar to that between human racial groups. There are varying categories of differentiation, and many human racial groups have greater genetic distance, and isolation over time, than that found between well documented sub-species in other mammals. Only certain human groups are now known to have genetic traits from other Homo species, like neaderthalensis, floresiensis, erectus, etc, and none of these markers are found in unmixed, indigenous sub-Saharan Africans. There is only a tiny amount found at points where the groups intersect, such as in the Horn of Africa in East Afric among Semitic-speaking groups, but the occurence there is still extremely rare, and does not reach the presence found among Caucasians, Asians, or Australasians. Even in those places, these markers, such as those from Floresiensis, are only found in Australoid peoples like Papuans and Australian aborogines.

To claim race or sub-species don't exist in human groups, when some of our groups have been fully isolated from one another for well over 100,000 to 150,000 years, and have markers from other homo species which were separate for 400,000 to 500,000 years, is the most ridiculous statement any biologist can make on this topic. This is especially so given that sub-species are widely accepted to exist in other mammals who have only been genetically isolated for as little as 4,000, to 5,000 years, such as in the case of the time of separation between some subspecies of wolves, or those of some bear species. Sub-species have clines or gradient of varying degrees and steepness at certain geographic junctures as well, as do species like Polar Bears and Brown Bears, but it doesn't stop scientists from separating their clusters into obvious specific species and sub-species. Small, restrictive areas where there is overlap doesn't negate the difference between 99% of the members between each population. The gradients also are not equal, with the overlap being more abrupt in some cases than others. This is the same thing for human sub-species, racial groups, ethnicities, populations, clines, etc. Pygmies, Khoisan people and Negritos have physical and genetic traits which no indigenous European or East Asian possess, and are different enough that they are a separate sub-species from us, and from one another. Steatopygia for example does not occur in indigenous Caucasian or East Asian peoples. 2607:FEA8:1C5F:ECA3:1D62:7613:C57B:44A2 (talk) 06:00, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

There are no human populations that have been fully isolated for anything approaching 100,000 years. Humans are significantly less genetically diverse than most other species, even the small and geographically concentrated population of Chimpanzees humans have much less genetic diversity. The same goes for dogs (a subspecies of wolf). ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Essay worth citing

Jablonski, Nina (2015). "Race". In Brockman, John (ed.). This Idea Must Die: Scientific Theories That Are Blocking Progress. Edge Question Series. Edge Foundation / Harper Perennial. ISBN 978-0062374349. Retrieved October 20, 2017 – via Edge.org. (Collection originally published online as Edge Question 2014: What Scientific Idea is Ready for Retirement?). Jablonski is a biological anthropologist and paleobiologist; Evan Pugh University Professor of Anthropology at the Pennsylvania State University.

Concise overview of the whole issue. Even structurally, it's a good model of how to do our own article better.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  10:42, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Revert of "racial classifiaction" for the start of the lead senence

Oldstone James, regarding this edit you made, see this and this edit that SMcCandlish and I made afterward. I object to your "Racial classification is" wording because it makes the article appear to be solely about classification. For example, instead of stating that "Race is a way of categorizing humans into groups" or "Race is the categorization of humans into groups," your wording stated "Racial classification is a way of categorizing humans into groups." This article is about the topic of race, period. As the hatnote makes clear, the article is about races as a social concept and in anthropology. When the article states "Even though there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptualizations of race are untenable," it means race as a concept, not simply the classification. The social concept/classification obviously exists, but scientists dispute the biological onceptualizations that people usually think of when they think of race. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:51, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I rewrote the first part of the lead sentence after this, into "Race is a term used in the categorization of humans into groups, called races or racial groups, based on ...".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  18:35, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I think we should go back to that or something like it (or come up with something new), because the version after mine, "Race is the categorization of ..." isn't an accurate statement. Categorization is an activity/action, and race is not one.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  18:54, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: @Flyer22 Reborn: I don't object to any of your edits at all. Just hated the wording "race is a way of dividing people into races". ^Ol^Ja 19:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's why I said "or come up with something new", above. I would suggest splitting the "races or racial groups thing into a separate sentence. However, it is not as redundant as it looks. "Race" at the start of the sentence means the term/concept race; it is a mass noun. "Races" means the categorizations used under that concept; it is a count noun. It's not wonderful that the words so closely correspond in form (are identical when the count noun is singular), but it's a fact.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  19:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC) @Flyer22 Reborn:
Any thoughts on a redraft?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  19:30, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Regarding this edit you made, I disagree. WP:Refers is specifically about the opening (the lead sentence) of articles that are not about terms. This article is not about a term; it is about a concept. That is why changed the lead to state "is a concept." As for race not being a categorization, this article was titled "Race (human categorization)" for years before it was recently moved to "Race (human classification)," and a simple Google search shows that it is defined in terms of categorization. Some sources use the term categorization, while others use the term classification. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:14, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with your suggested "split the sentences" proposal. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:19, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Your change to "Race is a concept used in the categorization of humans into groups ..." may sufficiently resolve it. Should have thought of that. I blame lack of coffee and distraction by kitteh.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  21:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I sometimes have blind moments when it comes to wording issues on Wikipedia. I'm not a coffee person, but caffeine via the occasional coke has likely helped to keep me alert at times. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:44, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

PS: I'm having the undiscussed move reversed at WP:RM/TR, with the following explanation: 'Reverse undiscussed move (22 August) with a contextually invalid rationale ("More precise title" [2]). The name Race (human categorization) was chosen at a full RM on 27 July 2015 [3], for the very reason that "classification" was inappropriately precise, and did not address the full scope of the article; it implies systemic classification which is often not evident. If someone wants to move it back to Race (human classification), they can open an RM about it, if they have a new argument to present that wasn't already covered in the last RM.'  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  21:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

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I notice that the book "Race" by Prof John R. Baker, Oxford University Press, 1974, which was once in the bibliography, has been deleted. Any reason for this?69.123.131.248 (talk) 03:07, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

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