Talk:Scientology

The use of self-published sources

I just want to point out that self published sources can be used!!! WP:SPS states:

Using self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject of the article;

1. it is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reason to doubt its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources;
6. the source in question has been mentioned specifically in relation to the article's subject by an independent, reliable source.

Protected edit requests

Minor spelling error

Ceremonies In Scientology, cereonies such as weddings, child naming, and funerals are observed.[73] In addition, Friday services are held to commemorate the completion of a person's religious services during the prior week.[73] Ordained Scientology ministers may perform such rites.[73] Just for the sake of discussion, I realize that anonymous is continually struggling against them but it's a bit inconvenient to have to request a spelling correction as opposed to just performing it myself. 72.234.227.31 (talk) 08:23, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done Jomasecu ^talk _contribs 09:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Secondary source

The point is well taken. One secondary source is "What is Scientology?". For that particular "citation needed": What is Scientology?, pp.68-70, Bridge Publications Inc., 1998 ISBN 1573181226 (JDPhD (talk) 16:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

That is a primary source in that it is a Church of Scientology publication (Bridge being the in-house publishing firm). --Justallofthem (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Probable secondary source

O.K. As the "citation needed", here is another more probable secondary source from the Computer Science Dept.& Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition at Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA. written by David S. Touretzky stating specifically: "Scientology teaches that human beings are composed of three parts: the thetan (or spirit), the mind and the body." The address: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/pubs/sfn98/[1] (JDPhD (talk) 20:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

Oh, I do not think we need to go there - a paper allegedly presented somewhere by a noted critic of Scientology and self-hosted? No, thanks. The basic concepts of Scientology are presented in a number of published texts on NRMs. Here is one Google search. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

This looks fine. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

How about this one: on p. 60, it reads "...the Spirit of the person in Scientology, the real person, is the thetan, which inhabits a body. The body is controlled, up to a point, by the mind."

Mary Farrell Bednarowski, New Religions and the Theological Imagination in America, p. 60, Indiana University Press, 1995 ISBN 978-0253209528 (JDPhD (talk) 01:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC))

Grammar Issues

Under History, third sentence from the bottom:

"An organization called the Cult Awareness Network who once provided assistance former cult victims received more complaints concerning Scientology than any other group."

Tense conflict. Should be changed to "...receives more complaints..." or a date or time reference should be given at the end of the statement (i.e., "in 2008"). LittleNuccio (talk) 22:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Not done The reference doesn't clarify when, and simply states the CAN received more Scientology complaints "in many months". It's also a primary source and can't be used to substantiate this claim. A consensus rewording should perhaps be discussed on this page. Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

---

Under "Influences," the term "dianetics" is a proper noun and should therefore be capitalized. LittleNuccio (talk) 22:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

---

Referencing "Scientology as a commercial venture," "...it was announced at the Book Expo America a dianetics Racing Team..." should be changed to "it was announced at the Book Expo America that a Dianerics Racing Team...displays a large Dianetics logo" to conform to demonstrative pronoun and capitalization standards. LittleNuccio (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

---

In Beliefs and practices, "...were first formulated in Dianetics--Hubbard's earlier writings which precede Scientology" should be changed to "were first formulated in Dianetics, Hubbard's earlier writings which precede Scientology", or the antecedent should be removed entirely (as it is referenced by the link), to conform with Em dash standards. LittleNuccio (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

(Homophone) spelling error - 2nd paragraph under History- "led" to the organization's bankruptcy, not "lead" 96.231.102.180 (talk) 00:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Introduction

The "citation needed" that appears just before the table of contents may be:

John A. Saliba, Signs of the Times, p. 30, Médiaspaul, 1996 ISBN 978-2894203262. It reads "...Scientology does not demand blind faith but endeavours to help the individual discover past experiences and shed the trauma and guilt (sin) which encumber".

(JDPhD (talk) 16:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC))

I only just noticed this section exists. I made a new heading down below but will repeat myself here (should the new heading be deleted?): I take some issue with the line from the article's introduction: "Although Scientology is recognized as a bona fide religion in the United States and other countries, it has been widely criticized as a cult that financially defrauds and abuses its members." I think it should instead read "Although the Church of Scientology is recognized..." rather than just Scientology. There are sects of Scientology that do not charge its members when seeking teachings. These Scientologists cannot be considered to be financially defrauding their members. - 67.166.134.243 (talk) 19:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.134.243 (talk)

Typo in reference

"Thomas G. Whittle and Linda Amato. The continuing search for answers: Behind the Terror - A proble into masterminds of death and violence" please "proble -> probe" per the link given. LilHelpa (talk) 15:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done Euryalus (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Spelling of City

Please could the german city in this [2] paragraph be corrected to Stuttgart? 87.86.180.66 (talk) 14:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done --Rodhullandemu 17:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Scientology Growth

Scientology has been growing in size throughout it's history, mostly because everybody who has tried it has said, "it works." it isn't a cult as most people suggest it is a fast growing religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spaniard78 (talk • contribs) 05:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a specific comment on content? This isn't a forum for discussion of the article's topic. --GoodDamon 05:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

EVERYONE? Even those who have left the organisation and for some mysterious reason criticise it, and in some cases allegedly come under attack by the organisation?92.23.25.50 (talk) 09:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Reorganization

I would like us to implement GoodDamon's Talk:Scientology/Archive_25#Reorganization_proposal that we discussed a few weeks ago. We seemed to have pretty good agreement then that this was a good idea. Is it okay if we go ahead with this now? Jayen466 19:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

If you have the time go ahead, I'm too busy.Bravehartbear (talk) 10:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I have the following comments to make on the proposed order:

• History should come before beliefs and practices to give proper background.
• In the organization section, the subsection should not be renamed to "Hierarchy" because to attempt to explain the interconnected nature of the organizations would go beyond the scope of this article. I think the current "Distinct legal entities" is sufficient because that is precisely what they are; no implied larger structure.
• "Splinter groups" does not need its own subsection in organizations. There's simply not enough sourced material on this. Brief mention in a sentence or two of the "organizations" section is sufficient.
• I could agree to seeing "dispute of 'religion' status" coming after "beliefs and practices", after the reader has had a chance to see precisely what is being disputed over.
• "Scientology as a business" is related to the "dispute of 'religion' status". Why move it out of there?

In fewer words: why change what it looks like now? I do not believe that the page needs an overhaul. If there are any specific concerns about the existing structure, can we address those? I agree that we need to present the article in more of a summary-style, but reordering will not necessarily accomplish that. ←Spidern→ 15:14, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I just think we should follow the pattern that we have for other religion articles, like Islam, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Jainism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Buddhism, all of which, without exception, desribe "beliefs and practices" before "history". Note that Scientology being a religion is the mainstream position; it is the official position, among English-speaking countries, in the US, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, and it is the dominant view among scholars of religion the world over. Jayen466 21:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The UK and Canada beg to differ. As well, there is the problem that the IRS specifically fixed various secular Scientology organizations such a Narconon as "Scientology-related entities" under the blanket agreement, making their distinctness questionable. Other religions such as Islam, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Jainism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Buddhism don't have a central controlling authority with a lock on the trademarks and copyrights. AndroidCat (talk) 08:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

No? Pope#Status_and_authority Jayen466 12:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

No. See also Protestantism, Eastern Orthodox Church or the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. AndroidCat (talk) 14:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Specious argument. If you want to debate on that level, let's remember Ron's Org and the Free Zone, who are Scientologists that have disassociated themselves from the Church, just like these churches broke away from Rome. Jayen466 19:20, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not consistent, and that is a feature. Precedents set may provide guidelines for future conduct but should not be used as definitive justification for any change. Scientology is a very recent addition to the world's collection of religions, and sourcing its beginnings and subsequent history is more easily verifiable as a result. Since its history of becoming a religion is important in understating the movement itself, there is no reason why we should reorder it. ←Spidern→ 16:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

No, Jayen, not a specious argument at all. I find your argument quite vacuous however. (Since you chose to ignore that I mentioned the lock on trademark and copyright?) AndroidCat (talk) 06:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Should this Time Magazine quote be included in the lead?

This is the quote in question, previously located on the last paragraph in the lead. Please see prior discussion above.

I think it should definitely be included. Time Magazine is an extremely reliable source. The quote may be upsetting to some Scientologists, however, that should have no bearing on whether or not the quote belongs in the lead. Time magazine carries a lot of weight, and the quote describes the man that Scientology is based around.WackoJacko (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This comment does not seem to address the question. The quote we are talking about is

In 1991, Time magazine described Scientology as "a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner."

This does not "describe the man that Scientology is based around."

Now, what we already have in the lead reads,

Although Scientology promotes itself as a bona fide religion, and is recognized as such in the United States and a number of other countries,[15][16] critics have referred to it as a cult that financially defrauds its members.[17][18][19] Critics further state that the organization has a history of harassing its critics and abusing the trust of its members.[20][21][22][23][24][25] The Church of Scientology has consistently used litigation against its critics.[26][27][28]

So, if we added the Time magazine quote to the lead as well, we would have this:

Although Scientology promotes itself as a bona fide religion, and is recognized as such in the United States and a number of other countries,[15][16] critics have referred to it as a cult that financially defrauds its members.[17][18][19] Critics further state that the organization has a history of harassing its critics and abusing the trust of its members.[20][21][22][23][24][25] The Church of Scientology has consistently used litigation against its critics.[26][27][28] In 1991, Time magazine described Scientology as "a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner."

With these words, the lead would then end. While this has quite a nice flow to it, it strikes me as undue for several reasons.

1. The article that the quote is from is from 1991, meaning it is nearly 20 years old. In a more recent (1997) article, entitled Does Germany Have Something Against These Guys?, the same magazine, Time, described Scientology as "a legally recognized church". In this article, Time magazine noted that "in Germany, Scientology is deemed not a religion but a suspect movement whose activities verge on the dangerous edges of extremism". Time prominently cited several voices from the U.S. State Dept. that were highly critical of Germany's stance, and Time did nothing to endorse the German view – which was essentially the same view that Time expressed in its own article six years earlier. I am not aware of anything like that harsh criticism of Scientology having appeared in Time since then.
2. The inclusion in the lead of a quote from an 18-year-old article in a magazine that since then seems to have moderated its view strikes me as undue, especially as the same significant viewpoint has already been clearly and amply described in the lead. On the other hand, the article is important enough to cover in the main body of the article, especially since a major lawsuit resulted from it (which the Church lost). It would be appropriate to quote from it there. Jayen466 21:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Moderated? Or the chilling effect of Scientology's unsuccessful $416 million libel suit which Time, none the less, spent over $7 million defending itself from? There are quite a number of cites for Scientology's "notoriously litigious" activities. AndroidCat (talk) 08:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, but when the Germany issue came up, I don't recall many US media taking Germany's side at all. They were all, look what those guys are doing, they're picking on Cruise, they won't let Chick Corea play just because he's a Scientologist, and they are blocking the new Windows version just because some code was written by a company headed by a Scientologist. Jayen466 11:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Second, precisely because there are a great number of voices critical of their litigious activities, I wouldn't single out Time. It's not as though others hadn't said it. If you can think of a good way of rephrasing "critics" so it becomes clearer that "critics" haven't been some isolated minority, I would be open to that. Perhaps "very widely criticised" or some such wording would do. Jayen466 11:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I've edited the lead to indicate that criticism is wide-spread. Jayen466 12:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm coming here in response to the RfC. My reaction is that the quote probably does not belong in the lead (which I think is already too long and could be shortened, although I suppose a case can be made that the quote provides a sort of "balance" to a long introduction that does not really raise criticisms until the end). But I think that a possible compromise might be to move the quote into the body of the article, in the controversies section. There, as part of a section on criticisms, rather than as part of the introduction to the article as a whole, the concerns about date and about opinion vs. fact become less of a liability, and the quote does vividly communicate some of the criticisms. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Coming from RFC. quote comment Yes the quote should be included in the article, but not in the lead. The reason for my opinion is that it expresses a POV, and for that reason should be in a section that states both pro and con information. It should be included because it does come from a reliable resource that can be verified. general comment The lead is longer than it should be. The lead should briefly cover a description of what Scientology is, when it was conceived and by who, and perhaps brief sentence on how it was popularized. All IMHO of course. Ched (talk) 08:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

 Done Time quote included in main body, not included in lead. Jayen466 01:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

So this wasn't any real kind of RfC, was it? AndroidCat (talk) 04:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

From the RFC. I think the quote should stay out of the lead, but I think the current version [3] is sloppy. Combine the last two paragraphs of the lead about controversy and don't add 6 refs to a single point. You could just add one ref that points to the WP article on criticism. Since Scientology is widely known for its financial interests and bullying, I'm sure a concise quote from a source better than Time is available. Right? Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

This is not criticism, but sensationalism that lacks objectivity. It is meant to sell magazines, not provide a reference for an encyclopedia. All sensationalism is unhelpful here; it is POV and influences the article's tone and thus attempts to tell readers what to think about a topic. Just report facts, straight facts without sensationalism, and let readers made their own deductions. --^StormRider 01:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think several points are relevant here:

1. I agree that the lead is a little too long, but it's due more to the writing style than to excess information. It needs to be condensed and more concise language used. That's a basic editing issue, in my opinion.
2. I agree that the quote is probably more appropriate in the main body than in the lead, but I say that more because of its wording than because of its controversial nature. I think it's too specific for a general overview, which is what the lead is supposed to be.
3. I find it interesting that Time has, at least to some extent, changed its tune over the course of the past couple of decades. I haven't been involved in the editing of this article and don't have time to look it over carefully, but just as a suggestion, would it be useful to include both quotes and discuss the (apparently) changing attitudes in the media? Speaking for myself, this information definitely enriches my understanding of Scientology and its impact on (at least US) culture. Might it do the same for others? Just a thought... -- edi(talk) 11:46, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid saying in the article that TIME has changed its tune would be OR. But the Chicago Sun-Times statement for example ("'TomKat' casts spotlight back on Scientology – Criticism fades, but some still see it as a money-making cult) is the sort of source that we could quote if we wanted to make that point. Jayen466 20:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

CESNUR

We've been to RS/N before over CESNUR and Melton. Melton's books are required reading in university courses, and he's the author of the Encyclopedia Britannica article on Scientology. I don't care if his hobby is vampires, bestiality movies or stamp collecting. Jayen466 11:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall those hasty trips to RS/N ever settling anything one way or the other. (In fact, it seemed to be a tactic to derail any discussion and lose it in the noise of RS/N.) More to the point than Buffy, the site is a mix of papers (some marked "preliminary version, do not cite"), legal documents (which we've chopped from other sites) and personal opinions and hobbies of Massimo Introvigne (not Melton). I don't see that any given page on cesnur.org is more or less RS than a given page on xenu.net, and would have to evaluated individually. AndroidCat (talk) 15:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I am afraid this is wishful thinking. Andreas Heldal-Lund, who operates xenu.net, does not have any qualifications or academic standing whatsoever. His site is essentially a large blog, one of several of this type whose reliability is given a fairly dim assessment by scholars. The conference papers listed at the EL http://www.cesnur.org/testi/se_scientology.htm on the other hand are papers written by reputable, published scholars. CESNUR was established by religious scholars from leading universities. The two don't compare.

As for chopping legal documents, we have agreed that we will not use such documents as sources for article content unless they are referenced by a reliable published secondary source. As far as I am concerned, that applies to legal documents on the CESNUR site just as much as it does to those hosted on xenu.net: we won't use them unless referenced in published literature. And if there are newspaper articles on cesnur.org that seem to have an unclear copyright status, then we won't use them as convenience links either, just as we won't use similar pages on xenu.net or rickross.com. But neither of these facts impinges upon the suitability of http://www.cesnur.org/testi/se_scientology.htm as an external link. It is a recommended scholarly research resource. Jayen466 19:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

What are Massimo Introvigne's qualifications or academic standing? AndroidCat (talk) 00:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Given in the links above. More could be added. Jayen466 01:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

6) Primary Groups Lobbying in Europe on Behalf of Controversial 'Religions'

While the Scientology lobby has had a surprising impact inside the United States government, intense lobbying on the part of various interested parties also occurs on international levels. A document, for example, that a Greek court made public showed very clearly that Scientology in Greece set out to "[e]stablish comm[unication] lines in the area of Human Rights groups" (Office of Special Affairs, 1995: 7), and it is certain that the organization has attempted to forge similar links with human rights organizations throughout Europe. (For example, from Poland in September 1994, German Scientologists sent a four-page "Executive Summary" about their group's supposed plight in Germany to delegates participating in the CSCE summit in Budapest [Scientology Kirche Deutschland eV, 1994].)

The highest profile lobbying and information group for controversial religions is CESNUR (the Center for Studies on New Religions), which is based in Torino, Italy (with contacts throughout Europe and North America) under the directorship of patent/trademark lawyer and independent scholar, Massimo Introvigne. A persistent critic of any national attempts to identify or curtail so-called 'cults,' Introvigne has spoken out against what he considers to be intolerance toward "minority religions," especially in Belgium, France, and Germany. On July 30, 1998, for example, he spoke about (alleged) intolerance and related issues before the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (i.e., the Helsinki Commission) in Washington, D.C., and concluded by warning against public sponsorship of private anti-cult organizations (which he dislikes partly because, he says, they ignore scholarly findings [Introvigne, 1998]). He expanded on these themes in his 1999 presentation to the OSCE, which met in Vienna (Introvigne, 1999b). (In turn, Karen Lord of the Helsinki Commission, and Jeremy Gunn--who has been on the staff of the United States Institute of Peace, the United States Department of State's Commission of International Religious Freedom, and the U.S. Mission to the OSCE--spoke at CESNUR's June 1999 conference in Pennsylvania [CESNUR, 2000b]. Both Lord and Gunn also were scheduled again to speak at the 2000 conference in Latvia [CESNUR, 2000c]). Many observers of Europe's "religious tolerance" wars, however, share the observation made about Introvigne and his associates in Holland--that they are "very partial toward the public defense of those sects (for which they are often members) which have been discredited" (Louter, 1997: 5).

For example, Introvigne publically endorsed a fiction book written by the controversial (now deceased-by suicide) guru, Dr. Frederick Lenz (Zen Master Rama)-known for his materialism, financial exploitation of members, and the likely sexual coercion of many of his female devotees (Konigsberg, 1998). "Those who disagree with the alternative spirituality world view (once called New Age) in general will probably also disagree with this book," Introvigne concluded in his endorsement of Lenz's Surfing the Himalayas. "They may, however, recognize it as the real thing, the work of a key figure in the alternative spirituality tradition" (Introvigne, 1998?). Likewise, his testimony on behalf of Scientologists on trial in Lyon, France (in a case that led to manslaughter and fraud convictions involving six of them) did little to erase his "sect-friendly" image (A.R. [F], 1997; Cossu, 1998; Morgan, 1998). Moreover, controversies around some of his scholarship (especially about both "Internet terrorism" and the American Psychological Association's discussion on "brainwashing" and coercive persuasion), plus additional questions about his membership in the ultra-conservative Catholic organization, Alleanza Cattolica, have brought Introvigne into battle with critics (see Sarper and Martinez [eds.], 1999).

Many German and French officials working on issues related to religious 'sects' and human rights do not see CESNUR and Introvigne as neutral parties in the ongoing debates (a judgement that certainly flows both ways). Consequently, other people and organizations have damaged their reputations (rightly or wrongly) among these officials by associating too closely with CENSUR. Certainly this is the case with the United Kingdom's "new religious" information organization, INFORM, which is organizing a conference with CESNUR in 2001 (CESNUR, 2000d). (Many scholars, however, see both CESNUR and INFORM in a favourable light, and they share its criticism of the "sect-monitors" in France, Germany, and Belgium.) (Kent:2001) Spandexterous (talk) 01:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

And one might add that the US State Dept. and a whole lot of other people also share its "criticism of the "sect-monitors" in France, Germany, and Belgium.". And even so, let me add, the German Parliamentary Commission on Cults in the 1990s called Introvigne in as a consultant. Jayen466 01:49, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Here are some university syllabuses that have works authored by Introvigne as required reading: [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]. These are real universities, out there in the real world, not in cyberland. Jayen466 01:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

My problem with an External link to the CESNUR website's Scientology page is quite simple - CESNUR is not a neutral party in this debate. The page consists overwhelmingly of links to items favorable to the CoS. If the CoS wins a court case it gets a link, if it loses one it doesn't. Stephen Kent (quoted above) and Massimo Introvigne have been feuding for a long while, and amongst the links are some decidedly unscholarly attacks on Kent. As one amongst a number of external links and annotated as being a Scientology apologist website fine, on its own and without such attribution, no. Hartley Patterson (talk) 04:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we are entering shaky ground if we as Wikipedia editors apply labels such as "not neutral" to scholarly sources. But I see that Kent has a site too, and he is certainly a noted commentator. I'l add his site for balance. Jayen466 17:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The CESNUR webpage is not a scholarly source in itself, it's a listing of Scientology related items on the CESNUR website. Some of these are academic papers, others not. And if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck - it isn't neutral. The items are all relevant to CESNUR's agenda, which is one of defending NRMs against the anti-cult movement. Similarly for Kent, he's a scholar (love your 'commentator'!) highly critical of the CoS.

I guess it depends on what 'External links' is intended to be. On a normal Wikipedia page it would be the most useful websites about the subject, here there is no agreement on what the subject is let alone what websites are appropriate. I don't know of any 'neutral' websites about Scientology aside from this one more's the pity, certainly a Google search finds none. Hartley Patterson (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The important point about WP:NPOV is that it does not mean that we should only present sources that we feel are "neutral". NPOV means presenting viewpoints in accordance with their prevalence among the most reliable sources. So while there will be no person who deems both Kent AND Introvigne neutral on this matter, it is NPOV to represent both their viewpoints in our article, or, in this case, the external links section. Jayen466 20:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Free Zone sources

Scientology is pretty active in Israel, but unlike in the USA, very few non-Scientologists here know anything about it, and i am probably an exception - back in 2000 i read all i could find about it on the web. Since 2005 i am slowly trying to improve the article on Sceintology in he.wikipedia, and i'm quite proud of it, but i'm trying to make it even better now.

Now here's the question. How reliable are Free Zone sources when describing the history of CofS? For example, i read the book "Scientology - More Than a Cult?" published under the name "L. Kin", and it appeared pretty eloquent to me: the author seems to be loyal to the teachings of Hubbard and to the even weirder teachings of Bill Robertson, which is a minus, but the parts that describe the history of CofS appear quite realistic and reliable. Unless i am missing something, they are quite close to books such as "Piece of Blue Sky" or "Messiah or Madman". So i cited this book as one of the sources in the Hebrew article.

As time passes, though, i am getting less and less comfortable about it. Every now and then i check en.wikipedia and find that it is not mentioned anywhere, not even in the articles about the Free Zone. So - did the editors of English Scientology articles just missed this book in their research or is it really a very bad idea to cite it?

Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:40, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be nothing on the book in Google Scholar: [14] It has minimal coverage in Google Books: [15], Zellner being the only scholar who mentions it. The publisher "Ed. ScienTerra" seems to be a fringe publisher. All that speaks against the book, I am afraid. We listed some useful scholarly sources above, at #Editable_working_draft_at_User:John_Carter.2FScientology. Many of these are visible online, wholly or in part, at google books or in amazon.com. Good luck. Jayen466 00:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

E-meters

The first mention of E-meters in the History section comes out of the blue. The reader won't know what these are. I think we should explain a little about auditing and the introduction of the E-Meter in the paragraphs prior to that. Jayen466 12:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

The Tarvu/ scientology connection

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closing this as off-topic. This page is for discussing improvements to the article, not for making fun of Scientology. --GoodDamon 18:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I could not find an article or mention.

So here it is to fill you all in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ABS0dA8KqI Scientology is responsible for the above linked video, they used it as a promotional thing to get people to buy the golden age of tech products and services.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-t7MV-Z6Pc The above video is a spoof of the other video. it even has it's own website tarvu.com The similaritys are starking.. like in one scene the black guy says "yeah sure theres the whole octopuss thing but thats only like 1 % of a % of a % of tarvuism. This is a joke about how when asked about the xenu story scientologists say its only like a small small part of the religion. Ill leave it to you sll to enjoy and see if it is relevent here. Aaron Bongart (talk) 15:09, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh did I forget to mention they have thier own wikipedia, Tarvupedia! Aaron Bongart (talk) 15:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

SOUTHPARK are the believes acurately portrayed in the Southpark episode about scientology? If so shouldn't one write down the story about the souls of the extraterrestrials trapped on earth and how they attached themselves onto humans? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.191.244.73 (talk) 00:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Deleted section

I deleted the following section:

---

Treatment of critics

On 12 May 2007 Journalist John Sweeney of BBC Panorama made highly critical comments regarding Scientology and its teachings, and further reported that since beginning an extensive investigation he had been harassed, surveilled, and investigated by strangers. Sweeney wrote, "I have been shouted at, spied on, had my hotel invaded at midnight, denounced as a "bigot" by star Scientologists and chased round the streets of Los Angeles by sinister strangers. Back in Britain strangers have called on my neighbors, my mother-in-law's house and someone spied on my wedding and fled the moment he was challenged." In another passage, "He [Scientology representative Tommy Davis] harangued me for talking to […] heretics. I told him that Scientology had been spying on the BBC and that was creepy." And in another passage, "In LA, the moment our hire car left the airport we realized we were being followed by two cars. In our hotel a weird stranger spent every breakfast listening to us."

A spokeswoman for the Church of Scientology stated that they had documented 154 violations of the BBC's guidelines by Sweeney and his team. The Church also said that the BBC had organized a demonstration outside a Church building in London in order to film it, following which e-mailed anonymous death threats had been made against the Church. The BBC described these allegations as "clearly laughable and utter nonsense" whilst representatives of the picket group stated that the BBC had simply turned up to a scheduled picket date that was part of an ongoing protest since 1996. Sandy Smith, the BBC program's producer, commented that the Church of Scientology has "no way of dealing with any kind of criticism at all."

---

It is about one specific incident and as such doesn't belong in the main article. A general section on treatment of critics might be worthwhile, provided it is well-sourced. Jayen466 01:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, since it is covered in Scientology_controversies and indeed its own article. No fair, as I'm quoted in it albeit unnamed :-) I think this a better written piece than the others, and could be integrated into either. It was an important incident in that it considerably increased public awareness of Scientology in the UK, especially after the strong reaction of the CoS to it. Hartley Patterson (talk) 18:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Anonymous section

I think the present coverage of "Anonymous" activities in the "Scientology and the Internet" section is unduly detailed for this overview article, giving dates of individual demonstrations a year ago and so forth. Could we please shrink this section? Also note the current RS/N thread related to the Wikinews box in this section. Jayen466 17:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely it is overly long but I won't be the one to shorten it. Maybe Spidern will help us out here, he did very well at shortening the sections more related to Scientology proper. --Justallofthem (talk) 03:43, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I do not appreciate tongue-in-cheek remarks about my edits which imply a POV inclination. When I stepped in, many of the "Scientology proper" sections suffered from sourcing issues and problems with editorial tone. The two paragraphs (out of 6 in the section) which talk about "Anonymous" are 375 words in length, which is roughly 4.8% of the total words in the article (7838 words). I am more than willing to make specific improvements when text conflicts with our quality standards, but will not shorten for the sake of shortening. ←Spidern→ 14:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for tongue-in-cheekiness. --Justallofthem (talk) 16:57, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Would you agree that the listing of individual demonstration dates that took place a year ago in various cities, each attended by a few dozen people, is excessive detail? I would also suggest we have just one picture of Anonymous protesters (I'd prefer the one on the right). Jayen466 14:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Not tongue in cheek

As Spidern has objected to my light mention of his reducing this article, let me present a more serious look, especially as I believe that Spidern's edits are an unattributed contributing cause of the current arbitration. (Spidern shows 262 recent edits in Scientology [16])

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=248737791&oldid=248720071

Removed ~2500 characters altering the tone in many instances so as to exclude Scientology's spiritual underpinnings and techniques. Claims to have a problem with primary sourcing but relocated (instead of removed) a very strong statement about psychiatry that was similarly sourced.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=249149147&oldid=248749646

Removed ~4000 characters including many key Scientology concepts including what Scientology considers its "ultimate goal" and the definition of the "thetan", arguably the most important definition in Scientology, while again exhibiting selective use of primary sources.

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=250183196&oldid=249831701

Remove almost 5000 characters including totally removing key Scientology concepts such as ARC, tone scale, etc (which can be easily sourced in secondary materials, see ARC and tone scale), presumably because they are sourced from primary material but continues selectively allowing such with http://freedom.lronhubbard.org/page078.htm which he relocated again.

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=250183196&oldid=249800383

Removed >4000 characters repeating removal of key concepts that I guess were reinserted.

5. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=253833720&oldid=252158618

Removed almost 30,000! characters further reducing the tone of the article from being about "Scientology" to being about "criticism of Scientology".

I respect Spidern but Spidern is a critic of Scientology and his edits mainly served to make this article even less about Scientology (as opposed to criticism of Scientology) that it already was. I don't claim to object to every one of his edits, just to the direction he seemed to be taking the article. I also object when Scientologists that try to make relatively minor efforts to reverse that course are given grief all out of proportion to any errors they may make in those efforts. We need to stop harassing the Scientologists here and try to get this article back in balance. It is after all, an article on Scientology. As a Scientologist that got worn out very quickly here once said: "The incorrect and counterproductive consideration that seems to pervade the community is this: Scientology is not a subject - it is instead controversy about a pseudo subject." --Justallofthem (talk) 19:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Influences

There should be noted that S.I. Criticized the use of General Semantics in Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard's book in this article http://www.generalsemantics.org/etc/articles/8-4-sih.pdf[17]. I propose a continuation of the text "Hubbard acknowledged the influence of Alfred Korzybski's General Semantics." with "... although...". Otherwise it can easily be interpreted as if General Semanticists has something to do with Scientology. (Scientology May have implemented some small parts of General Semantics, that doesn't mean General Semantics approve of it being abused in such a way) Thank you. DukeTwicep 14:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC+1)

Thanks, that is a great read. How could you not love a piece that manages to use "adumbrate" albeit not clearly. Yes, Hayakawa read Dianetics, analyzed it from his specific point-of-view (he did not have to try it because he already "knew" that results would not "prove" anything), and found it wanting. Found it worthless and ludicrous, in fact. I am sure a statement to that effect will fit in the article though perhaps the Dianetics article would be best for that level of detail. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes indeed, but still it is the matter of Scientology black washing General semantics in that sentence. Perhaps redirecting the reader to 'Dianetics' and then in 'Dianetics' state that even though Scientology claims General semantics as one of its influences, General semanticists find it embarrassing and degrading? (Not in those words, but to make clear that General Semanticists will have nothing to do with it) Just so you understand my point-of-view. "Hubbard acknowledged the influence of Alfred Korzybski's General Semantics." That sentence is saying to me, "Adolf Hitler acknowledged the influence of Nietzsche..." (Nazism was influenced by Nietzsche, how much damage have that done to people's views on Nietzsche's work?) --DukeTwicep (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh yes, I believe I understood the article well enough. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and I see what you did there. Laff. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I did not know there was such a law. My apologies, I would've used another analogy if I knew it was so common (still I didn't intend it to be such an analogy, I was merely pointing out the importance of how we relate subjects to each other). I wonder, is there a law created for human use of language every week? Joking apart. You will let me or someone change the Influences section then? --DukeTwicep (talk) 14:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

It's an interesting piece; it might make a useful external link in our article on the book. I'll remove the reference to Korzybski altogether until we find a reference in a secondary source putting it in context; at present, it is cited to a primary source. Jayen466 14:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Full protect symbol

This page is not fully protected anymore; why does it still bear the full-protect symbol? Daniel Christensen (talk) 18:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}}

In the section:

Actor Tom Cruise, a well-known Scientologist, has publicity criticized the psychiatric field.[228] In response to Cruise's statements, an editor from the Journal of Clinical Investigation stated that Cruise is "dangerous and irresponsible."[229]

"publicity" should be "publicly"

 Done typo fixed, protection symbol changed. Jayen466 12:28, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Sea Org

There is so far no proper reference to the Sea Org in the article. That is something we need to address. Derek Davis New Religious Movements and Religious Liberty in America, Baylor University Press, 2004 ISBN 978-0918954923 has material on that, also on internal the purges that took place twenty years ago. Jayen466 17:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Scientology article -- controversies section

I recommend adding a link to the definition of "controversy" and/or "controversial" in this section.Webster08 (talk) 08:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)webster08  Done Jayen466 13:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Removal of A Piece of Blue Sky by Jon Atack

In previous discussion of this issue, no good reason was given for removal of this key resource (described in an academic source as "the most thorough general history of Hubbard and Scientology" and "the starting point for all further researches"): Frenschkowski, Marco (1999). "L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology: An annotated bibliographical survey of primary and selected secondary literature". Marburg Journal of Religion. 4 (1): 7. ISSN 1612-2941. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) The purported reason was that it is a primary source, and the reason in turn for that is that Atack himself was involved in the events that the book is about, but this is only true of part of the book (chapters 1 to 4 out of a total of 37). In the bulk of the book, Atack is writing from hundreds of credited primary and secondary sources and interviews, not from the first person. Another offered reason is that the book is "critical". That's clear POV-pushing. I think removal of these references to what is umabiguously a secondary source is a serious mistake to say the least. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, Frenschkowski also says that it is "very bitter", and that "Atack - who was a Scientologist from 1974-1983 - is also violently opposed to Scientology, but tries to stick to facts". Let's have the whole para:

Which brings us to Jon Atack, A Piece of Blue Sky. Scientology, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed, Secaucus, N. Y. 1990. This is the most thorough general history of Hubbard and Scientology, very bitter, but always well-researched and on the whole to be prefered to Haack. It has a very fine documentation and omits many unproven sensationalist claims made by Corydon and others. Atack - who was a Scientologist from 1974-1983 - is also violently opposed to Scientology, but tries to stick to facts (whereas Corydon often speculates). The starting point for all further researches. Atack has since then only written minor pieces on Scientology, but is a collector of pertinent material much of which he has made available on internet.

Given the acknowledged extreme POV nature of this work, I think the decision to stick to secondary literature is sound. What is important and generally accepted fact in Atack will have been picked up elsewhere. Jayen466 16:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing a good reason in terms of WP policy for this book not being a RS for its factual content. Trying to deny that it's secondary literature (note that you're just denying this without argument) just continues the distorted representation of the book. MartinPoulter (talk) 18:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Editors here agreed it's a primary source, as defined in WP:PSTS, and agreed we should do without primary sources (from either side of the debate), to have a basis for collegial cooperation.

Put another way, if something is only found in Atack or any other primary source, and not a single one of the dozens of scholarly works discussing Scientology, and not a single one of the thousands of news articles reporting on Scientology mentions it, then it's undue weight on a primary source to include it here. Jayen466 18:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I have to wonder whether you or those unnamed "editors here" have actually read the book. It is in no way a primary source. As Martin has said, the vast majority of the book is written from secondary and tertiary sources - books, reports, documents and other items, about which it makes "make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims" (as WP:PSTS puts it). It's a source-based history of Dianetics, Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard, not a personal memoir, and although it's coloured by the author's views, it's very much fact-based and source-based. (In fact it uses largely the same corpus of sources as Russell Miller's Bare-Faced Messiah, which was widely praised.) It's not an autobiography in any meaningful sense, and for the vast majority of the subjects that Atack discusses, he had no personal involvement. The book is widely cited in at least several dozen other works. There is no good reason to exclude it. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This published book's full text is available online, as is the Wikipedia policy definition of primary and secondary sources. It does not require much time to verify that the book is not a primary source; it is precisely an "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative" work. --FOo (talk) 10:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is an insider's account, or exposé. Miller is not. If both present the same material, let's go to Miller rather than Atack. Miller (also online) is widely considered the best and most important critical book; it is mentioned as such by Melton in his 2000 book, as well as the Encyclopedia Britannica article on Scientology. Even so, we should bear in mind that Miller is extremely polemical and in part refuted. Jayen466 11:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

That article does not seem to agree with you. Frenschkowski describes A Piece of Blue Sky as "quite valuable" and "the most thorough general history of Hubbard and Scientology", albeit "quite bitter" ... and generally favors Atack over Miller for reliability. --FOo (talk) 19:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

True, though having said that I'm not sure why Frenschkowski thinks that Miller has been "in part refuted" with specific reference to Hubbard's war record. If anything, Miller's account is less damning than it could have been, given what's come out since he wrote his book (e.g. Hubbard's purported notice of separation being a crude forgery [18]). I'll have to ask Frenschkowski for a clarication on that issue. On a separate matter, I don't think it's any kind of mark against Atack that he's an "insider". If anything, that's a mark in favour, considering that he has a far deeper understanding of the underlying ideology than most other writers who weren't members of the CoS. Note that Blue Sky is largely written as a general history of the CoS, not as a "what I saw in CoS" narrative. As I've pointed out, it's been widely cited and referenced by other authors, so there is no good reason for us not to do the same. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

We have the full quote by Frenschkowski on Atack above. As I mentioned in the earlier discussion, Eugene V. Gallagher, who is a very reputable scholar indeed, describes Atack's book as an "autobiography and bitter indictment from a former member". (And I am aware that much of its content is not written from the "I did this and saw this" perspective.) The thing is, if Atack has been widely cited, as editors are asserting, then there is no problem. We can and should cite the works citing him. As for what Frenschkowski says about Miller, it's

- Russell Miller, Bare-Faced Messiah: The True Story of L. Ron Hubbard, New York 1987. London 1988. The most important critical biography of Hubbard. Like Haack's and Corydon's books it is extremely polemical and very much tries to pull Hubbard to pieces who is seen as a dangerous megalomanic and notorious liar (especially when talking about himself). Miller has definitely exposed some inflated statements about Hubbard's early achievements, as they are represented e. g. in the preface to Mission into Time. On the other side the Church of Scientology has been able to disprove some of Millers assumptions. Hubbard's assertions about his military career in WWII, e.g., have been much nearer to the truth than Miller is trying to show, as can be seen from his naval records that have been made public during the processes following the publication of Bare-Faced Messiah (a complete set of the relevant documents is part of my collection). The Church of Scientology has also been able to verify Hubbard's statements about "Comander Thompson", the source of his early acquaintance with Freudian psychoanalysis. Joseph "Snake" Thompson (1874-1943) was Commander in the US Navy Medical Corps; his personal relation with Freud is documented by a letter written by Freud and addressed to him (in the Library of Congress, Washington. Copy in my possession). This material so far is not part of any bibliography of Hubbard.

— http://web.uni-marburg.de/religionswissenschaft/journal/mjr/frenschkowski.html

If you are in touch with Frenschkowski, by all means ask him for further details, and whether they are published anywhere by now. Jayen466 23:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem with Atack, and other writings by former members, is that it is a bit like using a husband's affidavit made in a divorce case as a source on the character of the wife. Jayen466 23:17, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

No, that's a completely false analogy. A husband's affidavit is based on the personal experiences of the husband. It's a primary source, by definition. Atack's book, by contrast, is a secondary and in some respects tertiary source - an "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative" history of the Church of Scientology, based on a very large collection of source materials. I really don't know why you keep arguing or implying that it's a primary source when it plainly isn't. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

There's a good faith explanation of what's happened here. A couple of editors have noted that Atack is a former Scientologist and made the plausible but wrong inference that his book is a first-person account (and thus primary by WP policy). Some books about Scn such as Vosper's The Mind Benders could probably be excluded under that policy, but a separate book is under question here. An inspection of A Piece of Blue Sky - which other editors have done and can do - reveals it to be researched from sources and unambiguously a secondary source by WP policy: not only that, but a particularly recommended one. So with that policy argument gone, we have Atack's moral reaction to the subject he is writing about, which Jayen calls "extreme NPOV". No WP policy has been cited for why this invalidates the source, and of course the same argument could be used to reject any source on any strongly controversial topic. We'd have to check the sources for Female Genital Mutliation to establish that the authors do not have strong feelings on the practice (NB the analogy is not between Scn and FGM, but between the sources on each). MartinPoulter (talk) 09:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed completely.

Wikipedia's NPOV policy does not, and cannot, mean that secondary sources must be value-free or viewpoint-neutral. NPOV means that the article is a neutral compilation of facts taken from sources ... not that each individual source must itself be neutral or written by a person with no particular opinion on the subject.

Indeed, rather frequently, the facts are not "neutral", if "neutral" means "value-free". We would expect that a good article about Albert Schweitzer makes him come across as a nicer guy than Adolf Hitler ... not because the article is written from a non-neutral stance, but because Schweitzer actually was a nicer guy. NPOV allows us to neutrally represent a set of non-neutral facts. --FOo (talk) 16:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

And in fact this specific point is addressed explicitly in WP:NPOV#Neutral point of view: "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy on the grounds that it is "POV"." The requirement for neutrality falls on us, not our sources. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

What is at stake here

As I said before, it is Gallagher who characterises the book as an "autobiography and bitter indictment from a former member". Insider accounts are primary sources by definition. I think if you look at autobiographies, you will find that any one of them will contain material that the author did not observe with his own eyes, but researched. This does not change that the motivation for writing is autobiographical, and that is so in the case of Atack. He wrote because he was a Scientologist, and left the movement in disgust. Other Scientologists are in the movement, and think it is the best thing since sliced bread. According to our gentlemen's agreement here, if Nancy Cartwright gushes about her making clear being the best thing in her life, that is out here as much as Atack. Likewise, Jentzsch's reports about having achieved exteriorisation in a car park are out as sources, and so are Scientology websites (which, like Atack, are copiously cited by scholars).

Please understand that we tried to get away from all primary sources, both those by Scientologists and those by ex-Scientologists. In doing so, we went beyond the policy requirements for excluding primary Scientology sources, such as Scientology websites. As you know, there is no policy reason to exclude primary Scientology sources from this article, as long as these are only used to make descriptive claims, do not involve claims about third parties etc. We could return to basing the entire Beliefes and practices section on Scientology's primary sources.

So please consider the pros and cons – if Atack is in, then so is scientology.org. Again, let me emphasise that this was a voluntary restriction editors from both sides of the debate here agreed to, in order to make it easier to find common ground and get away from both the use of promotional Scientology material as sources, and the use of the most biased countermovement sources. Jayen466 19:07, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Introduction

I take some issue with the line from the article's introduction: "Although Scientology is recognized as a bona fide religion in the United States and other countries, it has been widely criticized as a cult that financially defrauds and abuses its members." I think it should instead read "Although the Church of Scientology is recognized..." rather than just Scientology. There are sects of Scientology that do not charge its members when seeking teachings. These Scientologists cannot be considered to be financially defrauding their members. - 67.166.134.243 (talk) 19:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

There would be issues with your take as well. The Church of Scientology is not a religion. It is an organization that overseas the practices of the religion, which is Scientology. I believe the point you wish to convey is adequately explained with the mention of the Free Zone.Ukvilly (talk) 22:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Religion dispute

We touch upon Scientology's status as a religion (or otherwise) in several places, first in the History section, then under "Dispute of religion status", then again under "Recognition in other countries". I would suggest that material should be consolidated -- most countries that have recognised Scientology as a religion are already mentioned in the History section, so they don't need to be listed at length again further below. The dispute that remains, especially around Germany, could form a part of the Controversy section, and the "Scientology as a commercial venture" section could also go under Controversies along with that. At any rate, at present the information is distributed in too many places. Jayen466 00:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Jayen466, it appears to me that you are singling out Germany as a country that does not recognize scientology as a religion. The PRC not only does not recognize scientology as a religion, but has banned its existence within its borders. There are actually a number of western european countries that view scientology as a business. I disagree with you that the corporate status of scientology is distributed in too many places.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 08:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

No, you're quite right. France, Belgium and Greece and other countries take quite a similar stance. But Germany's has been commented upon most, both by scholars and in the English-speaking press. What I mean by too many places is simply that the logical structure of our article kind of sucks. If you read through it from beginning to end, it is not well structured IMO and in parts repetitive. Jayen466 20:07, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Controversy controversy controversy

Part of the intro currently says: (emphasis mine)

One controversial aspect of Scientology is its belief that souls ("thetans") reincarnate and have lived on other planets before living on Earth. Former members say that details of this supposed remote extraterrestrial past are not revealed until thousands of dollars have been paid to the Church of Scientology.

It seems to me that there is nothing "controversial" about the belief in reincarnation itself. Reincarnation or metempsychosis is a well-understood notion that is found in a number of other religions. What is controversial is not the belief, but the secrecy -- that Scientology does not present its core beliefs openly, in the manner of most religions, but rather holds them secret in the manner of mystery religions and other esoteric groups.

I'm not sure how we can say this more straightforwardly. Possibly something like:

Many Scientology beliefs and practices are not openly discussed in Hubbard's or the church's openly published works; they are conveyed to members in personal courses. These courses cost hundreds or thousands of dollars -- a point which figures frequently in criticisms of Scientology.

--FOo (talk) 09:11, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The belief in past lives is not held secret; in the early fifties, there was controversy within the Scientology movement about including teachings about past lives. What is controversial about Scientology's reincarnation beliefs is that some of these former lives took place on other planets. Jayen466 12:54, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I see what you're saying. But what's the "controversy" today? Whether Scientology has those beliefs? Whether people actually had past lives on other planets?

Sure, if we're talking about Scientology's compatibility with Christianity or some other religion, we could say that they have a "controversy" (in the sense of "disagreement") over whether reincarnation happens. And if we're talking about which aspects of Scientology get coverage in the press, the whole space-opera thing is surely right up there.

But it seems that this part of the intro is still confusing a few different notions: that Scientology has (possibly unusual) beliefs, and that there is some kind of "controversy" dealing with these beliefs. And it isn't clear to me what that controversy is, unless it is either (1) a public perception that these beliefs are weird or outrageous, which is hardly news for any minority religion, or (2) the secrecy thing, which is indeed unusual. --FOo (talk) 21:46, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with a lot of what Fubar says. Scientologists aren't the only ones who believe in multiple incarnations on multiple "planets", as most kinds of Hinduism I know of say the same thing. The things that stike me personally as "controversial" about Scientology are the at time dubious behavior the group has sometimes displayed and its implicit claims that its beliefs are in some way "scientific" when little if any of the academic literature with which I am acquainted gives their ideas much if any credence. The claims for a scientific nature are implicit in Scientology's choice of "techie" terminology for some of its beliefs and structures, but I haven't yet found a source which explicitly talks about Scientology's phrasing choices and how they might implicitly give the belief system more credence. John Carter (talk) 22:08, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is that there was an explicit reference to Xenu (considered weird by many, and often used to tease Scientologists) here originally, which I toned down; perhaps too much so. The problem is that anti-Scientologist websites give the Xenu story an outstanding significance which is not matched by the significance it receives in academic literature. There, it's just seen as mythology, esoteric cosmogony or metaphor. Jayen466 23:25, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Without conceding the claim that Xenu / Incident II is merely important to "anti-Scientologist websites" (which is wrong; see, e.g. the cover of Dianetics) I still think it's useful to identify the "controversy" regarding Scientology beliefs, if there is one that's worth being discussed in the intro.

John Carter suggests that the foremost point of "controversy" dealing with Scientology's beliefs has to do with Scientology's repeated and explicit claim that those beliefs are scientific. This may have been the case early on, but it seems to me that more recently the controversy has focused on their secret nature, the progressive revelation of these beliefs. --FOo (talk) 06:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Re the science aspect, there are numerous sources describing Scientology as a belief system based on "scientism". Jayen466 23:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Re the importance of Xenu, I said that it is far less important in academic treatments than on anti-Scientologist websites. Anti-Scientologists are engaged in proving that "Scientology is bunk", the way brights are out to prove that Christianity is bunk because virgin births don't happen and no one can part the Red Sea. Scholars are happy to describe without engaging in polemics about the worthlessness of another's faith. Jayen466 11:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

That could just be because that's what the word originally meant when Allen Upward coined it: "science elevated to unquestioning doctrine," which is pretty much what modern writers mean by "scientism". It's not known whether Hubbard read Upward, though, or (as he claimed) independently coined the word for "knowing how to know". --FOo (talk) 06:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Scientistic elements are scientific jargon, "Tech", rational (rather than emotional) ethics, the use of an e-meter as a central religious artifact, etc. Some examples: [19][20] [21][22][23] Jayen466 10:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Questinable source

I noticed this link [24] and then I discovered that this is personal website for a computer scientist [25] very impresive but this is not computer science. I don't see this guy fit to write about religion in any way whatsoever. Lets get rid of this reference. :-) Bravehartbear (talk) 09:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

 Done Jayen466 11:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Given that that article is largely an aggregation of references to other works, it would be more worthwhile to replace citations to it with citations to the underlying quoted works. --FOo (talk) 19:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Bias

I have read the article and find it extremly and ecssicelybias. I ask someone to find a third party editor, to review this article completly.60.234.151.56 (talk) 02:53, 17 February 2009 (UTC)