Talk:2017

Alexander Alexandrovich Volkov (politician)

Even though had eleven articles at the time of his death, I don't think he should be included, just like how Charlie Murphy is not included. I guess, leave him out. Gar (talk) 04:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, considering that practically all the non-English articles are clones and have no local references, AND several of which (including the Udmurt one) do not seem to have noticed that he died, it seems he was not particularly notable. Exclude. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:27, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

• • @DerbyCountyinNZ Exclude is right. Gar (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
    • No, we'll add individuals notable enough for articles. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not how things work on recent year articles - we have a much higher bar for inclusion here. If they're not internationally notable, they should be excluded. Jim Michael (talk) 20:06, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Policy, guideline, project inclusion criteria please, or else it stays. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:RY#Deaths. A person has to have international notability to be included. For years, we've excluded people who lack international notability even if they have enough articles. Jim Michael (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

2017 Manchester Arena bombing

The only international notability to this is Ariana Grande stopping her concert tour. Jim Michael (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. User should stop edit warring and come discuss Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

If this is what your saying, then your saying that the Orlando shooting shouldn't be included on the 2016 page. --MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 16:41, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

A perfectly logical assessment. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 18:43, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree - and the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting isn't on 2016. Jim Michael (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

As I was expecting this discussion to eventuate, I started this discussion at WP:RY. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:10, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Glenne Headly

She had nine non English wikis before death but I feel that an exception could be made for her. Rusted AutoParts 16:30, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• In what way? Looks notable enough to me. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

in what way do you mean "what way"? I'm supporting her inclusion here, but policy is that individuals must have 10+ non wikis in order to be considered notable for inclusion. She had nine prior to death, so that's why i'm suggesting perhaps an exception could be made for her to remain. But if it's determined she shouldn't, I'll abide by that decision. Rusted AutoParts 18:45, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• • • Oh, sorry, thought you meant an exception to WP:RYD and that you wanted her excluded. (It still says that you just need nine, not more, so I'm not sure where 9+ comes from?) Nohomersryan (talk) 21:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, where's the 10+ coming from? WP:RY says "at least nine" not "more than nine". -- Irn (talk) 21:51, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

9+ non-English Wikis (i.e. 10+ in total but excluding Simple English). DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:52, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, right, that's my understanding, but the first comment in this section advocates making an exception to include someone with "nine non English" articles. That's just a mistake, then, right? In other words, this discussion is kind of backwards: even though Glenne Headly meets the minimum requirement, it's been proposed that she not be included. -- Irn (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

You're right, she had 9 + :en at the time of her passing, so according to guidelines, she could be included by default. I thought (below) that we were talking about someone with 9-language coverage overall. — Yerpo ^Eh? 04:51, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of inclusion. Being a second-tier actress with no major awards simply doesn't justify making exceptions, in my opinion. — Yerpo ^Eh? 19:26, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. The 9+ non-English Wiki requirement is already becoming too low so I don't see that an exception is justified. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:09, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

And FWIW, her non-English articles are clearly cloned from the English, consist of a very brief biography and a list of films/tv series and contain almost no local citations. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 00:25, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

In what way is she internationally notable? She's one of an increasingly large number of people who lack international notability, but has stub articles in several languages - some of which are insufficiently referenced and/or badly written/translated. We need additional guidelines for inclusion, such as having won major awards. Jim Michael (talk) 16:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Otto Warmbier

Technically, he had 9 non-English articles before his death, but two of them were added a day before when such an outcome was imminent. I suggest exclusion, the event was tragic, but this person wasn't notable for any real achievement, so WP:NOTNEWS would apply. — Yerpo ^Eh? 09:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking along the same lines. People who gain notability through circumstance rather than achievement are subject to exclusion per WP:RYD. Unless his death results in some tangible international reaction then he should be excluded. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 10:32, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2017

Add the destruction of the Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul under the "events" section Debartolo2717 (talk) 02:24, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:23, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Debartolo2717:/@Eggishorn: If you don't mind me asking, why exactly is this event so important to deserve a place in the yearly list? A number of cultural monuments was destroyed in this conflict, what makes this mosque so special (aside from the structural glitch)? — Yerpo ^Eh? 05:03, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I won't attempt to speak for Debartolo2717, but possibly because it was supposed to be IS's capital? I fulfilled the edit request because it was verifiable, there wasn't any general policy reason to not add it, and nothing on this page appears to forbid it. Other year articles include major cultural crimes, such as the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan in the 2001 article. If a consensus develops her after discussion that it should not belong (perhaps per WP:NOTNEWS), I won't object. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually, as per WP:RY it "... must have a demonstrated, international significance". Although it has often been argued that "international significance" is undefined this is one of many cases where there appears to be no (or at least insufficient) international significance. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Gnews search for "mosul mosque destruction" gets ~41,000 results in the last 24 hours, from most major US and UK outlets, as well as major RS from Israel, Hong Kong, Al-Arabiya and Al Jazeera, etc. with officials from the US, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and even Indonesia expressing condemnation of various sorts. That seemed like demonstrating international significance to me and so I didn't think RY was a barrier. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:51, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

A common misconception: Merely being mentioned in numerous news outlets, and even the "expressing (of) condemnation" does not demonstrate "significance" as this happens for every disaster or similar; there is no actual international effect. This is a common area of dispute in Recent Year pages and has, despite the efforts of a few editors, has never been adequately resolved. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 07:05, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it. There's no reason to include this one, but not the destruction of other buildings. Media reports and condemnation from public figures is standard - this isn't unusual. Jim Michael (talk) 18:36, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

As it was actually featured on the main page, I've restored it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, since WP:OTHERSTUFF was invoked, the Buddhas of Bamiyan were a UNESCO World Heritage monument, so not really comparable, no. — Yerpo ^Eh? 19:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul

This appears to be controversial. Is it notable enough to be included? Power~enwiki (talk) 20:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: @The Rambling Man:

Support

1. as nom. It's a major event in the war against ISIS.
2. as nom. It may be an important historical landmark.

Oppose

1. as nom. It's one of many news events in the war against ISIS.
2. as nom. It may not be an important historical landmark.

• Notable enough to be included in the ITN section of the main page of Wikipedia, I'd say this is pretty bloody obvious. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

ITN has a much lower bar for inclusion than RY. I don't know why you're falsely asserting that being important enough for ITN means that it's important enough to be here. This is one of many similar destructions in the Middle East's wars and terror attacks - we'd be swamped with them if were to include all of them. Jim Michael (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Is that why the 2017 article is basically empty? You would not be swamped if you included all the ITN stories about destructions of prominent buildings in the Middle East. That assertion is absolutely false. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's nothing like empty. Many important buildings are destroyed in wars - our articles would be dominated by these details if we included them. Jim Michael (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

You didn't read what I wrote. You would not be swamped if you included all the ITN stories about destructions of prominent buildings in the Middle East. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

We'd have far too many. Destruction of cultural heritage by ISIL lists many, and too many of them are put on ITN. Jim Michael (talk) 20:46, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

How many of them have been put on ITN? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, but it's too many. This one's on ITN now, but shouldn't be on here. Jim Michael (talk) 20:52, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

If it's appropriate for main page inclusion, it's appropriate for inclusion here. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Why do you wrongly believe that? We have different inclusion criteria here. Note, for example, that we haven't included any of the attacks in London. Jim Michael (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Yet you include Prodigy, a rapper whose article is so inadequate that it's been given short shrift at ITN? Is it that you include unreferenced junk here and exclude quality articles that have millions of hits? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:19, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I've just removed him due to a lack of international notability. Number of page views isn't part of the inclusion criteria here. Jim Michael (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

So just an indiscriminate collection of poor articles which bear no resemblance to items that our readers would be interested in learning about? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Not indiscriminate - they have to be of international notability, a criteria that isn't used at ITN. Domestic events are on articles such as 2017 in the United States and 2017 in the United Kingdom. ITN has article quality as its most important factor for inclusion, whereas here it's international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Got it, that's why it gets so few page views, a bizarre mixture of criteria leading to a page which is full of barely interesting and pisspoor BLPs, but bereft of actual news stories or quality articles. I understand, I'm happy to leave you this, I may well suggest we completely overhaul the contents in the future because right now it's a bugger's muddle and doesn't serve our readership at all. Imagine wanting to know what's happened in 2017 to be confronted with ONE EVENT IN FEBRUARY GLOBALLY (!) yet the death of a Japanese manga artist and a stub about a Papua New Guinean politician feature in no fewer than 44 deaths. Do you really believe that's the right balance? Would Britannica have a single entry globally for all of Feb 2017 while having 44 "notable" deaths? Think again. And no, not at all, ITN does not have "article quality as its most important factor for inclusion", that's a completely false assertion. Quality is a requirement, consensus for suitability is the most important factor. Please don't make such false assertions. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's not bizarre. Events have to be internationally notable. Deaths have to be of internationally notable people. Some death of people who lack international notability are added because they have many articles, making them seem internationally notable. Many of those are poorly-referenced stubs, sometimes created in order to have them included here. Heads of state and heads of government are automatically included, which is why Michael Ogio is there. Jiro Taniguchi won an award in France, which is probably justification for his inclusion. Jim Michael (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's completely bizarre, a subset of the list of deaths which is covered elsewhere (e.g. Deaths in 2017), but a sprinkling of so-called internationally notable events, excluding most of those the encyclopedia deemed notable enough for main page inclusion which would have millions of pageviews and would be of interest to our readers. This page should be getting a million hits a day. Instead, 5000? Something's wrong here. Still, you all seem well happy with the awful muddle you've created, so good luck to you. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

They're an internationally notable subset - what's bizarre about that? This wouldn't receive anything like a million pageviews, regardless of content. "So-called"? Which of the events on here aren't internationally notable? Jim Michael (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

This is a dead-end page. People won't be coming here for information, especially once they realise what's here. ONE GLOBAL EVENT in February 2017? Seriously. People's talk pages get more views than this amateur collection of oddities. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

There are no oddities here - only internationally notable events and births and deaths of internationally notable people. There aren't many events which are internationally notable. It's not a dead end - there are links in the 2017 by topic box to many articles with focuses on particular countries or types of events. Jim Michael (talk) 22:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, if you believe 44 deaths and a single global event to be reasonable, this conversation ends. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

General discussion relating to the 2017 page which resulted from the previous discussion

@The Rambling Man: I agree with your conclusion (that the guidelines used to determine which events are notable are far too restrictive). However, that is the consensus, and right now, you're arguing against consensus. That's not going to work. I think that at the very least the wording at WP:RY needs to be made more explicit. Right now, the operating consensus amongst those most dedicated to watching and maintaining these pages is to interpret the “demonstrated, international significance” required by the guideline as meaning having tangible effects in multiple countries. That results in very few events being listed. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

What other reasonable way of interpreting it is there? Jim Michael (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: There are myriad other reasonable ways of interpreting such a phrase. Significance is a highly subjective concept. What is significant to one person might not be significant to another. There is no definitional reason to limit significance to effects, and effects are by no means the only way to demonstrate significance. -- Irn (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Let's (objectively) summarize this event. "The (rebel) citizens of a country destroyed a historic monument in their own country. Again. Many other countries expressed their disapproval of the destruction. Again. As a consequence...nothing happened. Again." The destruction of the monument was so significant that it got its own Wikipedia page...oh, wait, no it didn't. But it did make the news. Like millions of other events throughout history. Resulting historical significance? So far, minimal. If at some point in the future the destruction of this mosque is deemed to have been a significant turning point in the war on ISIS then by all means include it. At present it is of no particular significance and therefore there is no justification for its inclusion (under long-standing consensus). As for the criteria for inclusion, yes they need to be clarified and/or updated. But that discussion belongs at Wikipedia talk:Recent years not here. And FWIW changing the criteria just to make a point and get something included because you failed to get consensus on a Recent Year talk page is not constructive. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Looks like some serious ownership issues here. You all honestly believe that one "notable" event (Per your own criteria) took place across the entire globe in the whole of February? Seriously, that's why no-one uses this page. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:10, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

TRM, that's enough. That is nowhere near close to an actual argument. I think it's time to drop the stick and let it go. Should you have more policy- or guideline-based arguments in the near future, you can always return. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 15:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

As Derby said, the destruction of the mosque doesn't have it's own article. It's one of many mosques and other buildings that have been destroyed in the Middle East in recent years.

This - and other RY articles - link to many year articles that centre on particular countries, types of event etc. Jim Michael (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I was applying a "common sense guideline". If this "project" or whatever it is, determines that one global event occurred in February 2017, then it renders these kind of pages useless. Particularly when we have 44 deaths within the same month featured on the page. Policy or guideline? This particular page doesn't seem to use either, it has a bizarre version of notability for inclusion, and a despairingly low pageview. That all speaks for itself. If you want to preserve this as-is, fine, but you need to understand that it's running itself to death and no interest. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

If we applied similar guidelines to ITN, year articles would be full of various domestic crimes in which few or no people are killed, awards, destructions of buildings, sports events etc. that most people aren't interested in. Also, it would be a pointless duplication. You've repeatedly mentioned February, but haven't suggested any world events which happened during that month which you think should be included. Jim Michael (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not my job, you honestly think that the hundreds of nominations at ITN in February would garner just one "worldwide significant" event? Honestly? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

How about:

• 2017 Africa Cup of Nations
• 2017 Australian Open
• Malta Declaration (EU)
• 59th Annual Grammy Awards
• Ceres (dwarf planet)
• Cloudbleed
• 89th Academy Awards

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I doubt that any of those are eligible. Very few sports events are important enough - they go on 2017 in sports. We don't usually include awards or space-related events. Jim Michael (talk) 19:13, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, reading the arcane and bizarre inclusion critieria (e.g. "nine or more" sources), as you claim to ignore global awards and space events, this renders these year pages even more useless than I'd thought. Plus the fact that it's unclear to a "reader" where to go to find such information, there's an over-crowded sidebox, but honestly it now looks like we should delete these cherry-picked events and just stick with a list of lists, i.e. 2017 links to 2017 in sport. 2017 in politics etc. Because the choice currently being made is bonkers and is leading to a nominal amount of pageviews which renders this bureaucratic oversight pointless. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

It's WP articles in nine or more languages other than English (to show considerable international notability), not nine or more sources.

The box is needed to show the many articles about this year in different subjects, countries etc. Jim Michael (talk) 20:38, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I know, it's just how do our readers actually understand what is and what is not included in such prominent articles? The answer is: THEY DON'T AND THEY CAN'T SO THEY WON'T READ IT. Hence fewer page views on such prominent articles than some users' talk pages. Glad the one or two of you who "run this project" seem happy with what you've produced, but it is, frankly, shambolic. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The criteria for year articles from 2002 onwards are detailed on WP:RY - although they could be clearer and improved. There are several regular editors here, not one or two. The inclusion criteria here are very different to those at ITN, where in many cases an event is only relevant to the country in which it occurred. Jim Michael (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you've noted that three or four times. The point is that our readers, when heading for a 2017 page, wouldn't expect to see such pseudo-random collection of items with such arcane selection methods applied. It looks like an embarrassment to Wikipedia, but you have your own rules and your own group of a couple of editors maintaining it. Good luck, I hope one day you'll get more views than weak DYK. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

There's nothing random about them - they're the internationally, historically notable events of the year only. There are several of us, not a couple. If you have any specific ways of improving the project guidelines, detail them and they'll be considered. Jim Michael (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh my gosh, this is getting pathetic guys. Y'all are just bickering at each other. This is not even remotely close to reaching consensus whatever your views may be. Jim and TRM, let it go already. The constant "This page is a joke and I hope it dies" type of vibe is absurd. This isn't even a discussion. Can both you let this go already? This is so wasteful. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 05:18, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Totally correct assessment! DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:41, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. The inclusion criteria is bizarre to say the least, and making an assertion that only one event has taken place in February 2017 really is delusional. It's doing a real disservice to our readers. And I don't think anyone said "I hope it dies", from the pageviews, it already has. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:08, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man:: if you have a better idea about criteria, please post it to Wikipedia talk:Recent years, otherwise stop wasting everybody's time with your useless rambling. Thank you. — Yerpo ^Eh? 12:15, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Bin the odd guidelines being applied for which news items appear and simply use those which gained consensus for posting at ITN. After all they are a quality record of events that the community believes the reader would find interesting and useful. As for deaths, bin them altogether with this peculiar "nine languages" req, and point directly to Deaths in 2017. That way, this page would be actively useful for readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:06, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Your idea would make this page redundant. Events on recent year articles are only internationally notable ones, not all the forgettable domestic ones on ITN. The deaths on here only those of internationally notable people. It's already well-known that the full list is at Deaths in 2017. Jim Michael (talk) 19:38, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Not really, there's no single archive of a year's worth of stories run at ITN. By far the biggest problem the page has is that it does not describe its inclusion criteria anywhere for our readers, so, like me, they'd take one look at it and think "only one global event worth noting in February 2017? Seriously? This page is incomplete". And that would be a generous assessment. Similarly, the inclusion criteria for deaths makes this a silly page when it's some odd proportion of "Deaths in ....", better off either using the RDs from ITN, or simply posting the redirect. Cherry-picking based on odd criteria which our readers are unaware of is the last thing you should be doing. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

So the Juno spacecraft going into orbit around Jupiter (which is listed at 2016, and rightfully so) is of more importance than two discoveries that are of high importance to the SETI community then? However, I don't think the one event that is listed for February belongs there, but apparently each missile that North Korea test launches, and the subsequent tantrum that several other countries then methodically throw in response (including some countries that have a nuclear program themselves, and should thus not be yelling at other countries for attempting to do the same), is worthy of being included on the list. If anything, it should be the outright hypocrisy involved in the "international condemnation" that is on the list. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 20:52, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The deaths chosen aren't odd - they're the deaths of internationally notable people only. The death criteria for ITN are merely that the living thing has an article that's reasonably well-written. Jim Michael (talk) 21:04, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the deaths are odd - this decision to use "nine" Wikipedias to prove "international notability" is bizarre to say the least, but you fail to address the key point, how does the reader know what the selection criteria are for this? Your current selection criteria means any old unreferenced stubs in any old un-read Wikipedia's count towards "international notability"? I understand to find quantifiable evidence that "international notability" is present may be a challenge, but this is not the way to solve it. So please, how does the reader know who is and who is not included? And in terms of stories, what and what is not included? A brief look at the page history will adequately demonstrate that not even seasoned editors understand the point of this page. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:34, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I disagree. ITN is full of trivia and distinctively Western-centric, both of which we're trying to avoid here. The criteria were developed on the basis of experience with older year pages which to some extent still contain useless crap like "First steel bridge in Alabama was built near Lonelyville". You may disagree with our method, but your method would not be a good alternative if we're trying to build an impartial encyclopedia. — Yerpo ^Eh? 05:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Once again you're failing to address one of the main issues: how does the reader know what is included here? Why should there be just one entry for February 2017? ITN "distinctively Western-centric"? E.g. today we have stories running on Pakistan, China, Ireland, Afghanistan, Saudi and an Angolan author. The RDs are East German, Australian, British, American. That seems like a good mix to me, and one that our readers would appreciate. The fact you're claiming to use the existence of articles on other Wikipedias to establish "international notability" of deaths is bizarre, and naturally suffers its own bias as many minority Wikipedias simply don't have the editorship. And no heed is paid to quality or sourcing. How very strange. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:48, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

It's hard to prove because ITN doesn't have an archive and the selection of events is by chance not so obviously biased at the moment, but recent deaths are a good example - all are westerners. The reader can click on the talk page link and find the project page containing criteria, just as easy or easier than they can find the nominating section for ITN. — Yerpo ^Eh? 05:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

PS: since February bugs you so much, I think the Ceres news could be worthy of inclusion, the rest of your proposals are pure trivia. — Yerpo ^Eh? 06:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Have you looked at the last dozen or so listed here, 90% westerners?! And ITN posted the Saudi, the Ivorian, the Vanuatuan.... And you must realise that most non en-wiki articles are based on en-wiki, so you're simply reinforcing any bias by basing your decisions on that odd "nine Wikipedias" criterion which our readers are completely oblivious to. And most of the non en-wiki articles are appalling/unreferenced. This is an unhelpful hotchpotch of poorly chosen articles using some secret methodology, some of which are simply inexcusably bad and should not be featured, and in no way represents what our readers would expect to find in a page entitled "2017". The Rambling Man (talk) 06:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. You're missing the point of this encyclopedia. It's not "trivial" to report on the 2017 Africa Cup of Nations, that's something the readers want to see, 1/4 of a million hits in a few days in fact. Or the Academy Awards, 2 million hits over three or four days. So sorry, it's not "trivia", it's precisely what our readers are interested in and would expect to see in a page describing the major events of 2017. At the very least, this page, and similar ones, need to have a caveat at the top of each article explaining the inclusion criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Our primary mission - to educate - does not always overlap with what's popular, and decreasingly so. By criterion of what's "interesting", we should start listing (western) celebrity weddings to satisfy readers. The article Pippa Middleton had almost half a million hits around 20 June this year. Do you really think that would make sense? — Yerpo ^Eh? 13:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

No, my suggestion is to provide a list of all the stories that the community decided were (a) notable enough for inclusion on the main page and (b) of sufficient quality for our readers to gain a decent understanding of the matter in hand. I'm not sure where you got the idea that that would include Pippa Middleton's wedding. The pageviews I've referred to above are for items that appeared on the main page through community consensus. Items that appear on this list are subject to a covert and complex set of criteria to which our readers appear to be left deliberately ignorant. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

By the way, I checked the WP:5P and can safely say that "to educate" is by no means our "primary mission", it is not even mentioned there. WP:EDUCATE doesn't exist either. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:15, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

We don't include sports events that are limited to one continent. The nine non-English WP article requirement at death is only a guideline for inclusion in the Deaths section. We go against that if the person is internationally notable but has fewer articles (including heads of government/state) and if the person has enough articles but isn't internationally notable. The regular editors here do know, understand and largely agree with the inclusion criteria - the problem is that many non-regulars don't. You're right that we need to clearly tell the readers what the inclusion criteria are. A link to WP:RY should be on the article - where would be the best place to fit it in? Jim Michael (talk) 16:30, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, what do you mean "limited to one continent"? Players at the Australian Open came from Europe, Asia, North America, South America. TheAcademy Award winners came from around the globe. Please elucidate. The "nine rule" is clearly absurd and detrimental to our readers' experience of this page. Why have such an odd mid-ground between RDs on ITN and the Deaths in.... pages? It's an unnecessary and arbitrary collection of no real interest to anyone other than those who run these kind of pages. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:44, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I'm not in favor of WP:RY becoming a mirror of WP:ITN. As I see it, that section's purpose is to attract visitors by showing them that Wikipedia also covers widely reported events/topics, in the hope that stimulates them to start contributing (in a similar way that WP:FA stimulates people to write high quality content). WP:RY, on the other hand, are collections of the most important events in the world that year - as is the consensus. You may succeed in changing the consensus eventually, but I kinda doubt it with this approach. By the way, try the Wikimedia mission statement if you're confused about the movement's mission. You might also want to refresh your knowledge about what an encyclopedia (referenced by the very first pillar) is. — Yerpo ^Eh? 16:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

There's no confusion, I was talking about the purpose of Wikipedia, not WMf's mission statement, the two are not the same, so hopefully that alleviates any confusion for you there. To your former point, this page is simply not serving our readers in any way. They can't see what is being down-selected for inclusion, they can't see why obvious events, global events like tennis Opens and continental football tournaments are not included, they can't see why there's a slightly different list of deaths (with global notability generally based on Wikipedias?!!!). That's the whole point. I came to this page as an experienced editor but a reader, and found it to be completely confusing and disappointing. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

PS an encyclopaedia is where I go to find the information I'm looking for, not where I go to be "educated", that's school or university. The current approach here is to limit that ability to find what I want to know because of the arcane censoring. Hope that helps with your understanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

And you can go to Wikipedia to find the information you're looking for, but you won't find reference to everything on every page. There's selection in every step of creating an encyclopedia, and Wikipedia is not an exception. Like it or not, you're being educated about what's relevant as soon as you open one. As I said already, the guidelines are clearly and openly written, and the readers can see what is being down-selected for inclusion as well as in WP:ITN. It's just that the process is less organized because there's fewer people interested in WP:RY. People like you occasionally drop by and start shouting because they're "appalled" that their favorite actor or whatnot is not included, but their perspective is too narrow, so they just end up wasting everybody's time. — Yerpo ^Eh? 17:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Totally correct. Again. This is getting to the point where a trip to ANI might be needed to put a stop to this pointless time-wasting disruption. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 17:50, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

What's being disrupted? This is a talkpage, we're talking about the content. If you consider that disruption, feel free to start an ANI, I look forward to contributing there and discussing, amongst other things, your contributions to this discussion. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

As it seems particularly difficult to get through to you I'l try and make it as clear as possible: This thread is about whether the Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul should be included in this article. The guidelines (agreed by consensus) at WP:RY state that it must be internationally notable. The consensus of this thread so far is that it is not. You have failed to come up with any reason why it should be included under the current guidelines. Whining on and on and on and on, about whether the guidelines are appropriate has no place here. As yu ohave been told more than once, if you want the guidelines changed discuss it at WP:RY, not here. One more off-topic post and we will go to ANI. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

No, this thread has somewhat evolved, as you can read. This is not "off-topic", if you prefer I can create a new sub-header. This discussion is perfectly cromulent. If you wish to discuss this at ANI, please feel free to do so, in fact I'd encourage it as it would result in far more eyes on this project's way of doing things. Claiming my discourse to be "pointless time-wasting disruption" would be a good place to start when looking into the behaviour in this thread. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:19, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

That is a crass and insulting characterisation, you should work on that. This page is mystifying to normal readers, it's already been noted that some editors are confused by it so why shouldn't all our readers be? Please start working on a solution rather than insulting me and any "agenda" you might think I have. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The Rambling Man it's you who's been spitting at this part of the project (and, by extension, the people involved) from the start. Don't act offended now. — Yerpo ^Eh? 17:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Your mistake. No one has answered the fundamental questions here, just acted defensively and with real ownership concerns. The Rambling Man (talk)||

No, yours. Jim Michael was patiently explaining the guidelines and the idea behind them, despite you getting increasingly hostile. — Yerpo ^Eh? 18:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

No, look back. You have become hostile. I have provided what was asked of me, solutions to the problems here. You have ardently stuck to your position and considered no alternatives. You are misleading the reader and not telling him the truth. This isn't 2017 events, this is your highly constrained and limited version. Please be honest for the sake of our readers. And no, unlike disgusting football hooligans, I have not been "spitting at" anything. Your tone and language needs some serious work. At least I can have a civil discussion with Jim, unlike having to deal with your vitriol. Note, your attitude will not dissuade me. If necessary I will happily start a community-wide RFC on the purpose of this page, including discussions over the arcane (and hidden) inclusion criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:09, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The sports event limited to one continent I was referring to is the 2017 Africa Cup of Nations. The deaths aren't a mid-ground of ITN and Deaths in 2017. For ITN, the decedent only need have a reasonably well-written article and for Deaths in 2017 they only need to have articles. For RY articles, they have to have considerable international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

So is Australian Open included in January? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

If we include that one, we'd also have to include other three Grand Slams, and then a comparable number of events for every other major sport. Thus drowning this page in sports, despite the fact that there is a page 2017 in sports. That's why we limit eligibility to the Olympics and the FIFA World Cup as the truly global sports events. — Yerpo ^Eh? 18:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it would lead to a lot of arguments about which sports are international and important enough - and which events for each are important enough. Jim Michael (talk) 18:56, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

So what? It's what our readers would want to see. You are both attempting to make this something it isn't. Even Encyclopedia Britannica would include results of major global sporting events in a yearly round up. You seem to think our readers would suddenly realise all the missing events appear somewhere in a linked page? How? You are completely missing the purpose of this project. If you took ITN as the lead, there'd be no arguments, they'd already have been had. This page should be a gazetteer, not a hotchpotch collection of events and deaths that somehow falls between the gaps from the main page and the Deaths in... articles. I think you all know that, but it's hard to let go. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:09, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

And why aren't the Academy Awards notable enough for inclusion? They feature individuals from all around the planet and could hardly be described as "trivial". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:17, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The recent year articles have been run as an internationally-important-events-only project for years. Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't have a list of 2017 in ... articles like we do. The film awards are all linked on 2017 in film. Sports events are on 2017 in sports. If we had the same criteria as ITN, we'd be swamped with domestic events, including crimes, sports, awards etc. - all of which are much better located on their respective pages. Jim Michael (talk) 20:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

You all believe that the world's most prominent film festival is not an "internationally-important-event"? You all believe you'd be "swamped"? ITN isn't swamped, and the product of ITNC is quality articles that the community (not some arbitrary test criteria) believe are interesting and useful to our readers. You need to work harder on telling the readers that this is, in fact, not 2017 events, but a tiny subset that you seem to believe are more important than any others, but all the rest, including those which are actually interesting to our readers, are located at other pages, like Deaths in ... or Sports in .... With so few entries, and with them all replicated elsewhere in "X in 2017", there's no real point in this page existing. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Just did a quick look, I think if you mirrored the ITN posted articles, you'd have around 10 to 15 articles per month which would make a really good and comprehensive 2017 almanac, unlike the current completely bereft version. That's not what I'd called "swamped", just what I'd call "really useful" to our readers, but I'm beginning to get the sense that this is less about the readers and more about the desires of a few editors with some curious version of what "helping our readers find what they want to read" and translating that into "helping us decide what our readers should be allowed to find". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Most of what's on ITN aren't historically, internationally notable events. ITN is swamped, to such an extent that discussions are closed whilst ongoing - especially since they reduced the requirements for RD to merely having an article that's reasonably well written. Jim Michael (talk) 21:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

That's clearly not true, or else you would be nominating them at WP:AFD. I didn't say you had to list every nomination at ITN, just those which were posted at the main page. Please understand better. As for RD, they have notability per English Wikipedia's notability policy and have the benefit of being in good condition, unlike those selected here, some of which are utter junk. But it's clear now, this kind of page has flown under the radar for far too long, it needs exposing to the wider community and some of its arcane methodology needs wider debate rather than the handful of you who are so keen to keep it as-is. I'll formulate an RFC for Wikipedians to discuss, and you'll be able to contribute there. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Not true, because they don't have to be internationally notable to have articles or be posted at ITN. If we copied all of those which were posted at ITN to here, most of the events would not be important and international. The requirement you have at ITN that an article has to be well-written to be posted would mean that we would have to not include deaths of some heads of state or government. Jim Michael (talk) 22:19, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Those are already listed at "Deaths in ..." so you needn't worry. I would personally remove the subjective list of deaths from this page altogether and simply link to the Deaths in... page. Right now, the reader has no idea whatsoever why someone may be included or excluded from this list, which is a disservice to the encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S. your current "criteria" exlcudes heads of government anyway, see Habib Thiam for a recent example. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

You'll notice he hasn't been excluded. I could explain, but as you won't listen, that will have to wait (my pub quiz takes precedence). DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 06:42, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

So the criteria aren't stringently followed, good to know. (I didn't see that certain people get a free pass, regardless of their non-significantly-international-notability, is that included in the instructions somewhere?) The Rambling Man (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Prodigy

I see there has been some scuffling over his inclusion in this article. I would argue he is worth inclusion, since he was part of a successful musical act and met WP:RY at the time of his death, but since there have been like 3 removals and reinsertions of him I'm starting a thread here to gain consensus. Thanks Nohomersryan (talk) 02:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Exclude - he didn't have significant international notability in his own right. Jim Michael (talk) 04:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Include just because he didn't have an article on "nine Wikipedias" at the time of his death, it doesn't mean he wasn't significantly internationally notable in his own right. A lot of good work has gone into the article since its nomination at ITNC so it would be foolhardy to exclude it on such arcane grounds. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2017 (UTC)